North Korea detonates nuclear weapon

[The Dog]

North Korea HATES the US (more then the average person in the world that is).  They'd be happy to sell to a terrorist cell.  I'm sure they've already gotten calls.

"Grr, those fucking yankees. I hate them more than average person, thus I am willing to gamble with my life and  the existance of my own country by selling a Nuke to terrorists of whom i don't give a fuck.  All this in hopes  of causing some good ol massive but very local damage to some random American-infested location somewhere. That'll teach em!"

kinda like flying planes into buildings??? 

Iraq thought they could take on the coalition in 92 after invading Kuwait, Al Quada and the Taliban thought they could beat us when we went to afghanistan after 9-11......You think Kim Jong is any saner then those guys?

Whether he's sane or not, he's a survivor, he isn't going to waste all his years in power by giving a nuke to a terrorist group.

Analogies with Iraq in '92 don't really hold water since Hussein was a US ally at the time and rightly or wrongly had inferred that the US wouldn't intervene if he invaded Kuwait, and (another survivor) he probably had a lot more years in power from fighting it out, than if he'd shown internal weakness and withdrawn at that point.

I'm pretty sure Al Qaeda thinks they are winning, and they're probably correct and they aren't a nation state so that analogy doesn't really hold either.

I don't think the Taliban thought they could win, yet somehow thay have anyway if Frist's comment of last week is anything to go by - he wants to bring them back into the Afghan government.

I don't think for a second Hussein thought we wouldn't attack if Kuwait was invaded.  He knew a war was coming and he thought he could beat us.  At the time Iraq's army was huge.  he simply under estimated our air power.  You are 100% right that he was a survivor, and yet he still started a war knowing we'd bring the pain.

I was also referring to post 9-11 afghanistan, not post Iraq.  We pretty much attacked and took the Taliban out of power.  Afghanistan was the HQ of osama and al queda.  they thought they would defeat us the same way they defeated the russians.  it was their plan to make us bring the fight to them. again, they under estimated our fighthing force.  however, they got the fight they wanted in iraq.  that war is now interfering with the fighthing in afghanistan as our resources are stretched now.

i would agree though, the US is def not winning the war right now.

If Kim Jong is a true survivor, he would not have developed a nuclear weapons program (the same way sadamm didn't).  War in iraq or not, the world will not be happy about this and I hope a message is sent.

[AtariLegend]

Can't we all just agree on love, peace, and no weapons?

[sjgotnitro]

North Korea HATES the US (more then the average person in the world that is). They'd be happy to sell to a terrorist cell. I'm sure they've already gotten calls.

"Grr, those fucking yankees. I hate them more than average person, thus I am willing to gamble with my life and the existance of my own country by selling a Nuke to terrorists of whom i don't give a fuck. All this in hopes of causing some good ol massive but very local damage to some random American-infested location somewhere. That'll teach em!"

kinda like flying planes into buildings???

Iraq thought they could take on the coalition in 92 after invading Kuwait, Al Quada and the Taliban thought they could beat us when we went to afghanistan after 9-11......You think Kim Jong is any saner then those guys?

Until you live outside the US, you don't live in the real world?

Talking out your ass now.

And your an authority how.

[sjgotnitro]

Can't we all just agree on love, peace, and no weapons?

Oh you kick the us in the balls with your comments now with your love peace post we are to just go quietly into the night. I think not.

[AtariLegend]

North Korea HATES the US (more then the average person in the world that is). They'd be happy to sell to a terrorist cell. I'm sure they've already gotten calls.

"Grr, those fucking yankees. I hate them more than average person, thus I am willing to gamble with my life and the existance of my own country by selling a Nuke to terrorists of whom i don't give a fuck. All this in hopes of causing some good ol massive but very local damage to some random American-infested location somewhere. That'll teach em!"

kinda like flying planes into buildings???

Iraq thought they could take on the coalition in 92 after invading Kuwait, Al Quada and the Taliban thought they could beat us when we went to afghanistan after 9-11......You think Kim Jong is any saner then those guys?

