Based on what we have heard so far...

[Skinflick]

That was my point although I think Axl has fairly good songwriting skills as well.

Oh absolutely.. ....anyone who disagrees is just looking for a reaction.....or they love "Creed" or something.....?

[axlslover]

if this was their debute album/tour people would be laughin at them

45 year old wigger vocal with a hairy goth guitar player, a 40 year old punk at the bass....

rotfl.

The fact you actually use "rotfl" makes your opinion worthless.

And it's sad that you judge music on the age and looks of the people in the band.

sadly enough this world is full of people that judge in this way..

[Skinflick]

Generally people recognize a band mostly by the singer. But. It's not because te singers would be so out-of-the-world talented but cause people know jack shit about music. They don't understand it all. They're functionally deaf. Some of them (most of them?? ) can't even tell which instrument plays what. They hear it as a mess. But they can understand that the vocalist sings about his tortured soul, past loves, gettin' high etc. And they can reproduce the vocals without any musical knowledge, they can sing it in the bathroom, in the toilet, in the streets. (Well, it'll be out-of-tone as hell, but won't hear it.) They can't do it with an instrument.

Those people who overestimate the importance of the singers should listen to some opera and classical music. Who was the genius: Mozart who wrote everything (instrumental pieces or music & vocals), or the actual primadonna? Most lead singers don't have any clue about music and know some chords at best so they need musicians to write songs or to explore their (singers...) primitive ideas into real songs.

yeah.... that`s madagas`point ? ? ?that`s why axl was so important to gnr?s succes...

I don't think so since he can't write songs alone. One (NR) takes 8 years for him - without the magic solos.?

Axl is a genius but he needs others to write the music.

Music - yes....for the most part....Lyrics - absolutely not.....he needs NO help there.

[requiem156]

That was my point although I think Axl has fairly good songwriting skills as well.

I wouldn't deny that for a second. If anything, I would say that the songwriting team of Axl/Izzy is what was so essential to the early GNR success - a great singer with really strong melodic skills, and knowledge of piano, and a roots rock/punk guitar player with a great mind for riffs. Slash is a good player, but his contribution to the band's success has more to do with his image and stage presence than his playing.

Btw, to the people who are trying to make this another Slash/Buckethead debate, do us all a favor and get bent. It's so damn boring at this point.

[Naupis]

Slash is a good player, but his contribution to the band's success has more to do with his image and stage presence than his playing.

You're smoking crack. The SCOM and NR solos/riffs are both found in the top 20 of almost every "greatest guitar" type poll out there. He might not have been a virtuoso type, but he may be one of the all-time greats at writing catchy/memorable guitar licks.

SCOM officially put Guns on the map, and it was that intro he played.......not his image or stage presence, that attracted people to the song.

[KIKO2K6]

Based on what we have heard so far...Chinese Democracy will kick some serious arses.

[requiem156]

Slash is a good player, but his contribution to the band's success has more to do with his image and stage presence than his playing.

You're smoking crack. The SCOM and NR solos/riffs are both found in the top 20 of almost every "greatest guitar" type poll out there. He might not have been a virtuoso type, but he may be one of the all-time greats at writing catchy/memorable guitar licks.

SCOM officially put Guns on the map, and it was that intro he played.......not his image or stage presence, that attracted people to the song.

Riiight - it was the intro that sold the song, not the vocal melody, chorus, etc. It was the total package, and most importantly, the video that turned people onto the song. Maybe you should put the pipe down first. I'm not putting the guy(Slash) down - he has played some great stuff. I'm not about to get sucked into a debate about anything else, except that polls are a bunch of crap, as we all know, so don't waste your time quoting them to me.

[Naupis]

Riiight - it was the intro that sold the song, not the vocal melody, chorus, etc.

The vocal and the melody were great on the song, but I will bet you even money that if you took a poll of a hundred random people and asked them what stood out most in the song / what is the most memorable part that more than half would say the guitar. Say what you want about polls but that intro is universally regarded as one of the best ever written.

For you to say that Slash's contributions to the band were more about look and image than his playing on Appetite and the Illusions might be the most outrageous thing ever posted on this board.

The post 2002 era of GNR has made many members of the board forget that it is possible to both look like the epitome of a rockstar and play like one.

And I sure hope your logic of a music video selling a song is not gospel otherwise this incarnation of the band is bound to crash and burn. Here I thought it was what comes out of the instruments that really matters. 

