A Reason for no CITR?

[Kujo]

I don't want a song I've already heard taking up space on that disk.. only 13 tracks.. I want at least half of em to be new.

This isn't directed just at you Jack so dont take this personal, but if anyone wanted Chinese Democracy to be a surprise when they first get the CD, then they shouldn't have downloaded the songs.

[Slashead]

'CitR' is a gem. I'd assume the reasons it's not been played is like 'TWAT' - it's too complicated, it definitely requires multiple listens to "get".

I agree. They played TWAT a couple of times at the beginning of the current tour, but the crowd's reactions were lukewarm... So they stoped playing it. Axl is aware that CITR sounds like a pop song that would thrown the audience. He certainly prefers to wait for the release of CD before playing it live.
Great song, by the way.

[AxlsMainMan]

Definately amongst Don't Cry, or So Fine as a genuine "soft-rock" effort

Better than So Fine but not nearly as good as Don't Cry...I don't hate CITR i just think it sounds dated but it prolly is...who knows what it sounds like now

Does any of Queen's music ever sound dated?

Sure alot of it is timeless, but when you listen to Queen, you know it's most definately 25+ years old.

Axl said alot of the material on Chinese Democracy was going to sound like Queen, which people may or may not like...and to me CITR is about as Queen influenced as a song can get

Structure wise, I doubt very little has been changed from the song except perhaps the re-recording of Brian May's parts, new vocals layed down, and an extended, or tightened up outro..

[Neemo]

Does any of Queen's music ever sound dated?

Sure alot of it is timeless, but when you listen to Queen, you know it's most definately 25+ years old.

Well if i ever get a chance to buy a new GnR album again I want GnR songs...not Queen songs

It's just not my thing...I rather enjoy the musical direction of the other "new" songs Better, IRS, CD, RATB, Maddy, TWAT, SW...the blues and CITR seem to me like they should be B-Sides from the UYI's or something...doesn't mean they suck or anything just means that we've been there done that kinda thing

[oldgunsfan]

For what its worth - Im a long time fan and CITR was the first of the leaks to click with me. In fact, it was the only one I liked for a while.

it's worth as much as anyone else's opinion

[AxlsMainMan]

Does any of Queen's music ever sound dated?

Sure alot of it is timeless, but when you listen to Queen, you know it's most definately 25+ years old.

Well if i ever get a chance to buy a new GnR album again I want GnR songs...not Queen songs

It's just not my thing...I rather enjoy the musical direction of the other "new" songs Better, IRS, CD, RATB, Maddy, TWAT, SW...the blues and CITR seem to me like they should be B-Sides from the UYI's or something...doesn't mean they suck or anything just means that we've been there done that kinda thing

I dont think there will only be one, specific underlying musical direction on Chinese Democracy.

Sure were going to get our straight ahead rockers, and our Axl epics, but did you really think you'd escape the beauty of Axl's piano ballad, if for only Gn'R album?

Sure the Blues and Catcher sound very UYI inspired, but I instead choose to view them as Axl taking that very formula to the next level of song writing

[Neemo]

Does any of Queen's music ever sound dated?

Sure alot of it is timeless, but when you listen to Queen, you know it's most definately 25+ years old.

Well if i ever get a chance to buy a new GnR album again I want GnR songs...not Queen songs

It's just not my thing...I rather enjoy the musical direction of the other "new" songs Better, IRS, CD, RATB, Maddy, TWAT, SW...the blues and CITR seem to me like they should be B-Sides from the UYI's or something...doesn't mean they suck or anything just means that we've been there done that kinda thing

I dont think there will only be one, specific underlying musical direction on Chinese Democracy.

Sure were going to get our straight ahead rockers, and our Axl epics, but did you really think you'd escape the beauty of Axl's piano ballad, if for only Gn'R album?

Sure the Blues and Catcher sound very UYI inspired, but I instead choose to view them as Axl taking that very formula to the next level of song writing

I understand where you are coming from but why try and perfect something that was nearly perfect anyway? seriously you can't get much better than DC, NR and Estranged? why bother trying? to show you can still do it with out the other guys....c'mon...like i said i don't hate those 2 tunes...just the orig band did it better IMO (In comparison to the blues and CITR) i think they are more on the right track with the other tunes i already mentioned...The masses will definately appreciate the 2 "piano Ballads" more though...personally I think that if there are ballads on the new CD with the new band that they should be more like the new Maddy/TWAT sound and less like the old DC/NR sound

[ppbebe]

Does any of Queen's music ever sound dated?

Yep.

Axl said alot of the material on Chinese Democracy was going to sound like Queen,

Nope. He said SOME of the ARRENGEMENTS were kinda   like Queen.

