The CD release date rumor / speculation thread

[HoldenCaulfield]

But where do you draw the line between what's "over-produced" and what's not? We could argue forever whether November Rain is "over-produced" or not. And if something is "over-produced" does that in and of itself make it bad?

"Over-production" is just another one of those artificial catch-phrases: conveniently vague enough so it can be applied to art the industry does not want and not applied to art the industry does want.

i would disagree with you there that the term is an industry conspiracy. There have been many examples over the years of this ailment

An example of overproduction? Where every instrument sounds perfect to the point where it is impossible to tell if a human played it or nor, that is, the human aspect of art (which is the most important aspect of great art) is reduced or missing entirely. This can be caused by too much time in the studio playing the same piece over and over and over. It becomes so rote, that all emotion is drained from said piece. Now this is not to say that in the studio, you just rock up and do it in one take regardless if it sounds unrehearsed and like shit basically. But there is a point where you want to leave a little sponteinaity in the mix I believe. Appetite and countless other classics have this element.

Another example is when too many layers are added in the studio , to the point where the music can't 'breathe'. Again, a symptom of too long in a recording studio.

And finally, the effects that are added to each instruments can make a song or recording sound overproduced as well. Too much reverb, chorus, delay, compression etc.. etc... can make a record sound too 'studio'.

It is indeed a fine line between under-done and over-done. Im certainly not wanting CD to be a garage record, but I also hope that it's not a bloated, excessive mastubatory exercise either.

Do you consider 'November Rain' to be "masturbatory"? The key to GNR's complicity is subtlety. If you LISTEN to a high-quality version of 'Madagascar', you'll notice tons of different strings and layers and synths and textures, but it's so subtle, you have to directly listen for it. When you're casually listening to it, you don't say "Blah! 32 layers of strings?!? That song sucks!". People have touted this "over-produced" theory for years, but when you hear them say Paul Buckmaster had a 32-piece orchestra lay down some strings for "Madagascar", they're just doing it for the autheticity. Instead of bringing a full orchestra on tour with them, Pittman will be able to add all of that in the background live. I guarantee you though that you won't be able to tell there's an orchestra on the album, at least not to the point where it detracts from a song...

[jimmythegent]

But where do you draw the line between what's "over-produced" and what's not? We could argue forever whether November Rain is "over-produced" or not. And if something is "over-produced" does that in and of itself make it bad?

"Over-production" is just another one of those artificial catch-phrases: conveniently vague enough so it can be applied to art the industry does not want and not applied to art the industry does want.

i would disagree with you there that the term is an industry conspiracy.

What conspiracy? I never said or thought there was a conspiracy. It's just marketing. The big 4 oligopoly is simply trying to bring down production costs and increase profits. It's as simple as that.

There have been many examples over the years of this ailment

An example of overproduction? Where every instrument sounds perfect to the point where it is impossible to tell if a human played it or nor, that is, the human aspect of art (which is the most important aspect of great art) is reduced or missing entirely. This can be caused by too much time in the studio playing the same piece over and over and over. It becomes so rote, that all emotion is drained from said piece. Now this is not to stay that in the studio, you just rock up and do it in one take regardless if it sounds unrehearsed and like shit basically. But there is a point where you want to leave a little sponteinaity in the mix I believe. Appetite and countless other classics have this element.

Another example is when too many layers are added in the studio , to the point where the music can't 'breathe'. Again, a symptom of too long in a recording studio.

And finally, the effects that are added to each instruments can make a song or recording sound overproduced as well. Too much reverb, chorus, delay, compression etc.. etc... can make a record sound too 'studio'.

It is indeed a fine line between under-done and over-done. Im certainly not wanting CD to be a garage record, but I also hope that it's not a bloated, excessive mastubatory exercise either.

You said there were many "examples," but you neglected to mention even one. NIN? Def Leppard? Queen? The Illusion albums? What?