[ppbebe]

from what I've heard,  axl's sweet mug on the video did the wonder.
But lets stop beating the dead horse here.

How come we can be disappointed after having felt the damn songs already? unrealistic.
and Common sense?
Instead, use your own ears. Listen to your heart rather than quibbling of the swollen head.
No word would tell it better. If not, so be it. these songs are not for you.

I wonder
How long has it been since you were touched by a piece of music last?   
When was the last time you found yourself bouncing or vibrating with music or even shedding tears of delight? Or Is there anything that goes to your heart at all, other than souvenirs of the good old days?

Remember the sensibility you used to have when you were still pimple faced.

Ha! Piss off with that last comment. yeah because I don't have these over the top expectations of CD or over the top appreciating for the new songs I can't feel music or I've never been moved by music.   What I was getting at here was comparing the new songs to things like Stairway to heaven and Teen Spirit is pretty ridiculous. I can tell you right now that Smells Like Teen Spirit is as popular in the bars today as it was when it was released. Better will never reach those heights. Not even close. Stairway to Heaven is a legendary classic(though I find it boreing) so comparing IRS to it is insane. That's what i'm getting at in terms of people's over the top expectations. If you personally love it than so be it but would it not sound ridiculous to you if I were to say that said song was the next Stairway? hell yes it would and I'd be called on it. Your personal opinion doesn't means songs are "the next" whatever songs you choose to compare it to.

Nor does your personal opinion mean songs are not "the next" whatever songs others choose to compare them to.

As if I'd bring up some unknown songs so that few people here would recognize them.

You've been on about "expectations" but what expectations?
I've already heard the songs that are beyond my expectations although leeked or live recordings. Yep the final cuts are very much anticipated.
If it's about the mass reaction, it depends on the listening public and the promotion. The songs may well reach those "heights" of popularity and I'd say likely as not but that's not my point. 

So You don't dig Stairway no more than IRS. Sure enough.
My focus is on the way each song is loved and appreciated by the people who are not like you.
As this thread is asking how we think someone with no previous knowledge on gnr would take the new songs surfaced so far. I thought my previous post made it abundantly clear.

And I note that I come to think that stairway appealed to the rock fans of the 70s along the similar lines that IRS does and will do to us. IRS has a note of prayer, earnest, ardent and heartrending as the undercurrent. such a quality is scarcely found on other rock tunes than maybe that particular classic.

but I don't love them so don't be questioning my ability to feel or be moved by music because I don't share the sme enthusiasm for these specific songs. If that was indeed what you were insinuating.

nope.
I didn't say that. I'm questioning it because apparently you refer to "common sense" to appreciate music.
as I said if you can't feel the songs, that's fine. or more like none of my business.

nonetheless, your personal opinion doesn't reduce the excellence of these songs an inch.
For side notes, many has reported that better is in high favour of non gnr fans and IRS was in the net charts despite the fact that it was no other than a leaked demo.
Each to their own. still you might find at least a few songs you can love on CD. although I doubt it, to be honest.

So when was the last time you were deeply moved again?

[madagas]

The last time he listened to One Tree Hill....... ps Naupis, you are overestimating that riff a little. I was in college when SCOM broke. Every chick in the world dug that song because of the video and Axl's little snake dance. I'll never forget being at a sorority party and seeing 100 girls dancing on the tables screaming out the lyrics. Now, don't get me wrong, that riff is great, of course Slash didn't even want to record it, but the vocal, lyrics, and video took the song to another level.

[Bono]

So when was the last time you were deeply moved again?

I'm moved everyday by songs ppbebe. I don't have to wait 15 years for new Axl Rose tunes to be moved. a lot of songs off the new Snow Patrol album move me, Neil Young's newest album moved me, City and Colour's album is moving. I'm moved by the new tune on The Music's website homepage. Leaked demos of U2's new songs and david usher's new songs sound very moving. If you wanna know when the last time I was moved by a  new Gn'R song well it was in 2002 at the VMA's when I first heard Madagascar. Nothing new GnR since than has coem close to moving me in any way shape or forum. be it physically bouncing or emotinal connection. the songs just dont; do it for me. they sound generic and empty in terms of emotion from my perspective.