[AxlsMainMan]

Axl is building on what he's already accomplished because I feel he doesn't want his career to become what the "Rolling Stones" career for example, has become: release new music, yet there is no music growth, or variation...it all sounds almost the same.

He's perfecting whatever music he's written, and has obviously refused, and will contine to refuse to release any of it until he feels it matches, or excels past that of the strengths and timelessness of the original material.

Sure it's easy to say CITR sound's UYI-ish, but like I said..the song sounds like a UYI song taken to the next level, or at least modernized.

November Rain: "Dont you need sometime....on you're own... ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Catcher:........Na.....Na...Na..Na.Na.Na...Na..Na...Na..Na..Na..Na.NA!

Both songs are equally catchy in my opinion, but I just think the younger generation would find alot more appeal in Catcher, that NR, despite it's obvious timelessness.

Maddy & TWAT are nothing like Catcher, NR, or Dont Cry in my opinion...there more along the lines of an epic like Coma or Estranged...

Another case and point...look at TWAT, that song is highly reminiscent of Estranged, Axl's just added orchestra over it, with a faster guitar player...once again, taken a past formula and either experimenting with it, or merely taking it to the next level

[AxlsMainMan]

Does any of Queen's music ever sound dated?

Yep.

Axl said alot of the material on Chinese Democracy was going to sound like Queen,

Nope. He said SOME of the ARRENGEMENTS were kinda ? like Queen.

What's your point?

I was recalling the article to best my memory since it's not in front of my face..

Is it necessary to split hairs?

Alot vs. some, Material vs. arrangements...huge difference of interpretation..

EDIT: Also, it's common knowledge one of Axl's biggest influences has always been cited as Mr. Mercury correct?

[Neemo]

Sure it's easy to say CITR sound's UYI-ish, but like I said..the song sounds like a UYI song taken to the next level, or at least modernized.

November Rain: "Dont you need sometime....on you're own...
Catcher:........Na.....Na...Na..Na.Na.Na...Na..Na...Na..Na..Na..Na.NA!

are you for real? at least talk about a part where he actually sings

that's like comparing Steven Tyler's lyrics on Dream On to his "Whack-gak-gak-gak-owww" on Amazing

[AxlsMainMan]

Sure it's easy to say CITR sound's UYI-ish, but like I said..the song sounds like a UYI song taken to the next level, or at least modernized.

November Rain: "Dont you need sometime....on you're own...
Catcher:........Na.....Na...Na..Na.Na.Na...Na..Na...Na..Na..Na..Na.NA!

are you for real? at least talk about a part where he actually sings

that's like comparing Steven Tyler's lyrics on Dream On to his "Whack-gak-gak-gak-owww" on Amazing

 

Haha, man, I was trying to use the most simplistic example.

Comparing those parts of those two songs, melodically, to me at least, both songs are much along the same lines and definately penned by the same man

EDIT: Let's look at it this way, if you want a slight indication what a musician's forthcoming material might sound like, or what influences it might wear on it's sleeve...you can always look to the past for future reference.

[WARose]

Does any of Queen's music ever sound dated?

Yep.

Axl said alot of the material on Chinese Democracy was going to sound like Queen,

Nope. He said SOME of the ARRENGEMENTS were kinda   like Queen.

What's your point?

I was recalling the article to best my memory since it's not in front of my face..

Is it necessary to split hairs?

Alot vs. some, Material vs. arrangements...huge difference of interepretation..

EDIT: Also, it's common knowledge one of Axl's biggest influences has always been cited as Mr. Mercury correct?

well... there`s a huge difference between "sounding like queen" and "having arrangements similar to queen".... the latter does NOT mean that the songs are very queen influenced, regarding queen`s music`s general sound.

Axl is building on what he's already accomplished because I feel he doesn't want his career to become what the "Rolling Stones" career for example, has become: release new music, yet there is no music growth, or variation...it all sounds almost the same.

He's perfecting whatever music he's written, and has obviously refused, and will contine to refuse to release any of it until he feels it matches, or excels past that of the strengths and timelessness of the original material.

Sure it's easy to say CITR sound's UYI-ish, but like I said..the song sounds like a UYI song taken to the next level, or at least modernized.

November Rain: "Dont you need sometime....on you're own...                  Catcher:........Na.....Na...Na..Na.Na.Na...Na..Na...Na..Na..Na..Na.NA!

Both songs are equally catchy in my opinion, but I just think the younger generation would find alot more appeal in Catcher, that NR, despite it's obvious timelessness.

Maddy & TWAT are nothing like Catcher, NR, or Dont Cry in my opinion...there more along the lines of an epic like Coma or Estranged...

