Libanon - Israel - Iran - Syria - 3rd world war (no politics, promise!)

[Z]

When will this world move towards resolutions decided through discussions??

Discussions, discussions and more fucking discussions.  As many discussions as it takes......

Dis-FUCKING-cuss!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If it takes 20 to 50 years of talking to come to resolutions then so be it.

Killing, maming, terrorizing solves absolutely nothing.

I have faith and will keep hoping that we can all learn to respect the beliefs and positions of others.

[Sakib]

This war is sickening. I understand Israel heat if they got soldiers kidnapped. But they are over reacting far too much. To be honest i dont think they've been captured at all its just to blame Palestine to drive em out. If its true, they still over react. They should only attack those who are actually causing the harm such as military.

I'm also angry at Lebanon killing the innocents even tho far less than israel. They should pay blood money for innocents killed.

I think journalism affects the way people feel about the war. Example. on Al-Jazeera, a journalist would show a body of a four year old child that was burned in a blast to the camera to make people realise the ugliness of war. On CNN and BBC News 24 ypou aint get that and im upset that people are taking this war to lightly in Britian (not including rest of world dunno bout em)

[mlewis]

For all of your statistics about innocent people dying (just on the Arab side I notice too, hmm, biased much? - as if innocent israelis aren't/haven't been targets as well?) you haven't suggested what you think Israel SHOULD do in this situation.  Best of all, you act like the kidnapping of "a few soldiers" is no big deal.  !?!?HUH!?!?   Quite frankly, if the government can't control Hezbollah then they ARE to blame for some of this.  Hezbollah is most to blame - they crossed a border, attacked/killed soldiers and they took some prisoner.  You honestly mean to tell me if that happened to people in your country you would just say "c'est la vie" and go on with your day? You wouldn't want a response?  You wouldn't want your government to send a message to your enemies and say "enough is enough"? 

Of course Israel are right to want to take action against Hezbollah, but it;s completely disproportionate and belies an ignorance of the political fragility of the region.

At a crude level, its as if the IRA bombed Britain in the 80s, and then Britain bombs Boston for allowing IRA fundraising there. The argument could be the same- you're doing nothing to stop this terrorism, so you're complicit. It's the classic right-wing fallacy, ironically- blaming government for the action of individuals or small groups. As a parallel, America isn't sending Pakistan back to the stone age, although there certainly are militias in its border areas, similar to Lebanon. You can't use the same paradigm of statehood for these countries as in the civilized world.

So why don't Israel offer to help the Lebanese? Why not say, OK we recognise your problems, and we'll help you root out extremism?

Or if that's idealistic, there are lots of stages of diplomatic pressure to go through.

The heart of the problem is that neither side really value the lives of ordinary citizens enough. Essentially what has caused this latest incident is the exiled Hamas leadership- scared of losing power as the new Hamas leaders in Palestine move towards peace as they were, the exiles use their influence to start a new phase of conflict to rejuvenate the radicalisation. It's a power struggle, and many people will die, and countries set back decades as a result of the short sightedness of so many leaders.

[mlewis]

I think journalism affects the way people feel about the war. Example. on Al-Jazeera, a journalist would show a body of a four year old child that was burned in a blast to the camera to make people realise the ugliness of war. On CNN and BBC News 24 ypou aint get that and im upset that people are taking this war to lightly in Britian (not including rest of world dunno bout em)

You don't see that on the BBC not due to any bias, but due to feelings in western civilization over what is decent to display. In Britain, and related cultures, it's considered obscence and incredibly repugnant to display dead bodies. The BBC is the most impartial reporting you're going to get.

[Axl4Prez2004]

I can understand both sides here...there is no easy answer.  Are the following facts true?

From what I understand we've got a situation where a very strong terrorist organization is operating within southern Lebanon that the Lebanese military/police can't or won't control.

This organization, Hezbollah, wants to eradicate Israel.  It is funded by Syria and Iran.  "Iran's leader incorrectly believes the holocaust never happened btw."  Hezbollah has taken credit for murdering innocent civilians via suicide bombings within Israel even before this latest kidnapping of Israeli soldeiers.