Until you live outside the US, you don't live in the real world?

Talking out your ass now.

And your an authority how.

American?

[The Dog]

Can't we all just agree on love, peace, and no weapons?

Oh you kick the us in the balls with your comments now with your love peace post we are to just go quietly into the night. I think not.

Don't let that bother you - this is a good thread, dont' let him turn it into a "the US sucks" thread and get it locked.  Anyone with a brain knows that is just nonsense he is spewing anyways.

[AtariLegend]

Can't we all just agree on love, peace, and no weapons?

Oh you kick the us in the balls with your comments now with your love peace post we are to just go quietly into the night. I think not.

Don't let that bother you - this is a good thread, dont' let him turn it into a "the US sucks" thread and get it locked. Anyone with a brain knows that is just nonsense he is spewing anyways.

I didn't say the US sucks, I spend alot of time watching US Tv shows, and drinking Coke.

My original point was supposed to be why does it have to mean war?

[sjgotnitro]

Can't we all just agree on love, peace, and no weapons?

Oh you kick the us in the balls with your comments now with your love peace post we are to just go quietly into the night. I think not.

Don't let that bother you - this is a good thread, dont' let him turn it into a "the US sucks" thread and get it locked.? Anyone with a brain knows that is just nonsense he is spewing anyways.

You are correct. Point taken

I think it is a very sad day that N. Korea has nukes. And I'm sure Iran is not to far behind. Regardless of which country or point of view on politics it is a bad situation. People can blame who ever or whatever but it will not change things.

The more countries that have nukes just raises the chances that someday sooner than later one being detonated.

[GeraldFord]

So what if they have the bomb? I can see why they would, as that's insurance against a US invasion. Why should the US dictate who has the bomb and who doesn't? Israel, India and Pakistan all have the bomb.

 

I mean...wow

When North Korea sells a few to the local Al Quaeda cell and City X is redecorated in radiative green i hope you live just long enough to understand the significance of this day

Or when the US sells weapons to Iraq (in the 80s) or Israel (presently) which are used to kill innocent civilians.

[sjgotnitro]

Can't we all just agree on love, peace, and no weapons?

Oh you kick the us in the balls with your comments now with your love peace post we are to just go quietly into the night. I think not.

Don't let that bother you - this is a good thread, dont' let him turn it into a "the US sucks" thread and get it locked. Anyone with a brain knows that is just nonsense he is spewing anyways.

I didn't say the US sucks, I spend alot of time watching US Tv shows, and drinking Coke.

My original point was supposed to be why does it have to mean war?

It does not mean war it just means a rogue state with a nuke that has a dictator that is crazy enough to use it that is all or sell one on the black market to another country or group that will use it.

There are terrorist all over the world that would love to get there hands on that material, if they already haven't. I personally think europe is no safer than the us. Just look at the past year or so. ?

I'm an american I a feel perfectly safe with china and russia having nukes becuase they would never do something becuase they know it would only hurt them also, but these other crazy places with extreme politics or religions now they would not even think twice of killing anyone.

[AtariLegend]

Some people just get jumpy, when they know what the US can do.

[The Dog]

kinda like flying planes into buildings???

Iraq thought they could take on the coalition in 92 after invading Kuwait, Al Quada and the Taliban thought they could beat us when we went to afghanistan after 9-11......You think Kim Jong is any saner then those guys?

IMO It's not a good idea to start comparing suicide bombers and fundies on Jihad and leaders of sovereign(yet utterly fucked up) governments.
Entirely different interests,motives responsibilities,  rulesets and whatnot. Come on.They don't even play the same game, so to speak.

Iraq certainly didn't think it could "take on the coalition" If Hussein had believed the US&co would react on the scale they did, they wouldn't have invaded Kuwait in the first place. Hussein hoped, and was lead to believe he'd  survive with frowns when it comes to reactions of post cold war west.
American ambassador Glaspie to Hussein slightly before Iraq's invasion of Kuwait:"We have no opinion on the Arab-Arab conflicts, like your border disagreement with Kuwait."