And your description of what you consider overproduction is still subjective. Most people have different opinions as to what "the most important aspect of great art" is, and then as to what the "human aspect" actually means. You may not be able to tell whether a human played a certain piece or not, but maybe I can. Furthermore, different humans have different capabilities and some are able to play better than others. Are Slash or Buckethead not human because they have the talent to play more perfectly than Kurt Cobain? Enough of this vagueness. If there is a "fine line," define it in concrete terms!

the word conspiracy was used because you implied it was a marketing tool? -under-producing records to give them false "street-cred" - I disagree with this notion, thats all

you want specific examples of albums I feel are over-produced? Sure...

Anything by Linkin Park
Oasis - Be here now
about 1/3 of the Illusions (and yes, I believe November Rain is too layered and the core of the song would have been more exposed had it been stripped down a bit.)
Let it be - The Beatles
Michael Jackson - Invincible
Def Leppard - Hysteria


you are right, "over-production" is subjective. However, me stating that the "human-ness" of art is what renders it potent, is, and Im sure many would agree - on the money. There are all kinds of interpretations that can be applied to art, but music specifically (unless we are talking electronica or aggressive techno) is often at its most potent when human emotions, frailties etc.. etc.. are exposed. This is fair comment, and I feel I am qualified to comment given I have tutored and taught guitar for the last 8 years. Im not going to get into a Slash vs Bucket vs Cobain debate, but I will say that one of the contstant arguments on this board tends to be who they prefer between Bucket and Slash. Slash resoundingly is named the favorite although there is broad agreement in Bucket being the better player of the two. This is because of the emotion, warts and all playing that give Slash the edge over Buckets technically mindblowing wizardry. They are two extremes, but I feel it further illustrates my point which you appear to have dismissed solely because it differs somewhat from yours.


All of this is just my opinion as always.. but Axl spending over 10 years in the studio tinkering lends validity to those who may fear he's going to go too far. Hence, "over-production" is a very worthy topic of discussion/debate etc..

There is no dictionary definition of overproduced, my views have merely been stated. How about we turn the tables and you offer some "concrete" evidence instead of your own vague assertions as to why the whole notion of overproduction is a marketing tool and does not in fact exist?

[LordRazZ]

The sad part of this whole conversation is the fact that you listened to a Michael Jackson album enough to think it was over produced.

I didn't realize he'd done anything since "Bad". Quite honestly, I didn't care either.

Sorry. I'm just in the mood to be an asshole tonight.

[jimmythegent]

The sad part of this whole conversation is the fact that you listened to a Michael Jackson album enough to think it was over produced.

I didn't realize he'd done anything since "Bad". Quite honestly, I didn't care either.

Sorry. I'm just in the mood to be an asshole tonight.

clearly

I used to work part time in a CD store, and I indeed listened to it upon release. In fact I listen to a lot of music. The fact remains, that is a well know example of over-production, you see?

[LordRazZ]

I feel sorry for you having to go through that kind of torture. Here I thought the life of a music store clerk was that of groupies, free tix, and partying for days on end.

Ok. Honestly, I'm sorry to hear to had to sit through an overproduced Michael Jackson album.

[POPmetal]

But where do you draw the line between what's "over-produced" and what's not? We could argue forever whether November Rain is "over-produced" or not. And if something is "over-produced" does that in and of itself make it bad?

"Over-production" is just another one of those artificial catch-phrases: conveniently vague enough so it can be applied to art the industry does not want and not applied to art the industry does want.

i would disagree with you there that the term is an industry conspiracy.

What conspiracy? I never said or thought there was a conspiracy. It's just marketing. The big 4 oligopoly is simply trying to bring down production costs and increase profits. It's as simple as that.

There have been many examples over the years of this ailment

An example of overproduction? Where every instrument sounds perfect to the point where it is impossible to tell if a human played it or nor, that is, the human aspect of art (which is the most important aspect of great art) is reduced or missing entirely. This can be caused by too much time in the studio playing the same piece over and over and over. It becomes so rote, that all emotion is drained from said piece. Now this is not to stay that in the studio, you just rock up and do it in one take regardless if it sounds unrehearsed and like shit basically. But there is a point where you want to leave a little sponteinaity in the mix I believe. Appetite and countless other classics have this element.