The entire conflict centers around what is perceived as the unjust granting of the Palestians homeland to the Israelis in the late 1940's.  The Arab world tends to believe the land belongs to the Palestinians and wants the Israelis gone. 

Everyone knows, even after Arab attack after Arab attack in the last 60 years, Israel's not going anywhere.  From what I understand, they've even given some of the land they took after past wars back to Arab nations...who started the violence in the 1st place.

I understand the Hezbollah organization is smaller and weaker than the Israeli army, thus requiring them to hide amongst civilians for protection and survival.

It seems the Israeli army has finally decided no more games.  So sometimes when you see that burned 4 year-old, he was sitting next to a killer ready to kill Israeli 4 year-olds the next day. 

I feel for the Palestinians as much as I feel for the Native American who lost his land in the past century here in the United States.  However, what we have here is an established state...and alot of neighbors who'd like nothing better than to wipe them off the map. 

Is it too much to ask for the surrounding Arab nations to put down there arms and begin peaceful co-habitation? 

My belief is that Israel will strike at Iran's burgeoning nuclear program with decisive air-strikes within the next decade.  I don't think it will happen too soon since Iran's weapons program isn't close to production in the next 2 to 5 years.

To de-fuse this thing fast, what must happen is the Lebanese military must arrest all major Hezbollah figures and turn them over to the Israelis, or better yet, try them under Lebanese law and punish them to the extent of the law.

How does that sound?   



 

[colorsthatushine]

I can understand both sides here...there is no easy answer.? Are the following facts true?

From what I understand we've got a situation where a very strong terrorist organization is operating within southern Lebanon that the Lebanese military/police can't or won't control.

This organization, Hezbollah, wants to eradicate Israel.? It is funded by Syria and Iran.? "Iran's leader incorrectly believes the holocaust never happened btw."? Hezbollah has taken credit for murdering innocent civilians via suicide bombings within Israel even before this latest kidnapping of Israeli soldeiers.

The entire conflict centers around what is perceived as the unjust granting of the Palestians homeland to the Israelis in the late 1940's.? The Arab world tends to believe the land belongs to the Palestinians and wants the Israelis gone.?

Everyone knows, even after Arab attack after Arab attack in the last 60 years, Israel's not going anywhere.? From what I understand, they've even given some of the land they took after past wars back to Arab nations...who started the violence in the 1st place.

I understand the Hezbollah organization is smaller and weaker than the Israeli army, thus requiring them to hide amongst civilians for protection and survival.

It seems the Israeli army has finally decided no more games.? So sometimes when you see that burned 4 year-old, he was sitting next to a killer ready to kill Israeli 4 year-olds the next day.?

I feel for the Palestinians as much as I feel for the Native American who lost his land in the past century here in the United States.? However, what we have here is an established state...and alot of neighbors who'd like nothing better than to wipe them off the map.?

Is it too much to ask for the surrounding Arab nations to put down there arms and begin peaceful co-habitation??

My belief is that Israel will strike at Iran's burgeoning nuclear program with decisive air-strikes within the next decade.? I don't think it will happen too soon since Iran's weapons program isn't close to production in the next 2 to 5 years.

To de-fuse this thing fast, what must happen is the Lebanese military must arrest all major Hezbollah figures and turn them over to the Israelis, or better yet, try them under Lebanese law and punish them to the extent of the law.

How does that sound?? ?

Sounds good to me.  Personally I think saying the Israeli army is stronger and better and thus shouldn't strike back as much as they are is ridiculous....if the terror groups had fighter jets and tanks they would be using them, we all know this.  Violence brings more violence, and in the case of this situation I do think its fair to ask yourself, well, who fired the first show.  Every established state has the job, infact it is their DUTY to protect their citizens. 

This situation to me is like the little scrawny kid flinging insults at the bigger stronger kid....finally the little guy gets the balls to punch the big kid - it stings, but once he recovers he starts to beat the shit out of the little guy.  To me there is no sympathy needed, if you want to pick a fight you should be prepared for the other side to fight back as much as they can.

I agree about the Lebanese gov't, they need to be accountable for the groups within their own borders.  As for the palestine/israel conflict, you are also correct, like it or not, israel is an established state and just b/c some countries may not like that, they have to respect it. 

