Talk about a sick case - I hope they give her the DP

[Surfrider]

Judges like that give not only liberals a bad name, but humans in general.? That is totally disturbed.? I tend to lean left of center, but my stance on crime is to the right of Genghis Khan's.? While I think the death penalty is useless as a deterrent, this woman should be doing hard time in a nasty prison for the rest of her miserable life.?

That is EXACTLY how I am too.? We seem to be on the same page, we should run for office together hahaha? ? ?

However, as for the DP as a deterrent, I'm not 100% sure I agree with that because nobody is going to come forward and say, "I was going to kill that son of a bitch, but then I realized if I get caught i'd get the DP".? nobody is going to admit to anyone they were close to committing a crime...

I actually somewhat agree with your analysis of the DP, as I have expressed on this board on prior occasions.? Nonetheless, this is one of those cases that makes you attempt to justify retribution.? If people can assure me that someone like this can never ever get out of prison for the rest of their life, I may reassess the merits of the DP.? However, so long as there are idiot judges that will say that people like this are one day rehabilitated, I will not advocate abolishing the DP.

[Guns N RockMusic]

Why is it that anytime someone does something outrageous like this, people call them "crazy" and advocate special treatment like a mental hospital.  Whatever happened to people just being plain "evil" and committing horrendous crimes because they don't think they'll get caught.  This woman isn't mentally challenged, nor is she a child who could not understand or distinguish between right and wrong.  I have no sympathy for this piece of shit.  I wish nothing but pain and suffering on her as her child will be traumatized for the rest of her life.  If this woman was truly sorry for what she did, she'd off herself as no self-respecting person could live with the shame and guilt.

[25]

so prison positive outcome is : they are not a threat
forced work : they are not a threat AND they create value

you do the math

"Forced" labor (slavery, I think it's actually called) is a violation of human rights as agreed upon by, you know, all of the civilized nations of the world. It's not something that you visit upon the citizens of your own country just for fun and profit. What you're advocating is a dangerous and immature (or at best, poorly thought-out) non-solution. Imprisonment is a natural form of punishment in a free society; You have abused the freedoms granted you by society and so you are denied the opportunity to abuse those freedoms. It is a just punishment. Violation of civil ethics punished by the denial of civil liberties. What you're advocating is a far worse punishment, denial of their basic rights as members of our species. Prisoners do work, or are at least given the opportunity to work, in many prisons. It's their choice whether or not to participate and they're paid a small wage for their efforts.   Enslaving prisoners into forced work gangs is comparitively excessive punishment, has absolutely no rehabilitation value, and is a completely unrelated "solution" to the problem at hand. And if you think it's a safe and productive idea, I suggest reading up on the subject. It was common practice until the dawn of the 20th century and didn't entirely dwindle away until fairly recently. Try googling "convict work gangs" for a taster of how successful the idea hasn't been in the past.   


Hey, here's an even better idea! Let's round up all of the homeless people and force them to work for us! It might be a violation of their rights but it would get them off the streets! Throw in a clean shirt and a free lunch every day, lock them up in sheds overnight. Clothes, food, shelter, their lives will improve immediately. They won't be homeless, and they'll create value! SOLVED!

[25]

Why is it that anytime someone does something outrageous like this, people call them "crazy" and advocate special treatment like a mental hospital.  Whatever happened to people just being plain "evil" and committing horrendous crimes because they don't think they'll get caught.

Yeah, that's the other thing. I don't think that anyone can claim that this woman's behaviour resembles irrational thought. Utterly vile, disgusting thought - but far from insanity. Saying that she's crazy is a cop-out. Some mentally "healthy" people do sick, perverted things. Deal with it. This woman doesn't belong in a hospital, she belongs in a cell. 

[Guns N RockMusic]

Hey, here's an even better idea! Let's round up all of the homeless people and force them to work for us! It might be a violation of their rights but it would get them off the streets! Throw in a clean shirt and a free lunch every day, lock them up in sheds overnight. Clothes, food, shelter, their lives will improve immediately. They won't be homeless, and they'll create value! SOLVED!