Another example is when too many layers are added in the studio , to the point where the music can't 'breathe'. Again, a symptom of too long in a recording studio.

And finally, the effects that are added to each instruments can make a song or recording sound overproduced as well. Too much reverb, chorus, delay, compression etc.. etc... can make a record sound too 'studio'.

It is indeed a fine line between under-done and over-done. Im certainly not wanting CD to be a garage record, but I also hope that it's not a bloated, excessive mastubatory exercise either.

You said there were many "examples," but you neglected to mention even one. NIN? Def Leppard? Queen? The Illusion albums? What?

And your description of what you consider overproduction is still subjective. Most people have different opinions as to what "the most important aspect of great art" is, and then as to what the "human aspect" actually means. You may not be able to tell whether a human played a certain piece or not, but maybe I can. Furthermore, different humans have different capabilities and some are able to play better than others. Are Slash or Buckethead not human because they have the talent to play more perfectly than Kurt Cobain? Enough of this vagueness. If there is a "fine line," define it in concrete terms!

the word conspiracy was used because you implied it was a marketing tool? -under-producing records to give them false "street-cred" - I disagree with this notion, thats all

Disagree with me all you want, but don't put words in my mouth.

you want specific examples of albums I feel are over-produced? Sure...

Anything by Linkin Park
Oasis - Be here now
about 1/3 of the Illusions (and yes, I believe November Rain is too layered and the core of the song would have been more exposed had it been stripped down a bit.)
Let it be - The Beatles
Michael Jackson - Invincible
Def Leppard - Hysteria


you are right, "over-production" is subjective. However, me stating that the "human-ness" of art is what renders it potent, is, and Im sure many would agree - on the money. There are all kinds of interpretations that can be applied to art, but music specifically (unless we are talking electronica or aggressive techno) is often at its most potent when human emotions, frailties etc.. etc.. are exposed. This is fair comment, and I feel I am qualified to comment given I have tutored and taught guitar for the last 8 years. Im not going to get into a Slash vs Bucket vs Cobain debate, but I will say that one of the contstant arguments on this board tends to be who they prefer between Bucket and Slash. Slash resoundingly is named the favorite although there is broad agreement in Bucket being the better player of the two. This is because of the emotion, warts and all playing that give Slash the edge over Buckets technically mindblowing wizardry. They are two extremes, but I feel it further illustrates my point which you appear to have dismissed solely because it differs somewhat from yours.

Don't be throwing rocks if you live in a glass house, because you just dismissed the points of view of millions of people who like the albums you sited as "overproduced," simply because you disagree with them about what constitutes good music and/or humanness. Just because Let It Be or Love Bites or Numb are recorded flawlessly, doesn't mean there's no emotion and human aspects to those songs.

And I didn't dismiss your point simply because it differs from mine. It wasn't even I that dismissed your point. I've been arguing all along that overproduction is a vague artificial concept and, at least as far as the argument between us is concerned, you dismissed your own point when you conceded that it was "subjective."

All of this is just my opinion as always.. but Axl spending over 10 years in the studio tinkering lends validity to those who may fear he's going to go too far. Hence, "over-production" is a very worthy topic of discussion/debate etc..

What's too far for one person is not enough for another. Discussing it is fine, but it's pointless to debate something that is subjective. And you did admit that "overproduction" was subjective.

Just because an album is recorded perfectly, layered heavily, etc. doesn't automatically mean that it can't portray feeling and emotion and hence retain it's humanness and manifest great art. November Rain is great example, as are some of the albums you said were "overproduced."

There is no dictionary definition of overproduced, my views have merely been stated. How about we turn the tables and you offer some "concrete" evidence instead of your own vague assertions as to why the whole notion of overproduction is a marketing tool and does not in fact exist?

Before you turn any tables, you should do your bidding and show where that "fine line" is. All you've done so far is offer your views, but you still act as if your views are law of the universe.

