A Reason for no CITR?

[Neemo]

i don`t think axl gets brian may to play on catcher in the rye to make it sound like slash. axl wanted robin in 96 to play lead for gnr when slash was still in the band by the way. so it`s not like he told him to play a slash-like solo on the blues to recapture the lack of slash.

You're a bit fucked up on your timeline....Matt suggested Robin as a replacement for Gilby i think...Slash Quit October 30, 1996 and Robin Joined mid -1997 and Robin then left in 199 then Brian May came in to record with Axl to replace Robins parts in late 1999 then robin returned in october of 2000...

I'm sure that after Slash left there would be some desire to right a Slash-like song as well as some experimental peices...

Buckethead didn't join the band until 2000 so the IRS/Better/Twat leaks must be from the timeframe of 2000-2004 so before the tour or after...i think that 2002 is safe to say was not a recording year

[ppbebe]

@ ppbebe to me TWAT is unlike any other GnR tune I know sorrry i can't picture the similarities between it and estranged

I even thought it might be, er, so to speak, a sequel to estranged.
Listen to the bit about "tiiiiiiiiime".

Guitar riff wise, do you mean The Garden and CITR sound alike? Because if not I dont see the comparison since one is a mid-tempo piano song and the other is a really spaced out, crazy ass song

I said "the vibes".
Gitter riff wise, the blues and CITR have something in common. A touch of Queen.

[AxlsMainMan]

The guys in the band now are all professional musicians correct?

Im sure they are well capable of adapting to change and taking on new influences, i.e. past Gn'R influences.

These guys were originally brought in to help Axl fulfill his artistic vision on this right?

I dont think they'd be there now if they were incapable of playing what Axl wanted them to play or how he wants them to play it.

In any sense though, I really view it as Axl "recreating" anything.

He maybe drawing on past musical output to the extent where the new material sounds reminiscent, but to me, as Ive said, he's taking it to the next level without rewriting what's already written.

Give Axl way more credit than that Neemo...the dude is way to bright and gifted to write music as if he were a one trick pony

How is that description a musical collaboration? they were brought in to play what they played best...not to write something like the old band made. from what i gather they are there to make a record as a collaborative effort...to take all the different styles they each represent and make it into a melting pot of yummy goodness for our ears. It's not supposed to be what Axl wants them to play it's supposed to be what they all agree to play.

this is all assuming that you have the same opinion as me on those tunes resembling other tunes...but i don't see how you can say that they don't resemble old tunes then compare them to old tunes that makes no sense

@ ppbebe to me TWAT is unlike any other GnR tune I know sorrry i can't picture the similarities between it and estranged

They absolutely are making this record as a collaborative effort, but we all know who has the most power it what goes on it...that's essentially what I was trying to get across by that point.

If Axl wants to record material very reminiscent of the original material, the new guys are more than capable.

Perhaps while Axl's own musical interests, and influences change, he will always draw on what the new guys as you said "are best at" to add even a much richer depth to the body of new material they have been recording.

Unitil we hear the record, it's all speculation anways..

I said "the vibes".

Oh...I got ya know...

Certain parts of Catcher really do sound really spaced out and eerie much alike The Garden.

Gitter riff wise, the blues and CITR have something in common. A touch of Queen

Now Im gettin' somewhere..

[WARose]

i don`t think axl gets brian may to play on catcher in the rye to make it sound like slash. axl wanted robin in 96 to play lead for gnr when slash was still in the band by the way. so it`s not like he told him to play a slash-like solo on the blues to recapture the lack of slash.

You're a bit fucked up on your timeline....Matt suggested Robin as a replacement for Gilby i think...Slash Quit October 30, 1996 and Robin Joined mid -1997 and Robin then left in 199 then Brian May came in to record with Axl to replace Robins parts in late 1999 then robin returned in october of 2000...

I'm sure that after Slash left there would be some desire to right a Slash-like song as well as some experimental peices...

Buckethead didn't join the band until 2000 so the IRS/Better/Twat leaks must be from the timeframe of 2000-2004 so before the tour or after...i think that 2002 is safe to say was not a recording year

i think i was completely right about my timeline 

i read somewhere that axl wanted robin to play lead in gnr way before slash quit the band and he actually joined. and i`m talking about the twat/IRS demos that have only robin on lead guitar. send me a pm if you don`t have those

[Neemo]

Unitil we hear the record, it's all speculation anways..

so true but this is a great discussion...thanks to you 3, I'm enjoying it alot

[AxlsMainMan]

Unitil we hear the record, it's all speculation anways..

so true but this is a great discussion...thanks to you 3, I'm enjoying it alot

Exactly man.

I only wish alot more discussions in this section could be this civil...

I mean let's face it...we've gone 2 and half pages now without one insult towards eachother...

Music is intrepreted by everyone differently...especially Gn'R music since it's so emotional, and complex at times, so it's only natural pretty much everyone will have different opinions on the old vs. new material, while still picking up on a few of the same things

[WARose]

Unitil we hear the record, it's all speculation anways..

so true but this is a great discussion...thanks to you 3, I'm enjoying it alot

Exactly man.