Damn, that's a good idea. ?Either that or we could go Patrick Bateman on their ass ?

[25]

Hey, here's an even better idea! Let's round up all of the homeless people and force them to work for us! It might be a violation of their rights but it would get them off the streets! Throw in a clean shirt and a free lunch every day, lock them up in sheds overnight. Clothes, food, shelter, their lives will improve immediately. They won't be homeless, and they'll create value! SOLVED!

Damn, that's a good idea.  Either that or we could go Patrick Bateman on their ass 

It's a solid business solution! Haliburton will be all over that in a second. Hey, maybe we can send all of the prisoners and all of the homeless guys to Iraq! They can help pretend to rebuild the country and double as body armor for the troops! Something for both sides of the aisle there. I'm a uniter. 

[The Dog]

Hey, here's an even better idea! Let's round up all of the homeless people and force them to work for us! It might be a violation of their rights but it would get them off the streets! Throw in a clean shirt and a free lunch every day, lock them up in sheds overnight. Clothes, food, shelter, their lives will improve immediately. They won't be homeless, and they'll create value! SOLVED!

Damn, that's a good idea.  Either that or we could go Patrick Bateman on their ass 

It's a solid business solution! Haliburton will be all over that in a second. Hey, maybe we can send all of the prisoners and all of the homeless guys to Iraq! They can help pretend to rebuild the country and double as body armor for the troops! Something for both sides of the aisle there. I'm a uniter. 

the homeless would just fit in with the native people in Iraq though (no homes, no jobs, no security)....then they'd just be recruited into the ranks of Al Queda 

[GeorgeSteele]

The retribution vs. rehabilitation debate has been around forever. ?My guess is that most people are in favor of a combination of both. ?

In this case, what if 1 year into her sentence there is a scientific/medical breakthrough whereby through some pill or otherwise this woman can be instantly converted into a fine upstanding citizen, where not only would she never be a threat to anyone, she would be a great asset to her community. ?Should she be immediately released from prison?

[25]

In this case, what if 1 year into her sentence there is a scientific/medical breakthrough whereby through some pill or otherwise this woman can be instantly converted into a fine upstanding citizen, where not only would she never be a threat to anyone, she would be a great asset to her community. Should she be immediately released from prison?

No. Make her take the pill first. Duh.
That's the kind of oversight that's going to ruin the magic pill's reputation.

[GeorgeSteele]

In this case, what if 1 year into her sentence there is a scientific/medical breakthrough whereby through some pill or otherwise this woman can be instantly converted into a fine upstanding citizen, where not only would she never be a threat to anyone, she would be a great asset to her community. Should she be immediately released from prison?

No. Make her take the pill first. Duh.
That's the kind of oversight that's going to ruin the magic pill's reputation.

Good one, but you forgot the snare drum.  I should go to prison for that mistake.  Anyway...

[Guns N RockMusic]

The retribution vs. rehabilitation debate has been around forever. ?My guess is that most people are in favor of a combination of both. ?

In this case, what if 1 year into her sentence there is a scientific/medical breakthrough whereby through some pill or otherwise this woman can be instantly converted into a fine upstanding citizen, where not only would she never be a threat to anyone, she would be a great asset to her community. ?Should she be immediately released from prison?

No, because what's stopping me from going on a crime spree knowing that I'll be forced to take the pill and be released.  I could make a fortune doing talk shows and books because I killed 80 toddlers before I was "redeemed."  Since we hold everyone to the same standard, you can't whipe the slate clean because now they know better.  If Ted Bundy had a vision from God and repented all he did, would you let him out?

[25]

No, because what's stopping me from going on a crime spree knowing that I'll be forced to take the pill and be released.  I could make a fortune doing talk shows and books because I killed 80 toddlers before I was "redeemed."

Okay, new rule, you can't have the magic pill if you kill 80 toddlers. That's going way too far. I'm drawing the line at 43.