I don't know if you're just being an asshole because there is nothing "vague" about my assertion, but just in case you aren't, I'll answer your question and spell it out for you anyway. The crux of my entire argument is in the fact that "overproduction" is subjective. You can dislike something because it's too polished. That's your taste, there's nothing wrong with that, and more power to you. But it's perfectly fine for someone else to like something that is polished beyond perfection. Neither is more or less natural. (You should agree with me so far, since you agreed that overproduction is subjective) But if that is the case, then the only reason the disparaging term "overproduction" exists is because one side artificially created it so they can make their point of view appear better than the other. The part about the oligopoly using it for marketing is just my theory. I don't care whether you agree with me about that, but I don't think it's incredible.

[LordRazZ]

Yeah. What they said.

Thanks for showing me up asshole. I'd write a kick ass reply like that too, but I don't have the time, patience, or functioning keyboard to come up with anything nearly as intelligent. In fact, it took me 16 hours just to type this comment.

So anyway. Isn't this thread supposed to revolve around CD, and rumours, and release dates? Why is it that I'm the one who's always catching shit for changing the topic around here?

Just so I can keep up this whole "non-pain-in-the-ass" RazZ thing I've been trying, I'm even going to go out of my way to get this thread back on track, so it's all about what we read it for. False rumours that get our hopes up, just to let us down.

So does anyone have any new rumours (you'll notice I'm not a Yank by my spelling of the word "rumour") about Chinese Democracy?

They don't have to be accurate or anything. Hell, make something up right now, and post it. This is a rumour thread after all. And if we don't have anyone brave enough to start said rumours, this thread will sadly die a slow, painful death, as we all check back every day for new info, all the while bickering between one another about pointless shit that has nothing to do with this thread. Eventually, it'll be moved to the "Dead Horse" thread (like all of MY topics), until it's finally renamed "There's no new rumours, so feel free to bicker amongst yourselves here, for lack of any new info".

Wait. What was I talking about? I lost track about 2 sentences ago. Oh well. Talk amongst yourselves again.

So how bout them....erm...Cubs?

[jimmythegent]

But where do you draw the line between what's "over-produced" and what's not? We could argue forever whether November Rain is "over-produced" or not. And if something is "over-produced" does that in and of itself make it bad?

"Over-production" is just another one of those artificial catch-phrases: conveniently vague enough so it can be applied to art the industry does not want and not applied to art the industry does want.

i would disagree with you there that the term is an industry conspiracy.

What conspiracy? I never said or thought there was a conspiracy. It's just marketing. The big 4 oligopoly is simply trying to bring down production costs and increase profits. It's as simple as that.

There have been many examples over the years of this ailment

An example of overproduction? Where every instrument sounds perfect to the point where it is impossible to tell if a human played it or nor, that is, the human aspect of art (which is the most important aspect of great art) is reduced or missing entirely. This can be caused by too much time in the studio playing the same piece over and over and over. It becomes so rote, that all emotion is drained from said piece. Now this is not to stay that in the studio, you just rock up and do it in one take regardless if it sounds unrehearsed and like shit basically. But there is a point where you want to leave a little sponteinaity in the mix I believe. Appetite and countless other classics have this element.

Another example is when too many layers are added in the studio , to the point where the music can't 'breathe'. Again, a symptom of too long in a recording studio.

And finally, the effects that are added to each instruments can make a song or recording sound overproduced as well. Too much reverb, chorus, delay, compression etc.. etc... can make a record sound too 'studio'.

It is indeed a fine line between under-done and over-done. Im certainly not wanting CD to be a garage record, but I also hope that it's not a bloated, excessive mastubatory exercise either.

You said there were many "examples," but you neglected to mention even one. NIN? Def Leppard? Queen? The Illusion albums? What?

