2007 Baseball Season is about to start--talk about anything you want

[faldor]

this report is BS.

i've heard a few newspaper reporters say that they would not even be able to put this in print if it was their story. too much second hand information.

not valid at all. and if all these players did use steroids....some of them should get their money back.?

Listen to David Justice's denial on The Herd (the link is on espn.com, now).? It pretty much sums up the issues in a microcosm.

Again, personally, I don' t find the word of drug dealers looking to get out of trouble to be overwhelming evidence of anything......

I'm sure most of the guys listed in the report are going to vehemently deny they did anything wrong.? That doesn't necessarily mean we should trust them.? I just don't see the point in these guys lying about who was doing steroids or HGH.? Who really cares of David Justice was juicing?? He's long since retired.? As are other guys on that list.? And there are plenty of current players on the list as well.? Call me naive, but I don't see how it would benefit anyone to just randomly throw guys names out there.? Where there's smoke, there's usually fire.

I'm taking it you didn't listen to his denial.

Give it a listen.

His point (and it's a good one) is that if he was using HGH during the time frame discussed, he should be getting his money back.

His numbers went WAy down in '01 and '02 AND his groin injury was chronic and reoccurring...the things HGH are supposed to help with.

There's other points in there, too.

Again, all this is now is a game of "he said, she said".? ?Both have reasons to lie.? Exactly why the report isn't compelling.

I heard the denial, talking about how he doesn't like needles and how his numbers went down.  I didn't read the part of the report pertaining to him so I don't know when and what he supposedly did, but pointing out injuries and a decrease in #'s doesn't seem like too solid a defense to me.  I mean are steroids/HGH 100% guaranteed to make you heal and make you a better player?  I know that's the objective, but nothing in life is guaranteed, maybe he should get his money back.

[faldor]

From the AP,

Andy Pettitte admitted Saturday to using HGH on two occasions back in 2002.
"If what I did was an error in judgment on my part, I apologize," Pettitte said in a statement released by his agent. "I accept responsibility for those two days." Pettitte is admitting that former trainer Brian McNamee's statements in the Mitchell Report were accurate, even though he must know he's burying good friend Roger Clemens in the process. If McNamee was telling the truth about Pettitte's usage, then why should anyone believe he's lying about personally injecting Clemens with steroids?

[tim_m]

I'm glad Andy is man enough to admit this and admit what he did was in error. I wish he hadn't use HGH at all but i respect him for admitting he did so and that it was wrong. I honestly believe he did it to heal faster not to gain a competitive edge like many others did.

[freedom78]

From the AP,

Andy Pettitte admitted Saturday to using HGH on two occasions back in 2002.
"If what I did was an error in judgment on my part, I apologize," Pettitte said in a statement released by his agent. "I accept responsibility for those two days." Pettitte is admitting that former trainer Brian McNamee's statements in the Mitchell Report were accurate, even though he must know he's burying good friend Roger Clemens in the process. If McNamee was telling the truth about Pettitte's usage, then why should anyone believe he's lying about personally injecting Clemens with steroids?

When did MLB ban HGH?  If it wasn't banned back then, it's not too big a deal, though I do appreciate him manning up and admitting his use. 

Of course, there are legitimate medical reasons for using such things (and I'm sure that I don't know them all).  I wouldn't be surprised if some rehab processes took advantage of such substances, either.

[D]

Andy Pettite basically buried his best friend Roger clemens.

Now he validates everything McNamme said.

[tim_m]

From the AP,

Andy Pettitte admitted Saturday to using HGH on two occasions back in 2002.
"If what I did was an error in judgment on my part, I apologize," Pettitte said in a statement released by his agent. "I accept responsibility for those two days." Pettitte is admitting that former trainer Brian McNamee's statements in the Mitchell Report were accurate, even though he must know he's burying good friend Roger Clemens in the process. If McNamee was telling the truth about Pettitte's usage, then why should anyone believe he's lying about personally injecting Clemens with steroids?

When did MLB ban HGH?? If it wasn't banned back then, it's not too big a deal, though I do appreciate him manning up and admitting his use.?

Of course, there are legitimate medical reasons for using such things (and I'm sure that I don't know them all).? I wouldn't be surprised if some rehab processes took advantage of such substances, either.

It wasn't banned until 2005 long after he last used it.

[GypsySoul]

Andy Pettite basically buried his best friend Roger clemens.

