2007 Baseball Season is about to start--talk about anything you want

[sandman]

pilferk - did you mis-type when you said "no one wants to see" the red sox vs. yankees? cause that's the series everyone wants to see. that's the greatest rivalry in all of sports. it doesn't get any bigger than that.

re: J-Roll being MVP, it'll be unfortunate if Holliday has a huge game tonight and the writers are swayed by that. also, i thought it was important that Howard took over the RBI lead from Holliday, and now he has a chance to end up as the leader again. but J-Roll had an unbelievable game yesterday. he set the tone by leading off with a single, stealing 2nd, stealing 3rd, and then scoring on a sac fly. it was so important to score first and he got it done. and his defense is stellar.

i'm still kinda in shock. i can't believe we are in the playoffs and hosting the first series. biggest pep-rally in philadelphia history going on right now.

pasnow - yes, i had heard about the mini-billy statue....maybe there's something to it!

[freedom78]

pilferk - did you mis-type when you said "no one wants to see" the red sox vs. yankees? cause that's the series everyone wants to see. that's the greatest rivalry in all of sports. it doesn't get any bigger than that.

I completely disagree.  I think most people are sick of it.  The media use the same hype they've used for years, and it seems like 50% of the nationally televised games somehow happen to be Sox/Yanks or those teams, individually, playing some other team.  It's no longer an underdog vs. evil empire thing, since the Sox won a WS.  It's the battle of the bloated payrolls and egomaniacs. 

I'm much more excited about Indians/Yanks and Angels/Sox than I would be about another Sox/Yanks circle jerk.  But the media love it because they don't have to think of any new angles for their hype.  That said, I DO think that having the Yankees in a matchup makes it more interesting, but most of America stopped caring about the Red Sox within a year of them winning the World Series.  The only reason most of us still pay attention is because we're force fed the rivalry by the ridiculous East coast bias at ESPN and Fox.  Baseball Tonight would lead with Derek Jeter farting over an important game in another division.   

[sandman]

pilferk - did you mis-type when you said "no one wants to see" the red sox vs. yankees? cause that's the series everyone wants to see. that's the greatest rivalry in all of sports. it doesn't get any bigger than that.

I completely disagree.? I think most people are sick of it.? The media use the same hype they've used for years, and it seems like 50% of the nationally televised games somehow happen to be Sox/Yanks or those teams, individually, playing some other team.? It's no longer an underdog vs. evil empire thing, since the Sox won a WS.? It's the battle of the bloated payrolls and egomaniacs.?

I'm much more excited about Indians/Yanks and Angels/Sox than I would be about another Sox/Yanks circle jerk.? But the media love it because they don't have to think of any new angles for their hype.? That said, I DO think that having the Yankees in a matchup makes it more interesting, but most of America stopped caring about the Red Sox within a year of them winning the World Series.? The only reason most of us still pay attention is because we're force fed the rivalry by the ridiculous East coast bias at ESPN and Fox.? Baseball Tonight would lead with Derek Jeter farting over an important game in another division.? ?

you're in the minority. sure, the media milks it to death. but there's no denying that it's the biggest rivalry in sports, and that makes it more interesting than any other series.

not to mention two other facts:
1) people are more familiar with those teams than any other.
2) they are aguably the two best teams in baseball. so from a competitive standpoint, people want to see it as well.

i watched the regular season games at bars in philly and jersey (late may or june?) - and they were packed with everyone really getting into them. it's not even like that when the mets are on.

the NFL is the same way - the media milks the manning-brady thing to death as well. and although it's annoying, i still want to see them meet in the regular season AND the post-season. the media doesn't ruin the fun. 

[pilferk]

pilferk - did you mis-type when you said "no one wants to see" the red sox vs. yankees? cause that's the series everyone wants to see. that's the greatest rivalry in all of sports. it doesn't get any bigger than that.

freedom is pretty much displaying the case I was aiming at.

All I hear from the non-yanks and non-sox fans is how "unimportant", "boring", "played out", and uninteresting the Yanks vs Sox matchups are.  Pretty much what freedom is saying. "We wanna see other teams".  "We're sick of the Yanks and sox every year".  Thus why I say it's the matchup "no one wants to see".

But then, when they play on national TV....their games get the HIGHEST national ratings for a regular season game ALL YEAR.  Thus, it's the matchup everyone watches.

See where I'm going....?

[sandman]

by far the biggest ratings. and there's no doubt the series that will get the biggest ratings in the playoffs in sox-yankees.

and i'm assuming that fans of both teams want that match-up as well.

