Libanon - Israel - Iran - Syria - 3rd world war (no politics, promise!)

[Sakib]

WAT-EVER, I'm happy you're not Israel's Prime minister...

i would do it.
i would do 50/50 and share the land, we'll all listen to a big GNR concert in jerusalem or somewhere.

but you know, i think it's lost. our generation. things are dead now. all fucked up. israel. iran. all fucked up.

Iran, Israel and islamic terroris, are the root of all evil in this world. they're all full of hate.

You're right. the world is so messed up people actually think there's such thing as "Islamic Terrorism." It saddens as a muslim that the islamic terror isnt referred to as a thing of goodness i.e. a thief or a rapist feeling terror at the sight of a muslim person the way police are but used to describe people who0 spread a point of view by killing civilians and and themselves, something which is totally wrong to be a muslim. 

Israel need to give some land to the muslims of palestine. We have a long history in israel and its awful its been taken away from us. Also these so called "Muslim rule" countries such as syria are misusing islam for their own desires and all thats been achieved is corruption.

Sorry if i went off topic there, I'm angry at this war because there's no unity among anybody to stop harm to civilians. Why arent israel freeing the 1000 or so requested prisoners under the age 18? I dont get it

[SLCPUNK]

Israel is doing the right thing.

The hell they are.

Israel is the better armed, more powerful entity. It is their duty to act responsibly. By escalating tit-for-tat they are proving to be just as insane as who they are fighting. Setting an entire country in flames is not justified. Both sides are guilty of terrorism, since both sides are killing civilians.

[Surfrider]

WAT-EVER, I'm happy you're not Israel's Prime minister...

i would do it.
i would do 50/50 and share the land, we'll all listen to a big GNR concert in jerusalem or somewhere.

but you know, i think it's lost. our generation. things are dead now. all fucked up. israel. iran. all fucked up.

Iran, Israel and islamic terroris, are the root of all evil in this world. they're all full of hate.

You're right. the world is so messed up people actually think there's such thing as "Islamic Terrorism." It saddens as a muslim that the islamic terror isnt referred to as a thing of goodness i.e. a thief or a rapist feeling terror at the sight of a muslim person the way police are but used to describe people who0 spread a point of view by killing civilians and and themselves, something which is totally wrong to be a muslim.?

Islamic extremism is not isolated to a small group of muslims.  Muslims don't do themselves any favors either.  If these Muslim nations were against islamic extremism they would condemn the actions of terrorists when they occur, and they would at least make a little effort to try and catch and stop islamic extremists within their borders.  This does not happen.  Israel just sits around next to these hostile countries as they promise to crack down on extremism but in reality do nothing.

Israel need to give some land to the muslims of palestine. We have a long history in israel and its awful its been taken away from us. Also these so called "Muslim rule" countries such as syria are misusing islam for their own desires and all thats been achieved is corruption.

Countries like Syria seem to be the rule rather than the exception of Muslim countries.  How anyone can make the argument that Israel needs to give up more land is beyond me.  They sent in their own police to drag Israelis out of Gaza.  However, instead of taking that land and making it productive, the Palenstineans moved rockets and missiles into Gaza.

Why should Israel give any piece of land back to the Palestineans admist the pressure from terrorists and islamic extremism?  Israel has been stating for years that a peace agreement would occur once Hama is disbanded and terrorism stops.  This has not happened.  Nevertheless, Israel took the bold, but wrong move in my opinion, to move out of Gaza to appease all of those that believed that terrorism would stop once Israel began to draw back.  However, the terrorism increased.  How anyone could rip on Israel for this is beyond me.

[Surfrider]

Israel is doing the right thing.

The hell they are.

Israel is the better armed, more powerful entity. It is their duty to act responsibly. By escalating tit-for-tat they are proving to be just as insane as who they are fighting. Setting an entire country in flames is not justified. Both sides are guilty of terrorism, since both sides are killing civilians.

This is absurd and the criticisms are outrageous. 


Hezbollah, which is represented in the Lebanese legislature and cabinet, attacked Israel without provocation.  That violates international law.

Hezbollah has used human shields, placing its rockets in the homes of civilians.  That too violates international law.

