Frank and BBF

[AxlRose4eva1]

Maybe one of the most ignorant posts i have ever seen.  I cannot someone actually tried to argue that Ron is anywhere close to as proficient as BH on guitar.  Just listen to the bootlegs, BH doesnt miss a note on anything, Ron shreds and it sounds like a mess compared to BH.  I am so sick of people saying BBF has Joe Satriani's approval, since when did Satriani become the basis of all guitar judgement.  So the guy is friends with Satriani, who cares.  BH in #8 on Guitar One's top shredders of all time http://www.randyciak.com/guitar/top_shredders_of_all_time.htm, notice how no one mentions BBF.  Guitar Player magazine consistently listed BH on their top 30 trailblazers and best experimental guitarist lists.

I have heard BBF's albums they are nu-metal schlock and impossible to get through.  I really dont get your argument or how you could say he is nearly as clean or technically proficient.  Just listen to the bad live, he misses notes all the time.  BH never missed a note.  Itll be a shame if they remove BH's parts because he played them perfectly.  BBF never has done anything close to the end of TWAT.

Also you want to know why all these guitar "masters" dont come out and talk about BH, its because hes nuts. He pisses people off cause he does things his own way.  Its the same reason a lot of Rock "masters" dont talk highly about Axl.  BBF's a better yes man im sure, but just listen to the music for yourself BH never missed a note.

[Adam_Guill]

you point out numerous times that buckethead never misses a note, which i after years of scientific research i have discovered has nothing to do with rock and roll. maybe ron missed a couple 32nd notes because he was jumping up and down and rocking out, meanwhile buckethead stand in place and wear a bucket on his head. so what has more place in guns n roses, a guy rocking out 24/7, or a guy with a bucket on his head.

for further study i've also come up with this list

1 - Bumblefoot
2 - some kind of trained squirrel
3 - ernest hemmingway
4 - Buckethead

as always,

Adam Guill

[AxlRose4eva1]

How about this then, if you cant play the notes while jumping around, stop jumping around and play the music.  If I want to see jumping around I'll go see a House of Pain reunion show.  Play the music right.  Its not even worth arguing since you can just look at their careers, even before GNR BH was well known and well respected.  His solo cds sell very well, BBF was playing in 300 person capacity night clubs in Jersey.  Popularity doesnt always mean everything, but most impartial people realize the amazing talent of BH.  Also I didnt hear many people moan and groan when BH did his solo's in fact I saw a ton of people at the concerts cheering for it.  WHen BBF came out to do solos at the concerts I went to he got Booed.  So maybe people would rather see a giant do breakdancing and play the notes right then a guy jumping around missing notes. 

[Adam_Guill]

you bring up a good point, but let me point out to you that buckethead wears a kfc bucket on his head.

also, yelling at me isn't gonna make buckethead suck any less.

plus, i bet you listen to dream theatre, which also sucks

[ColdRose]

Another stupid post cheers to you I love how most people here base there facts on fiction and for anyone that has seen GNR in 2002 and in 2006 ?like I have should no that BBF is a much better fit than bucket. aftre seing the guys numerous amounts of times this year this band is guns n roses plain ans simple.

[AxlRose4eva1]

I did like the Dream Theater/Queensyche event, ?any excuse to hear Geoff Tate I will take. ?Not a big fan of them. ?Oh, I am not arguing BH is better for GNR, he made this band look like a joke. ?I just want him on the CD because the end of TWAT is amazing. ?BH overshadowed (literally and figuratively) every other member in the band and just made Axl look more crazy. ?However, he is an amazing guitarist and helped write all these songs, if this album was released when it should have been he would probably still be in the band, also its not like replacing Paul Huge parts, its replacing one of the fastest guitarists ever parts.

BBF +Frank better for live show and better for fitting in

BH and Brain are better for recording and better all around players and wrote these song.

[polluxlm]

We know nothing about whos parts have been replaced or whatever, all i can say is i think Ron is a great addition to CD, just listen to what he added to chinese democracy (the song)

Axl says he's still on the album, enough for me.

[Jackamo!]

Zakk Wylde wrote Bucket's solo at the end of TWAT.

[Neemo]

Zakk Wylde wrote Bucket's solo at the end of TWAT.

where did that info come from

[polluxlm]

Zakk Wylde wrote Bucket's solo at the end of TWAT.

where did that info come from

The same place all the info's coming from, just have to dig

[Slipdisc]

Maybe one of the most ignorant posts i have ever seen.