Maybe there is too much fear mongering going on in USA?
So many seem to think that everyone who fears/hates USA is out there with this mad dog "I want to see em all DEAD no matter the cost!!" - attitude.

If North Korea really wanted war and thought they'd be able to "take USA" in some sort of all out offensive conflict, why on earth have they waited all this time? They've had enough conventional and very powerfull altirillerity to vaporize Soul and most of US bases in Korea for several decades now?

I agree about the fear mongering.  What I was trying to say initially was that the real threats, north korea and iran, have had time to build up their programs b/c of iraq (which wasn't really a threat to anyone).  So now that they have successfully tested, its just alarming to know that now there is a REAL threat out there and we are too deep into Iraq to do much about it if we had to.  we also have no rep left in the world which is really crucial if we ask the world to rally behind us.  its just a huge mess with potentially deadly serious repurcussions.  I fully expect the Reps to use this to their advantage and bang the fear drums some more, especially to take the spotlight off the Foley case. While americans LOVE a good sex scandal, we are big scaredy cats at heart and love having the shit scared out of us...reps are REALLY good at doing that too! 

[LeftToDecay]

I don't think for a second Hussein thought we wouldn't attack if Kuwait was invaded.  He knew a war was coming and he thought he could beat us.  At the time Iraq's army was huge.  he simply under estimated our air power.  You are 100% right that he was a survivor, and yet he still started a war knowing we'd bring the pain.

A nation doesn't invade another unless they feel achieved gain is far  greater than the cost of the war. Hussein would not have attacked if they had believed they have to face ground forces and "full out" military operation by  US&Co.  I have never heard anythign that would suggest otherwise?

Nuclear weapons have done wonders when it comes to stabilizing relations ever since WWII.It's true that North Korea is a country like no other and them having Nukes blows.
Yet, their politics have been all about surviving and leeching west for decades. They are very ready for total war if they feel USA/South Korea/anyone else is directly threatening their existance but ehhh. Do they have any delusions of uniting Koreas via military force anymore?
I just can't imagine any mushroom clouds rising cause of this.

[AtariLegend]

A logical statment.

[TAP]

I don't think for a second Hussein thought we wouldn't attack if Kuwait was invaded. 

I guess we will agree to disagree on this point. There seems to be a lot of (maybe circumstantial) evidence that the US ambassador to Iraq at the time, April Glassby, passed on a message to Iraq that the US wouldn't intervene in regional disputes - and the invasion was because of a regional oil dispute.

I was also referring to post 9-11 afghanistan, not post Iraq.  We pretty much attacked and took the Taliban out of power.  Afghanistan was the HQ of osama and al queda.  they thought they would defeat us the same way they defeated the russians.  it was their plan to make us bring the fight to them. again, they under estimated our fighthing force.  however, they got the fight they wanted in iraq.  that war is now interfering with the fighthing in afghanistan as our resources are stretched now.

I don't know how you can definitively say what AQ expected to happen, but I'm sure they are delighted by how things have turned out. And AQ and the Taleban aren't one and the same, it's far from clear that they knew 9/11 would happen - and don't forget that TT offered to deport Bin Laden to a third country and also to try him under Sharia law. Bluffs maybe, but it was said. And in the end, the US/NATO has by no means won, it's pretty much a stalemate in Afghanistan right now with a significant majority of the population prepared to support TT should they prevail.

If Kim Jong is a true survivor, he would not have developed a nuclear weapons program (the same way sadamm didn't).  War in iraq or not, the world will not be happy about this and I hope a message is sent.

Again, we will disagree. North Korea is already totally isolated from the world, and there certainly won't be a military intervention on China's doorstep. What message do you think will be sent and how will it make NK's situation worse?