Hezbollah aims its rockets at cities indiscriminately, another violation of international law. 

I know no one expects better from Hezbollah, but it is important to point this out.  Moreover, Lebanon has not an effort to disarm Hezbollah and therefore some of the responsibility is borne by it.  Certainly, it cannot complain when Israel attempts to defend itself against Hezbollah.

Israel's actions are excessive?  Now, it is true that Israel occasionally harms civilians, but its actions are designed to attack military targets and it is careful not to harm citizens any more than necessary.  Of course, when Hezbollah uses human shields, the responsibility lies with Hezbollah, not Israel.

The main idea of the critics of Israel seems to be that Israel is fighting too hard, going after too many targets.  After all, Hezbollah only kidnapped a couple of its soldiers.  While this might seem to be a plausible argument at first, in a perverse sort of  way, upon examination it just seems absurd.  Hezbollah attacked Israel.   It has not disavowed its attack nor returned the soldiers.  Israel should be allowed to respond as necessary to get its soldiers returned.  Moreover, Hezbollah has now shot rockets throughout Israel and there is no reason to think it will not do so in the future.  It is perfectly legitimate for Israel to fight a war with Hezbollah now, defeat it, and disarm it.

If any other country had to deal with the BS that Israel has to deal with, we would not be condemning such military action.? Israel has acted with more restraint than probably any country in this world could tolerate.? There is a point where discussion and talks go nowhere.? These islamic radicals don't want a peace agreement with Israel; they want Israel destroyed.? Hamas has always stated this, Hezbollah has stated this, and the Iranian president has stated this multiple times.? Is Israel really supposed to sit and withdraw from areas in their country, while Iran is developing nuclear capabilities, hoping that these people will change their minds.

[The Dog]

Israel is doing the right thing.

The hell they are.

Israel is the better armed, more powerful entity. It is their duty to act responsibly. By escalating tit-for-tat they are proving to be just as insane as who they are fighting. Setting an entire country in flames is not justified. Both sides are guilty of terrorism, since both sides are killing civilians.

This is absurd and the criticisms are outrageous. 


Hezbollah, which is represented in the Lebanese legislature and cabinet, attacked Israel without provocation.  That violates international law.

Hezbollah has used human shields, placing its rockets in the homes of civilians.  That too violates international law.

Hezbollah aims its rockets at cities indiscriminately, another violation of international law. 

I know no one expects better from Hezbollah, but it is important to point this out.  Moreover, Lebanon has not an effort to disarm Hezbollah and therefore some of the responsibility is borne by it.  Certainly, it cannot complain when Israel attempts to defend itself against Hezbollah.

Israel's actions are excessive?  Now, it is true that Israel occasionally harms civilians, but its actions are designed to attack military targets and it is careful not to harm citizens any more than necessary.  Of course, when Hezbollah uses human shields, the responsibility lies with Hezbollah, not Israel.

The main idea of the critics of Israel seems to be that Israel is fighting too hard, going after too many targets.  After all, Hezbollah only kidnapped a couple of its soldiers.  While this might seem to be a plausible argument at first, in a perverse sort of  way, upon examination it just seems absurd.  Hezbollah attacked Israel.   It has not disavowed its attack nor returned the soldiers.  Israel should be allowed to respond as necessary to get its soldiers returned.  Moreover, Hezbollah has now shot rockets throughout Israel and there is no reason to think it will not do so in the future.  It is perfectly legitimate for Israel to fight a war with Hezbollah now, defeat it, and disarm it.

If any other country had to deal with the BS that Israel has to deal with, we would not be condemning such military action.  Israel has acted with more restraint than probably any country in this world could tolerate.  There is a point where discussion and talks go nowhere.  These islamic radicals don't want a peace agreement with Israel; they want Israel destroyed.  Hamas has always stated this, Hezbollah has stated this, and the Iranian president has stated this multiple times.  Is Israel really supposed to sit and withdraw from areas in their country, while Iran is developing nuclear capabilities, hoping that these people will change their minds.

EXCELLENT points.  It blows my mind that people seem to forget that these aren't countries we are talking about, they are TERROR groups that their host countries do very very little, if nothing at all, to stop. 