The fact that you need such assbackwards bullshit to make a half assed point, shows how much you are grasping for straws. Get some perspective before turning into some sort of crybaby who, in desperate need of argumentation, decides to call people ignorant. Show me what in my previous posts was untrue or ignorant, or leave the generic provocative nonsense at the door. I merely summed up some of Ron?s amazing abilities and achievements, it?s there for everybody to verify. I can?t help it that you have no perspective on what has been going on in the virtuoso scene in the past decade.

I cannot someone actually tried to argue that Ron is anywhere close to as proficient as BH on guitar.?

Believe it or not, but many people think that Ron is technically more proficient than Buckethead. He has crazier more exotic chops, seems to play less patterns and has some skills (like ?absolute pitch?) which are a huge advantages. Next to all the other things I?ve mentioned about him, he (for what it?s freakin? worth, but you seem to hold it in high regards) recorded faster sequences than Buckethead. He is a fretless master which tells you a lot about how incredibly developed his picking hand is (for exact positioning and shifts).

Just listen to the bootlegs, BH doesnt miss a note on anything,

Buckethead misses his share of notes as well. The man is human, just like Ron. Next to all of this, Ron has every right to make Bucket?s solo his own. He doesn?t need to copy them one on one. It?s pretty weak to interpret mere stylistic differences as flaws, just to deform reality until it seems to fit with ones prejudicial bullshit.

Ron shreds and it sounds like a mess compared to BH.

Maybe you have an assbwackwards definition of a ?mess??

I am so sick of people saying BBF has Joe Satriani's approval, since when did Satriani become the basis of all guitar judgement.?

Since when is your ego inflated to the point that next to randomly calling fellow posters ignorant, you decided you were a better judge of guitar brilliance than Satriani?

So the guy is friends with Satriani, who cares.? BH in #8 on Guitar One's top shredders of all time http://www.randyciak.com/guitar/top_shredders_of_all_time.htm, notice how no one mentions BBF.?

Now I get it, you?re one of these popularity equals quality kind of types. That explains a lot. So you dismiss Satriani, but hold some list that reflects the interest of some on tempo-fixated mainstream guitar geeks as the gospel? But not only that, you totally delude yourself by using a list that (uneducated, which is illustrated by some of the other names like ?the Great Kat?) makes assumption based solely on the element ?tempo? to rate a player?s overall abilities and make some half assed point towards another? Very shallow! But hey, it?s not me introducing bullshit lists to make some sort of point and since you seem to get a kick out of them, here?s another list:

http://www.digitaldreamdoor.com/pages/best_guitar-metal.html

The difference is that the the collective that was responsible for the DreamDoor-lists, being far from perfect. Have a set of criteria, depicting popularity, of which it?s clear (by the other names mentioned) it is the more (musically) educated, less shallow and especially broader orientated one.

 

Guitar Player magazine consistently listed BH on their top 30 trailblazers and best experimental guitarist lists.

And I could show you tons of lists with Ron on them, but in the end your lists as well as mine are about as relevant as the concept of collectively establishing whether red is a nicer color than blue. What?s important is that you are educated about your likes and dislikes. That?s where you start grasping for silly straws about list, mysterious missed notes, speed and call people ignorant who where already listening to these people when you didn?t even realize you were sharing the same planet with them.

I have heard BBF's albums they are nu-metal schlock and impossible to get through.

Lol, nu-metal? Here you have a guy who explored everything in his work from nouveau flamenco, via blues, metal, punk to neo classicism, but you can only qualify it as nu-metal? Lol, you clearly haven?t heard anything.

I really dont get your argument or how you could say he is nearly as clean or technically proficient.

I know you don?t get it. That?s why it?s so assbackwards for you to call anybody ignorant.

BBF never has done anything close to the end of TWAT.

And since it?s pretty clear by now that your ignorance on BBF is encyclopedic, something tells me you are shortsighted yet again.

Also you want to know why all these guitar "masters" dont come out and talk about BH, its because hes nuts. He pisses people off cause he does things his own way.

Lol plenty of ?masters? have commented on Buckethead. Both Buckethead and BBF have earned tons of praises from fellow virtuosos. Don?t worry I had a feeling that you weren?t that well educated on Buckethead as well.