For ONCE, and I can NOT believe I am about to type this, Bush is right - Hezbollah needs to lay down their arms and return the soldiers for the violence to stop.  Israel doesn't need to negotiate, they are in control right now - if Hezbollah didn't want innocent people to die, they would offer to talk about things instead of saying the equivalent of "bring it on!" to the Israeli gov't.

[johnnythunders24]

giving some US perspective everything here on the new is the evil arabs funded by terrorists are attacking the jews...

both sides are playing the victim...

essential listening....megadeth...holy wars 

[Where is Hassan Nasrallah ?]

Unfortunatly Israel (and the USA) got it all wrong, again.
Why ?

You do not get rid of a terrorist organization (fueled by the hate of Israel) by bombing the country. Simple.
The lebanese people will hate Israel just more. What are Israel thinking ? in 5 weeks, that everything will be forgoten and lebanese will sing and dance while walking among corpses? uh.*

I understand that israeli are there and you can't just make 'em go away. But the sharing of the land is far from being fair. Un 1967 resolution was offering a fair 50/50 solution. refused by the usa, i mean, Israel ... sorry

So saying the arab started the violence is a little bit easy.

And feeling bad for the palestinian as you feel for the native american, is a nice thing, but that " well too bad, we're here now ..." thing is bit hard to understand for the ones who got their land taken.

Israel has come to limits now. You can feel how the international comitee are just puzzled and silent. Something's wrong. And i would be so please if Europe woke up and just protect Libanon. simply.

What pisses me off, is that the real objectives are Syria and Iran, we all know that. Israel know that. But they're too scared to attack them. So they punish Lebanon. that's fucked.


What would de-fuse things ? > Israel stopping the strikes right now. that' it.
how can people, in 2006, not understand that.
You stop fighting, then you talk.

It's like, you got candies i want, and i'm beating you up, and i'm telling you to find them in your bag while i'm punching you?
How does that sound?

[Slashead]

Israel is doing the right thing.

Tsahal is restoring Israel's deterrence capacity which is essential. Without deterrence those terrorists would be even more aggressive.

[Where is Hassan Nasrallah ?]

Israel is doing the right thing.

depends on what right is ?
and what side you are. and how moral you are. Israel is just playing the hate game.

[Slashead]

Israel is doing the right thing.

depends on what right is ?
and what side you are. and how moral you are. Israel is just playing the hate game.

This is not about being 'moral', this is about strategy. Without deterrence, Arab countries would attack Israel. A lot of those countries don't even recognize the 1967 borders, they don't recognize Israel at all...
Hezbollah and Hamas' goal is to wipe Israel off the map, not to reach a peace agreement.

[Where is Hassan Nasrallah ?]

Israel is doing the right thing.

depends on what right is ?
and what side you are. and how moral you are. Israel is just playing the hate game.

This is not about being 'moral', this is about strategy. Without deterrence, Arab countries would attack Israel. A lot of those countries don't even recognize the 1967 borders, they don't recognize Israel at all...
Hezbollah and Hamas' goal is to wipe Israel off the map, not to reach a peace agreement.

1967 ? did u see the size of gaza ? i put you there for 2 weeks and you'll want to wipe out israel too. see it's all about point of view.

oh and, yeah, it should be about moral. it's so easy to talk about strategy when they're kids dying.

[Slashead]

Hezbollah has nothing to do with Gaza, it has to do with religious fanaticism.
And Israel is protecting their own kids. If Tsahal wasn't strong, I think the kids from Israel would suffer a lot...

[Where is Hassan Nasrallah ?]

Hezbollah has nothing to do with Gaza, it has to do with religious fanaticism.

what ? hamas? hezbolah ? get your points straight ....

And Israel is protecting their own kids. If Tsahal wasn't strong, I think the kids from Israel would suffer a lot...

uh ... yeah ... ok. ?_?


israel is as evil as the hezbolah could be. that's all. you don't wanna face it too bad. things aren't black and white.
we're not in 1939 anymore.

[Axl4Prez2004]

It's like, you got candies i want, and i'm beating you up, and i'm telling you to find them in your bag while i'm punching you?
How does that sound?

