2007 Baseball Season is about to start--talk about anything you want

[D]

I do hate how everyone has convicted him already in the media.? Pettitte admitting it though and others gives the Mitchell report so much credibility though that it looks really bad for Clemens.


Someone needs to give mark Prior and Kerry Wood some HGH though so they can finally pitch and get off the DL.

[COMAMOTIVE]

I do hate how everyone has convicted him already in the media.? Pettitte admitting it though and others gives the Mitchell report so much credibility though that it looks really bad for Clemens.


Someone needs to give mark Prior and Kerry Wood some HGH though so they can finally pitch and get off the DL.

Prior would hurt his shoulder injecting it

[sandman]

i honestly don't see the outrage in the media. i see alot of people asking why is he dodging the issue and stating he will address it when the time is right. why wait if you have nothing to hide. if you are 100% clean, there is no reason to hide.

the media is significantly less outraged than they are with Bonds. and he is on the same level as a barry bonds.

i think it's fair to expect him to address the issue first hand. he's maybe the greatest pitcher of all time, he played in major baseball towns, and he was a critical piece of a team that won a world series when he was allegedly juicing.

[pilferk]

Whether or not Clemens ever used steroids (and if I was forced to bet, I would say yes), I don't think it had a tremendous impact on his career.

First thing, people always point to the resurgence in Toronto.  The truth was that his resurgence was in Boston.  The 2nd half of the '96 season he was lights out.  Not unusual for a player going into free agency.  Also, I attribute his career years in Toronto as a just a player that was more comfortable out of the spotlight and did not respond as well to the Boston/NY media scrutiny.   

His first 2 years in NY were arguably worse than his bad years in Boston (1993-1995) when he was battling nagging injuries.

So, bottom line, the only parts of his career which appear suspicious to me are his last 2 years in Houston (and even then, probably not, as he was just a 5-6 inning pitcher) and his playoff performces in 2000 against the Mariners and the Mets when he was topping out at 99 mph.   Not enough to taint his career, IMO.

I agree, 100%, with the above..

If I HAD to bet, life depending on it, I'd bet he used.  But since I don't have to do that...I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

On the "suspicious parts", again, I agree...but can see how they could be ability, over substance, too.

[pilferk]

i honestly don't see the outrage in the media. i see alot of people asking why is he dodging the issue and stating he will address it when the time is right. why wait if you have nothing to hide. if you are 100% clean, there is no reason to hide.

I explained why he's being cautious.  Why does he have to explain on anyone else's timetable but his?  He's not "dodging the issue"...if he were doing that he'd simply say no comment and disappear into the woodwork.  He's saying he needs time to address the issue with caution, in a serious manner.

Again, if he's thinking of SUING for slander or libel, that's one good reason to do exactly what he's doing because you don't try the case in the court of public opinion...and if you do, judges tend to get pissed off.

the media is significantly less outraged than they are with Bonds. and he is on the same level as a barry bonds.

i think it's fair to expect him to address the issue first hand. he's maybe the greatest pitcher of all time, he played in major baseball towns, and he was a critical piece of a team that won a world series when he was allegedly juicing.

"Less outraged"?  Maybe.  But they've still basically tried and convicted him.

It's not "fair" to expect him to do anything but what's best for him, personally, professionally, and legally and for his family.  We, as the public, WANT more than that, but that's a different animal, entirely.

[pilferk]

Another good article on the subject:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3162258

[sandman]

the reality is that there IS a court of public opinion. and he's hurting his chances of making it into the HOF by letting this linger. which i think is a disservice to his true fans.

[pilferk]

the reality is that there IS a court of public opinion. and he's hurting his chances of making it into the HOF by letting this linger. which i think is a disservice to his true fans.