As for Israel giving more land - you really think that would stop the violence? Then you don't understand the situation - the terrorist groups and radical islamic countries don't want Israel to exist at all, they want it wiped off the face of the earth.  They dont' want part of the land back, they want it ALL.

Like someone else said before, if you pick a fight with someone who has more weapons, more bombs don't start crying when they decide to use them all and don't complain that its "too much".  The SIMPLE FACT is they wouldn't have dropped any bombs or blown up any airports/bridges/road ways if their country wasn't attacked and its troops weren't taken prisoner.  Thats not hard to understand.  If you leave a hornets nest alone, you won't get stung....throw a rock at it and be prepared for some pain.

[Where is Hassan Nasrallah ?]

Why do these countries want israel destroyed ? where does that come from ?


The hezbolah started in 1982, a joint-venture between Iran and Syria to deal with the Israeli attacks in Lebanon. so here you go, provocation started 24 years ago.
It's not like everything was going fine until today, it's not like Palestinian were chillin' out in Gaza (1.4 million for 360 km? !). I dont know if you're aware, but there are issues over there.

Hezbollah is indeed a terrorist organisation. Israel has the right to seek them and kill 'em (that's what god-lovers do, they kill).

So tell me, why bombing : the airport, the port, lighthouse, food silo, roads in Beyrouth ?
When everybody knows that the HZB is funded by Syria and Iran. Damascus is the objective here.

Arab countries don't want peace ? why ?
i guess 30 years of suffering and humuliation is the answer.
Israel has clearly stated that this land belongs to them (it's written in some book they say, god gave it to them ...).
At some point in history, we thought about a 50 / 50 solution. nah, not good enough i guess.


BerkeleyRiot, one question, why are you so enthusiastic about Israel ?
Why shift this way? i don't get it. there is a clear violation of human right, a country attacking civilians because they can't hold on the people they want.
it's outrageous.

as i said earlier, if you're in the swat team, dop you blow up the school *with* the kids because you can't get a clear shot of the criminals ?

[Where is Hassan Nasrallah ?]

Like someone else said before, if you pick a fight with someone who has more weapons, more bombs don't start crying when they decide to use them all and don't complain that its "too much".? The SIMPLE FACT is they wouldn't have dropped any bombs or blown up any airports/bridges/road ways if their country wasn't attacked and its troops weren't taken prisoner.? Thats not hard to understand.? If you leave a hornets nest alone, you won't get stung....throw a rock at it and be prepared for some pain.

i was posting on some other big french message board, and it's amazing how Pro-Israel people talk the SAME you do.
They have a lust for violence and power.
They are all exited about the war.
They keep posting about bombs, and " don't fuck with us " and things like that.
It's very troubling.
There is, in some ways, a similarity with american people ( and i was talking about french pro-israeli). You guys JUST LOVE VIOLENCE.
there is this tone in your writing, where it sounds like all this mess just turns you on.
very very mischievous and immoral.
i don't know.
wierd.

[Axl4Prez2004]

Guys and gals, these are all very good points.  I enjoy civil discussions, I think we're doing well!  Someone mentioned "the problem with Islam," and I'd like to correct that to fundamentalist Islam.  Fun"dumb"entalist anything is a danger to civilization.  That goes for Christians, Muslims, Jews, whatever. 

Also, someone mentioned, "what about the 1,000 prisoners Israel is holding?"  "Why aren't they released?"  Hmmm, my guess?  Because a week from the release they'll be targeting cafes, hotels, bah mitzvahs, etc.  That's why. 

Someone also mentioned a 50-50 land split.  This is preposterous.  It will happen as soon as the western U.S. is given back to Mexico, as soon as the American Indian is given the rest of the U.S., and Scandinavia returns its land to the Vikings. 

Oh, and btw, please don't say all Americans love violence and war.  Personally, I agreed with the Afghanistan war and the hunt for Osama Bin Laden...I disagreed with the Iraq War after I learned the entire justification was built upon non-existent weapons of mass destruction, bad intell.  A majority of Americans disagree with pres bush's policies as well.