The "magic pill" idea is fundamentally flawed on two levels;

1) Knowing that what you did was wrong doesn't make it retroactively not happen. The fact that, in hindsight, maybe you wouldn't have killed so many people (or whichever crime you like) isn't grounds for appeal. I'm sure that many people in prison wish they'd had better impulse control.
2) It's not a quandry that can be effectively argued because NO-ONE WILL EVER CREATE THAT PILL. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think that we, as a people, can collectively agree to cross that bridge when we come to it.

[GeorgeSteele]

The retribution vs. rehabilitation debate has been around forever. ?My guess is that most people are in favor of a combination of both. ?

In this case, what if 1 year into her sentence there is a scientific/medical breakthrough whereby through some pill or otherwise this woman can be instantly converted into a fine upstanding citizen, where not only would she never be a threat to anyone, she would be a great asset to her community. ?Should she be immediately released from prison?

No, because what's stopping me from going on a crime spree knowing that I'll be forced to take the pill and be released.? I could make a fortune doing talk shows and books because I killed 80 toddlers before I was "redeemed."? Since we hold everyone to the same standard, you can't whipe the slate clean because now they know better.? If Ted Bundy had a vision from God and repented all he did, would you let him out?

Well Ted Bundy was executed and I don't think he saw much of God... rather, I'm pretty sure he's hanging with the real Randall Flagg these days.

[GeorgeSteele]

No, because what's stopping me from going on a crime spree knowing that I'll be forced to take the pill and be released.? I could make a fortune doing talk shows and books because I killed 80 toddlers before I was "redeemed."

Okay, new rule, you can't have the magic pill if you kill 80 toddlers. That's going way too far. I'm drawing the line at 43.



The "magic pill" idea is fundamentally flawed on two levels;

1) Knowing that what you did was wrong doesn't make it retroactively not happen. The fact that, in hindsight, maybe you wouldn't have killed so many people (or whichever crime you like) isn't grounds for appeal. I'm sure that many people in prison wish they'd had better impulse control.
2) It's not a quandry that can be effectively argued because NO-ONE WILL EVER CREATE THAT PILL. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think that we, as a people, can collectively agree to cross that bridge when we come to it.

Well, nothing can be done to make it retroactively not happen.

And, no, it won't ever happen, but do you think it impossible that inmates with life sentences can be genuinely rehabilitated?? If it is possible, does that mean that people are released at the point of rehabilitation or do they need to suffer the punishment originally doled out?

[25]

do you think it impossible that inmates with life sentences can be genuinely rehabilitated?  If it is possible, does that mean that people are released at the point of rehabilitation or do they need to suffer the punishment originally doled out?

I don't think that these are hard questions to answer, or at least not moral stumpers. Some criminals can be rehabilitated, some can't. There's no way to know which ones are which until they're released, and that's a pretty huge flaw. Certain types of criminal are more likely to re-offend (such as career criminals and sex offenders) and I'm sure that's taken into account both in the sentencing and parole process. That aspect of system is about as scientifically accurate as it's going to get (or, in other words, it's a delicate esoteric art - or a sixth-grader's lab experiment).

The punishment is based on the type and severity of the crime. If someone is convicted and goes through all of their appeals and is still staring down the barrel of a life sentence without parole then yes, they should serve their time. You don't end up in that situation just because the judges think it's funny to see the look on your face, you've usually earned it.

I don't see why so many people are so eager to look at alternatives to imprisonment. Sure, on one side you have the people who complain about the cost of keeping dangerous criminals behind bars, but those people are plain stupid. What I don't understand is the people who want other options for the sake of options. The system of punishment that we have is good.  The death penalty is questionable, and parole is hit and miss, but the prison part works just as it's supposed to. High walls, big locks. It's simple and effective. 

[Surfrider]

Interesting hypo Steele.? May I also comment, the effect on the victims and family of the victims of having that person back out on the street - even if there is absolute assurance that the person will never commit a crime again - may be a basis to keep that person in prison for reasons other than pure retribution.

[polluxlm]

Put her in a male prison. That should teach her.

