why are so many people anti unions

[mikegiuliana]

just curious because I am a union worker (plumber) and I always hear people complaining about unions..

I always looked at unions as the workers getting fair treatment, making decent wages, getting medical inuity, 401k, holiday vacation money you save up, you get a product guaranteed to be made by americans, get overtime if they need us to work after hours weekends holidays, etc... I only am asking this because most of us are workers not owners so why shouldn't we get a nice slice of the pie too and get benefits.. Also big shit if we strike or soemthing, it's only because owners try to weasle out and make us give something we earned away...

I look at it as if there were no unions bosses would just get even more richers charge the same prices and pay their men nothing...

I guess I'll never get it, I am proud to be a union worker..

[sandman]

i'm not union. but i appreciate them. most of my family worked in unions, and one of my best friends is a union plumber in philly.

they get a bad name cause the only time you hear about them is 1) when they go on strike, which often causes major headaches for alot of people (ex. transit strikes); and 2) if they are using "bully" tactics (Ex. forcing building owners to install expensive bathrooms, which raises costs and ultimately comes out of the general public's pockets).

but i don't have a bad thing to say about them. all careers/businesses have their dirty side.

great benefits in most unions too.   

[Brody]

I really have no probs with unions.. I have heard of stories though people who dont join the union get screwed by the union..

[pasnow]

Good question Mike.. I'm not "anti"union however I can speak as a 3rd party who is on the outside looking in, please don't be offended. I think previous posters have been right by saying we only hear of them when they are on strike, want something or are complaining. However sometimes they do go extreme. Philly here is RUN by the unions, moreso than NYC. A few lowlights for our unions recently were when MTV Real World Philly selected Philly, they backed out when unions protested the housing builders saying it wouldn't be safe etc... MTV backed out, the Mayor et al stepped in & they compromised saying the builders (I think they are contracted by MTV to build ALL the real world homes) can still build it, but the unions will have to have a few reps inspect it & oversee it($$$). So MTV agreed.

Another case is a friend of mine worked for ESPN and said they will NEVER come back here with the X games. She said it was such a nightmare as people like her (production assistant) couldn't so much as move an extension cord out of the way. She would have to get a member of the Electricians Union to do even a simple task like that. And yes, they would go off on them if they did move it themselves.

I'm not trying to bash them, but another thing I hear of is union workers working for say the transit authority (SEPTA) or other companies, doing basically custodial work. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with it, but getting $50k+/year to mop the train station floor because they're in union (mostly for the gov't, paid by taxpayers), whereas doing the same work for a corporation would earn $10-$12/hr. To make matters worse they then strike because the employer wants them to pay something like $20/paycheck to help cover the costs of healthcare. Most corporations already require their employees to pay a portion. So it's not like the union strike is actually preventing them from unfair labor practices.. It's the real world. In the private sector (non-union) if you don't like your company, you look elsewhere (EX: Prudential has bad benefits... I'll look to get a job at Merrill Lynch. Hypothetical of course, I don't know that for sure). Also don't get me wrong, teaching must be hard work putting up with kids all day, but some suburban schools get over $50k/yr even up to and over $70k and this is with summers of. Yet will be upset because the district want them to add 1 study hall a day to their schedule or something. Sometimes I do see things that yeah, the union is right on (low pay, long hours etc) I saw one school where they wanted teachers to stay late for some afterschool/day care type thing. We're talking an extra 1-2 hourrs late a day. Also saw something where cabbies in Philly protested about a year ago because the transportation authority hadn't allowed them to raise their rates in over 10 years!! WTF?

Plumbers union eh?? Funny one last philly tidbit was Comcast is going to build the largest bldg here in Philly. They started & were talked into using waterless urinals I think they were called (Save on costs & water). The Plumbers union protested saying they might be "unsafe, and unsanitary" and have not been tested out enough and protested. Comcast accepted so pipes for water are being installed in case the waterless urinals do not work.?