 I never said anythign about needing common sense to appreciate music. I do think there's a lack of common sense on these boards in terms of the overly high expectations for this album in regards to how the general music buying public will recive it. Alot of you say "everyone I know was blown away by the leaks and demos" well who are you showing these songs too? I really tried to push the new songs on my friends. I e-mailed them to my freinds and played them in the car and at parties and asked for their opinions and not one single person said anything remotely positive about these songs. The best response was for Better when a few people said "it's o.k. I guess".  So nobody I know in the general public gave two shits about the new songs. Too me that says alot. Trust me when I say this I REALLY WANT/WANTED to love these new songs and I'ma s much a fan as the old material as anyone so when I find it extremely hard to dig the new songs to sucha  high level I have to belive that alot of people have simply convinced themselves that these songs are amazing. They wanted it so much that they made it so.  I know this will piss some people off and offend some people but I honestly believe a hell of alot of people on these boards are gonna love the album and the songs no matter what simply because it's Axl. It won't be based on the material itself it will be based on who wrote it.I believe that a massive amount of people would not rate these songs at all if they weren't Gn'R. I also believe that a huge amount of people on these boards don't have the ability to be unbiased when it comes to Axl Rose.  I dont say that to be mean I say it because I think it's true.

Alright I'm ready for the "Fuck you Bono! How dare you tell us why we like the songs"  type coments to fly.  Ican deal with it.

[mdttkk]

Slash is a good player, but his contribution to the band's success has more to do with his image and stage presence than his playing.

You're smoking crack. The SCOM and NR solos/riffs are both found in the top 20 of almost every "greatest guitar" type poll out there. He might not have been a virtuoso type, but he may be one of the all-time greats at writing catchy/memorable guitar licks.

SCOM officially put Guns on the map, and it was that intro he played.......not his image or stage presence, that attracted people to the song.

well said watson.  i dont think this lad is entirely wrong though.  i think slash's popularity has alot to do with his image, not everyone knows he wrote the solos and he has kept his affro type hair all these years (for obvious reasons).  so id say slash is 65% writing, 35% image.  afterall if i put a wig on like slash and wore it around everyone would know im trying to copy slash.  and theres one thing that virtuoso guitar players dont know how to do, and thats ROCK! like slash

[Naupis]

Now, don't get me wrong, that riff is great, of course Slash didn't even want to record it, but the vocal, lyrics, and video took the song to another level.

And once again we come back to the "what came first, the chicken or the egg argument?" What is the bigger contribution to the song? The genius needed to create a timeless guitar riff that inspired it, or the genius to realize it was good and make a song out of it?

Much like the eternal question of "how many licks does it take to get to the tootsie roll center of a tootsie pop?" I guess the world will never know.

[killingvector]

I love what I hear so far. In my heart, the album is a monster hit, but whether Axl can soundscan 500-600k units opening week is another story. Beyonce and Justin were able to sell half a million records their first week; I am highly skeptical that Axl has enough push to match that feat. CD could be a slow and long burn on the charts......It hopefully has legs.

[jazjme]

quote from bono
"I can tell you right now that Smells Like Teen Spirit is as popular in the bars today as it was when it was released. Better will never reach those heights. Not even close."

IM sorry man , love you and your posts but I beg to differ, I cant remeber the alst time I ehrd anyome play nirvana in a bar nor zep, and whrer I hang out in NYC tribeca , whre alot of Pace University, and MIT crowd hang out , I find they play alot more GNR, and  with the  new jukeboxes where you can download and play tunes, newer stuff. BUT every damn time I go into tis place someone has played GNR. NOT NIRVANA or Zep.

[acompleteunknown]

I think we're getting away from the original question.  First off, it's hard to say exactly how the songs will play when we're listening to unmastered demos.  Even unmastered demos of Smells Like Teen Spirit weren't all that.   But I think the only way to answer this question fairly is to look at the biggest rock bands of the day.  Does this material hold a candle to what they are doing?  Bands like The Killers, Linkin Park, White Stripes, Tool are probably the foremost rock bands out there today. There are many other very goods out there...but I think we can all agree that these are the biggest (whether we like their music or not).  It's too hard to tell how good the live songs will be once they hit the CD.  I've heard tons of live songs that sounded great in concert only to hear the CD and hate them.  I've also heard terrible live songs that were amazing on CD.  So let's take a look at the demos: CITR, Better, TWAT, IRS OMG. 