And your description of what you consider overproduction is still subjective. Most people have different opinions as to what "the most important aspect of great art" is, and then as to what the "human aspect" actually means. You may not be able to tell whether a human played a certain piece or not, but maybe I can. Furthermore, different humans have different capabilities and some are able to play better than others. Are Slash or Buckethead not human because they have the talent to play more perfectly than Kurt Cobain? Enough of this vagueness. If there is a "fine line," define it in concrete terms!

the word conspiracy was used because you implied it was a marketing tool? -under-producing records to give them false "street-cred" - I disagree with this notion, thats all

Disagree with me all you want, but don't put words in my mouth.

you want specific examples of albums I feel are over-produced? Sure...

Anything by Linkin Park
Oasis - Be here now
about 1/3 of the Illusions (and yes, I believe November Rain is too layered and the core of the song would have been more exposed had it been stripped down a bit.)
Let it be - The Beatles
Michael Jackson - Invincible
Def Leppard - Hysteria


you are right, "over-production" is subjective. However, me stating that the "human-ness" of art is what renders it potent, is, and Im sure many would agree - on the money. There are all kinds of interpretations that can be applied to art, but music specifically (unless we are talking electronica or aggressive techno) is often at its most potent when human emotions, frailties etc.. etc.. are exposed. This is fair comment, and I feel I am qualified to comment given I have tutored and taught guitar for the last 8 years. Im not going to get into a Slash vs Bucket vs Cobain debate, but I will say that one of the contstant arguments on this board tends to be who they prefer between Bucket and Slash. Slash resoundingly is named the favorite although there is broad agreement in Bucket being the better player of the two. This is because of the emotion, warts and all playing that give Slash the edge over Buckets technically mindblowing wizardry. They are two extremes, but I feel it further illustrates my point which you appear to have dismissed solely because it differs somewhat from yours.

Don't be throwing rocks if you live in a glass house, because you just dismissed the points of view of millions of people who like the albums you sited as "overproduced," simply because you disagree with them about what constitutes good music and/or humanness. Just because Let It Be or Love Bites or Numb are recorded flawlessly, doesn't mean there's no emotion and human aspects to those songs.

And I didn't dismiss your point simply because it differs from mine. It wasn't even I that dismissed your point. I've been arguing all along that overproduction is a vague artificial concept and, at least as far as the argument between us is concerned, you dismissed your own point when you conceded that it was "subjective."

All of this is just my opinion as always.. but Axl spending over 10 years in the studio tinkering lends validity to those who may fear he's going to go too far. Hence, "over-production" is a very worthy topic of discussion/debate etc..

What's too far for one person is not enough for another. Discussing it is fine, but it's pointless to debate something that is subjective. And you did admit that "overproduction" was subjective.

Just because an album is recorded perfectly, layered heavily, etc. doesn't automatically mean that it can't portray feeling and emotion and hence retain it's humanness and manifest great art. November Rain is great example, as are some of the albums you said were "overproduced."

There is no dictionary definition of overproduced, my views have merely been stated. How about we turn the tables and you offer some "concrete" evidence instead of your own vague assertions as to why the whole notion of overproduction is a marketing tool and does not in fact exist?

Before you turn any tables, you should do your bidding and show where that "fine line" is. All you've done so far is offer your views, but you still act as if your views are law of the universe.

I don't know if you're just being an asshole because there is nothing "vague" about my assertion, but just in case you aren't, I'll answer your question and spell it out for you anyway. The crux of my entire argument is in the fact that "overproduction" is subjective. You can dislike something because it's too polished. That's your taste, there's nothing wrong with that, and more power to you. But it's perfectly fine for someone else to like something that is polished beyond perfection. Neither is more or less natural. (You should agree with me so far, since you agreed that overproduction is subjective) But if that is the case, then the only reason the disparaging term "overproduction" exists is because one side artificially created it so they can make their point of view appear better than the other. The part about the oligopoly using it for marketing is just my theory. I don't care whether you agree with me about that, but I don't think it's incredible.

hey, did I not state emphatically that the views I expressed were my opinion? Yes I did, so saying I "act as if my views are the law of the universe" is a little unfair methinks

You asked for specific examples of what my views of overproduced were, I provided them. Thats not to say that people don't enjoy those albums,? ?obviously they do as some of those albums have sold in the millions.

