Frank and BBF

[JDA]

Did you guys read what it says about GN'R in the site?  It says from 2000 to 2003 her toured and recorded with the new incarnation of GN'R and toured the world with them in 2002.  It also says something to the affect of for their forthcoming cd Chinese Democracy.  The key word is "their" forthcoming cd.  He's officially out and that's ok.  Frank happy to have ya!

[Adam_Guill]

we must also consider that having frank ensures that there is beard on this album. sure robin has one now, but it is weak, and we have no way of know if he did any recording post beard growth. and axl and ron's goatees don't count, because as we all know, a goatee is just a beard with low self esteem

[AxlRose4eva1]

speaking as a musician myself, so i think that makes me a fair judge of their talent. i'll see if i can break it down for you.

Bumblefoot

bumblefoot has a lot more creativity and musicality in his playing.
has a more diverse varieties of style to his playing,
shreds at a higher NPS,
can play faster than the human ear can hear.
has a lovely singing voice.
fresh pine scent
enemy of cobra

Buckethead

Wears a bucket on his head.
has rough sex with other men


there, hope that helps

Speaking as a musician myself, i really couldnt care less about shredding.  Wow Ron can play 28 nps, so i guess Francesco Fareri and Rusty Cooley were your first choices for GnR considering 33's are well documented from them.  As a musician you think youd be able to understand that speed means nothing or that BH and BBF have two different styles.  Musicality is opinion and one where when making comparisons I think popularity is an important variable.  BH's guitar alone is popular enough to get put on Gutiar Hero 2.  However, as for your "faster shredding and more NPS" it again should be noted that they play two very different styles and BH's NPS is actually not really known with many speculating it could be as high as 30, but I was only able to find a person who was able to break down a training tape.  Paus and Satriani are both only clocked in the teens but most people estimate they hit the mid 30's consistently.  So the fact that Ron can play a documented 28 nps means nothing to me.  If you need me to go into depth about alternative picking etc... i can, but seriously there comes a point where its so fast it sounds like trash and thats why most of the speed legends like to stay around 17 nps for their shreds and why Guinness got rid of the fastest guitar player record.  Anything over 15 is pretty equal sounding to me, but maybe you arent human and are some subspecies capable of picking up these notes humans cannot hear.

Guitarone ranked BH as being faster than BBF, but who cares.  Bruce Lee was forced to slow down and so are guitarists.

The fact is the "greatest" guitarist debate wages on almost every guitar website.  I rarely play guitar anymore, more into violin now, but I visit these blogs every now and then and I never see people arguing that BBF is up there with BH, whether it be http://forum.guitarherogame.com/Default.aspx?g=posts&t=13736 or http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-296147.html where some fans compare the all finger tapping BH to Hendrix and others say he is a wannabe slash.

However on BBF threads you see a ton of people who like BBF.  http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-338106.html.  However, you see lines like this, which I believe Slipdisc actually wrote,  "Like Buckethead, and all other well versed virtuosos" or "Don't get me wrong, Buckethead is amazing, but he's a freak. Thal has dropped his little oddities for now and i hope he stays in GnR for a long time." 95% of reviews are positive with the occassional "I never really listened to Ron Thal properly until tonight when I saw him at the GN'R show in Dublin. I was disapointed in him to be honest. His solo with the bumblefoot guitar was utter shit. It just didn't flow and sounded out of key in a lot of places. I just got the impression that he didn't really care or have any motivation to be playing." ( I dont get this one, but someone said it.) 

However, the thing you dont see are people ever putting him up there with the greatest guitarists ever, in fact you see things like "I saw him play with Guthrie, it was like watching a school boy face off against John McLaughlin. Guthrie emerged victorious. So he's still a guitar god. Well maybe not god. But he's up there."  Where are BH gets a lot of hate from people who know about guitar, but also a lot of people who know a lot about guitar list BH at the top of their list of guitarists all time.  Everyone who has ears and eyes for talent can say that BH's tapping is ridiculously good.  I guess I always feel that the truly amazing people are either loved the most or hated the most, I mean thats how Axl is.