[LeftToDecay]

 What I was trying to say initially was that the real threats, north korea and iran, have had time to build up their programs b/c of iraq (which wasn't really a threat to anyone). 

Yupp, i hear ya.
But then, committing a pre empitive strike to stop N-Korea from having nukes...Would anything have gone in different wit have happened even if US wasn't tied up in Iraq&Afghanistan? The potential cost of attacking a nuke developing N-Korea would just be so damn huge. Just isn't a  tempting idea:p

[The Dog]

I don't think for a second Hussein thought we wouldn't attack if Kuwait was invaded. 

I guess we will agree to disagree on this point. There seems to be a lot of (maybe circumstantial) evidence that the US ambassador to Iraq at the time, April Glassby, passed on a message to Iraq that the US wouldn't intervene in regional disputes - and the invasion was because of a regional oil dispute.

I was also referring to post 9-11 afghanistan, not post Iraq.  We pretty much attacked and took the Taliban out of power.  Afghanistan was the HQ of osama and al queda.  they thought they would defeat us the same way they defeated the russians.  it was their plan to make us bring the fight to them. again, they under estimated our fighthing force.  however, they got the fight they wanted in iraq.  that war is now interfering with the fighthing in afghanistan as our resources are stretched now.

I don't know how you can definitively say what AQ expected to happen, but I'm sure they are delighted by how things have turned out. And AQ and the Taleban aren't one and the same, it's far from clear that they knew 9/11 would happen - and don't forget that TT offered to deport Bin Laden to a third country and also to try him under Sharia law. Bluffs maybe, but it was said. And in the end, the US/NATO has by no means won, it's pretty much a stalemate in Afghanistan right now with a significant majority of the population prepared to support TT should they prevail.

If Kim Jong is a true survivor, he would not have developed a nuclear weapons program (the same way sadamm didn't).  War in iraq or not, the world will not be happy about this and I hope a message is sent.

Again, we will disagree. North Korea is already totally isolated from the world, and there certainly won't be a military intervention on China's doorstep. What message do you think will be sent and how will it make NK's situation worse?

I think we'lll see sanctions, thats pretty much all that can be done at this point.

i agree about AQ being happy, but only b/c they got iraq.  They wanted us to fight them in Afghanistan, but they got their asses kicked initially.  Its a well known fact they wanted us to come and get them.  like i said before, they beat the russians and thought they could do the same to us.  had we not invaded iraq, i think afghanistan would be more stable and OBL might even be caught.   the spotlight left afghanistan and went to a BS war.  ironically, AQ now has the war they want in iraq and the results seem to be going the same way as they did with russia.  While i don't think we'lll crumble the way they did, the US has definitely been taken down a step or two.

[The Dog]

 What I was trying to say initially was that the real threats, north korea and iran, have had time to build up their programs b/c of iraq (which wasn't really a threat to anyone). 

Yupp, i hear ya.
But then, committing a pre empitive strike to stop N-Korea from having nukes...Would anything have gone in different wit have happened even if US wasn't tied up in Iraq&Afghanistan? The potential cost of attacking a nuke developing N-Korea would just be so damn huge. Just isn't a  tempting idea:p

well, if we had just attacked their nuke facilities by air or special forces then that would have been fine.  a full out invasion like the one in iraq - you are right, prob nothing good out of it.

"regime change" seems to be a pretty shitty tactic.

[TAP]

i agree about AQ being happy, but only b/c they got iraq.  They wanted us to fight them in Afghanistan, but they got their asses kicked initially.  Its a well known fact they wanted us to come and get them. 

Are there well known facts about AQ? I find it pretty hard myself to know what they are thinking when suicide is a weapon of first resort.

[TAP]

well, if we had just attacked their nuke facilities by air or special forces then that would have been fine. 

That's if you know where they are (see Iraq) and China doesn't mind bombing/US military action on its doorstep. I think Special Forces taking out the nuclear program is 100x more complicated than it sounds, and it already sounds really difficult.