 

Seriously, the Lebanese, private citizen and police and military alike have to come together to realize the biggest threat to their society is not Israel, it is the terrorist scum that is ignored that lives next door or down the street from them.  I believe the sub-title to GNR's Locomotive is the word I'm getting at here.         ...complicity.   

[Surfrider]

Why do these countries want israel destroyed ? where does that come from ?


The hezbolah started in 1982, a joint-venture between Iran and Syria to deal with the Israeli attacks in Lebanon. so here you go, provocation started 24 years ago.
It's not like everything was going fine until today, it's not like Palestinian were chillin' out in Gaza (1.4 million for 360 km? !). I dont know if you're aware, but there are issues over there.

Hezbollah is indeed a terrorist organisation. Israel has the right to seek them and kill 'em (that's what god-lovers do, they kill).

So tell me, why bombing : the airport, the port, lighthouse, food silo, roads in Beyrouth ?
When everybody knows that the HZB is funded by Syria and Iran. Damascus is the objective here.

My guess is that they are destroying Hezbollah's capability to move the soldiers out of Lebanon and into Iran or Syria.

Arab countries don't want peace ? why ?
i guess 30 years of suffering and humuliation is the answer.
Israel has clearly stated that this land belongs to them (it's written in some book they say, god gave it to them ...).
At some point in history, we thought about a 50 / 50 solution. nah, not good enough i guess.

They are not doing what is necessary to get peace. ?Israel made the biggest move towards peace than any of the involved entities. ?They unilaterally withdrew from Gaza even though the Palenstinian government did not do anything to stop terrorism. ?What happened? ?More terrorism.

Sure both countries are partly responsible for the animosity. ?However, I have seen Israel take meaningful steps towards peace. ?Not one of these arab countries nor the Palestinian government can say the same. ?All they have to do is stop the terrorism and disband the terrorist groups. ?They refuse to do so. ?If you were Israel, would you give up any land admist this terrorism and these countries' refusal to stop - let alone their refusal to stop supporting - terrorism? ?Of course not. ?Especially since they did begn to withdraw from land and things got worst.

This islamic extremism goes far beyond the conflict in Israel and the middle east. ?Although it didn't get too much attention, radical extremists bombed Kashmir. ?Radical muslims have been committing the same acts in the Phillipines for years. ?Radical muslims are slaughtering Christians in Sudan. ?There is an element of the Islamic religion, that certainly doesn't cover all muslims, that is creating havoc far beyond the Gaza strip. ?Muslims that don't have such extreme views are in the best position to condemn it and stop it. ?Yet they conveniently fail to do so. ?These countries that apparently want peace and disagree with these fanactics do nothing to stop them.

BerkeleyRiot, one question, why are you so enthusiastic about Israel ?
Why shift this way? i don't get it. there is a clear violation of human right, a country attacking civilians because they can't hold on the people they want.
it's outrageous.

I don't think enthusiastic is the word. ?More like sympathetic. ?They put up with more shit than any country and are surrounded by countries that want them destroyed and preach their destruction every day. ?Yet the UN and the world criticize Israel for any action they take and place them on the same moral footing as the foes that they respond to. ?The facts I have stated pretty much demonstrate why I will not condemn Israel for their actions. ?Any other country would have a similar, if not more lethal, response. ?Israel is the only country that I have seen take dramatic steps towards peace (leaving Gaza). ?This was met with the election of Hamas and the continuance of terrorism. ?Let me ask you, how in the heck can you be 50/50.

It is the constant justification, apologies, and attempt to understand radical Islam that perpetuates its existence.