However, what should seem evident to people and the reason I posted to begin with is that BBF has had it easy with GNR, its been all tours and parties.  Look at what BH and Brain had to put up with.  Who knows if BBF would have.  The honeymoon is sweet, but when youre in a band for 2 years and have no new albums (especiall a workaholic like BH who can release 13 albums in one day and sign them) and you go on tour and then the tour gets cancelled, and you still have no album and no plans for another tour, what are you supposed to do.  IMO BH and Brain put a lot more into this than Frank and BBF and therefore the ladder should not replace any of their parts if that has happened or is being tossed around.  If they added something its over now, my complaint about that was that it takes time, as long as thats over thats fine by me. (as if my opinion mattered)  You can argue all you want with nonsense, but to me that solo at the end of TWAT is BH and it would totally be wrong for him to not get credit for it.

The guitarists I enjoy Gambale, Timmons, Gambale, Slash, Finck, Eric Johnson dont go for speed.  (Btw in a list of my favorite guitarists in this band top 3 would be Finck, Slash, Izzy so neither of these guys) but Thats why I love BH cause he could do both, it is so unreal.  He is the only guitarist whose music i can play to non guitar fans and they enjoy it.  I have no clue about people you guys know, but guys who listen primarily to rap or nu rock, i can play BH's solo work and they love it.  Not to mention its pretty cool the guy released 13 albums in one day.

[Skunk]

I can't really get too into the BBF/BH debates. To me they are both amazingly talented and plenty knowledgeable and creative. I just can't think of much either of these guys couldn't do with a guitar, and so it seems to me that espescially when coupled with the other two guys on stage with them, it'll turn out great. I listen to Bumble's "guitars suck" or something like that, and i just think hell yeah, let the guy play - he knows how. I had great feelings about BH too, sure, but he's not in the band now, so i'll trust Axl and the rest of the band to do what's right. They would know better than me who 'deserves' to be on the album.
I don't doubt that Ron has been a good addition to the band.

[Adam_Guill]

i'm gonna be honest and say i didn't read your post. i'll there for assume you talked about how you killed a homeless man to get an erection and then used that erection to have sex with a wild goat. do you seriously need to write a novel every time someone makes a crack at buckethead?

bumble and bucket are both good guitarist, one of them is in guns n roses, and the other will probably never be again. guns in 2002, with buckethead, really pretty much sucked. in 2006, they rock, hard. they're a band now with a sense of unity and community, the playing is tight and soulful, consistantly. 2002 guns was a rag tag collective of studio musicians and were almost embarassing on theyre worse night, and just pretty good when they were on top of their game. the worst performance from 2006 will kick the shit out of the best 2002 preformance. buckethead was a very talented guitar player, but his attitude impaired the bands sense of self. he was an outsider before during and after his time with the band, and his presense prevented them from reaching their full potential.

he had the techincal proficientcy, but he didn't have the heart or the attitude. its something you're born with. you can't be taught to rock, it is the modern day equivilent of the warrior spirit, and you robots will never understand what it truly mean to rock

[Continental Drift]

i'm gonna be honest and say i didn't read your post. i'll there for assume you talked about how you killed a homeless man to get an erection and then used that erection to have sex with a wild goat. do you seriously need to write a novel every time someone makes a crack at buckethead?

bumble and bucket are both good guitarist, one of them is in guns n roses, and the other will probably never be again. guns in 2002, with buckethead, really pretty much sucked. in 2006, they rock, hard. they're a band now with a sense of unity and community, the playing is tight and soulful, consistantly. 2002 guns was a rag tag collective of studio musicians and were almost embarassing on theyre worse night, and just pretty good when they were on top of their game. the worst performance from 2006 will kick the shit out of the best 2002 preformance. buckethead was a very talented guitar player, but his attitude impaired the bands sense of self. he was an outsider before during and after his time with the band, and his presense prevented them from reaching their full potential.

he had the techincal proficientcy, but he didn't have the heart or the attitude. its something you're born with. you can't be taught to rock, it is the modern day equivilent of the warrior spirit, and you robots will never understand what it truly mean to rock