[freedom78]

you're in the minority. sure, the media milks it to death. but there's no denying that it's the biggest rivalry in sports, and that makes it more interesting than any other series.

not to mention two other facts:
1) people are more familiar with those teams than any other.
2) they are aguably the two best teams in baseball. so from a competitive standpoint, people want to see it as well.

I think you're in the minority.  But we're both biased by the markets in which we live.

Of course #1 is true.  If you put Toronto and Texas on the TV all the time, and hyped it up and milked it like they do, then THOSE would be the teams people are most familiar with.  It's not as if we're all closet Yankees or Sox fans who keep track of their stats on a nightly basis.   

As for #2, I'm not sure on what basis you make that claim.  The Cardinals have been in as many World Series as the Yanks have during this decade, and more than the BoSox.  And the Cards, White Sox, Marlins, and Dbacks have won just as many championships as either the Yanks or BoSox.  Further, the Sox almost pulled a Mets-like collapse, and have a record equal to that of Cleveland, which accomplished the task with about 45% of their payroll (based on 2006 numbers, as I can't seem to find 2007).  In fact, if Cleveland has the best record in the AL, why aren't THEY one of the two best teams? 

Now, as for competition, I do want to see these games.  If it comes down to Yanks/Sox, I'll watch, just as I'd watch Indians/Angels.  That's because I'm a baseball fan, and rarely get to watch AL games during the regular season.  I enjoy seeing other fan bases, ballparks, and October baseball wherever it's being played.  But if you think most of America is thinking "who am I for, Yanks or Sox?" then you're neglecting the fact that most of us would much prefer the Indians or Angels.   

I used to be VERY interested in this matchup, and it was a very special one to watch for a few years.  I pulled for the Sox like everyone else who isn't an Imperial Stormtrooper.  And Boone hit that home run and killed them, and so it was interesting for another year, and they pulled off an amazing comeback, down 3-0, and Curt bled on himself, and they won the Series, and so I was still interested in what would happen.  And then the milking began.  And then Mientkiewicz kept the ball, and we realized that some of these guys are assholes.  And then America held its collective breath ()as Theo resigned and unresigned.  And then we all realized that Manny is a diva, and Johnny left and cut his "idiot" hair, and we saw the Sox blow $51.1 million just to TALK to Daisuke, and then signed him for $9mil/year (by the way, the $60 mil spent on him in 2007 is more than the payroll of about eight MLB teams).  And all the while they played up this rivalry like it was still David v. Goliath, but the Red Sox never seemed to realize that they weren't still trying to overcome the Yankees.  They had become the Yankees.  The udder is dry.

the NFL is the same way - the media milks the manning-brady thing to death as well. and although it's annoying, i still want to see them meet in the regular season AND the post-season. the media doesn't ruin the fun. 

I live in Indy and even I'm sick of Manning/Brady.  WAY sick of it.  Brady used to own him.  Now it's flipped.  How can we talk about it for a week?

i watched the regular season games at bars in philly and jersey (late may or june?) - and they were packed with everyone really getting into them. it's not even like that when the mets are on.

I can see why people where you live would be more interested in it than those where I live.  I wouldn't disagree with that assessment.  But most people don't live in that area.  Now, about 50 million do, and I can understand why that big of a market would be enticing to the various networks, but that means that 250 million of us aren't in that market and, for us NL fans, that rivalry has no bearing whatsoever on our races.  I'm not saying it isn't the biggest rivalry.  It certainly is in baseball (I won't go so far as to say it's biggest in all of sports, or even American sports).  But there are many many millions of us who'd rather watch Cubs/Cards or Giants/Dodgers, and those teams aren't all perennial contenders and $150 million spenders.     

All I hear from the non-yanks and non-sox fans is how "unimportant", "boring", "played out", and uninteresting the Yanks vs Sox matchups are.  Pretty much what freedom is saying. "We wanna see other teams".  "We're sick of the Yanks and sox every year".  Thus why I say it's the matchup "no one wants to see".

But then, when they play on national TV....their games get the HIGHEST national ratings for a regular season game ALL YEAR.  Thus, it's the matchup everyone watches.

I don't know that I find them boring or even unimportant (after all, they are perennial contenders)...buy "played out" might come close to the mark.

As for the ratings, I point again to the 50 million living in that market including Jersey, the Eastern half of Pennsylvania, New York, Connecticut, Massachusetts, Vermont, New Hampshire, and Maine.  I don't know what kind of ratings Giants/Dodgers gets, though they have a comparably large market (though one with more teams in it).  Though if they both had great teams, in a given year, I don't think it would compete with the ratings.  Dodgers fans don't have a reputation (show up in the third, leave in the seventh, right?) as being quite so passionate as those in NYC, Boston, Chicago, STL, and a few other places.   