[SLCPUNK]

I don't see why so many people are so eager to look at alternatives to imprisonment.

Probably because imprisonment has shown not to work.

[Sin Cut]

i kill her so _____ i feel good ? she won't hurt anymore ?
i put her in prison so ______ she feels bad and i can laugh at it?
i put her in a mental institute and try to help here change so _______ i've changed something ?

[...]

you steal a car ? we send you 3 months in africa and you make food for a village and clean their shit.
at least the world get something out of it.

People go to prison as punishment for their crimes. Positive side-effect; for the duration of their sentence they're not a threat to their victims or the general public.  How is that a bad thing?

And that last sentence you wrote might just be the silliest idea I've ever seen expressed on the issue of crime and punishment. "Yeah, make 'em work at a car-wash in des moines for six months, that'll achieve. . . something!"

the idea how having her removed from society so she does not commit other crime is
1- natural, any kind of solution (prison, institute, forced work abroad) does it
2- so it's not the property of the prison system.


so prison positive outcome is : they are not a threat
forced work : they are not a threat AND they create value

you do the math

prison and DP comes from an old need of human beings to be closer to god. they process the will of god on earth.

just watch the reaction of people when they hear the sentence of a criminals: " oh man ! im so happy !! he got what he deserved !! "

deep inside we are scared. and seeing a criminal paying for his crime in a ruthless way, makes us more safe, as a society. it's all about " getting back at someone" and as we know
getting back at someone does not bring anything but .... a sinful pleasure.

Now you can't be serious! Just have yourself stand in the kids shoes. I'm pretty sure a part you want to pay back.

And also, you don't want that to happen to anyone else.

How come, even dog has morals, take a dog who sees something "wrong" and it will pull it's leash and bark and if it get's loose I doubt it will attack the little girl.

And someone doing this has not.

Ask 1000 people their oppinnion about this and the majority will want to put these motherfuckers down. And I, for a fact, despise people like this share our genepool.

[Where is Hassan Nasrallah ?]

i kill her so _____ i feel good ? she won't hurt anymore ?
i put her in prison so ______ she feels bad and i can laugh at it?
i put her in a mental institute and try to help here change so _______ i've changed something ?

[...]

you steal a car ? we send you 3 months in africa and you make food for a village and clean their shit.
at least the world get something out of it.

People go to prison as punishment for their crimes. Positive side-effect; for the duration of their sentence they're not a threat to their victims or the general public.  How is that a bad thing?

And that last sentence you wrote might just be the silliest idea I've ever seen expressed on the issue of crime and punishment. "Yeah, make 'em work at a car-wash in des moines for six months, that'll achieve. . . something!"

the idea how having her removed from society so she does not commit other crime is
1- natural, any kind of solution (prison, institute, forced work abroad) does it
2- so it's not the property of the prison system.


so prison positive outcome is : they are not a threat
forced work : they are not a threat AND they create value

you do the math

prison and DP comes from an old need of human beings to be closer to god. they process the will of god on earth.

just watch the reaction of people when they hear the sentence of a criminals: " oh man ! im so happy !! he got what he deserved !! "

deep inside we are scared. and seeing a criminal paying for his crime in a ruthless way, makes us more safe, as a society. it's all about " getting back at someone" and as we know
getting back at someone does not bring anything but .... a sinful pleasure.

Now you can't be serious! Just have yourself stand in the kids shoes. I'm pretty sure a part you want to pay back.

And also, you don't want that to happen to anyone else.

How come, even dog has morals, take a dog who sees something "wrong" and it will pull it's leash and bark and if it get's loose I doubt it will attack the little girl.

And someone doing this has not.

Ask 1000 people their oppinnion about this and the majority will want to put these motherfuckers down. And I, for a fact, despise people like this share our genepool.

so we're dogs ?  dmx ?

i know 1000 people would go for it, but hey, people think with emotions. your words sweat emotions and feelings, not reasoning.
when you want to beat up someone, it's not your brain thinking, it's your heart. weakness.

violence has NEVER EVER solved anything ... at a macroscopic level.