Regarding the whole "subjective" term, I think that can be applied to most words/phrases/ideas/concepts don't you? So clutching at the one sidepoint and implying it's the hard and fast point is grasping at straws a little I think.
Youre saying "overproduced" is a convenient way in which record co's etc can market below par recordings (which I referred to as a conspiracy theory, however I didnt quote as verbatim so you're really reaching there when accusing me of "putting words in your mouth"), I'm saying that the existence of over-production is very real (at least for many listeners, some may prefer this sound as you point out, but it doesn't dispell the fact that it turns a lot of people off).

To me it is simple - overproduction is a curse that can be entrenched in an album and it is a very real possibility that CD could suffer this affliction - I wasn't trying to debate or determine peoples tastes - because as you say, peoples tastes are subjective - ranging from the polished studio production sound, to the raw live sound. That is really the subjective part of what we are discussing IMO, not whether overproduction exists or not.

And no, I'm not trying to be an asshole and I've been able to acknowledge points you make -I'm here for good conversation be it debate or sharing of ideas, I'm not here for hostility or name calling. ?

 

[LordRazZ]

And we're all very thankful that you've shared your opinion here. But you're forgetting three very important points.

1) No matter how much production goes into CD, it'll still be the greatest album of all time.

2) We all think that Axl is the biggest asshole in the universe for making us wait this long for CD.

and most importantly....

3) We'll forgive him and put him on the highest pedestal again, the instant it comes out.

[patience26]

iI guess you`re rigth!All the people here that bashes Axl all the time, once the album comes out, will fall down on their knees and ask God forgiven for has beeing such an asshole!!!

Rock on?

[purplehaze1988]

And we're all very thankful that you've shared your opinion here. But you're forgetting three very important points.

1) No matter how much production goes into CD, it'll still be the greatest album of all time.

2) We all think that Axl is the biggest asshole in the universe for making us wait this long for CD.

and most importantly....

3) We'll forgive him and put him on the highest pedestal again, the instant it comes out.

Even if it is the greatest album ever it will still receive hundreds of negative reviews, mainly from people who haven't even heard the album but like to complain that "SLASH IZ GNR!!!1!!"

But it won't be the greatest album ever. It'll be a flawed masterpiece like the Illusions albums.

[pilferk]

And we're all very thankful that you've shared your opinion here. But you're forgetting three very important points.

1) No matter how much production goes into CD, it'll still be the greatest album of all time.

2) We all think that Axl is the biggest asshole in the universe for making us wait this long for CD.

and most importantly....

3) We'll forgive him and put him on the highest pedestal again, the instant it comes out.

Well, I don't think Axl is the biggest asshole in the universe...not because he "made us wait" (I must have missed the guns he's holding to all our heads), nor for any other reason.  I think he's a person.  And just like any person, he has flaws and merits....

Maybe it's because I don't feel Axl "owes" us an album...and I don't feel like I'm putting any effort into "waiting"...so I don't begrudge him the time it's taken for the creative process.  I'm certainly anticipating it's release, and will be excited when/if it IS released, but...I don't know...it's just not that big of a piece of my life to actually get ticked off about.  If he delivers, GREAT!  If not...ah well.  In the grand scheme of things...it's a fucking album!  It's not gonna change the world (well, unless it's from "The Wild Stallions!!"...party on dude), it's not gonna cure cancer, and it's sure as fuck not going to make my life (or any other posters life...unless Axl is posting...Axl, you there???....) appreciably better or worse depending on it's release.