I generally agree with your point. 2006 GN'R blew 2002 GN'R out of the water... BUT I still think RIR III (2001) and MSG (2002) are two of the best GN'R shows ever. In fact, having seen GN'R in the New York area in 1991 (Uniondale), 1992 (Giants Stadium), 2002 (MSG) and 2006 (Hammerstein) respectively... I easily rank the 2002 MSG show as the band's best performance out of the four. There's no escaping the fact though that the MSG (2002) show was a RARE exception in a tour and era that is better off forgotten. However, at least when it comes to live performances... I can't really lay that at Buckethead's door- I thought, and seemed like many other fans also thought, that BH brought a "presence" and a multitude of "WOW" moments to the GN'R shows those days... waiting for BH solos at least for me.... was something like waiting for Slash's solos back in the day. It was a part of the concert to look forward to- not make a beer run.

Anyway, I love Axl as much as anyone, but I think GN'R's weak performances in 2002 were mostly chalked up to his being overweight, voiceless and eratic. Axl also has to shoulder the blame for the disasterous 2002 VMA performance, which seemed to just derail the tour and whatever the hell else GN'R was trying to accomplish back then from the start.

At any rate, as we hit 2007- all of that is in the past. Axl is 100% improved in all regards (as good if not better than the UYI days IMHO). Robin has stepped up his game considerably (becoming a crowd pleasing performer and THE lead guitarist of Guns N' Roses IMHO) and the overall band chemistry seems to be 1000x stronger (which requires a special thank you to Richard, BBF and Frank- all of whom have seemingly helped steady the ship considerably).

[BBF Rocks]

Ok now onto this post.? I dont know why I reply to it, but its a perfect example of what im talking about.? How am I going to get hurt.? My point about age is the level of the insults and the fact that it has been biologically and socially proven that part of the reason for adolescent rage is due to our biological impulse to have sex at puberty, but society proventing people from having sex.? Now I dont know why I expected you to actually read my post or comprehend basic simple sentences or the fact that I am joking about the level of intellect it takes to say "owned".? The fact that you use the word sonning and you are not referring to the small British town on the Thames just shows the level of your intellect and how fake you are.? Your language is fraudulant and pathetic.? The urban vernacular you use on a Guns N' Roses forum just shows what type of person you are.

i strongly suggest you refrain from judging me before you know me. my race has fuck all to do with this, so lay off the "ebonics" criticism like you are some kind of snob, and at the same time you should understand that guns n' roses were urban and dirty, so crusifying someone for using urban slang on a forum for a group that basically decended from the gutter just shows me what kind of disguisting snob you are. now onto the intellect issue. i don't see how that is relevant to what we talked about, but seeing as you obviously like to gloat and show off your so-called intellect, i feel a need to address it. i think i can make the assumption that my intellect is far superior to yours, i just don't see any point in showing it off. you have disproved your intellect too many times for me to take your comment seriously, how many times are you going to make groundless accusations and baseless posts about things you know nothing about? you spew out all these half-assed claims about musicians you haven't even listened to in deptht, let alone ever met, so how do you expect me to take you seriously anymore? afterall, your posts get dumber by the day. furthermore, it just proves my point further that the focus of this posts was mainly about my language, as you seemed to be under the assumption that you somehow had the upper-hand intellectually because i don't use this type of language in my everyday life, but as you can see i'm very much capable of it. again, you make a fool of yourself. when are you going to realize that your snobbish gloating of your non-existant intellect and your baseless and missing knowledge about bbf and buckethead will get you nowhere? just give it up, you are getting sadder by the day and i fear that if i have to keep doing this to you then your self esteem will probably be beyond repair.

[gandra]

well i like both drumers,but i don't know what did happen with brian.
Did axl say something about him?