Its not even worth arguing since you can just look at their careers, even before GNR BH was well known and well respected.

Just like Bumblefoot. Don?t project your ignorance on others, we can?t help it that you were living under a rock during the past decade.

His solo cds sell very well, BBF was playing in 300 person capacity night clubs in Jersey.? Popularity doesnt always mean everything, but most impartial people realize the amazing talent of BH.?

Both Buckethead and BBF are cult heroes. They don?t attract the so called impartial crowd. People with virtuoso guitar playing on their minds go to them and neither one of them is selling out stadiums by doing so. As a matter of fact quite a lot of people seem to enjoy both players for similar reasons.

Also I didnt hear many people moan and groan when BH did his solo's in fact I saw a ton of people at the concerts cheering for it.? WHen BBF came out to do solos at the concerts I went to he got Booed.

Lol, back it up. I followed the past tour closely and saw them live too. I really can?t remember people booing Ron (at least not more than Buckethead was booed in the beginning), just increasing approval and respect. I don?t care about some sort of fantasy you have about the show you were at, it?s pretty obvious to me that you?re one of these people who only see those things that suit their wishful thinking. In that context one booing drunk person quickly becomes a whole stadium.

-PEACE-

[BBF Rocks]

Maybe one of the most ignorant posts i have ever seen.

The fact that you need such assbackwards bullshit to make a half assed point, shows how much you are grasping for straws. Get some perspective before turning into some sort of crybaby who, in desperate need of argumentation, decides to call people ignorant. Show me what in my previous posts was untrue or ignorant, or leave the generic provocative nonsense at the door. I merely summed up some of Ron?s amazing abilities and achievements, it?s there for everybody to verify. I can?t help it that you have no perspective on what has been going on in the virtuoso scene in the past decade.

I cannot someone actually tried to argue that Ron is anywhere close to as proficient as BH on guitar.?

Believe it or not, but many people think that Ron is technically more proficient than Buckethead. He has crazier more exotic chops, seems to play less patterns and has some skills (like ?absolute pitch?) which are a huge advantages. Next to all the other things I?ve mentioned about him, he (for what it?s freakin? worth, but you seem to hold it in high regards) recorded faster sequences than Buckethead. He is a fretless master which tells you a lot about how incredibly developed his picking hand is (for exact positioning and shifts).

Just listen to the bootlegs, BH doesnt miss a note on anything,

Buckethead misses his share of notes as well. The man is human, just like Ron. Next to all of this, Ron has every right to make Bucket?s solo his own. He doesn?t need to copy them one on one. It?s pretty weak to interpret mere stylistic differences as flaws, just to deform reality until it seems to fit with ones prejudicial bullshit.

Ron shreds and it sounds like a mess compared to BH.

Maybe you have an assbwackwards definition of a ?mess??

I am so sick of people saying BBF has Joe Satriani's approval, since when did Satriani become the basis of all guitar judgement.?

Since when is your ego inflated to the point that next to randomly calling fellow posters ignorant, you decided you were a better judge of guitar brilliance than Satriani?

So the guy is friends with Satriani, who cares.? BH in #8 on Guitar One's top shredders of all time http://www.randyciak.com/guitar/top_shredders_of_all_time.htm, notice how no one mentions BBF.?

Now I get it, you?re one of these popularity equals quality kind of types. That explains a lot. So you dismiss Satriani, but hold some list that reflects the interest of some on tempo-fixated mainstream guitar geeks as the gospel? But not only that, you totally delude yourself by using a list that (uneducated, which is illustrated by some of the other names like ?the Great Kat?) makes assumption based solely on the element ?tempo? to rate a player?s overall abilities and make some half assed point towards another? Very shallow! But hey, it?s not me introducing bullshit lists to make some sort of point and since you seem to get a kick out of them, here?s another list:

http://www.digitaldreamdoor.com/pages/best_guitar-metal.html

The difference is that the the collective that was responsible for the DreamDoor-lists, being far from perfect. Have a set of criteria, depicting popularity, of which it?s clear (by the other names mentioned) it is the more (musically) educated, less shallow and especially broader orientated one.

 

Guitar Player magazine consistently listed BH on their top 30 trailblazers and best experimental guitarist lists.