Yes, I'd like to hear it.  Yes, I want it to come out.  If Axl never releases it, I STILL won't think he's the biggest asshole on the planet.  Sometimes, I think we all need to put this album in a bit more perspective.  Worry about your family, worry about your house, worry about work...that shit is the stuff to spend your energy worrying about. That's productive shit to worry about.  Worrying about them might solve whatever "problem of the moment" is plaguing them.  Fuck the album.  It's not worth your time or energy, no matter how good it may be, to worry about.  Firstly, because (again, in perspective), as I said, it's just a fucking album.  Secondly, because no amount of worrying is going to get Axl to do anything but what he wants to do...not going to get the album released quicker (I think we can safely say that our ajada, over the past however many years, has accomplished jack squat...so we can assume it will continue to accomplish the same), not going to prompt the redheaded recluse to speak, and it's not going to pry any information from any source that's credible (which, really, is just Axl, again).

We come here to shoot the shit about GnR.  Speculate, talk, get excited together, share info, stories, make friends, etc...that's what we do. But coming here and getting "worked up" over the album...man...life is too god damn short for that shit.



 

[madagas]

too short to read that post! Just kidding.....nice points.

[rainX]

hey razz, i did get a weird e-mail over at thenewguns.com today where i admin with chineseblues, but it just said "I know every morning that Chinese Democracy won't be announced today, because it's already tomorrow in Australia."

but i get shit like that all the time making fun of me cuz i help run a forum where it's not about the old band.

though i did think at least this one was a little more creative

[Nytunz]

Well. I guess most of you have read the "Chinese Democracy Update" on Sp1at! I wont post it here, coz i dont have that much trust in it!
What do you guys think? Anyway. If only the Credits is left, then we should hear anything in August i guess!

[DemocracyRose]

Well nothing new....

[killingvector]

*fingers crossed.

We'll see. Hopefully some official word soon.

[jimmythegent]

Well. I guess most of you have read the "Chinese Democracy Update" on Sp1at! I wont post it here, coz i dont have that much trust in it!
What do you guys think? Anyway. If only the Credits is left, then we should hear anything in August i guess!

It looked pretty damn promising to me

[POPmetal]

hey, did I not state emphatically that the views I expressed were my opinion? Yes I did, so saying I "act as if my views are the law of the universe" is a little unfair methinks

You asked for specific examples of what my views of overproduced were, I provided them. Thats not to say that people don't enjoy those albums,? ?obviously they do as some of those albums have sold in the millions.

Regarding the whole "subjective" term, I think that can be applied to most words/phrases/ideas/concepts don't you? So clutching at the one sidepoint and implying it's the hard and fast point is grasping at straws a little I think.
Youre saying "overproduced" is a convenient way in which record co's etc can market below par recordings (which I referred to as a conspiracy theory, however I didnt quote as verbatim so you're really reaching there when accusing me of "putting words in your mouth"), I'm saying that the existence of over-production is very real (at least for many listeners, some may prefer this sound as you point out, but it doesn't dispell the fact that it turns a lot of people off).

To me it is simple - overproduction is a curse that can be entrenched in an album and it is a very real possibility that CD could suffer this affliction - I wasn't trying to debate or determine peoples tastes - because as you say, peoples tastes are subjective - ranging from the polished studio production sound, to the raw live sound. That is really the subjective part of what we are discussing IMO, not whether overproduction exists or not.

And no, I'm not trying to be an asshole and I've been able to acknowledge points you make -I'm here for good conversation be it debate or sharing of ideas, I'm not here for hostility or name calling. ?

Yes, the term "subjective" applies to to many words/phrases/ideas/concepts, but it is pretentious to insist that one's subjective taste is better than another's. Do you see where I'm coming from?

What people who whine about "overproduction" are doing is tantamount to: if people who like wearing dark colors were to say that bright colors are "oversaturated" and therefore bright clothes should not be made so that we can get rid of the "affliction" that is "oversaturation." It is just as snobbish and ridiculous to claim that strong production, heavy layering, etc. are an "affliction" as it would be to claim that bright colors are an "affliction."