[AxlRose4eva1]

i'm gonna be honest and say i didn't read your post. i'll there for assume you talked about how you killed a homeless man to get an erection and then used that erection to have sex with a wild goat. do you seriously need to write a novel every time someone makes a crack at buckethead?

bumble and bucket are both good guitarist, one of them is in guns n roses, and the other will probably never be again. guns in 2002, with buckethead, really pretty much sucked. in 2006, they rock, hard. they're a band now with a sense of unity and community, the playing is tight and soulful, consistantly. 2002 guns was a rag tag collective of studio musicians and were almost embarassing on theyre worse night, and just pretty good when they were on top of their game. the worst performance from 2006 will kick the shit out of the best 2002 preformance. buckethead was a very talented guitar player, but his attitude impaired the bands sense of self. he was an outsider before during and after his time with the band, and his presense prevented them from reaching their full potential.

he had the techincal proficientcy, but he didn't have the heart or the attitude. its something you're born with. you can't be taught to rock, it is the modern day equivilent of the warrior spirit, and you robots will never understand what it truly mean to rock

I think if you actually took 2 minutes to read my post you would realize that I said this exact same thing.  I never said I think BH was better for GNR.  However, if you read my post, or went to any of the sites or read the documented NPS, and techniques (which for some reason people here dont address) you would understand all i was saying is in the guitar world BH is respected by many as one of the greatest of all time, or one of the worst.  BBF is usually considered as a great guitarist, but for whatever the reason he is usually not considered in the absolute top of guitarists.  Also I said clearly I WANT BBF AND FRANK over BH and BRAIN the former is a much better fit.

Axlgurl is just totally not worth responding to, you can pm me or im me, but the need to say things one a board such as, "my race has fuck all to do with this" just proves my point.  The fact that you think you could possibly hurt my self esteem is pretty funny.  You have said nothing that shows you have any knowledge about guitar.  I have discussed their techniques, their speed, given links to discussions about these two and given my opinion about their sound and musicality noting very well that these are subjective.  So to say that what I say is baseless without addressing any facts or providing substance is just ignorant.  The funny thing is you arent even responding to the point of my post, that I think BH's parts should be kept on the album.  I knew of Ron before he got to GNR and I thought he wasnt a good fit, he proved me wrong.  He put aside a lot of his "odd behavior" and really fits with the band.  I would take Ron and Frank over BH and Brain, however, I just said I think BH and Brain are more talented, more universally accepted outside of GNR and they did a lot for GNR and shouldnt be removed from the album.  You can disagree with that point all you want.  I also think ebonics is a foolish way for people to express themselves and that words like "sonning" are nonsense, if thats the only way you can express yourself then thats fine, but do so off this message board, again pm me, or Axlrose4eva on AIM.  Your need to attack on a message board just shows cowardice and a need for approval.  Lets just keep this discussion to BBF and Frank on the album and if people think they should be. 

Also i dont know if Brain is gone, but I just dont see a way you can have two drummers, if he really is on break for his child then i really respect that, however, im guessing he feels isolated on tour having lost the guy he really connected with.  Sadly I always felt that "brain" was a hired gun and never got into the "band".  I have no evidence for that, just the way he sounded in interviews and presented himself in concert.  Still I have liked Brain as a drummer since well before he was in GNR and I will definitely listen to his other projects,.

[misterID]

Children! Children!

settle down or there will be no jello for anyone!

[BBF Rocks]

Axlgurl is just totally not worth responding to, you can pm me or im me, but the need to say things one a board such as, "my race has fuck all to do with this" just proves my point.? The fact that you think you could possibly hurt my self esteem is pretty funny.? You have said nothing that shows you have any knowledge about guitar.? I have discussed their techniques, their speed, given links to discussions about these two and given my opinion about their sound and musicality noting very well that these are subjective.? So to say that what I say is baseless without addressing any facts or providing substance is just ignorant.? The funny thing is you arent even responding to the point of my post, that I think BH's parts should be kept on the album.? I knew of Ron before he got to GNR and I thought he wasnt a good fit, he proved me wrong.? He put aside a lot of his "odd behavior" and really fits with the band.? I would take Ron and Frank over BH and Brain, however, I just said I think BH and Brain are more talented, more universally accepted outside of GNR and they did a lot for GNR and shouldnt be removed from the album.? You can disagree with that point all you want.? I also think ebonics is a foolish way for people to express themselves and that words like "sonning" are nonsense, if thats the only way you can express yourself then thats fine, but do so off this message board, again pm me, or Axlrose4eva on AIM.? Your need to attack on a message board just shows cowardice and a need for approval.?

i'm not going to sink to your level and call you a coward for no reason. nor am i going to get into this ridicilous flaming war with your desperate ass, you are a living joke on this board. just go away. i have never in my whole life claimed to know much about guitars so why the fuck would you say i did? i just defended bbf against your baseless attacks. you on the other hand engage in a debate you are doomed to lose from scratch. just go away, save yourself another humiliation.

