U.S. commander warns against Iraq cutoff

[SLCPUNK]

They have failed to sell their policies and counter the baseless accusations against them.  If Bush could utter a coherent sentence, he could probably make out the case that our intentions in the middle east are noble.

LOL, I see now, it's all a poor PR campaign. Nobody can see how noble we are because Bush isn't good at closing the deal. 

On the contrary I think they have sold their policies quite well: An illegal war brought on with trumped up charges, lying to the world, torture, secret US prisons, and an ever changing reason of why we are there in the first place. People around the world see that, and understand it pretty darn well.

[Surfrider]

Very neat and untidy.

There are no winners in war.
The greatest losers so far is USA.

The greatest losers in this war are the 600,000 dead Iraqi civilians who have been slaughtered since we went in.

The winnner: IRAN.

True. But we cannot say that USA has been the worlds most belowed country since the start of the "Iraq Adventures".
Almost all arabs hates USA.
Thats alotta arabs. And they do not only hate Bush, the hate the nation and its citizens.
And the US acting has been condemned by people all around the globe damaging US foreign politics.

I no, I agree with you. The NIE report has pretty much said that we have really done it to ourselves at this point. Iraq has created more hate towards the USA around the globe, recruited more terrorists, made us less safe in the long run.

Certainly the rhetoric coming out of our own countries regarding the baseless contentions about the true motives for the war has contributed to the arab's hatred of Americans.? Most importantly, however, is this administrations absolute failure on the public relations front.

I don't think they are totally baseless contentions.

I am not sure what you mean by totally. ?The use of that word is vague in the sentence you wrote. ?Are you saying they are somewhat baseless? ?If so, wouldn't that be argument against making them considering the repercussions they are sure to have?

We said we were going for WMDs....there were none.?

Agreed. ?This is an absolute indisputable fact.

Its pretty clear now there was a neo-con agenda to bring democracy to the arab middle east and establish a US friendly, oil rich state.

I agree with everyting but the oil part. ?What evidence do you have that our agenda was to create a friendly oil rich state? ??

This war hasn't helped fight the war on terror, its created more terror(ists).

I think this is a disputable fact. ?You may be right. ?However, this kind of begs the question of why it is creating more terrorists?

[MCT]

Are you a culture warrior?

No, are you?

Yes. But not in the way you're thinking.

Thank you for your time.

Obligatory third line.

[SLCPUNK]

I think this is a disputable fact.  You may be right.  However, this kind of begs the question of why it is creating more terrorists?

There is nothing disputable about it.

Top intelligence officials have come forward to say that it has.

Reports also say why it is creating more terrorists.

The fact that Cheney's secret energy task force wanted in Iraq well before 9-11 does it for me. The maps showing a breakdown of a post sanction Iraq, which also showed nothing for the USA certainly helps make a case. USA needed a regime change in order to get their hands on that oil. Bush's corporate interests have already made billions from this war as well, more specifically: Halliburton.

[Surfrider]

I think this is a disputable fact.? You may be right.? However, this kind of begs the question of why it is creating more terrorists?

There is nothing disputable about it.

Top intelligence officials have come forward to say that it has.

Reports also say why it is creating more terrorists.

The fact that Cheney's secret energy task force wanted in Iraq well before 9-11 does it for me. The maps showing a breakdown of a post sanction Iraq, which also showed nothing for the USA certainly helps make a case. USA needed a regime change in order to get their hands on that oil. Bush's corporate interests have already made billions from this war as well, more specifically: Halliburton.

I think you are naive if yout think such rhetoric doesn't contribute to the hatred against America.  Knowing that is the case, people should be more careful before they spit out their assumption and speculation as fact.

[The Dog]

I think this is a disputable fact.  You may be right.  However, this kind of begs the question of why it is creating more terrorists?

There is nothing disputable about it.

Top intelligence officials have come forward to say that it has.

Reports also say why it is creating more terrorists.

The fact that Cheney's secret energy task force wanted in Iraq well before 9-11 does it for me. The maps showing a breakdown of a post sanction Iraq, which also showed nothing for the USA certainly helps make a case. USA needed a regime change in order to get their hands on that oil. Bush's corporate interests have already made billions from this war as well, more specifically: Halliburton.

I think you are naive if yout think such rhetoric doesn't contribute to the hatred against America.  Knowing that is the case, people should be more careful before they spit out their assumption and speculation as fact.

Oh GIVE ME A BREAK!  You sound like one of these idiots who says "if you don't support the war, you dont' support the troops and you're not american!!!".  Maybe all that "rhetoric" IS the reason the US is so hated right now.  Ever think some people who hate us actually might have a legit reason for doing so!?!??!

Telling someone to "be more careful" about what they say? .....I'm really speechless. 

[Surfrider]

I think this is a disputable fact.? You may be right.? However, this kind of begs the question of why it is creating more terrorists?

There is nothing disputable about it.

Top intelligence officials have come forward to say that it has.

Reports also say why it is creating more terrorists.