Now he validates everything McNamme said.

Bullshit.

Pettitte more than likely spoke with Clemens BEFORE he gave that statement and told him EXACTLY what his statement was going to say.

What Pettitte admitted to doing was NOT against any rules AT THAT TIME so he can NOT be punished for it and HE AND EVERYONE ELSE KNOWS THAT!!!

IMO, Since there is ZERO HARD PROOF that Clemens did what he is being accused of, he should stick to his guns and deny everything and sue Mitchell and McNamee for DEFAMATION OF CHARACTER!!!     

[Axl4Prez2004]

Hmm, I've been thinkin' about all this stuff.  If it's just "he said she said," you'd think it wouldn't hold up in court.

That said, Major League Baseball is the bad guy in my eyes.  Of course some athletes will push the envelope trying to "get an edge," but MLB should have done something about what was going on for years.  Now, was it the MLB owners or the MLB players' union who was more at fault?  Right now, I'd have to say the players' union.  Drug testing should never, ever, ever, have been a "bargaining chip."  That's just wrong. 

All that said, this new report doesn't change my opinion of Roger Clemens as a pitching talent.  Talented yes, but tainted, omg yes.  Professional athletes do not get better in their late 30's and 40's without "a little help from their friends."  (yeah, the Beatles kind of friends) 

The sad part about all this is that it unfairly shines the light on those who new this particular informant or those who knew those who knew him.  Guys like Brady Anderson, Sammy Sosa, etc. probably had different suppliers. 

Wally Joyner!  God, he was a super-hero to me as a 12 year old kid.  This stuff is so f'ing sad.  To think all of your cherished memories were a charade.  It's just terrible.

F'ing baseball.  How hard is it to get these a-holes to just piss in a cup, give a couple ounces of blood and a hair sample every week (off-season AND on?)   Then, just save the stuff like it's CSI.  Also, get these guys' HGH baselines.  Monitor weekly and ensure the public these bastards are playing on a level ballfield.

Sorry about my negativity but it's just so damn disappointing. 

[GypsySoul]

All that said, this new report doesn't change my opinion of Roger Clemens as a pitching talent.  Talented yes, but tainted, omg yes.  Professional athletes do not get better in their late 30's and 40's without "a little help from their friends."  (yeah, the Beatles kind of friends) 


Sorry about my negativity but it's just so damn disappointing. 

Tainted??  Disappointing?? Why???  I'm not picking on you personally but that just doesn't fly.

Just like some peoples saying that this would explain Clemens throwing the broken bat at Piazza.  OH FUCKIN PLEASE!!!!  Rocket was INFAMOUS for throwing at peoples and playing 'dirty' long before he threw that bat at that sissy Piazza!!!  If he does it while he's playing on your team, he's innocent and his actions misunderstood.  If he does it when he's playing for another team then he's an asshole.

Players have being doing all sorts of shit to gain an advantage since the game came into existence.  Gaylord Perry is in the Hall of Fame and deservedly so!!!

Yes, using steroids and shit like that is wrong and harmful (even deadly) and should be outlawed in the game.  BUT unless they have hard evidence that someone "used" during the time it was against the rules to do so, then their names should NOT have been included.   

IMO, people like Mitchell and McNamee had an agenda and are the ones who should be bashed by the media and baseball fans!!!

[pilferk]

Why aren't they reputable?? I haven't been reading too much of the commentary in the media, so what's been established about these two that makes them lack credibility.

One has axes to grind with former players, management, etc.

One has lied to federal investigators in the past, and to LOTS of other people, including the press, MLB, and MLB teams. 

Both are under federal investigation for dealing illegal substances, and "cooperated" with federal investigators, and gave up most of the info in the Mitchell report to them (which they then reiterated to the Mitchell investigators....because, lets face it, they're not going to tell them they LIED to the feds) as part of amnesty/reduced charges/plea deals.

[pilferk]

I heard the denial, talking about how he doesn't like needles and how his numbers went down.? I didn't read the part of the report pertaining to him so I don't know when and what he supposedly did, but pointing out injuries and a decrease in #'s doesn't seem like too solid a defense to me.? I mean are steroids/HGH 100% guaranteed to make you heal and make you a better player?? I know that's the objective, but nothing in life is guaranteed, maybe he should get his money back.

Right, so in the "he said, she said" you're choosing to believe the confirmed drug dealers over an accused (and unproved) drug user.

Your choice.