A court which he "owes" nothing to, and shouldn't weigh more heavily than the ACTUAL courts.  Just because the "jury" in the court of public opinion clammers for him to speak up doesn't mean he has to, doesn't mean he should, and doesn't mean it's in his best interests to do so.  The court of public opinon doesn't have Roger's best interests at heart...they have their own curiosity, and a thirst for salacious information, as their primary concern.  I'd guess Roger doesn't feel he has the luxury of giving in to their hoots and hollars, at the risk of harming his reputation or legal chances.

As for HOF chances...unless I miss my guess, he's got about 5 years or so before his name will be on a ballot.  Seems to me he has quite awhile to address the allegations and put the voters minds at ease.  As for his "true fans".....I'd wager most Clemens fans have a little more patience than 1 week will have exhausted.  Maybe that's giving them too much credit...I don't know.  Maybe my perspective is a bit warped (coming from a guy who's patiently waited more than a decade for his favorite band to release another album...I'd say it's a fair accusation to make).  But that's what I think.

[The Dog]

WOW! 

Schilling to Rocket: Give back Cy Youngs

By JIMMY GOLEN, AP Sports Writer Thu Dec 20, 7:41 AM ET

BOSTON - Boston Red Sox pitcher Curt Schilling called on Roger Clemens to give up the four Cy Young Awards he's won since 1997 if he can't clear his name from allegations that he used steroids to prolong and enhance his career.

"If he doesn't do that then there aren't many options as a fan for me other than to believe his career 192 wins and three Cy Youngs he won prior to 1997 were the end," Schilling wrote Wednesday in his blog, 38pitches.com. "From that point on the numbers were attained through using (performance-enhancing drugs). Just like I stated about Jose (Canseco), if that is the case with Roger, the four Cy Youngs should go to the rightful winners, and the numbers should go away if he cannot refute the accusations."

Schilling noted in the 3,200-word posting that he was a fan of the seven-time Cy Young Award winner who owed much of his success to a stern talking-to he received from Clemens when Schilling was a young pitching prospect.

"His `undressing' of me and lecture were a major turning point," Schilling said. "I've always respected his career accomplishments and regarded him as the greatest pitcher to ever play the game."

But, having called on Canseco to give up his 1988 AL MVP award, and noting also the unrefuted evidence against Barry Bonds, Schilling acknowledged he could not avoid questioning Clemens' accomplishments as well.

"Can you separate what Barry is accused of from what Roger is accused of?" Schilling said. "If ... both of these men end up being caught, what does that say about this game, us as athletes and the future of the sport and our place in it? The greatest pitcher and greatest hitter of all time are currently both being implicated, one is being prosecuted, for events surrounding and involving the use of performance enhancing drugs. That (stinks). ... The sport needs fixing."

Clemens was the biggest name in the report by former Senate Majority Leader George Mitchell that detailed the widespread use of performance-enhancing drugs in baseball. Clemens has denied using performance-enhancing substances.

The Rocket's last four Cy Young Awards came in 1997, 1998, 2001 and 2004. Many of the allegations against Clemens in the Mitchell Report came from former trainer Brian McNamee, though none pertain to 1997 or 2004. Mitchell wrote McNamee said he injected Clemens with steroids in 1998 while with the Toronto Blue Jays, and steroids and human growth hormone in 2000 and 2001, while with the New York Yankees.

Schilling commended those who've apologized for using performance-enhancing drugs, and called on everyone accused to prove their innocence or apologize for their mistakes.

"The world is full of good to great people that have made mistakes of this magnitude or worse," Schilling wrote. "These guys made mistakes, and I do mean mistakes. They didn't accidentally do this, this was a conscious decision with far reaching implications and they should be held accountable."

While calling Canseco's "entire career, all of it, is a sham" and saying "he was never in his life a major league player," Schilling also acknowledged that many of Canseco's claims about other steroid users have been corroborated.

"He has broken the flood gates on a topic that went unspoken on for far too long," Schilling said.

The runners-up in Clemens' last four Cy Young-winning years were Randy Johnson (1997 and 2004), Pedro Martinez (1998) and Mark Mulder (2001).