And I could show you tons of lists with Ron on them, but in the end your lists as well as mine are about as relevant as the concept of collectively establishing whether red is a nicer color than blue. What?s important is that you are educated about your likes and dislikes. That?s where you start grasping for silly straws about list, mysterious missed notes, speed and call people ignorant who where already listening to these people when you didn?t even realize you were sharing the same planet with them.

I have heard BBF's albums they are nu-metal schlock and impossible to get through.

Lol, nu-metal? Here you have a guy who explored everything in his work from nouveau flamenco, via blues, metal, punk to neo classicism, but you can only qualify it as nu-metal? Lol, you clearly haven?t heard anything.

I really dont get your argument or how you could say he is nearly as clean or technically proficient.

I know you don?t get it. That?s why it?s so assbackwards for you to call anybody ignorant.

BBF never has done anything close to the end of TWAT.

And since it?s pretty clear by now that your ignorance on BBF is encyclopedic, something tells me you are shortsighted yet again.

Also you want to know why all these guitar "masters" dont come out and talk about BH, its because hes nuts. He pisses people off cause he does things his own way.

Lol plenty of ?masters? have commented on Buckethead. Both Buckethead and BBF have earned tons of praises from fellow virtuosos. Don?t worry I had a feeling that you weren?t that well educated on Buckethead as well.

Its not even worth arguing since you can just look at their careers, even before GNR BH was well known and well respected.

Just like Bumblefoot. Don?t project your ignorance on others, we can?t help it that you were living under a rock during the past decade.

His solo cds sell very well, BBF was playing in 300 person capacity night clubs in Jersey.? Popularity doesnt always mean everything, but most impartial people realize the amazing talent of BH.?

Both Buckethead and BBF are cult heroes. They don?t attract the so called impartial crowd. People with virtuoso guitar playing on their minds go to them and neither one of them is selling out stadiums by doing so. As a matter of fact quite a lot of people seem to enjoy both players for similar reasons.

Also I didnt hear many people moan and groan when BH did his solo's in fact I saw a ton of people at the concerts cheering for it.? WHen BBF came out to do solos at the concerts I went to he got Booed.

Lol, back it up. I followed the past tour closely and saw them live too. I really can?t remember people booing Ron (at least not more than Buckethead was booed in the beginning), just increasing approval and respect. I don?t care about some sort of fantasy you have about the show you were at, it?s pretty obvious to me that you?re one of these people who only see those things that suit their wishful thinking. In that context one booing drunk person quickly becomes a whole stadium.

-PEACE-

oh my god, can anyone say PWND!!! hahaha
ron rocks, best addition to gnr ever! he will take the band FAR!

[Jackamo!]

Zakk Wylde wrote Bucket's solo at the end of TWAT.

where did that info come from

The same place all the info's coming from, just have to dig

Actually no- that came from an article from a while ago- back before TWAT was ever leaked.
It said Zakk wrote Bucket's solo in TWAT. I'll look for the article. 

[ARC]

A few home truths :~

1) This is not a 'band' record. The list of who has worked on this album over the years reads like a football team roster.

2) This is not really a 'band', so to speak. There is money involved, and contracts. GNR 2007 is a business, not a band. Although, it is a brand.

3) This is Axl's record, one hundred percent. The twenty guys who haved worked on this record could be replaced by twenty others and it wouldn't make a dime of difference. They are all hired help, no matter who they are or how good they are.

So, in light of the above, Frank and BBF being on the record changes nothing really and shouldn't be considered a surprise.

[BBF Rocks]

A few home truths :~

1) This is not a 'band' record. The list of who has worked on this album over the years reads like a football team roster. <--- wrong, axl and other members have specified that this is in fact a band record.

2) This is not really a 'band', so to speak. There is money involved, and contracts. GNR 2007 is a business, not a band. Although, it is a brand. <--- wrong, how dare you call gnr a business and not a band? such stupidity, most gnr member have told us about how well the process of writing together as a band has worked.

3) This is Axl's record, one hundred percent. The twenty guys who haved worked on this record could be replaced by twenty others and it wouldn't make a dime of difference. They are all hired help, no matter who they are or how good they are. <--- "hired help"? you don't even deserve to be a fan, maybe slash was hired help for axl too. in tommy's words; either get on board or fuck off.