Another case and point...look at TWAT, that song is highly reminiscent of Estranged, Axl's just added orchestra over it, with a faster guitar player...once again, taken a past formula and either experimenting with it, or merely taking it to the next level

i disagree with you. it`s not "taking a past formula and either experimenting with it, or taking it to the next level", it`s simply making new music that in some way resembles the style the old band had.... of course more modern and complex, with new influences....

I understand where you are coming from but why try and perfect something that was nearly perfect anyway? seriously you can't get much better than DC, NR and Estranged? why bother trying? to show you can still do it with out the other guys....c'mon...like i said i don't hate those 2 tunes...just the orig band did it better IMO (In comparison to the blues and CITR) i think they are more on the right track with the other tunes i already mentioned...The masses will definately appreciate the 2 "piano Ballads" more though...personally I think that if there are ballads on the new CD with the new band that they should be more like the new Maddy/TWAT sound and less like the old DC/NR sound

again, i disagree. do you think axl sits in his LA mansion and wants to write old gnr songs??

to me, there`s no category to put gnr songs into except for "rocker", "ballad" or a mix of both..... any gnr song fits in its own category IMO. what i want to say is, i don`t see how you`re able to put the blues/citr and twat/maddy in two categorys.... they`re just songs to me....

and i`d wait for the actual studio versions to compare the songs to the old material anyways...

[Neemo]

Haha, man, I was trying to use the most simplistic example.

Comparing those parts of those two songs, melodically, to me at least, both songs are much along the same lines and definately penned by the same man

EDIT: Let's look at it this way, if you want a slight indication what a musician's forthcoming material might sound like, or what influences it might wear on it's sleeve...you can always look to the past for future reference.

 

Yeah, for sure, but in this instance a large part of the songwriting core of the band has been replaced by people who are from differnet musical styles, tastes and backgrounds of music...why would you try and recreate something from those other guys if you are not those guys and that is not your strength?

again, i disagree. do you think axl sits in his LA mansion and wants to write old gnr songs??

to me, there`s no category to put gnr songs into except for "rocker", "ballad" or a mix of both..... any gnr song fits in its own category IMO. what i want to say is, i don`t see how you`re able to put the blues/citr and twat/maddy in two categorys.... they`re just songs to me....

and i`d wait for the actual studio versions to compare the songs to the old material anyways...

no definately not WARose But I wouldn't be surprised it CITR and the Blues were written a long time ago, before the Guys knew what direction they wanted to go...like '98-'99 ish...and like AMM said what better way to look forward than to look back first and see where they came from?

Also OMG is in the same vein as WTTJ? I don't think so. All I'm saying is that TWAT and Maddy are definately not Slash guitar influenced tunes...they are a new sound....the New GnR sound....now Blues and CITR, they seem to me to be trying to recapture some past glory...but you can't write a slash song without the man,,,,ya see what I'm trying to say?

[ppbebe]

Alot vs. some, Material vs. arrangements...huge difference of interepretation..

You really can't see the difference or what?
Your line would make people think that axl meant the album would sound very much like queen.

Sure the Blues and Catcher sound very UYI inspired

just the orig band did it better IMO

I beg to differ.
I don't see particular resemblance to the uyis, let alone B-Sides materials from them, in those 2 songs.
If forced I'd say the garden and CITR have vibes or something in common.

Twat on the other hand does show some resemblance to Estranged.

[AxlsMainMan]

i disagree with you. it`s not "taking a past formula and either experimenting with it, or taking it to the next level", it`s simply making new music that in some way resembles the style the old band had.... of course more modern and complex, with new influences....

Oh my...how is that the slightest bit different from what I said?

"Making new music that resembles the style of the old band, while adding more complex and NEW influences..."

Well to make NEW music that resembles the style of the old band you might have to rely on a past formula or past influences correct?...

To add more modern and complex styles...with NEW influences, you techinically have to experiment with you're past musical approach correct?...and by doing so, theoretically you're taking what originally made you so successful in the first place, i.e. a formula, and taking it to the next level....

[AxlsMainMan]

Yeah, for sure, but in this instance a large part of the songwriting core of the band has been replaced by people who are from differnet musical styles, tastes and backgrounds of music...why would you try and recreate something from those other guys if you are not those guys and that is not your strength?

Im not sure what you mean here Neemo...

The guys in the band now are all professional musicians correct?

Im sure they are well capable of adapting to change and taking on new influences, i.e. past Gn'R influences.

These guys were originally brought in to help Axl fulfill his artistic vision on this right?

I dont think they'd be there now if they were incapable of playing what Axl wanted them to play or how he wants them to play it.

In any sense though, I really view it as Axl "recreating" anything.

He maybe drawing on past musical output to the extent where the new material sounds reminiscent, but to me, as Ive said, he's taking it to the next level without rewriting what's already written.