[sandman]

i'm sure the networks are hoping for cleveland-angels in round 2???

we'll check the ratings for the yanks and red sox series. and IF they end up playing, we'll compare the ratings to the last few years.

and just curious, in the 4 major U.S. professional sports, what do you believe is a bigger rivalry?

[freedom78]

i'm sure the networks are hoping for cleveland-angels in round 2???

we'll check the ratings for the yanks and red sox series. and IF they end up playing, we'll compare the ratings to the last few years.

and just curious, in the 4 major U.S. professional sports, what do you believe is a bigger rivalry?

Well, Lakers-Celtics in the 80s was probably bigger, because of the absolute dominance of the two teams over all others.  But there are a LOT of BIG rivalries...

Bears/Pack
Duke/NC
Michigan/Ohio State
Celtic/Rangers
...to name a few.

Some suggest for a rivalry to truly BE a rivalry, the two teams/opponents need to have had a competitive and evenly matched history.  The Yanks have 26 World Championships, and 39 Pennants, while the Red Sox have 6 and 11, respectively.  They also never met in the postseason until 1999, so the great, mythical Yanks/Sox postseason is only 9 years old (counting this postseason, to be generous). 

How about rivalries that have been truly competitive and hard fought...for LONGER than the Yanks/Sox?  Lehigh/Lafayette have the longest college football rivalry, at 142 games, and began meeting about 17 years before the Yanks and Sox even existed.  Or Wabash/Depauw, which began in 1890, and stands at 53-51-9 after 113 matches?  The players may not get paid $150 million/team, but that makes the competitive venom spewed by them and their fans all the more authentic.

And Celtic/Rangers?  Well, an intra-city (Glasgow) sports rivalry, where the fan bases are divided along ethnic lines has the makings of a classic, I think. 

I'm not saying Yanks/Sox isn't a good rivalry or interesting, but it is played out to some extent, and especially so in recent years for those who aren't fans of either team and have it force fed to us, not only in October, but all year.   

[faldor]

With the unbalanced schedule in baseball the Yanks/Sox rivalry was bound to get shoved down the nations throat.  They play 19 times a year, minimum.  Heck, a preseason game between the two draws more interest than a regular season game between the Twins and Royals.  And yes the Yankees dominate the Sox in a historical sense, but that's what has made the matchup so interesting over the years.  The whole selling of Babe Ruth, Boston Massacre, etc.  And maybe it's lost a little luster since the Sox won is such a dramatic fashion in 2004.  But don't you think the Yankees would want some revenge if they meet again this post-season?  I'm sure that will pique the interest of plenty of people across this great nation.

[freedom78]

With the unbalanced schedule in baseball the Yanks/Sox rivalry was bound to get shoved down the nations throat.  They play 19 times a year, minimum.  Heck, a preseason game between the two draws more interest than a regular season game between the Twins and Royals.  And yes the Yankees dominate the Sox in a historical sense, but that's what has made the matchup so interesting over the years.  The whole selling of Babe Ruth, Boston Massacre, etc.  And maybe it's lost a little luster since the Sox won is such a dramatic fashion in 2004.  But don't you think the Yankees would want some revenge if they meet again this post-season?  I'm sure that will pique the interest of plenty of people across this great nation.

Sure...especially Damon and Mientkiewicz.     

But seriously, I doubt they want it any more than any other team that is or is not in the playoffs, because of '04.  Most teams' fans would kill to be in the playoffs as consistently as the Yanks, despite the outcome.  What really piques my interest is seeing some teams I don't always get to see in October, like the Indians, Cubs, Phillies, and, perhaps, Rockies.  I also really enjoyed watching Detroit last year, because they had had so many struggles and had a great season. 

In '03, I remember Jeter being quoted as saying he was surprised that they weren't playing the night game on the first day of the playoffs, as he was clearly shocked that someone could be more interested in the Cubs/Braves series.    

But I'll watch all the matchups (including Pads/Rocks, starting in 8 minutes on TBS!), because October baseball is exciting.  If it comes down to Yanks/Sox in the AL, then I'm pulling for the Yanks.  They're a far more interesting nemesis for any NL team. 