[The Dog]

Like someone else said before, if you pick a fight with someone who has more weapons, more bombs don't start crying when they decide to use them all and don't complain that its "too much".  The SIMPLE FACT is they wouldn't have dropped any bombs or blown up any airports/bridges/road ways if their country wasn't attacked and its troops weren't taken prisoner.  Thats not hard to understand.  If you leave a hornets nest alone, you won't get stung....throw a rock at it and be prepared for some pain.

i was posting on some other big french message board, and it's amazing how Pro-Israel people talk the SAME you do.
They have a lust for violence and power.
They are all exited about the war.
They keep posting about bombs, and " don't fuck with us " and things like that.
It's very troubling.
There is, in some ways, a similarity with american people ( and i was talking about french pro-israeli). You guys JUST LOVE VIOLENCE.
there is this tone in your writing, where it sounds like all this mess just turns you on.
very very mischievous and immoral.
i don't know.
wierd.

well either its my writing style or your inability to decipher my tone, but you are 100% wrong.  I do not enjoy reading about children being decapitated, or families who have no homes to go home to or about a country who was on the rise being bombed into the stone ages.  For your information, I am actually part Lebanese believe it or not.  I am not "pro israel" I am simply anti-terror.  I want this crisis to end just as much as you do. 

Did you even read my post?  Did I say "yeah, blow those f'ing bastards away" or "yes, finally israel is going to bitch slap those terrorist bastards".  No I have not.  Please stop reading into things to turn me into some kind of war junkie b/c you can't respond to my points.  The simple fact is the terror groups started this violence and israel is now responding/defending itself. 

My point was, violence brings more violence.  This display of fire power by israel should not be surprising.  They have been attacked and are now responding with their full force.  Please stick to the facts of what is being said and not to what you assume is being said.

Lastly, and I think I speak for other Americans in this discussion, stop lumping us all together as "Pro-Israel" and "Pro-violence/war".  You are really showing your bias toward the US when you make sweeping/broad assumptions like that.  As of now the USA isn't even a part of this recent conflict and are staying out of it (as is most of the world) for the time being.

[Drew]

And this is not another poiltical thread? Oh come on people...

[Axl4Prez2004]

And this is not another poiltical thread? Oh come on people...

Drew, let's file this one under the "human relations" column.

I still had a question as to why the majority of folks in the neighboring Lebanon area would allow Hezbollah to run rampant.  My guess is that it's similar to the drug situation in American metropolitan areas like DC, NY, and LA.  The dealers have a habit of killing "snitches."  I'd imagine the Hezbollah and Hamas terrorists use the same method.  Someone should send those guys one of the "Stop Snitchin'" t-shirts that have gotten so popular in the poor, urban American areas. 

It's just all so fucking sad.      

[Where is Hassan Nasrallah ?]

Like someone else said before, if you pick a fight with someone who has more weapons, more bombs don't start crying when they decide to use them all and don't complain that its "too much".  The SIMPLE FACT is they wouldn't have dropped any bombs or blown up any airports/bridges/road ways if their country wasn't attacked and its troops weren't taken prisoner.  Thats not hard to understand.  If you leave a hornets nest alone, you won't get stung....throw a rock at it and be prepared for some pain.

i was posting on some other big french message board, and it's amazing how Pro-Israel people talk the SAME you do.
They have a lust for violence and power.
They are all exited about the war.
They keep posting about bombs, and " don't fuck with us " and things like that.
It's very troubling.
There is, in some ways, a similarity with american people ( and i was talking about french pro-israeli). You guys JUST LOVE VIOLENCE.
there is this tone in your writing, where it sounds like all this mess just turns you on.
very very mischievous and immoral.
i don't know.
wierd.

well either its my writing style or your inability to decipher my tone, but you are 100% wrong.  I do not enjoy reading about children being decapitated, or families who have no homes to go home to or about a country who was on the rise being bombed into the stone ages.  For your information, I am actually part Lebanese believe it or not.  I am not "pro israel" I am simply anti-terror.  I want this crisis to end just as much as you do. 

Did you even read my post?  Did I say "yeah, blow those f'ing bastards away" or "yes, finally israel is going to bitch slap those terrorist bastards".  No I have not.  Please stop reading into things to turn me into some kind of war junkie b/c you can't respond to my points.  The simple fact is the terror groups started this violence and israel is now responding/defending itself. 

My point was, violence brings more violence.  This display of fire power by israel should not be surprising.  They have been attacked and are now responding with their full force.  Please stick to the facts of what is being said and not to what you assume is being said.