I only wish alot more discussions in this section could be this civil...

I mean let's face it...we've gone 2 and half pages now without one insult towards eachother...

believe me or not, but i thought the exact same thing. some bans were really helpful i guess

[VolcomStone]

it also pisses me off that people use the term "straight ahead rockers" ALL THE TIME here.  that sounds sooooo gay

[Neemo]

I even thought it might be, er, so to speak, a sequel to estranged.
Listen to the bit about "tiiiiiiiiime".

Ah yeah i hear what you mean now...but only that little run...I mean Axl's vocal patterns and the general Guitar Style are wayy off from UYI GnR..at least to my ears...I agree about the sequel though...totally I've been meaning to listen to TWAT but have the estranged video running. To me, if anything, there are more similarities to Maddy and Rhiad in TWAT way moreso than resemblences to Estranged

If Axl wants to record material very reminiscent of the original material, the new guys are more than capable.

Perhaps while Axl's own musical interests, and influences change, he will always draw on what the new guys as you said "are best at" to add even a much richer depth to the body of new material they have been recording.

See i think that intitially the plan was to make another tradition aguns sounding record, a followup to UYI's, but as the guys started to know each other more and explore their chemistry with each other some things happened and shit changed and from there their very own style popped up...which will form the bulk of the new record(s) but there are a few left over elements from early on...ie The Blues and TWAT

Gitter riff wise, the blues and CITR have something in common. A touch of Queen

Now Im gettin' somewhere..

see I'm with ya both here too, which makes me wonder if Brian had a hand in writing the blues too.

so OMG is in the same vein as WTTJ?

no. but is there another song you`d put in the same "category" (i`ll never use that word again.. ) as "oh my god". to me both songs are unique....as any gnr song. of course the sound of songs like "mr. brownstone" and "it`s so easy" is quite similar, but it has more to do with them being recorded at the same time, instead of them actually really being similar. i think there`s an interview in which duff mentions how appetite sounds like one style, but it`s actually a melting pot of different influences.

But to me this is what a record should strive for...be different yet the same...one of the most beautiful things about Slash...don't matter what he does when you hear him play guitar you know its him...I'd like this GnR to have thier very own style and sound...I wanna be able to (or more i want the general public to) know when they hear a GnR song that Slash is from the past and there are new guys runnin' the show now

[Neemo]

Music is intrepreted by everyone differently...especially Gn'R music since it's so emotional, and complex at times, so it's only natural pretty much everyone will have different opinions on the old vs. new material, while still picking up on a few of the same things

Yeah it is too bad more discussions like this don't pop up...but it makes them that much more sweet when they finally do

When the CD drops it's gonna be brutal around here

[ppbebe]

To me, if anything, there are more similarities to Maddy and Rhiad in TWAT way moreso than resemblences to Estranged

I wouldn't deny that. The thing is that apparently Twat, better and IRS or the new songs played live are in the later stage of the writing process than where the leaked CITR was then.
 

so true but this is a great discussion...thanks to you 3, I'm enjoying it alot

Exactly man.

I only wish alot more discussions in this section could be this civil...

I mean let's face it...we've gone 2 and half pages now without one insult towards eachother...

believe me or not, but i thought the exact same thing. some bans were really helpful i guess

Ditto. When no hate is involved, exchanging different views is this great and fruitful even if we don't agree on anything. Like said in "better".
About the pricks maybe we could just ignore them... No we couldn't warose, huh?

Unitil we hear the record, it's all speculation anways..

axl's latest description of the album

"I'm trying to do something different. Some of the arrangements are kind of like Queen. Some people are going to say, 'It doesn't sound like Axl Rose, it doesn't sound like Guns n' Roses.'" He then smiles and adds, "But you'll like at least a few songs on there."

I quote myself from an old thread about the comments above.

well i don`t now much of the music queen did so i`d really like to know what "kind of like queen" arrangements are.....  i was a bit surprised that he mentioned queen in the interview. from what we`ve heard i thought it would be more like zeppelin.... perhaps both is possible...

Aye.
Actually I don't think the basic tone has changed much.

In 1999 he described the album as a melting pot. He referred to Queen concerning the diversity.

In 2006 he describes it as very complex and different.
It's some of the arrangements that are said to have resemblance to queen and not the whole album. probably we'll see a dramatic/operatic touch of the queen type on some of the songs. I guess the mention was again an example in regard to the variety for which everyone will find "at least a few" their own fav songs there.


Rose: It's a lot of different sounds. There's some other really heavy songs, there's a lot of aggressive songs, but they're all in different styles and different sounds. It is truly a melting pot.
I go back to listening to Queen -- you know, we're still hoping to have Brian May come in and do some tracks, and I got a fax today that he's coming in -- Queen had all kinds of different-style songs on their records, and that's something that I like. 'Cause I do listen to a lot of things, and I really don't like being pigeonholed to that degree, and it's something that Guns N' Roses seem to share [with Queen] a bit. With "Appetite," even though it seems to have the same sound, if you really go back, you can pull all the little parts from different influences. That's not really the case by the time we're on "Use Your Illusion." People are kind of set in their ways. ["Chinese Democracy"] is coming from all over the place.
from A conversation with Kurt Loder 1999

For these reasons, I think among the new songs we've heard so far, Better indicates the character of the album (if not of the band) the best.