The fact that Cheney's secret energy task force wanted in Iraq well before 9-11 does it for me. The maps showing a breakdown of a post sanction Iraq, which also showed nothing for the USA certainly helps make a case. USA needed a regime change in order to get their hands on that oil. Bush's corporate interests have already made billions from this war as well, more specifically: Halliburton.

I think you are naive if yout think such rhetoric doesn't contribute to the hatred against America.? Knowing that is the case, people should be more careful before they spit out their assumption and speculation as fact.

Oh GIVE ME A BREAK!? You sound like one of these idiots who says "if you don't support the war, you dont' support the troops and you're not american!!!".? Maybe all that "rhetoric" IS the reason the US is so hated right now.? Ever think some people who hate us actually might have a legit reason for doing so!?!??!

Telling someone to "be more careful" about what they say? .....I'm really speechless.?

I think you need to read more carefully.? I think it's legit to condemn the war and to condemn the President for entering into the war.? I think it is absolutely legit to criticize the current strategy or whether we should have entered the war in the first place.? The problem I have is people making statements about the motivations for entering the war that are not supported by any facts.? Yes, I do think people think our motivation for entering the war was an evil one and not a noble one.? I do think that affects the level of hatred against the United States.? Please don't misconstrue what I am saying.?

[The Dog]

Without getting into another Iraq war rehash thread lets be honest here....were the intentions "evil"...no. only a fool would think that.  were the motives NOT the ones we were told, absolutely....  Actually now that I read that again, its pretty much lying...which in some circles is considered "evil".  Its a strong word and not one I would use but lying is certainly not moral or "good". 

The neo cons had their agenda, it might not be written down but if you want to talk about being naive, then lets cut through the crap and read between the lines - this was all about a US presence in the middle east, spreading democracry and oil. 

[SLCPUNK]

The neo cons had their agenda, it might not be written down but if you want to talk about being naive, then lets cut through the crap and read between the lines - this was all about a US presence in the middle east, spreading democracry and oil. 

They certainly had their agenda. It is pretty obvious to those who aren't defending them.

[Bud Fox]

The experts said that the war would be quick and easy. The experts said that Iraqi?s would quickly embrace democracy. The experts said that we would use Iraqi oil to pay for the war and reconstruction.

Now the Bush Experts are saying that if we pull out then there will be chaos and turmoil. With the track record of Bush?s Experts, there is no reason not to pull out since they have not been correct even once.

[Surfrider]

The neo cons had their agenda, it might not be written down but if you want to talk about being naive, then lets cut through the crap and read between the lines - this was all about a US presence in the middle east, spreading democracry and oil.?

They certainly had their agenda. It is pretty obvious to those who aren't defending them.

Yet, that obviousness is only supported by conclusory statements.  And for your information, I am not supporting them.  They have made too many mistakes to retain my support. 

[SLCPUNK]

They certainly had their agenda. It is pretty obvious to those who aren't defending them.

Yet, that obviousness is only supported by conclusory statements.

The pre 9-11 maps of Iraq were forced out of Cheney's hands when he was dragged to court. The maps cleary show they were looking at Iraq for oil.

[Surfrider]

How come we are not using that oil?  How come we did not take it?  How come they are not even at the capacity in distributing oil that they were during the war?  How come we have spent far more money on the war then we have received from the oil there?

[SLCPUNK]

How come we are not using that oil?  How come we did not take it?  How come they are not even at the capacity in distributing oil that they were during the war?  How come we have spent far more money on the war then we have received from the oil there?

We certainly have set ourselves up to get the oil in the future. Something those maps of Cheney's showed that we clearly were not in line to get. Not without a regime change.

[Surfrider]

How come we are not using that oil?? How come we did not take it?? How come they are not even at the capacity in distributing oil that they were during the war?? How come we have spent far more money on the war then we have received from the oil there?

We certainly have set ourselves up to get the oil in the future. Something those maps of Cheney's showed that we clearly were not in line to get. Not without a regime change.

Again, pure speculation.  Whether you agree or not, making such allegations with such minimal evidence hurts the perception of the United States by those overseas.  The rhetoric and unsupported allegations are definately a part of what drives the rage. 

[The Dog]

How come we are not using that oil?  How come we did not take it?  How come they are not even at the capacity in distributing oil that they were during the war?  How come we have spent far more money on the war then we have received from the oil there?

We certainly have set ourselves up to get the oil in the future. Something those maps of Cheney's showed that we clearly were not in line to get. Not without a regime change.

Again, pure speculation.  Whether you agree or not, making such allegations with such minimal evidence hurts the perception of the United States by those overseas.  The rhetoric and unsupported allegations are definately a part of what drives the rage. 

I think its the actions, not the words, that fuel the worlds hatred for the US.

[Surfrider]

How come we are not using that oil?? How come we did not take it?? How come they are not even at the capacity in distributing oil that they were during the war?? How come we have spent far more money on the war then we have received from the oil there?

We certainly have set ourselves up to get the oil in the future. Something those maps of Cheney's showed that we clearly were not in line to get. Not without a regime change.

Again, pure speculation.? Whether you agree or not, making such allegations with such minimal evidence hurts the perception of the United States by those overseas.? The rhetoric and unsupported allegations are definately a part of what drives the rage.?