[AxlRose4eva1]

A few home truths :~

1) This is not a 'band' record. The list of who has worked on this album over the years reads like a football team roster. <--- wrong, axl and other members have specified that this is in fact a band record.

2) This is not really a 'band', so to speak. There is money involved, and contracts. GNR 2007 is a business, not a band. Although, it is a brand. <--- wrong, how dare you call gnr a business and not a band? such stupidity, most gnr member have told us about how well the process of writing together as a band has worked.

3) This is Axl's record, one hundred percent. The twenty guys who haved worked on this record could be replaced by twenty others and it wouldn't make a dime of difference. They are all hired help, no matter who they are or how good they are. <--- "hired help"? you don't even deserve to be a fan, maybe slash was hired help for axl too. in tommy's words; either get on board or fuck off.

So, in light of the above, Frank and BBF being on the record changes nothing really and shouldn't be considered a surprise.

i added some actual truths to your post, you're welcome

Ok well I looked at Axlgurl's posts, quite a funny experience. She joined the forum 3 weeks ago and 75% of her posts have been in threads entitled "Say something about the person below you" or the classic "say something about the person above you."  I have not seen a post that reflects any knowledge whatsoever or that does not use some sort of profanity.  In case youre wondering where the other posts come from, they either are one line posts such as the classic "OMG OWNED", or the brilliant "OBAMA FOR PRESIDENT,"  or they are posts that insult members who are actually trying to discuss topics.  Since I am not one to make meaningless insults or threaten people on a message board and since you refuse to take your insulting of me off this board or to private messages I will respond to your one post with any substance, however, to be fair it does tell a member that "they dont even deserve to be a fan."

This post that claims to be "actual truths" and ridicules a member is completely wrong.  I posted a case where Geffen goes into the details about the recording agreement.  You sacastically said "we have an insider."  Well I am not an insider but I am a guy with a law degree who can read a contract and a case, the case is posted if you want to check it out.  In it Geffen and the court clearly state that Axl is the only member of Guns N' Roses, he has had opportunites to add people to the band legally and has chosen not to.  Axl has a record contract, everyone else has a contract with Axl, to me that makes this Axl's band.  Throughout the history of GNR there has been one constant, Axl.  To ridicule a poster for saying that no matter the talent of the bandmate, this is Axl's band is wrong.  This poster is a fan and has every right to their opinion, however, their opinion is backed up by the fact that Axl is the sole possessor of a recording contract, and of any trademark, and of the never-ending carousel of musicians brought in on this project.  People are not "off board" if they realize that Axl is in total control.  The rest of the band are his "employees."  I mean you could argue the definition of band and disagree with this poster (like i do) that a band is not just about control or direction, but rather musician interaction.  Instead you insult and ridicule.

I enjoy posting on message boards and discussing topics I care about and I am sure most people here do as well, but too many people feel the need to use profanity, baseless personal attacks and telling people to "get off the board" and that they "arent fans."  The truth is the people who make personal attacks rarely have anything of value to say.  I dont care how vicious someone is about a point or how adamantly they disagree with a comment, hell bash a comment all you want, but why make threats like "youre going to get hurt." 

I really just believe you are on the wrong board.  If you want to talk about the struggles black people have gone through, the talent of Eminem, discuss whether there is a God, or participate mainly in threads where you post one liners about the poster above or below you; I really think there are better boards out there for these topics.