Lastly, and I think I speak for other Americans in this discussion, stop lumping us all together as "Pro-Israel" and "Pro-violence/war".  You are really showing your bias toward the US when you make sweeping/broad assumptions like that.  As of now the USA isn't even a part of this recent conflict and are staying out of it (as is most of the world) for the time being.

fair enough, and i'm glad you feel that way.
but some of your words sure did imply edgy views.
violence brings more violence ? ... therefore israel is doing the wrong thing.

how is this war composing a long term strategy ? it is not.

[The Dog]

What I meant by "violence brings more violence" is its an expected response.  no established nation is going to be attacked and not respond.

Violence, sadly, can lead to a peacful, long term situation -- just look at the USA's use of nuclear weapons in WW2.

I think the time for talks in the middle east is over, it hasn't worked.  A long term solution is for the arab nations to recognize israel, disarm and disband the terrorist groups that are within their nations, stop supplying and funding the terrorist groups, disarm Hamas and Hezbollah and begin peaceful discussions. 

This isn't rocket science.  If the arab nations want peace, STOP ATTACKING THEIR NEIGHBOR!

Truthfully, as I said before, they don't want peace with Israel, they want NO ISRAEL.  The radical elements of the arab world will not rest in peace until Israel is off the map.  All the talk in the world isn't going to change that.  As others have mentioned, Israel did make concessions with land and forced their own people to leave their homes and nothing changed, they were still attacked with rockets and suicide bombers. 

There would be much more sympathy if instead of suicide bombers and rockets they tried peacful marches and rallies....look at ghandi, martin luther king jr., the womans rights movement in the states --- all non violent and all successful. 

[Axl4Prez2004]

What I meant by "violence brings more violence" is its an expected response.? no established nation is going to be attacked and not respond.

Violence, sadly, can lead to a peacful, long term situation -- just look at the USA's use of nuclear weapons in WW2.

I think the time for talks in the middle east is over, it hasn't worked.? A long term solution is for the arab nations to recognize israel, disarm and disband the terrorist groups that are within their nations, stop supplying and funding the terrorist groups, disarm Hamas and Hezbollah and begin peaceful discussions.?

This isn't rocket science.? If the arab nations want peace, STOP ATTACKING THEIR NEIGHBOR!

Truthfully, as I said before, they don't want peace with Israel, they want NO ISRAEL.? The radical elements of the arab world will not rest in peace until Israel is off the map.? All the talk in the world isn't going to change that.? As others have mentioned, Israel did make concessions with land and forced their own people to leave their homes and nothing changed, they were still attacked with rockets and suicide bombers.?

There would be much more sympathy if instead of suicide bombers and rockets they tried peacful marches and rallies....look at ghandi, martin luther king jr., the womans rights movement in the states --- all non violent and all successful.?

Hannahat is right on here.  Good points. 

[heinous]

Hamas kidnaps an Iraqi soldier on Israel's southern border.

Hezbolah kidnaps more Iraqi soldiers on Israel's northern border.

Israel let's everyone know that won't go unanswered.

People whine and moan.

What's the old saying?? You mess with the bull, you get the horns.....

[Mal Brossard]

Alright, I'll weigh in on this.

Let me first say this: I am by no means an anti-Semite.  I am only anti-Zionism.

That being said, I sympathize with Palestine-- they were essentially pushed off their land by England in 1948 so the Jews could move in-- the ultimate culmination of the Zionist movement of 1880-1950.  How would you feel if you were essentially pushed off your land and told "Hey, move over so your biggest enemy of the last 2000 years can move in on this land"?  Then when you try to fight back, you get annhilated by a superior military backed by the major powers of the world and get restricted even further.

The only reason Israel exists is because of excessive guilt felt by most of the world for treating Jews as a separate race, eventually allowing them to be condemned under Hitler in the Holocaust. (By the way, the comment was made that Iran's leader denies the Holocaust happened.  I suggest you look into this further.  There is almost NO ONE who denies there was excessive persecution, imprisonment, and killing of Jews in Nazi Germany.  What is consistantly called "Holocaust denial" is really "Holocaust revisionism."  All that has been questioned on any basis is how many were killed, how they died, and why.  No one that I can find will refute the fact that the Holocaust happened, just to what extent.)