Actually, Israel has given the Lebanese government plenty of time to find the "candies" you are referring to.  These "candies" happen to be terrorists armed with rockets, explosives, and weapons all bought and paid for by Syria and Iran.  These "candies" are hiding amongst the women and children in southern Lebanon when they aren't killing Israeli civilians.  Israel is trying to avoid civilian death as much as possible...but Hezbollah must be crushed. 

Understanding this situation requires you see things from the perspective of all parties involved.  As a Lebanese civilian I'd want to know my neighbors and turn any member of Hezbollah into the authorities.  Get out!  If a Hezbollah militia group was living in my apartment building, guess what?  Time to leave with everything but the kitchen sink, and call in the air-strike. 

Regime change is needed in Syria and Iran.  Arab nations need to raise their standards of living for their general populations or the fanaticism and lack of value for human life will continue.  That goes for the Saudis as well.  If I had no hope of a good life, I might strap a bomb to my belly and want to go see Allah and the 72 strippers in heaven.  It's sad.

[Slashead]

israel is as evil as the hezbolah could be. that's all. you don't wanna face it too bad. things aren't black and white.
we're not in 1939 anymore.

Israel is a democracy, why compare it with a terrorist movement as Hezbollah ?

Axl4Prez2004, good points ! But don't forget that September 11th terrorists were middle-class, not poor at all. There's a problem with islam that goes beyond poverty...

[Where is Hassan Nasrallah ?]

There's a problem with islam that goes beyond poverty...

yeah it's an evil religion and they should be killed .... 

Again, you guys are *reasoning* in a rational way.
There are too many paramters in the game for Israel to take it step by step, in an incremental way.
1 - I tell you to get rid of hezbola
2 - You dont it
3 - i bomb your civil airport

It would work in a game, in a computer program.
Not in real life.
Any action will have multitude of consequences. starting with fueling the hate.

And it doesnt take a smart ass to understand that you don't fight terrorism by bombing cities and starting a war.
Iraq anyone ?

As much as you can love Israel, this is not the way to go. It won't solve anything.
I can't wait for the UN to wake up and finally have some balls.

Slashhead ... democracy .... mate you're way out. we're not talking about that.

Alright, the lebanese want the hezbolah out.
Now they want Israel dead. and they don't care for the hezbolah. cause this terrorist organization will be the only thing between the people and israel bombs. Until the UN take some action.

A wall in the desert .... what a joke.

[Where is Hassan Nasrallah ?]

A interesting article

http://www.commondreams.org/cgi-bin/print.cgi?file=/views06/0715-26.htm


All night I heard the jets, whispering high above the Mediterranean. It lasted for hours, little fireflies that were watching Beirut, waiting for dawn perhaps, because it was then that they descended.

They came first to the little village of Dweir near Nabatiya in southern Lebanon where an Israeli plane dropped a bomb onto the home of a Shia Muslim cleric. He was killed. So was his wife. So were eight of his children. One was decapitated. All they could find of a baby was its head and torso which a young villager brandished in fury in front of the cameras. Then the planes visited another home in Dweir and disposed of a family of seven.

It was a brisk start to Day Two of Israel's latest "war on terror," a conflict that uses some of the same language - and a few of the same lies - as George Bush's larger "war on terror." For just as we "degraded" Iraq - in 1991 as well as 2003 - so yesterday it was Lebanon's turn to be "degraded."

That means not only physical death but economic death and it arrived at Beirut's gleaming new ?300m international airport just before 6am as passengers prepared to board flights to London and Paris.

From my home, I heard the F-16 which suddenly appeared over the newest runway and fired a spread of rockets into it, ripping up 20 metres of tarmac and blasting tons of concrete into the air in a massive explosion before a Hetz-class Israeli gunboat fired on to the other runways.

Two of Middle East Airlines' new Airbuses were left untouched but, within minutes, the airport was deserted as passengers fled back to their homes and hotels.

The flight indicators told the whole story: Paris, no flight, London, no flight, Cairo, no flight, Dubai, no flight, Baghdad - from the cauldron into the fire if anyone had chosen to take it - no flight. Someone was playing "Don't Cry For Me, Argentina" over the public address system.