But knowing what I know of HGH, and knowing what I know of it's effectiveness in treatment (regardless of other effects), I can say I doubt he'd have continued to have that chronic groin injury for 2 years, forcing, basically, him to retire if he'd been using HGH continually over that time frame.  You're right.  It's not 100% effective.  But neither is it 0% effective.  It's not an "all or nothing" type of treatment.  It's not a "you get 100% benefits or 0% benefits".

His denial makes a whole lot of sense.  And his account of the "encouter" with Mac jives with the ones other players are sharing, now.

[pilferk]

Andy Pettite basically buried his best friend Roger clemens.

Now he validates everything McNamme said.

See, I disagree. He validated HIS situation.

But there's enough evidence coming forward that at least SOME of what's in the report is erroneous.  Whether on purpose of through faulty recollection, we'll never know.

Another reason why "he said, she said" isn't particularly compelling.

[pilferk]

Hmm, I've been thinkin' about all this stuff.? If it's just "he said she said," you'd think it wouldn't hold up in court.

It doesn't have to.

That said, Major League Baseball is the bad guy in my eyes.? Of course some athletes will push the envelope trying to "get an edge," but MLB should have done something about what was going on for years.? Now, was it the MLB owners or the MLB players' union who was more at fault?? Right now, I'd have to say the players' union.? Drug testing should never, ever, ever, have been a "bargaining chip."? That's just wrong.?

There's enough blame for both of them.  MLB teams turned a blind eye to the problem, because it wsa "good for baseball" (the pursuit of records, etc).  The MLBPA wasn't about to make things tough on the people paying their salaries through their dues.  By the time the MLB wanted to take action, there was such a culture of use and abuse that the MLBPA was almost forced to stonewall to keep it's membership intact.

[pilferk]

IMO, people like Mitchell and McNamee had an agenda and are the ones who should be bashed by the media and baseball fans!!!

Amen to that.

[Axl4Prez2004]

All that said, this new report doesn't change my opinion of Roger Clemens as a pitching talent.  Talented yes, but tainted, omg yes.  Professional athletes do not get better in their late 30's and 40's without "a little help from their friends."  (yeah, the Beatles kind of friends) 


Sorry about my negativity but it's just so damn disappointing. 

Tainted??  Disappointing?? Why???  I'm not picking on you personally but that just doesn't fly.

Just like some peoples saying that this would explain Clemens throwing the broken bat at Piazza.  OH FUCKIN PLEASE!!!!  Rocket was INFAMOUS for throwing at peoples and playing 'dirty' long before he threw that bat at that sissy Piazza!!!  If he does it while he's playing on your team, he's innocent and his actions misunderstood.  If he does it when he's playing for another team then he's an asshole.

Players have being doing all sorts of shit to gain an advantage since the game came into existence.  Gaylord Perry is in the Hall of Fame and deservedly so!!!

Yes, using steroids and shit like that is wrong and harmful (even deadly) and should be outlawed in the game.  BUT unless they have hard evidence that someone "used" during the time it was against the rules to do so, then their names should NOT have been included.   

IMO, people like Mitchell and McNamee had an agenda and are the ones who should be bashed by the media and baseball fans!!!

Gypsy Soul, don't get me wrong!  I have nothing against Roger Clemens for brushing back, throwing at, or chucking bats...as a pitcher, you've gotta do what ya gotta do.  He's a Hall of Famer no doubt and a gritty ballplayer.  I don't think pitchers should be thrown out of games for hitting batters.  It's baseball.  Hitters practically stand on home plate (and some don armor like Barry B. just in case the ball is thrown on the inside corner and hits him). 

My issue is with Clemens because ya know what?  Apparently there is substance to all the chatter that was going on all these years of him dabbling in "alternative methods" of staying young and strong.  Power pitchers decline over time, Roger was getting better.

I've spoken with a lot of folks who say, "Who cares?  Guys have been using whatever since the beginning of sport to get an edge."  Call me a purist.  I don't dig that.  Pilferk, I like some of your points, but I just don't buy this:  "the MLBPA was almost forced to stonewall to keep it's membership intact."  I think it was all about the benjamins. ($$$$)  That's what pisses me off.  As a major leaguer, union or whatever, your urine, blood, and hair samples should be drained, sucked, and plucked on a daily basis.  (wow, that sounds interesting  )  There's too much money available not to make it so.