[faldor]

Well you seem to be a hardcore baseball fan, so while you may like to see some teams you don't normally get to see, the vast majority of casual fans would want to see teams and players they're familiar with.  And I think more than just Damon and Mientkeiwicz would want revenge on the Sox.  They've got a lot of pride on the Yanks and I'm sure that was tough to take for Jeter, Posada, Rivera, Pettitte, Giambi, etc.  I'm a Sox fan so obviously I'm a little biased, but when they're not involved I just like seeing good baseball teams, or whoever plays the Yankees.  As for the NL, I don't wanna see the Padres.  Very good pitching but that offense is patetically putrid.  Any of the other 4 teams are great stories as not much was expected from the D'backs or Rockies, and the Phils and Cubs had great comebacks respectively.

[freedom78]

Well you seem to be a hardcore baseball fan, so while you may like to see some teams you don't normally get to see, the vast majority of casual fans would want to see teams and players they're familiar with. 

Hardcore Cubs fan, but I rarely watch other teams, except in October. 

And I think more than just Damon and Mientkeiwicz would want revenge on the Sox. 

I was kidding about that, as they were on that Sox team that made the comeback and won the Series.

As for the NL, I don't wanna see the Padres.  Very good pitching but that offense is patetically putrid.  Any of the other 4 teams are great stories as not much was expected from the D'backs or Rockies, and the Phils and Cubs had great comebacks respectively.

Wish granted...you have two more wishes. 

Man, that game tonight was great!  Rockies, 9-8.  If you didn't see it, just look at the scoreboard, and you'll understand. 


Inning         1          2           3           4           5          6            7            8          9           10       11      12      13           
San Diego
                0         0         5         0         0         0         0         1         0          0        0      0       2          
Colorado
                2         1         1         0         1         1         0         0         0          0        0      0       3          

Peavy stunk for the Pads, but their bullpen was magnificent, giving up nothing for 5 2/3.  Colorado's pen was great, too, though they looked like certain losers, down two in the 13th, with Hoffman coming on.  I can't believe he buckled under the pressure, twice in a week, when saving either game would have sent them to the playoffs.  But it was a great game.  And it wouldn't have been a damn lick better if if were Yanks/Sox, either.

[tim_m]

It was a great game other then the two horrifically blown calls.

[Misfits 138]

yea, i watched the game tonight as well, i enjoyed it, pretty damn grand of a game played! i cant wait untill wednsday now..however...friggin 10 at night?? i guess i will stay up, caus game 1 of the cubs playoff! and i wonder what time they have for saturdays game...could be a fun night in wrigleyville.  i like the cubs chances against the d-backs, i think we will make it to the NLCS.  and then i dont know who we will face in that, im hoping its the rockies, caus i dont like the cubs chances against philly, however...rockies we can handle, plus sine rockies won wild card, cubs get homefield advantage, so i would be back in wrigley to see those games!

[pilferk]

As for the ratings, I point again to the 50 million living in that market including Jersey, the Eastern half of Pennsylvania, New York, Connecticut, Massachusetts, Vermont, New Hampshire, and Maine.  I don't know what kind of ratings Giants/Dodgers gets, though they have a comparably large market (though one with more teams in it).  Though if they both had great teams, in a given year, I don't think it would compete with the ratings.  Dodgers fans don't have a reputation (show up in the third, leave in the seventh, right?) as being quite so passionate as those in NYC, Boston, Chicago, STL, and a few other places.   

The metered ratings would indicate your assumptions aren't correct.

The NATIONAL ratings on the Sox/Yanks ESPN Sunday game from a couple weeks back was a 4.3 cable rating.  It was the 8th highest rated cable broadcast of the week.

The highest rated ESPN game NOT involving the Yanks and Sox (who turned in a 4.0 earlier in the season), prior to that, this season, was a 1.8.....

Regionally, yes, there was a spike in the NE corner of the US.....but not enough of one to pull that 4.3 number up 2.5 points, nationally, over the next highest rated game.  I'll also grant you that it was one of the more "meaningful" games on TV at the time...though I'd argue that the national league games were just as meaningful, too.

Fox has seen similar trends with their games, but I don't have their exact numbers.  I do know that back in 2004, thier Monday Night ALCS game did a 14.3 broadcast rating.  The other playoff matchups were in the 5's.

Which is why I said what I did:  People "complain" about the Yanks/Sox matchups, say they don't want to see them anymore, but more people WATCH them than any other games over the course of the year.

[pilferk]

Some suggest for a rivalry to truly BE a rivalry, the two teams/opponents need to have had a competitive and evenly matched history.  The Yanks have 26 World Championships, and 39 Pennants, while the Red Sox have 6 and 11, respectively.  They also never met in the postseason until 1999, so the great, mythical Yanks/Sox postseason is only 9 years old (counting this postseason, to be generous). 