So, in light of the above, Frank and BBF being on the record changes nothing really and shouldn't be considered a surprise.

i added some actual truths to your post, you're welcome

[Jackamo!]

Fuck off with the shit about this being all about Axl Rose.

It's a band.

[ARC]

A few home truths :~

1) This is not a 'band' record. The list of who has worked on this album over the years reads like a football team roster. <--- wrong, axl and other members have specified that this is in fact a band record.

2) This is not really a 'band', so to speak. There is money involved, and contracts. GNR 2007 is a business, not a band. Although, it is a brand. <--- wrong, how dare you call gnr a business and not a band? such stupidity, most gnr member have told us about how well the process of writing together as a band has worked.

3) This is Axl's record, one hundred percent. The twenty guys who haved worked on this record could be replaced by twenty others and it wouldn't make a dime of difference. They are all hired help, no matter who they are or how good they are. <--- "hired help"? you don't even deserve to be a fan, maybe slash was hired help for axl too. in tommy's words; either get on board or fuck off.

So, in light of the above, Frank and BBF being on the record changes nothing really and shouldn't be considered a surprise.

i added some actual truths to your post, you're welcome

You know, I meant no offence. I'm sorry if it came across that way.

I am a fan of the current GNR and I've been waiting for the album for as long as anybody...

[WARose]

well....

tommy, dizzy, robin, axl and chriss have been around since 1998 at least. that?s pretty much the contrary of "reading a football team roster"...

paul tobias is probably still working with the band and was a temporary guitarist only, until they found
the right one (richard fortus), who`s in the band now for 5 years.

brain is in the band for seven years and frank basically stepped in to avoid cancellations or conflicts of any kind, because of his family.

ron is new, that?s right. 

his influence on better and chinese democracy (life for now) is simply fantastic if you ask me. buckethead`s style is often too clean and unorganic for gnr.

[AxlRose4eva1]

Maybe one of the most ignorant posts i have ever seen.

The fact that you need such assbackwards bullshit to make a half assed point, shows how much you are grasping for straws. Get some perspective before turning into some sort of crybaby who, in desperate need of argumentation, decides to call people ignorant. Show me what in my previous posts was untrue or ignorant, or leave the generic provocative nonsense at the door. I merely summed up some of Ron?s amazing abilities and achievements, it?s there for everybody to verify. I can?t help it that you have no perspective on what has been going on in the virtuoso scene in the past decade.

I cannot someone actually tried to argue that Ron is anywhere close to as proficient as BH on guitar.?

Believe it or not, but many people think that Ron is technically more proficient than Buckethead. He has crazier more exotic chops, seems to play less patterns and has some skills (like ?absolute pitch?) which are a huge advantages. Next to all the other things I?ve mentioned about him, he (for what it?s freakin? worth, but you seem to hold it in high regards) recorded faster sequences than Buckethead. He is a fretless master which tells you a lot about how incredibly developed his picking hand is (for exact positioning and shifts).

Just listen to the bootlegs, BH doesnt miss a note on anything,

Buckethead misses his share of notes as well. The man is human, just like Ron. Next to all of this, Ron has every right to make Bucket?s solo his own. He doesn?t need to copy them one on one. It?s pretty weak to interpret mere stylistic differences as flaws, just to deform reality until it seems to fit with ones prejudicial bullshit.

Ron shreds and it sounds like a mess compared to BH.

Maybe you have an assbwackwards definition of a ?mess??

I am so sick of people saying BBF has Joe Satriani's approval, since when did Satriani become the basis of all guitar judgement.?

Since when is your ego inflated to the point that next to randomly calling fellow posters ignorant, you decided you were a better judge of guitar brilliance than Satriani?

So the guy is friends with Satriani, who cares.? BH in #8 on Guitar One's top shredders of all time http://www.randyciak.com/guitar/top_shredders_of_all_time.htm, notice how no one mentions BBF.?

Now I get it, you?re one of these popularity equals quality kind of types. That explains a lot. So you dismiss Satriani, but hold some list that reflects the interest of some on tempo-fixated mainstream guitar geeks as the gospel? But not only that, you totally delude yourself by using a list that (uneducated, which is illustrated by some of the other names like ?the Great Kat?) makes assumption based solely on the element ?tempo? to rate a player?s overall abilities and make some half assed point towards another? Very shallow! But hey, it?s not me introducing bullshit lists to make some sort of point and since you seem to get a kick out of them, here?s another list:

http://www.digitaldreamdoor.com/pages/best_guitar-metal.html

The difference is that the the collective that was responsible for the DreamDoor-lists, being far from perfect. Have a set of criteria, depicting popularity, of which it?s clear (by the other names mentioned) it is the more (musically) educated, less shallow and especially broader orientated one.