Now, is it "fair" that only some of the players who have used (allegedly, but I still believe it), well, in my opinion yes.  But then again, opinions are like assholes, everyone's got one.   

[Layne Staley's Sunglasses]

I would never have gotten into Guns N' Roses and rock n' roll in general, had it not been for Eric Gagne's steroid use.

 

[pilferk]

I've spoken with a lot of folks who say, "Who cares?  Guys have been using whatever since the beginning of sport to get an edge."  Call me a purist.  I don't dig that.  Pilferk, I like some of your points, but I just don't buy this:  "the MLBPA was almost forced to stonewall to keep it's membership intact."  I think it was all about the benjamins. ($$$$)  That's what pisses me off.  As a major leaguer, union or whatever, your urine, blood, and hair samples should be drained, sucked, and plucked on a daily basis.  (wow, that sounds interesting  )  There's too much money available not to make it so.

Now, is it "fair" that only some of the players who have used (allegedly, but I still believe it), well, in my opinion yes.  But then again, opinions are like assholes, everyone's got one.   

Actually, that's was my point.  The MLBPA was "forced" to do it, or cut off their income because their dues payers would all no longer be paying dues. 

As a fan, on drug testing, I agree. I'm not sure it's that simple, though. The issue becomes one of privacy and trust....or at least that's the MLBPA's stance.

The first issue is privacy.  While I agree that MLB has the right to test for drugs, the issue becomes the samples...how long they stay around and what can be told from them now, or even later.  How they're used, essentially. It's a hot button issue.  Look at what happens when A-Rod is seen out with a hot woman who's not his wife.  Now what happens when someone gets a hold of his urine sample and leaks that he has an STD?

The second issue is trust.  Look at some of the governing sports bodies and the issues they've had with testing.  Cycling is a wreck because, even when they get it right...they've fucked up so often their "testing" isn't credible.  That's what the MLBPA fears...that MLB will control the testing process and hire the testers, etc.  The MLBPA feels they been burned (rightly or wrongly, intentionally or not) by baseball and the ownership far too often to trust them to get it right.  And MLB and the ownership doesn't trust hiring an outside, independent, jointly selected company.

One other thing: On Clemens getting "better".....I don't buy it.  It might have helped him stay healthier.  It might have helped his velocity NOT drop off more...but the fact is, his velocity DID drop considerably.   He's not the Rocket he was....and wasn't even that guy when he first joined the Yanks.  He wasn't throwing 97 to 99, anymore.  What he WAS doing was developing almost pinpoint location and great pitch selection that fooled hitters.  He developed a great intimidation factor and control of the plate.  NONE of that is effected by steroid use.

I'm not saying it might not have help.  It probably would.  It certainly may have given him an edge.  But neither am I going to place the entirety of his career accomplishments on the back of the alleged roid use.

[faldor]

Not to nitpick, but I don't think Clemens ever threw 97-99.  He was more in the mid nineties.  Granted he was a great pitcher before the alleged use.  All the guys on the list were great players.  You can't make it to the majors just by simply taking steroids.  But Roger did hit a career low at the end of his tenure with the Sox and had a sudden resurgence with the Blue Jays when the alleged use began.  Coincidence?  You decide.  Apparently he began using in 1998, a year after he won the Cy Young.  But then his first year with the Yanks was subpar and apparently used again and had a bounceback 2000 season.  Seems to fit.

[freedom78]

Why aren't they reputable?  I haven't been reading too much of the commentary in the media, so what's been established about these two that makes them lack credibility.

One has axes to grind with former players, management, etc.

One has lied to federal investigators in the past, and to LOTS of other people, including the press, MLB, and MLB teams. 

Both are under federal investigation for dealing illegal substances, and "cooperated" with federal investigators, and gave up most of the info in the Mitchell report to them (which they then reiterated to the Mitchell investigators....because, lets face it, they're not going to tell them they LIED to the feds) as part of amnesty/reduced charges/plea deals.

If you're looking into drug usage, you're going to be dealing with some less than reputable characters, I suppose.  In a case like this, being they guy who supposedly gave someone the drugs doesn't strike me as less credible.

Having an axe to grind does, though.

[GeorgeSteele]

If a player decides to sue MLB for defamation, is the burden of proof on them to prove they did not use steroids?  How do you prove a negative? 

For example, when years ago Tom Cruise sued the tabloids for saying he was a homosexual, did he need to prove he was not gay?