Give Axl way more credit than that Neemo...the dude is way to bright and gifted to write music as if he were a one trick pony

I beg to differ.
I don't see particular resemblance to the uyis, let alone B-Sides materials from them, in those 2 songs.
If forced I'd say the garden and CITR have vibes or something in common.

Twat on the other hand does show some resemblance to Estranged.

Listen to Breakdown and then Catcher in the Rye ppbebe, if anything I think Breakdown sounds closer to CITR than November Rain.

Guitar riff wise, do you mean The Garden and CITR sound alike? Because if not I dont see the comparison since one is a mid-tempo piano song and the other is a really spaced out, crazy ass song

[Neemo]

The guys in the band now are all professional musicians correct?

Im sure they are well capable of adapting to change and taking on new influences, i.e. past Gn'R influences.

These guys were originally brought in to help Axl fulfill his artistic vision on this right?

I dont think they'd be there now if they were incapable of playing what Axl wanted them to play or how he wants them to play it.

In any sense though, I really view it as Axl "recreating" anything.

He maybe drawing on past musical output to the extent where the new material sounds reminiscent, but to me, as Ive said, he's taking it to the next level without rewriting what's already written.

Give Axl way more credit than that Neemo...the dude is way to bright and gifted to write music as if he were a one trick pony

How is that description a musical collaboration? they were brought in to play what they played best...not to write something like the old band made. from what i gather they are there to make a record as a collaborative effort...to take all the different styles they each represent and make it into a melting pot of yummy goodness for our ears. It's not supposed to be what Axl wants them to play it's supposed to be what they all agree to play.

this is all assuming that you have the same opinion as me on those tunes resembling other tunes...but i don't see how you can say that they don't resemble old tunes then compare them to old tunes that makes no sense

@ ppbebe to me TWAT is unlike any other GnR tune I know sorrry i can't picture the similarities between it and estranged

[WARose]

I wouldn't be surprised it CITR and the Blues were written a long time ago...like '98-'99 ish...

i`m pretty confident you`re right about that....  the demo of citr was recorded in 99 when robin rejoined NIN. i can?t remember when the first rolling stone article about CD is from, but it was around 2000 i think. anyways... lots of the new songs we heard were mentioned back then allready, like IRS, TWAT and madagascar (the blues, too if i remember correctly...). i also believe the recently leaked "new" demos of TWAT and IRS are from that time as well...

so OMG is in the same vein as WTTJ?

no. but is there another song you`d put in the same "category" (i`ll never use that word again.. ) as "oh my god". to me both songs are unique....as any gnr song.  of course the sound of songs like "mr. brownstone" and "it`s so easy" is quite similar, but it has more to do with them being recorded at the same time, instead of them actually really being similar.  i think there`s an interview in which duff mentions how appetite sounds like one style, but it`s actually a melting pot of different influences.

Blues and CITR, they seem to me to be trying to recapture some past glory...but you can't write a slash song without the man

i don`t think axl gets brian may to play on catcher in the rye to make it sound like slash. axl wanted robin in 96 to play lead for gnr when slash was still in the band by the way. so it`s not like he told him to play a slash-like solo on the blues to recapture the lack of slash.

you`re right about the "new gnr sound", but you can`t spell "new gnr" without "gnr, so it`s obvious you`ll find old elements in the new sound. axl wrote estranged in...1990? and catcher in the rye probably in the mid 90ies. it`s just axl?s style and that doesn`t change that fast i guess. look at it as a journey instead of a rehash. axl said in an interview some years ago, that he wants to slowly change the direction of the band and doesn`t want to alienate the old fans with his new music. the illusions were released 15 years ago... we didn`t get much music in between (oh my god...), so i think axl`s decision is a good one.

he did it before with you could be mine i think. he also could`ve released november rain as the first single...

[WARose]

i disagree with you. it`s not "taking a past formula and either experimenting with it, or taking it to the next level", it`s simply making new music that in some way resembles the style the old band had.... of course more modern and complex, with new influences....

Oh my...how is that the slightest bit different from what I said?

"Making new music that resembles the style of the old band, while adding more complex and NEW influences..."

Well to make NEW music that resembles the style of the old band you might have to rely on a past formula or past influences correct?...

To add more modern and complex styles...with NEW influences, you techinically have to experiment with you're past musical approach correct?...and by doing so, theoretically you're taking what originally made you so successful in the first place, i.e. a formula, and taking it to the next level....

well   you were focusing on the past formula, i was focusing on the new music. at least that the way i understood you`re post...

edit:

He maybe drawing on past musical output to the extent where the new material sounds reminiscent, but to me, as Ive said, he's taking it to the next level without rewriting what's already written.

Give Axl way more credit than that Neemo...the dude is way to bright and gifted to write music as if he were a one trick pony ok

i was probably wrong though