To be fair, the wildcard only came into existence in baseball in '94.  Prior to that, because the Yanks and Sox are in the same division (and only the division winner could go on), it would have been IMPOSSIBLE for them to meet in the post season.

In the US, in the 4 major pro team sports, I don't think I can name a "bigger" rivalry currently in existence.  There have been some that have come close in the past (Lakers/Celtics was mentioned) but I can't think of any currently.  Dallas vs the rest of the NFC, maybe.

[freedom78]

The metered ratings would indicate your assumptions aren't correct.
...
I do know that back in 2004, thier Monday Night ALCS game did a 14.3 broadcast rating.  The other playoff matchups were in the 5's.

   

I don't see why.  Two passionate and enormous fan bases, competitive teams, and important games should add up to a pretty good rating.  And people weren't sick of it, in 2004.  It was still really interesting, as the Sox hadn't won their Series.       

As for not watching it, I'm fairly certain I never claimed that people (or myself) wouldn't watch it.  I simply said they're sick of it (which seems in line with your point), all the fake media hype around it that doesn't change year to year, and so forth.     

In the US, in the 4 major pro team sports, I don't think I can name a "bigger" rivalry currently in existence.  There have been some that have come close in the past (Lakers/Celtics was mentioned) but I can't think of any currently.  Dallas vs the rest of the NFC, maybe.

I think it's also easy to overestimate baseball's popularity.  It is currently doing very well, but more people like football than baseball, and I'm betting the ratings would back me up on that one. 

yea, i watched the game tonight as well, i enjoyed it, pretty damn grand of a game played! i cant wait untill wednsday now..however...friggin 10 at night?? i guess i will stay up, caus game 1 of the cubs playoff! and i wonder what time they have for saturdays game...could be a fun night in wrigleyville.  i like the cubs chances against the d-backs, i think we will make it to the NLCS.  and then i dont know who we will face in that, im hoping its the rockies, caus i dont like the cubs chances against philly, however...rockies we can handle, plus sine rockies won wild card, cubs get homefield advantage, so i would be back in wrigley to see those games!

I'm extremely annoyed for them to be playing 10 pm games.  It's as if they want Cubs fans to not watch it.  The games in Chicago are not as late, though.

Phils/Rocks should be a good series.  One pretty hot team is goin' home early, in that one.

[pilferk]

I don't see why.  Two passionate and enormous fan bases, competitive teams, and important games should add up to a pretty good rating.  And people weren't sick of it, in 2004.  It was still really interesting, as the Sox hadn't won their Series.       
 

The metered national ratings aren't heavily influenced by regional "spikes".  Soi that ardent passionate and enormous fan base would need to be littered throughout the country (and, by attendance when the Sox and Yanks travel...and the gear on display in the stands, I'd say that's true).  That's my point.  If you pull a 4.3, compared to a 1.8, it means more people, NATIONALLY watched that game than any other game this season (other, that is, than an early season Yanks/Sox matchup). You can't chalk that up to JUST the NE US being tuned in because of the nature of the ratings.  That was for Sept of '07....so people should be "just as sick of it" now as they will in the playoffs.

As for not watching it, I'm fairly certain I never claimed that people (or myself) wouldn't watch it.  I simply said they're sick of it (which seems in line with your point), all the fake media hype around it that doesn't change year to year, and so forth.

Which was what I originally said.  It's the matchup "no one wants to see" (as in, people complain because they're sick of it) but everyone will watch (ie: The ratings will be huge...and if historical trends continue, they'll be larger than any other playoff game).     

I think it's also easy to overestimate baseball's popularity.  It is currently doing very well, but more people like football than baseball, and I'm betting the ratings would back me up on that one. 

Which doesn't answer the question.  Yes, football pulls higher ratings per game (but has FAR fewer games).  But name a bigger rivalry in football than Yanks/Sox in baseball.  I simply can't think of any.

[freedom78]

For anyone who doesn't understand why baseball is a great sport, check this out (far too big to post here):

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=3041066

The simple wackiness that can come out of 30 teams playing 162 games each is amazing.
***************************************

Which doesn't answer the question...

What question?  I claim people are "sick of it."  You claim "no one wants to see" it.  Why are we debating this?  Is it too early to drink? 

[pilferk]

What question?  I claim people are "sick of it."  You claim "no one wants to see" it.  Why are we debating this?  Is it too early to drink? 

The question was (posed by sandman awhile back) "In the 4 major U.S. Pro sports, what do you believe to be a bigger rivalry than Yanks vs Sox"?

It's not too early to drink around here...heck, this is practically drinking conversation for me.  Nothing beats talking baseball while downing a cold beer.