However, the Arab nations have gone on about this all wrong, as has really everyone involved.  The reason Arab countries have to resort to terror is because it's all they know.  When you have nothing to use to fight, you have to rely on anything you can get your hands on.  If that means guerilla warfare or even solo warfare (terrorism), so be it.

Since June 28, Israel has re-occupied Gaza, cut off their electricity and water, bombed an Islamic University, may have used biological or chemical weapons in Gaza, bombed the Beirut airport, bombed the Beirut-Damascus highway, bombed the bridges over the Awali and Litani rivers, bombed all over the Israel-Lebanon border, bombed Baalbek, sets up a blockade against Lebanon, and sank a Cambodian ship in Lebanese waters.  All Lebanon has done is see Hezbollah kidnap an Israeli troop or two, bomb Haifa (after being attacked), and bomb an Israeli warship.

On April 4, 2003, a European Union (EU) poll named Israel as the ?greatest threat to world peace.?  The American media wants to portray this as the innocent victim (Israel) defending itself against evildoers, while nearly turning a blind eye to any injustices by Israel that have led to retaliation.  On June 27, 2006, the Israeli Occupation Forces (IOF) proved the EU right by reoccupying Gaza, savagely terrorizing the civilian population, blowing up their electric/water generating facilities, conducting a mass arrest of their elected officials, and also, without just cause, provoking the Syrians. In response to the repeated shelling by the IOF of Gaza, Israel?s Prime Minister, Ehud Olmert, wisecracked, ?Nobody dies from being uncomfortable!? When he addressed a Joint Session of the U.S. Congress, on May 24, 2006, Olmert received 38 breaks of applause and 18 standing ovations from that entity of mostly lapdogs. This is also the same Israeli leader, who, paraphrasing George Orwell's ?Animal Farm,? said that he had a ?deep regret? about the effects of some IOF?s operations which had killed 14 innocent Palestinians in just nine days, but that the lives of Israeli citizens were ?even more important.?

What would have happened if Israel hadn't been created?