Schilling was among those who testified in March 2005 to a U.S. House committee investigating steroids, along with Mark McGwire, Sammy Sosa and Rafael Palmeiro. The same committee has scheduled hearings for Jan. 15.

Clemens has not been asked to attend, though it's possible that the committee could decide to ask Clemens or other players to appear that day ? or at a future hearing, if there is one.

[freedom78]

The dog ate it? Closer's canine reportedly chews on history

The baseball from the final out of the 2007 World Series is at Jonathan Papelbon's home in Hattiesburg, Miss., according to the Hattiesburg American.

Well, part of it is.

The rest? You should ask the Boss.

If he could talk, he might say it was delicious. But the most he'll say is "woof."

"Boss," you see, is Jonathan Papelbon's dog. Boss likes to play with baseballs. And Boss found the baseball that Red Sox catcher Jason Varitek gave the closer after he struck out the Rockies' Seth Smith to clinch Boston's second World Series title in four years, the newspaper reported.

And Papelbon was left with a common excuse for not doing one's homework to explain what happened to a historic baseball artifact.

"My dog ate it," Papelbon told the newspaper. "He plays with baseballs like they are his toys. His name is Boss. He jumped up one day on the counter and snatched it. He likes rawhide. He tore that thing to pieces.

"I'll keep what's left of it," he told the paper.

After the 2004 World Series, the Red Sox and first baseman Doug Mientkiewicz haggled over custody of the ball that produced the final out of the team's Series championship in 86 years. Both sides eventually decided to give the ball to the National Baseball Hall of Fame in Cooperstown, N.Y.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3163105
***********************************************************************************

As a Cubs fan, I'm gonna tell all you Bostonians something you probably already know.  This is exactly the kind of shit that starts up a curse!  I don't give a damn how good your team is.  You're now totally fucked for a long while, because of this.  I don't know if it'll be Manny's diva attitude, Big Papi's hamstring, or a roid-raged Clemens shooting up the clubhouse to get back at Schilling.  But mark it down.  The year you're looking for on your calendars is 2093. 

[faldor]

The dog ate it? Closer's canine reportedly chews on history

The baseball from the final out of the 2007 World Series is at Jonathan Papelbon's home in Hattiesburg, Miss., according to the Hattiesburg American.

Well, part of it is.

The rest? You should ask the Boss.

If he could talk, he might say it was delicious. But the most he'll say is "woof."

"Boss," you see, is Jonathan Papelbon's dog. Boss likes to play with baseballs. And Boss found the baseball that Red Sox catcher Jason Varitek gave the closer after he struck out the Rockies' Seth Smith to clinch Boston's second World Series title in four years, the newspaper reported.

And Papelbon was left with a common excuse for not doing one's homework to explain what happened to a historic baseball artifact.

"My dog ate it," Papelbon told the newspaper. "He plays with baseballs like they are his toys. His name is Boss. He jumped up one day on the counter and snatched it. He likes rawhide. He tore that thing to pieces.

"I'll keep what's left of it," he told the paper.

After the 2004 World Series, the Red Sox and first baseman Doug Mientkiewicz haggled over custody of the ball that produced the final out of the team's Series championship in 86 years. Both sides eventually decided to give the ball to the National Baseball Hall of Fame in Cooperstown, N.Y.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3163105
***********************************************************************************

As a Cubs fan, I'm gonna tell all you Bostonians something you probably already know.? This is exactly the kind of shit that starts up a curse!? I don't give a damn how good your team is.? You're now totally fucked for a long while, because of this.? I don't know if it'll be Manny's diva attitude, Big Papi's hamstring, or a roid-raged Clemens shooting up the clubhouse to get back at Schilling.? But mark it down.? The year you're looking for on your calendars is 2093.?

We already overcame an 86 year curse to win 2 World Series in 4 years, so BRING IT ON!!!

[The Dog]

86 years more of darkness...  hehe

i don't think so, they are too good of a team.

no comments on Schillings remarks for Roger? 