OMG had it's chance...it did nothing.  But the song was probably too complex for main stream radio, almost like a Mars Volta song.  A brilliant band who rarely gets radio play.

CITR could be any song by someone like Maroon 5.  Is that a good thing for gunner fans?  not necessarily...but that does mean it could get play on light rock radio.

So could Better, TWAT, IRS hold a candle to "Seven Nation Army," "One Step Closer," "Somebody Told Me?"  Probably not.  But that's mainly because the radio world is dominated by alt. rock.  The most raved about metal CD of the year is Mastadon and you don't hear that on the radio....yet.

There's one big factor that would make a difference:  Axl's voice.  Axl's voice is so unique and different that it alone would draw attention to the music.  This guy could be singing Garth Brooks songs and he would draw a crowd...especially if the world had never heard his phenomenal howl up until this point.  I think the new GNR, if they were a new unknown band, they would get noticed...they would get radio play...they would receive a positive critical praise...BUT they wouldn't be as big as AFD GNR although they would develop a strong devoted following.

I could see them being popular on the level of a band like Incubus, Audioslave, A Perfect Circle, or Offspring.

[Eazy E]

I know this will piss some people off and offend some people but I honestly believe a hell of alot of people on these boards are gonna love the album and the songs no matter what simply because it's Axl. It won't be based on the material itself it will be based on who wrote it.I believe that a massive amount of people would not rate these songs at all if they weren't Gn'R.

Wait, wait, wait... Are you saying you're suprised that Guns N' Roses fans are enjoying songs by their favourite singer?  What the hell are we supposed to be doing?  I'd say there are a fair number of people on this forum who are level-headed about the new material.  It is generally accepted that Silkworms is a bad song, regardless if Axl Rose is singing it or not.  Each board member also has a leaked song they prefer more than the others...but of COURSE people are going to like the songs, it's Axl Rose singing it... His voice and lyrics are the reason we're here in the first place.

The songs may sound "generic & empty" to you, but name another singer who can pull off the vocals at the end of TWAT?  Or write a verse as good as the last in CITR?  I don't know why you shouldn't be excited about the music coming from this band... it clearly stands out from the rest of popular music.

I am not a huge fan of some of the new songs, but why should you doubt that I sincerely enjoy some of it more than any other music released recently, or that I've made an "emotional connection" to the songs?

Sometimes making a conscious effort to keep an "open mind" about music turns you into a critic... and sometimes thinking like a music critic can ruin your enjoyment of good music. 

[Bono]

quote from bono
"I can tell you right now that Smells Like Teen Spirit is as popular in the bars today as it was when it was released. Better will never reach those heights. Not even close."

IM sorry man , love you and your posts but I beg to differ, I cant remeber the alst time I ehrd anyome play nirvana in a bar nor zep, and whrer I hang out in NYC tribeca , whre alot of Pace University, and MIT crowd hang out , I find they play alot more GNR, and? with the? new jukeboxes where you can download and play tunes, newer stuff. BUT every damn time I go into tis place someone has played GNR. NOT NIRVANA or Zep.

hahaha! Jazjme you need to hang out in the club that I dj in than. ?What I ment was Teen Spirit is as popular today as it was back then ?in terms of the reaction it still gets from the crowd when it's played. It's a regular in my set. ?I come off my techno set with Smells Like teen Spirit and it blows the roof off the place. It's hard to explain it but I do a techno remix of it(my own thank you very much) ?that I can pretty much loop in with any other techno song I may be playing at the time. I bring the crowd down a notch to let them breath and when I start throwing in the quick bits of Teen Spirit in you can hear and see the anticipation grow in the crowd. Now whether that appreciation is for the dj or for the song I don't know but I can tell you this: When I make the transition(It's seemless you guys would love it ) from techno Teen Spirit into the actual Nirvana version the place explodes every time. I then follow it up with a ?rock set. So yeah this was way off topic but I just thought I should explain what I emnt about it beinga s popular today as it was back than. ?In all honesty as far as club dj's go you guys would love me Lots of rock and lots of cool rock remixes. I've mixed Jungle with techno before(pretty cool) and I've even done some nice Zepplin vs Gn'R remixes. Crowd always loves that shit.