* 1. The U.S. would not have any enemies in the Islamic World because we would have no Israel to support and be despised by the neighboring Arab countries
* 2. There would be no Al-Qaeda Terrorist Network as they would not have an enemy like Israel and its allies.
* 3. There would be no 9/11 attacks.
* 4. There would be no USA Patriot Law.
* 5. There would be no Homeland Security Agency.
* 6. The Israeli Lobby?s "unmatched power" over U.S. foreign policy, for over four decades, would not had existed (its support for the Iraqi War was deemed by experts to be "critical").
* 7. There would also not have been any Neocon ideologues; like Paul Wolfowitz, William Kristol, Richard Perle, et al, to help, (along with other "Special Interests"), to push the U.S. into a quasi-legal war with Iraq.
* 8. Iran would not be the next target for U.S. aggression. (No Israel means no "A Clean Break" document, meaning no Israeli Lobby, which means no Neocons, and therefore no need for the U.S. to attack Iran.)
* 9. Jonathan Pollard, wouldn?t be in prison for stealing U.S. military secrets and hawking them to Israel.
* 10. The three million-plus Palestinians, who were forcefully dispersed from their homeland, since 1948, by the IOF, would, instead, be living happily there today, in a free and independent state of Palestine. There would be no Apartheid Wall, or as a corollary, no Hamas organization.
* 11. Jerusalem would have a vibrant Christian population.
* 12. The 2,544 Americans who have died in Iraq would be alive; and the 18,777, who have been seriously wounded there, would be fully participating in our Republic. U.S. taxpayers would have an additional $295 billion, (the cost of the war), in the treasury to use to serve the social needs of the people. Universal Health Care would be a real possibility and Social Security would not be in jeopardy. Iraq would be at peace. There would be no Gitmo Bay detention center, or an Abu Ghraib Prison, or a reason for the Bush-Cheney Gang to gut Habeas Corpus. No need for it to also employ torturers, or chemical weapons, or hold detainees without charges or trial. The Geneva Convention would be respected. The tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis, who have died as a result of the war, would instead be alive today.
* 13. The battle to save our planet, its fragile ecosystem, its fast vanishing animal life and plants and to combat global warming, would be issue#1. Instead, we are perpetually bombarded with propaganda about defending ?Israel?s security.?
* 14. If there was no Israel, then the "five dancing Israelis" on 9/11 wouldn?t have been arrested. They were nailed after ?celebrating? in NJ, while watching the Twin Towers collapsed.
* 15. U.S. taxpayers would be $140 billion richer! This is the staggering amount they have shelled out over the last 58 years to support the interests of the Zionists.
* 16. On June 13, 2006, the IOF killed ten Palestinians, including three medical workers and two children, in the Gaza Strip. The Palestinian President, Mahmoud Abbas, labeled the missile attack an example of "state terrorism." Only God knows how many Palestinians the Israelis have actually wasted since 1948; or exactly how many refugees it has created, or how many homes, a la Oliver Cromwell, the IOF have demolished. None of this would have been possible without the country of Israel.
* 17. One of the reasons the Warren Commission failed to properly investigate the murder of JFK was because of Arlen Specter (R-PA). He was then a "Special Counsel" to the Commission. He concocted the preposterous ?Magic Bullet? theory, which shut down any real conspiracy-type probe. It is also interesting to note, that Jacob Rubenstein, AKA, "Jack Ruby," Lee Harvey Oswald?s murderer, had close ties to Meyer Lansky?s National Crime Syndicate. I believe the answer to who really plotted JFK?s killing, died with Oswald. In any event after JFK?s death, Israel?s nuclear weapons program, which Kennedy had opposed, went ahead. U.S. aid to Israel also increased dramatically.
* 18. There would have been no reason for a French Ambassador to refer to Israel as "that shitty little country."  In fact, the Jews of the world would have been liberated to fulfill their deepest spiritual quest, as embodied in their religion - Judaism. According to the highly respected Orthodox Rabbi, Dovid Yisroel Weiss, "Zionism has hijacked Judaism." The Rabbi insists that, "Zionism creates anti-Semitism.  And we know, Zionism is the root cause for the pain, suffering, and bloodshed of the Jewish people, and, [the Zionists] are the greatest factory of anti-Semitism worldwide.  Judaism and Zionism are not one and the same. They are diametrically opposite.  We should not mistake one for the other.  And, we shouldn?t be responsible for the actions of what the Zionists do.  Now, another of the problems that emanate actually from the Zionist Movement is the fact that they are encroaching upon the rights of the Palestinian people, the indigenous people, who are living there. And, this is terribly wrong. It is against every concept of the Torah.  So, whatever they are doing is totally wrong!"
* 19. Thousands of Israelis have died attempting to build a nation in a land, Palestine, which belonged to another people, the Palestinians. Their deaths would have been avoided.
* 20. The widespread spying on Americans, without a court order, by operatives of the Bush-Cheney Gang, would have never happened. (No Israel. No 9/11. No spying on U.S. citizens.)

Like I said, I have no problem with Judaism.  I have no problem with people who identify themselves as Jewish.  The problem stems from the Zionists and the creation of Israel.  And I do realize Israel isn't going anywhere-- I can certainly accept that.  But that doesn't mean that every side involved has to keep making the same mistakes over and over again.  Unfortunately, it all has gone too far and we are now standing on the verge of armageddon.

Perhaps the Mayan calendar is right.

[Bill 213]

Beautiful post Duffman, couldn't have said it better myself.? ?

[Guns N RockMusic]

Looks like some people have gone off their meds.

[SLCPUNK]

Hezbollah, which is represented in the Lebanese legislature and cabinet, attacked Israel without provocation.  That violates international law.

Israel has broken international law as well for years.

Certainly, it cannot complain when Israel attempts to defend itself against Hezbollah.

Israel has targeted civilians just as Hezbollah has. What is the difference here?

Israel's actions are excessive?  Now, it is true that Israel occasionally harms civilians, but its actions are designed to attack military targets and it is careful not to harm citizens any more than necessary.

Who said they were excessive? Are you saying I did?

The only point I made was that they killed civilians as well. Watch the news lately? That is all they are reporting: civilians targeted by the Israel military. This makes them no better than Hezbollah in my book.

People whine and moan.

Who is whining and moaning? And about what?