Like I said, just thought I'd throw some of this out there. Also, just so you know, I was laid off for 8 months in 2004 into 2005 and was willing to take just about any job with any pay. So I have little empathy for people who don't want to do the work and go on strike.

[SLCPUNK]

A lot of people are anti union and can't even tell you why. Obviously big business is not thrilled with unions and that is where the propaganda against them starts. Unions give workers rights, representation, fair pay, dignity, health care, and retirement. A union worker may make 15 dollars an hour with benefits, and overtime. While a non union worker may get half of that, with no benefits and no overtime pay. All while having his/her job hang over their head on a daily basis.

Years ago unions helped lift up the working class into middle/upper middle class. Which I think it great. A company can make a profit, and at the same time its workers were able to get ahead in life. This was when America was best I think. Working hard and paying your dues actually got you somewhere, even if you did not have a college education. You could bust your ass at a factory (no dream job by any means) and have something to show for it.

There are flaws in any system, and those in power who abuse it. But I think it is a shame to see people believe the hype about unions being "bad." Ironically it's the middle class who often spit this line out; the group that could benefit the most from unions. It goes to show how powerful misinformation can be, but also how influential and powerful the corporations who run this country can also be.

Las Vegas is a great example for unions. They have a powerful hold on that city, and everybody is a winner. Obviously there is a large pool of service jobs in that city (if you can manage to get one) and even those jobs are union.

I have found most , if not all of the opposition to unions comes from the right. I remember once reading this guy (another forum) ranting and raving about teachers unions and how unfair it was that they made so much money ?for doing nothing?. Yet it turned out  he was in a union! He found the teachers union offensive, yet was in a trade union himself! He didn?t seem to see the hypocrisy in all this though, lol.

 So I have little empathy for people who don't want to do the work and go on strike.

Going on strike and not wanting to work are two different things.

[mikegiuliana]

last line is very true, people don't realise people stirke because companies are trying to take things away you worked hard to get.. They always try to take things away during contract time.. I think a strike is a great option, you want to fuck me and take away what I earned well fuck you I'm not working then hope you make your deadline...

I'm just glad as a worked I am making money too, not just the boss making tons of dough.. Also the idea we have written rules is great.. Not like my boss can do whatever they want, they have to follow the guidlines they agreed too...

people working weekends holidays while their boss holds their jobs over their heads, working in unsafe conditions... I always hear about non union deaths

[SLCPUNK]

You know what they say about plumbers Mike?

Or rather the difference between a welder and plumber?

A: Welders take their gloves off to eat, while plumbers put their gloves on.................

 

[mikegiuliana]

ha

funny thing is have never worked on work most people think plumbers do,... I have never made a housecall or did a stopage.. My work is more new construction, highrises, new sewage treatment plants, medical gas, natural gas in hospitals (copper)

[SLCPUNK]

ha

funny thing is have never worked on work most people think plumbers do,... I have never made a housecall or did a stopage.. My work is more new construction, highrises, new sewage treatment plants, medical gas, natural gas in hospitals (copper)

That sounds a lot cleaner work then some of the alternatives........

I have done plumbing in my house and it is never easy. I never seemed to have the right wrenches.

We did use one trick once with white bread, it was rather ingenious (not my idea.)

[mikegiuliana]

what did you need to solder something then you had a valve that wouldn't hold so you threw bread in the pipe to get the joint   Jobs I've been on you'd need a loaf of italian bread to get the joints

[SLCPUNK]

what did you need to solder something then you had a valve that wouldn't hold so you threw bread in the pipe to get the joint   Jobs I've been on you'd need a loaf of italian bread to get the joints

Yea, I put white bread in it to absorb the leaking enough to solder it. It worked and then when I turned the water on it just spit the bread out. Friggin nuts!! 

[Mal Brossard]

My family, both sides, were all union members.  My grandfather on my dad's side was a Michigan copper miner, while my grandfather on my mom's side was a Michigan construction and auto worker.  The only people I've found who are anti-union are big supporters of big business.