Now, I don't expect you to see where I'm coming from, since you're being such an ideologue about this that nothing is likely to sway you. I mean, you call it a "curse" and an "affliction" and whatnot, one would think you were talking about slavery or cancer or famine, not production. So you and your ilk go on believing what you want to believe. I have no doubt that no matter what CD sounds like, there will be plenty of people who'll throw out stereotypes like "overproduction" and try to stigmatize the album. I will judge it based on the merits of the music. Most who are open minded about this would agree that, just because something is recorded perfectly, layered heavily, etc. doesn't mean that it can't embody exceptional artistic attributes, including human emotion and feeling.

[jimmythegent]

hey, did I not state emphatically that the views I expressed were my opinion? Yes I did, so saying I "act as if my views are the law of the universe" is a little unfair methinks

You asked for specific examples of what my views of overproduced were, I provided them. Thats not to say that people don't enjoy those albums,? ?obviously they do as some of those albums have sold in the millions.

Regarding the whole "subjective" term, I think that can be applied to most words/phrases/ideas/concepts don't you? So clutching at the one sidepoint and implying it's the hard and fast point is grasping at straws a little I think.
Youre saying "overproduced" is a convenient way in which record co's etc can market below par recordings (which I referred to as a conspiracy theory, however I didnt quote as verbatim so you're really reaching there when accusing me of "putting words in your mouth"), I'm saying that the existence of over-production is very real (at least for many listeners, some may prefer this sound as you point out, but it doesn't dispell the fact that it turns a lot of people off).

To me it is simple - overproduction is a curse that can be entrenched in an album and it is a very real possibility that CD could suffer this affliction - I wasn't trying to debate or determine peoples tastes - because as you say, peoples tastes are subjective - ranging from the polished studio production sound, to the raw live sound. That is really the subjective part of what we are discussing IMO, not whether overproduction exists or not.

And no, I'm not trying to be an asshole and I've been able to acknowledge points you make -I'm here for good conversation be it debate or sharing of ideas, I'm not here for hostility or name calling. ?

Yes, the term "subjective" applies to to many words/phrases/ideas/concepts, but it is pretentious to insist that one's subjective taste is better than another's. Do you see where I'm coming from?

What people who whine about "overproduction" are doing is tantamount to: if people who like wearing dark colors were to say that bright colors are "oversaturated" and therefore bright clothes should not be made so that we can get rid of the "affliction" that is "oversaturation." It is just as snobbish and ridiculous to claim that strong production, heavy layering, etc. are an "affliction" as it would be to claim that bright colors are an "affliction."

Now, I don't expect you to see where I'm coming from, since you're being such an ideologue about this that nothing is likely to sway you. I mean, you call it a "curse" and an "affliction" and whatnot, one would think you were talking about slavery or cancer or famine, not production. So you and your ilk go on believing what you want to believe. I have no doubt that no matter what CD sounds like, there will be plenty of people who'll throw out stereotypes like "overproduction" and try to stigmatize the album. I will judge it based on the merits of the music. Most who are open minded about this would agree that, just because something is recorded perfectly, layered heavily, etc. doesn't mean that it can't embody exceptional artistic attributes, including human emotion and feeling.

I have not contested that just because it is layered, recorded/played  perfectly etc.. that automatically defines it is as over-produced. I am saying that an over-produced album can bear these hallmarks - see the difference??

I refer you back to my initial post that sparked this debate:

"you make a good point but theres also 'over-prduction' to factor

I want? a polished, complete record, not some thrown together cheaply recorded, poorly mixed album...BUT.... if it's too polished, too layered and too laboured over, that can stifle the human ness and emotion out - so it is a balancing act but still something to be aware of"

Soundgardens 'Superunknown" is a very "produced" sounding, studio album and in my view, it is the better for it. Their following album 'Down on the Upside' is much rawer and is the better for it as well.

I too will judge CD when it comes out and will be the first to state if I feel its a masterpiece. In fact, I am confident it will be an exceptional album. But given Axls been in the studio for this long and been through so many producers etc.. surely the topic of whether or not it has been affected adversly or otherwise due to this, is warranted. And I do see where you are coming from, and have acknowledged that in a polite debate whereas you have not - resorting to labeling my views "pretentious" etc..

That will be my last word on the matter btw