I personally would really like to hear from Slipdisc because I read his post on UG (or at least its quoted to him) and it seems to suggest that BBF is an adequate replacement for BH and that BH was great.  On here though he seems crazily defensive about BBF being better than BH so I am a bit confused about his protests.  Also, I think that BBF's different techniques create different sounds that BH, I am curious if he thinks BBF's sound on TWAT would be better than BH's and why? To me the tonality sounds very different and I really hope it doesnt go a different direction.  Truthfully I would rather have Finck on that, because it sounds more melodic than what BBF appears to focus on.  I do think BBF is one of the few guys on earth who could fill BH's shoes and he even adds some to some of BH's parts.  Also he is much more "GNR" than BH.  Plus I feel BH deserves to be on his own since he is a show all by himself.  I dont even know in what capacity BBF recorded, however, again my main point is I really hope it wasnt extensive or rerecording all of BH's solos, because i love the leaks and dont want grand changes.

[BBF Rocks]

Ok well I looked at Axlgurl's posts, quite a funny experience. She joined the forum 3 weeks ago and 75% of her posts have been in threads entitled "Say something about the person below you" or the classic "say something about the person above you."? I have not seen a post that reflects any knowledge whatsoever or that does not use some sort of profanity.? In case youre wondering where the other posts come from, they either are one line posts such as the classic "OMG OWNED", or the brilliant "OBAMA FOR PRESIDENT,"? or they are posts that insult members who are actually trying to discuss topics.? Since I am not one to make meaningless insults or threaten people on a message board and since you refuse to take your insulting of me off this board or to private messages I will respond to your one post with any substance, however, to be fair it does tell a member that "they dont even deserve to be a fan."

your lies disguist me. how do you live with yourself knowing you are sitting there lying? that is just sad and incredibly pathetic
anyone can go through my posts and see i never insult, let alone threaten, what is wrong with you? seriously, you need help.
last night slipdisc told me in PM he actually liked my posts, and he keeps making you look like a fool, so there you go.
i'm sick of this arguing, and i'm sick of you. your arrogance shines through in every single post and it disguists me. liar.

edit: SERIOUSLY, I CAN'T GET OVER THE FACT THAT A GROWN MAN IS SITTING THERE MAKING UP BLATANT LIES ABOUT ME. HOW DOES IT FEEL TO KNOW YOU ARE A LIAR?

i've never made an insult or threat on this board and i'm sick of being harrased by this grown man online. just go away, i'm not sinking to your level by responding to you or acknowleding you ever again.

edit 2: and the fact that you went through all of my posts just to try to dig up some dirt on me and still had to lie about it pretty much proves everything i, slipdisc and a shitload of other people on this board have said about you. you are a joke on this board.

[Jimmy?]

For those who like to read into things:

Brain's website


Listen to the background music and plot out a theory. It might have something to do with GNR... or not.

 

  that's wierd....quality's not very good. Seems like it was put up there to make a point or something 

[Death Cube K]

Enough with the bullshit. Just who is GNR's drummer? Frank or Brain? Yeah yeah, they are both apart of the GNR family...(very politically correct) but we all know a band doesnt use two drummers on stage.

[bringbackadler]

Enough with the bullshit. Just who is GNR's drummer? Frank or Brain? Yeah yeah, they are both apart of the GNR family...(very politically correct) but we all know a band doesnt use two drummers on stage.

Yes. Very good question indeed.

I don't think we should rule out Adler either. Now that him and Axl seemed to have made up some, ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE !   


/bringbackadler

[Death Cube K]

I don't think we should rule out Adler either. Now that him and Axl seemed to have made up some, ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE !    beer

Of course. And I have 15 wild badgers in my trousers.

[Verasa]

No Adler.. A junkie who makes a 100% effort to get better is one thing. A junkie who chooses to stay that way I don't want to support in any way.

[ppbebe]

Brain said "we (=guns n roses) will rock the world this year" and mysteron said he would be back. well maybe the wording was a bit different.

but we all know a band doesnt use two drummers on stage.

I don't know about the future. 

[bringbackadler]

No Adler.. A junkie who makes a 100% effort to get better is one thing. A junkie who chooses to stay that way I don't want to support in any way.

Maybe you should get your facts straight before you speak, pal !

Do you have any credible proof that Steven is not clean these days.

Alot of the after affects (ex. - slurred speech) you see today are from the past not present.

Steve is beyond his demons now and is ready to face the future !

I am more than confident in Steve's ability to play w/ GN'R in the very near future !


/bringbackadler