[D]

Words cant express how much I hate the Red Sox.......................

[sandman]

the reality is that there IS a court of public opinion. and he's hurting his chances of making it into the HOF by letting this linger. which i think is a disservice to his true fans.

A court which he "owes" nothing to, and shouldn't weigh more heavily than the ACTUAL courts.? Just because the "jury" in the court of public opinion clammers for him to speak up doesn't mean he has to, doesn't mean he should, and doesn't mean it's in his best interests to do so.? The court of public opinon doesn't have Roger's best interests at heart...they have their own curiosity, and a thirst for salacious information, as their primary concern.? I'd guess Roger doesn't feel he has the luxury of giving in to their hoots and hollars, at the risk of harming his reputation or legal chances.

As for HOF chances...unless I miss my guess, he's got about 5 years or so before his name will be on a ballot.? Seems to me he has quite awhile to address the allegations and put the voters minds at ease.? As for his "true fans".....I'd wager most Clemens fans have a little more patience than 1 week will have exhausted.? Maybe that's giving them too much credit...I don't know.? Maybe my perspective is a bit warped (coming from a guy who's patiently waited more than a decade for his favorite band to release another album...I'd say it's a fair accusation to make).? But that's what I think.

what do the ACTUAL courts have to do with this???

i guess i should have been more clear....the court of public opinion INCLUDES the HOF voters. many of them have already said they will not vote for Clemens in light of these allegations.

can we expect them to change their minds just based on hearing Clemens deny it for the next 5 years? i don't think so. they'll never forget that he waited (1 week and counting) to personally address it.

[sandman]

another good article...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22336218/

[pilferk]

what do the ACTUAL courts have to do with this???

He's accused of possession and use of a controlled substance (steroids). Thats a FEDERAL crime, FYI. Comments on that could have a pretty direct impact on actual criminal charges against him and ANY comments should be both taken seriously, and run past/through your attorney until you're SURE there are either no charges forthcoming, or you've talked to federal investigators already.  It's not like HGH, where it's not consdered a FEDERAL crime to possess or use the stuff.  HGH is regulated by the individual states, and penalties are usually (though not always...again, depends on the state) in the range of a class 3 misdemeanor.  Not so with Steroids.  And I don't think Roger really relishes that thought of spending his retirement in a federal pen....so he'll smartly do what's best for him and his family in that regards.  Looks like it, so far, anyway.

In addition, if he's considering taking legal action because he considers the allegations slander/libel...that, too, comes into play.

THATS what the ACTUAL courts have to do with this.  As I've explained at least twice now.

i guess i should have been more clear....the court of public opinion INCLUDES the HOF voters. many of them have already said they will not vote for Clemens in light of these allegations.

can we expect them to change their minds just based on hearing Clemens deny it for the next 5 years? i don't think so. they'll never forget that he waited (1 week and counting) to personally address it.

I understand who you think "the court of public opinion" includes.  My point is you don't have to satisfy that court as quickly as IT demands to be satisfied.  That's like saying a man accused of murder has a week to prove to the country he's innocent or he's stoned to death.  Rushing to judgement is neither fair, nor warrented.  And while I've no doubt the writers might run there right along with the masses, I'm sure they'd be just as quick to do an about face if evidence comes to light that they're incorrect.  Again, witness the case of the Duke Lacross players.  Different situations, to be sure, but somewhat similar reactions by the press....who were calling for (and for a short time actually GOT) the disbanding of Duke's team, etc, etc. 

And I'm sorry, I call bullshit.  I don't think the writers, in 5 years, will remember that it took Clemens over a week to directly respond to allegations, provided he does,eventually respond with compelling evidence clearing his name.  That's preposterous, and a supposition born, I think, simply from you wanting quick answers rather than any form of objective reasoning.