I think its the actions, not the words, that fuel the worlds hatred for the US.

Certainly the actions don't help, but these people are looking for a reason to act out against the United States.? Giving them such reasons that have little basis in fact is irresponsible.

[SLCPUNK]

Again, pure speculation.  Whether you agree or not, making such allegations with such minimal evidence hurts the perception of the United States by those overseas.  The rhetoric and unsupported allegations are definately a part of what drives the rage. 

After all the lies Bush sold you guys you still lie to yourself about the motive?

Cheney did not want to give the maps of Iraq up for a reason. He was dragged into court over it, and forced through the freedom of information act to give them up.

Yea, it's my "unsupported allegations" that create the rage.  It couldn't be that Bush's war has killed over half a million people in Iraq now could it? Nah..........it must be guys like me who make up these crazy stories of a couple of oil guys who go into an oil rich country after drawing up maps that show where all the oil is. Yea guys like me cause all the outrage against your country.

What a joke.

[Surfrider]

Again, pure speculation.? Whether you agree or not, making such allegations with such minimal evidence hurts the perception of the United States by those overseas.? The rhetoric and unsupported allegations are definately a part of what drives the rage.?

After all the lies Bush sold you guys you still lie to yourself about the motive?

I work with facts.? You never seem to have many to support your theories.

Cheney did not want to give the maps of Iraq up for a reason. He was dragged into court over it, and forced through the freedom of information act to give them up.

The issue of providing clasified information is much more complicated than you present it.? Let me ask you this, assuming arguendo that you are correct in that the maps prove that they were considering oil as a possible motivation to enter Iraq, were you making your allegations about the motivations for the war prior to the release of the maps?? I am guessing that your theory came before your supposed facts.

Yea, it's my "unsupported allegations" that create the rage.?

Roll your eyes all you want, but I think people like you are extremely irresponsible especially considering that we currently have troops that have to deal the repercussions of the rage.? Do people like you cause all of the rage, no.? Does it contribute?? Yes.? Read all of my posts in this thread.? Don't generalize and misquote me.

It couldn't be that Bush's war has killed over half a million people in Iraq now could it? Nah..........it must be guys like me who make up these crazy stories of a couple of oil guys who go into an oil rich country after drawing up maps that show where all the oil is. Yea guys like me cause all the outrage against your country.

This is the extent of your support.? You are speculating about what the maps were for.? I could also give you other reasons.? Considering that we have done nothing to take the oil, your argument seems to be competely incorrect.

What a joke.

Keep laughing.? I think it is terrible that people are mislead about our motivations for going into Iraq.? Again, neither me nor you are on the ground dealing with the repurcussions of that.

[SLCPUNK]

I work with facts.  You never seem to have many to support your theories.

Could have fooled me.

Me too...........where were those WMD again?

The issue of providing clasified information is much more complicated than you present it.  Let me ask you this, assuming arguendo that you are correct in that the maps prove that they were considering oil as a possible motivation to enter Iraq, were you making your allegations about the motivations for the war prior to the release of the maps?  I am guessing that your theory came before your supposed facts.

First of all it was not classified. He just wasn't giving it up, there is a difference.

Second they were looking at Iraq before 9-11, that is a fact.

I was dumbfounded to why they would go into Iraq, but I was against it since the claims were without merit and Saddam was co-operating. It was Bush who kicked the inspectors out.

Roll your eyes all you want, but I think people like you are extremely irresponsible especially considering that we currently have troops that have to deal the repercussions of the rage.  Do people like you cause all of the rage, no.  Does it contribute?  Yes.  Read all of my posts in this thread.  Don't generalize and misquote me.

 I'll say whatever I want. It has been reported that Iraq has created more terrorists and made us less safe. Coming from the top of the intelligence community. Not one mention was made however that people like me are making our troops less safe. For somebody who pretends to like facts you sure like to forget them real quick.

This is the extent of your support.  You are speculating about what the maps were for.  I could also give you other reasons.  Considering that we have done nothing to take the oil, your argument seems to be competely incorrect.

What to you think they were for ? Condos? Every city was stripped off the map and all that was shown were areas marked off for oil reserves, exploration and refineries. Again, I will repeat myself for the 1000th time: the future oil contracts, not the oil now. Why do you keep making up fake arguments to tear down? I have said for years: future oil and oil contracts.

Keep laughing.  I think it is terrible that people are mislead about our motivations for going into Iraq.  Again, neither me nor you are on the ground dealing with the repurcussions of that.

I will keep laughing at the morons on the side. The group that bashed me all along, that now turned out to be dead wrong about Iraq. That change their user names so they can now speak out against Bush and claim they never supported him. Too cowardly to admit they changed their mind. Too cowardly to admit that they may have been wrong. Yet no matter what, at all costs will always do their best to try and accuse me of "hurting the troops" or "creating outrage" by using my freedom of speech to point out facts.

Maybe if you guys could pull your head out of the sand long enough you may learn something. Bush was wrong about everything, yet I was right about everything. Yet here you are still saying the same crap you were the last 4 years. Wake the fuck up man.