[Bono]

Wait, wait, wait... Are you saying you're suprised that Guns N' Roses fans are enjoying songs by their favourite singer?? What the hell are we supposed to be doing?? I'd say there are a fair number of people on this forum who are level-headed about the new material.? It is generally accepted that Silkworms is a bad song, regardless if Axl Rose is singing it or not.? Each board member also has a leaked song they prefer more than the others...but of COURSE people are going to like the songs, it's Axl Rose singing it... His voice and lyrics are the reason we're here in the first place.

The songs may sound "generic & empty" to you, but name another singer who can pull off the vocals at the end of TWAT?? Or write a verse as good as the last in CITR?? I don't know why you shouldn't be excited about the music coming from this band... it clearly stands out from the rest of popular music.

I am not a huge fan of some of the new songs, but why should you doubt that I sincerely enjoy some of it more than any other music released recently, or that I've made an "emotional connection" to the songs?

Sometimes making a conscious effort to keep an "open mind" about music turns you into a critic... and sometimes thinking like a music critic can ruin your enjoyment of good music.

fair enough. I knew that quote would get some reaction but are you in turn saying that I can't genuinely dislike the songs or feel they are average at best and that my "open mindedness" has now in fact  ruined my enjoyment of the music? You see now you're doing the  same thing I just did excpet it's the exact opposite. Now you might understand where I was coming from. I didn't say everyone likes these songs falsely. I now there are some who really do enjoy these new songs but I am saying I believe that a large amount of fans have simply convinced themselves that the songs are great and I woudl be willing to bet I'mnot the only one who feels this way. It's like bad songs are now average, average songs are good, good songs are great and great songs  are epic. It's a case of people not wanting to be let down to a point where they refuse to be regardless.  I've read comments saying how the new songs hold up to the old material. Examples being Better as the new PC and TWAT as  the new Estranged. not in terms of them simply being "the new" but being better than those old songs. To me that's ridiculous  and it's a false/over appreciation.  It's appreciation based on anticipation. We've wanted the songs for so long and now that we've got them some people are gonna make them out to be so much more than they are, when in reality these new songs won't in my opinion have the staying power that old material did. I dont' believe that 20 years down the road we'll be hearing Better or The Blues on Classic Rock radio they way we hear SCOM or Jungle today. Of course though I'm basing my opinions on "From what we've heard so far" Demos and live cuts. Still  I don't believe the album will have the classic feeling many are expecting. If I'm wrong I'll be supper happy and e the first to say I was wrong. I hope to be proven wrong. If that ends up being the case than we all win.

[Eazy E]

fair enough. I knew that quote would get some reaction but are you in turn saying that I can't genuinely dislike the songs or feel they are average at best and that my "open mindedness" has now in fact ruined my enjoyment of the music? You see now you're doing the same thing I just did excpet it's the exact opposite. Now you might understand where I was coming from. I didn't say everyone likes these songs falsely. I now there are some who really do enjoy these new songs but I am saying I believe that a large amount of fans have simply convinced themselves that the songs are great and I woudl be willing to bet I'mnot the only one who feels this way. It's like bad songs are now average, average songs are good, good songs are great and great songs are epic. It's a case of people not wanting to be let down to a point where they refuse to be regardless. I've read comments saying how the new songs hold up to the old material. Examples being Better as the new PC and TWAT as the new Estranged. not in terms of them simply being "the new" but being better than those old songs. To me that's ridiculous and it's a false/over appreciation. It's appreciation based on anticipation. We've wanted the songs for so long and now that we've got them some people are gonna make them out to be so much more than they are, when in reality these new songs won't in my opinion have the staying power that old material did. I dont' believe that 20 years down the road we'll be hearing Better or The Blues on Classic Rock radio they way we hear SCOM or Jungle today. Of course though I'm basing my opinions on "From what we've heard so far" Demos and live cuts. Still I don't believe the album will have the classic feeling many are expecting. If I'm wrong I'll be supper happy and e the first to say I was wrong. I hope to be proven wrong. If that ends up being the case than we all win.

Well you also can't refuse to believe that any of the new songs will be better than the old stuff... It IS possible, however unlikely.  Personally, I rank some of the new stuff ahead of some of the weaker old stuff, but of course we haven't even heard the final product.

Around the middle of your post I started to think that the true test would be people's impression of the album down the road a few years.  You mentioned that a few lines after that.  I think that just like Episode 1, the hype and love of classics will cloud people's judgment of the new songs.... but when the dust settles we will see how good the album really is.  I personally think it will be looked upon highly compared to current music and possibly stand up to the old material.