[pilferk]

another good article...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22336218/

Thanks for the fine example of exactly what I was talking about in the way the media wants to handle this.  It really IS a great article....in showing their rush to judgement (on Clemens) and their thirst for salacious, inflamatory informration and "vengance" (with the semantic nitpicking of Pettite's apology).

 

Edit: Oh, and merry christmas everyone.  I'm gone until after Xmas.....see you all then! Hope you all get what you want from Santa!

[faldor]

86 years more of darkness...? hehe

i don't think so, they are too good of a team.

no comments on Schillings remarks for Roger??

Schilling loves to talk.  If those comments came from anyone else I'd be surprised, but he just can't keep his mouth shut, which he should've done in my opinion.

[sandman]

pilferk - it's tough to prove that something DID NOT happen.

this is all he said she said. therefore, there will be no charges brought against him.

it doesn't make sense to accuse the media of a "rush to judgement," and then assume that that SAME MEDIA will be forgiving and vote him in.

and i'll say this AGAIN, i do not care if clemens ever addresses the issue. i'll be happy for him if he is able to prove he didn't do it. so i'm not sure why you accuse ME of "wanting quick answers."

but deep down inside you believe he cheated. so i don't understand why you expect NON-FANS to be so understanding of Clemens' approach.? ?

[sandman]

To review, here are the damning portions of the Mitchell report as they relate to Clemens:

Canseco told members of my investigative staff that he had numerous conversations with Clemens about the benefits of Deca-Durabolin and Winstrol and how to "cycle" and "stack" steroids.

Clemens said that he was not able to inject himself, and he asked for McNamee's help. Later that summer, Clemens asked McNamee to inject him with Winstrol, which Clemens supplied.

McNamee injected Clemens approximately four times in the buttocks over a several-week period with needles that Clemens provided. Each incident took place in Clemens's apartment at the SkyDome.

During the 1998 season (around the time of the injections), Clemens showed McNamee a white bottle of Anadrol-50.386 Clemens told McNamee he was not using it but wanted to know more about it. McNamee told Clemens not to use it.

According to McNamee, from the time that McNamee injected Clemens with Winstrol through the end of the 1998 season, Clemens's performance showed remarkable improvement. During this period of improved performance, Clemens told McNamee that the steroids "had a pretty good effect" on him. McNamee said that Clemens also was training harder and dieting better during this time.

In 2000, the Yankees hired McNamee as the assistant strength and conditioning coach under Jeff Mangold. According to McNamee, the Yankees hired him because Clemens persuaded them to do so.

McNamee obtained Radomski's telephone number from Jason Grimsley. McNamee wanted to buy a Lexus, and Radomski had a connection with a Lexus dealer.

According to McNamee, during the middle of the 2000 season Clemens made it clear that he was ready to use steroids again. During the latter part of the regular season, McNamee injected Clemens in the buttocks four to six times with testosterone from a bottle labeled either Sustanon 250 or Deca-Durabolin that McNamee had obtained from Radomski. McNamee stated that during this same time period he also injected Clemens four to six times with human growth hormone. On each occasion, McNamee administered the injections at Clemens's apartment in New York City.

According to McNamee, Clemens advised him in August 2001 that he was again ready to use steroids. Shortly thereafter, McNamee injected Clemens with Sustanon or Deca- Durabolin on four to five occasions at Clemens's apartment.

McNamee was not retained by the Yankees after the 2001 season. After that season, Clemens never again asked McNamee to inject him with performance enhancing substances, and McNamee had no further discussions with Clemens about such substances. McNamee stated that Clemens did not tell him why he stopped asking him to administer performance enhancing substances, and McNamee has no knowledge about whether Clemens used performance enhancing substances after 2001.

In October 2006, after the Los Angeles Times reported that the names of Clemens and McNamee were among those that had been redacted from an affidavit in support of a search warrant for the residence of Jason Grimsley as allegedly involved with the illegal use of performance enhancing substances, Clemens was reported to have said: "I'll continue to use Mac [McNamee] to train me. He's one of a kind."