Then the Israelis went for the hezbollah television station, Al-Manar, clipping off its antenna with a missile but failing to put the station off air. That might be a more understandable target - "Manar," after all, broadcasts hezbollah propaganda. But was it really designed to find or recover the two Israeli soldiers captured on Wednesday? Or to take revenge for the nine Israelis killed in the same incident, one of the blackest days in recent Israeli Army history although not as black as it was for the 36 Lebanese civilians killed in the previous 24 hours.

An Israeli woman was also killed by a hezbollah rocket fired into Israel. So, in the grim exchange rate of these wretched conflicts, one Israeli death equals just over three Lebanese; it's a fair bet the exchange rate will grow more murderous.

And by afternoon, the threats had grown worse. Israel would not "sit idly by." It ordered the entire population of the southern suburbs - home to hezbollah's headquarters - to flee their homes by 3pm.

Save for a few hundred families, they stubbornly refused to leave. Everywhere in Lebanon could now be a target, the Israelis announced. If Israel bombed the suburbs, the hezbollah roared, it would fire its long-range Katyushas at the Israeli city of Haifa. One of them had apparently already damaged an Israeli air base at Miron, a fact concealed at the time by Israeli censors.

It certainly frightened Lebanon's Gulf tourists who packed the roads from Bhamdoun in their 4x4s, fleeing for the safety of Syria and flights home from Damascus. Another little economic death for Lebanon.

But what did all this mean, this ranting and threatening? I sat at home in the early afternoon, going through my files of Israeli statements. It turned out that Israel had threatened not to "sit idly by" (or occasionally "stand idly by") in Lebanon on at least six occasions in the past 26 years, most famously when the late Israeli prime minister Menachem Begin promised that he would not "stand idly by" while Christians were threatened here in 1980 - only to withdraw his soldiers and leave the Christians to their bloody fate three years later.

The Lebanese are always left to their fate. Israel's Prime Minister, Ehud Olmert, says he holds the Lebanese government responsible for the attacks on the border that breached the international frontier on Wednesday.

But Mr. Olmert and everyone knows that the weak and fractious government of the Lebanese Prime Minister Fouad Siniora isn't capable of controlling a single militiaman, let alone the hezbollah.

Yet wasn't this the same set of Lebanese political leaders congratulated by the United States last year for its democratic elections and its freedom from Syria? Indeed, a man who sees Bush as a friend - perhaps "saw" is a better word - is Saad Hariri, son of the ex-Lebanese prime minister Rafik Hariri who built much of the infrastructure that Israel is now destroying and whose murder last year - by Syrian agents? - supposedly outraged Mr Bush.

Yesterday morning, Saad Hariri, the son, was flying into Beirut when America's Israeli allies arrived to bomb the airport. He had to turn round as his aircraft skulked off to Cyprus for refuge.

But it was the undercurrent of terror-speak that was particularly frightening yesterday.

Lebanon was an "axis of terror," Israel was "fighting terror on all fronts." During the morning, I had to cut across an interview with an Australian radio station when an Israeli reporter stated - totally untruthfully - that there were Iranian Revolutionary Guards in Lebanon and that not all Syria's troops had left.

And the reason why the Israelis had attacked Beirut's infinitely secure and carefully monitored airport, used by diplomats and European leaders, a facility as safe as any in Europe? Because, so said the Israelis, it was "a central hub for the transfer of weapons and supplies to the hezbollah terrorist organisation." If the Israelis really want to know where that hub is, they should be looking at Damascus airport. But they do know that, don't they?

And so it is terror, terror, terror again and Lebanon is once more to be depicted as the mythic terror center of the Middle East along, I suppose, with Gaza. And the West Bank. And Syria. And, of course, Iraq. And Iran. And Afghanistan. And who knows where next?

the reasons invoked by the israeli are outrageous.

[Slashead]

WAT-EVER, I'm happy you're not Israel's Prime minister...

[Where is Hassan Nasrallah ?]

WAT-EVER, I'm happy you're not Israel's Prime minister...

i would do it.
i would do 50/50 and share the land, we'll all listen to a big GNR concert in jerusalem or somewhere.

but you know, i think it's lost. our generation. things are dead now. all fucked up. israel. iran. all fucked up.

Iran, Israel and islamic terroris, are the root of all evil in this world. they're all full of hate.