[Layne Staley's Sunglasses]

Perhaps they don't play CITR because like someone mentioned the TWAT reason...it's too complex.  That song has so many layers, it would be hard to duplicate.

Also, Don't Cry's (original) lyrics were oh so cheesy.  Alt. really makes the song better, but if going na na na na is worse than holding one note for 40 seconds, I don't know what to say.

Catcher is a very good, heartfelt song.  A window to Axl's soul.  Songs like this mean more to certain people than others.  And that's fine.  CD will be a smorgasbord, everyone will like something on the album.

And for a personal opinion, I'm not saying it's awful and I'll hate it, but TWAT is junk, IMHO.  The lyrics are great, but musically it stinks.  So does Madagascar.  Whoever said they were in the same vein was correct.  Madagascar is lyrically and musically weak.  The best songs so far are Better, IRS, The Blues.  If the rest of the album is like those songs, I won't mind having those "fillers", so to say....

[VolcomStone]

too complicated to play live?  the band has three guitarists and two keyboardists.  there shouldn't be ANYTHING "too complicated" for them to play!

[Layne Staley's Sunglasses]

Vocally.....

[AxlsMainMan]

Perhaps they don't play CITR because like someone mentioned the TWAT reason...it's too complex.? That song has so many layers, it would be hard to duplicate.

Also, Don't Cry's (original) lyrics were oh so cheesy.? Alt. really makes the song better, but if going na na na na is worse than holding one note for 40 seconds, I don't know what to say.

Catcher is a very good, heartfelt song.? A window to Axl's soul.? Songs like this mean more to certain people than others.? And that's fine.? CD will be a smorgasbord, everyone will like something on the album.

And for a personal opinion, I'm not saying it's awful and I'll hate it, but TWAT is junk, IMHO.? The lyrics are great, but musically it stinks.? So does Madagascar.? Whoever said they were in the same vein was correct.? Madagascar is lyrically and musically weak.? The best songs so far are Better, IRS, The Blues.? If the rest of the album is like those songs, I won't mind having those "fillers", so to say....

 ....................

Garry, Garry, Garry Garry...

Have you heard TWAT from May 12th or Madagascar from Budapest, Hungary?....Those versions of those two songs will change your mind..

I dont see how if anything you can say TWAT is musically weak...at the very least, you should be able to experience some kind of amazement or delight while listening to Bucket's solo..

[Gunnerfan]

Who says that "Catcher In The Rye" is a new song?? It was leaked in 2006 (or in the end of 2005, don't remember))
So maybe it was written in 2000 or earlier with another members...so Axl doesn't want to play it now!

Or CITR hasn't finished yet - maybe Axl and his band try to make the song as so clean as...November Rain? Why not? =)

[Neemo]

the difficulty with TWAT is that it seems to me, like it would require precision and if one person fucks up then the song is toast...it can happen it's just gotta be perfect...if there is any doubt then forget about playing it...like i said just what i think...doesn't mean that that is the case.

Garry, seriously Maddy and TWAT are fantastic tunes...maybe you just don't get it...if you don't like them then how can you be a GnR fan...or something ?

seriously though i love both those tunes far more than I like CITR And TWAT seems a very complicated peice to me....both lyrically and musically..though admittedly I haven't tried learning the song yet on guitar so i could be way off

[VolcomStone]

okay fine... you have one guy on lead vocals and about six others who can provide background vocals.  you've even got a dude in the back who can fill it all in with sample recordings or background tracks.  if "guns n roses" can't pull off a complex song, then it's a song that probably shouldn't have been written.

[AxlsMainMan]

Who says that "Catcher In The Rye" is a new song?? It was leaked in 2006 (or in the end of 2005, don't remember))
So maybe it was written in 2000 or earlier with another members...so Axl doesn't want to play it now!

Or CITR hasn't finished yet - maybe Axl and his band try to make the song as so clean as...November Rain? Why not? =)

All we really know at this point is that Brian May, may or may not appear on the final version...

[Neemo]

okay fine... you have one guy on lead vocals and about six others who can provide background vocals.? you've even got a dude in the back who can fill it all in with sample recordings or background tracks.? if "guns n roses" can't pull off a complex song, then it's a song that probably shouldn't have been written.

what are you all about? hmm? obviously they can do it they already have..

Same with estranged...it wasn't played very much for a single now was it? if they have any doubts they don't do it simple

Who says that "Catcher In The Rye" is a new song?? It was leaked in 2006 (or in the end of 2005, don't remember))
So maybe it was written in 2000 or earlier with another members...so Axl doesn't want to play it now!

Or CITR hasn't finished yet - maybe Axl and his band try to make the song as so clean as...November Rain? Why not? =)

All we really know at this point is that Brian May, may or may not appear on the final version...

and it may or may not appear on CD