 

Guitar Player magazine consistently listed BH on their top 30 trailblazers and best experimental guitarist lists.

And I could show you tons of lists with Ron on them, but in the end your lists as well as mine are about as relevant as the concept of collectively establishing whether red is a nicer color than blue. What?s important is that you are educated about your likes and dislikes. That?s where you start grasping for silly straws about list, mysterious missed notes, speed and call people ignorant who where already listening to these people when you didn?t even realize you were sharing the same planet with them.

I have heard BBF's albums they are nu-metal schlock and impossible to get through.

Lol, nu-metal? Here you have a guy who explored everything in his work from nouveau flamenco, via blues, metal, punk to neo classicism, but you can only qualify it as nu-metal? Lol, you clearly haven?t heard anything.

I really dont get your argument or how you could say he is nearly as clean or technically proficient.

I know you don?t get it. That?s why it?s so assbackwards for you to call anybody ignorant.

BBF never has done anything close to the end of TWAT.

And since it?s pretty clear by now that your ignorance on BBF is encyclopedic, something tells me you are shortsighted yet again.

Also you want to know why all these guitar "masters" dont come out and talk about BH, its because hes nuts. He pisses people off cause he does things his own way.

Lol plenty of ?masters? have commented on Buckethead. Both Buckethead and BBF have earned tons of praises from fellow virtuosos. Don?t worry I had a feeling that you weren?t that well educated on Buckethead as well.

Its not even worth arguing since you can just look at their careers, even before GNR BH was well known and well respected.

Just like Bumblefoot. Don?t project your ignorance on others, we can?t help it that you were living under a rock during the past decade.

His solo cds sell very well, BBF was playing in 300 person capacity night clubs in Jersey.? Popularity doesnt always mean everything, but most impartial people realize the amazing talent of BH.?

Both Buckethead and BBF are cult heroes. They don?t attract the so called impartial crowd. People with virtuoso guitar playing on their minds go to them and neither one of them is selling out stadiums by doing so. As a matter of fact quite a lot of people seem to enjoy both players for similar reasons.

Also I didnt hear many people moan and groan when BH did his solo's in fact I saw a ton of people at the concerts cheering for it.? WHen BBF came out to do solos at the concerts I went to he got Booed.

Lol, back it up. I followed the past tour closely and saw them live too. I really can?t remember people booing Ron (at least not more than Buckethead was booed in the beginning), just increasing approval and respect. I don?t care about some sort of fantasy you have about the show you were at, it?s pretty obvious to me that you?re one of these people who only see those things that suit their wishful thinking. In that context one booing drunk person quickly becomes a whole stadium.

-PEACE-

Haha I see you respond to every point but never bring about any information whatsoever.  I think its funny that you ever try to argue that BBF is nearly as well accepted as BH.  Ok, how about this since you claim you have them, show me some lists that have BBF on them.  I was at the Cleveland show where it was the worst.  Ron definitely got booed and in 2002 at the show there were almost as much Buckethead chants as GNR chants.  There was a very large audience at the front wearing KFC buckets on their head.  Buckethead misses a lot less notes, i mean seriously you can view the videos on youtube, just go look at them and listen.

Also if you read any of the articles by masters about Buckethead most jsut deal with the fact that he is weird and odd, very few of them actually comment on his proficiency, in fact most articles about how great he is seem to have been writting when BH was in his last teens and just sending demos out to different guitar magazines.

You are right that BBF did a lot of experimental stuff, however, I found that sounded like bad Mr. Bungle and i really had no desire to listen to it.  This guys music has been compared to "Weird Al Yankovich" more than once.

How about this, show me a legitimate magazine or reviewer who liked BBF's music.  They may exist, i dont think ive ever stumbled upon them.  You wrote that entire message and actually managed to say nothing.

[sic.]

For those who like to read into things:

Brain's website


Listen to the background music and plot out a theory. It might have something to do with GNR... or not.