The best one I heard out of any of them are from a guy I talk to in a hockey chat room (we constantly have politically and economically infused arguments as he's an excessively pro-big business republican, while I'm a union-favoring Libertarian).  He was a business major in college and attended a private Catholic school (all paid for by his parents' money) and absolutely hated the unions because apparently at some of the auto plants, assembly line workers get around $40 an hour, which of course is "destroying" auto companies' profits (must... try... not... to... laugh...), causing car prices to go up, therefore the unions are hurting all of us while helping only a select few.  We later found out his dad, who as I said paid for all of his schooling, was a unionized auto worker.  We all had a good laugh over this hypocrite.

Anyways, $40 an hour for an auto worker does seem a tad expensive, so I do see his point.  However, what a union traditionally stands for is certainly a noble cause-- banding together to fight for improved conditions and benefits on the job.  I don't see how anyone can be opposed to this.  Most of the opposition seems to come from percieved mob tactics to simply extort more money or else the union members all walk out and demands of "excessively high" dues from members.  Frankly, I think that's a load of crap (especially on the latter-- the benefits greatly outweigh the costs when it comes to union dues).  If I worked a job that had a union, I would join.  However, as far as I know, there is no broadcasters union, especially for Clear Channel employees.

The unionization movement of the 1880's to 1920's is an analogy I use to show why I think/hope third parties in American politics will someday (hopefully soon) be more viable.  Enough people are pissed off at the current system and if they band together, they can get something accomplished.  If people cut the attitudes of "well, it's better to pick the lesser of two evils" and look around and realize that they aren't the only ones discouraged by the current scene, things will change.

I will now stop hijacking this into a political thread and return you to your regularly scheduled meeting of the GNR Fans' Local 390.

[sandman]

another reason is the unions' ties to organized crime. that rubs some people the wrong way.

[GeorgeSteele]

another reason is the unions' ties to organized crime. that rubs some people the wrong way.

According to F.I.S.T. (an early Stallone movie and a must-see), that started because unions needed mob muscle to stand up to big business. 

Anyway, I agree in principle with the majority of the points already raised.  Unions have helped increase the standard of living for millions of workers (that's a good thing).  However, I think anti-union sentiment by the general public goes a lot deeper than right-wing brainwashing.  Not saying the following are valid reasons, but a lot of people hate unions because:

1.  Jealousy.  Anyone that works like a dog in the private sector for shit wages, no security, no benefits is not going to like a guy whose uncle got him into a union and collects triple OT on the weekends.

2.  The perception (or misconception) that unions increase the cost of living for the rest of the public (i.e., higher wages for the union butchers at Waldbaums require us to pay more for that rump roast).

3.  The fact that the public is often seriously inconvenienced by union strikes.  The New Yorkers on the board know what I'm talking about.  Of course, strikes are often the fault of management, but people always blame the union (probably because of reason #1).

4.  Stories of people getting beat up by union henchman for crossing picket lines, working for a non-union shop, or even just patronizing non-union businesses.   

[jimmythegent]

I think it's a negatively perpetuated myth to put people off collective strength by corporations

[NickNasty]

I think it's a negatively perpetuated myth to put people off collective strength by corporations

historically about right....after corporate america regained its footing following the Depression and WW II, they made a concerted effort to cast unions in a negative light.

Great Book to read about this : "The Color of Politics" By Michael Goldfield--basically a labor history which shows how unions have been trodded on in the States.

i'm union myself-and it's a good thing--id have no medical care without it, and would have a lot harder time keeping up with bills.

[D]

Unions are no longer where I live in the Coal Mines thanks to the Bloody Harlan incident.

U can find a movie about it in most old video stores called "Harlan County USA"  its about my home town and all the coal mine riots and murders due in part of unions and scabs.

The unions have been voted out here since 1973.

[pasnow]

BTW Mike, what was it that caused you to ask?? Any single incident?

[pilferk]

My feelings on unions change with the situation, and the union.

My mother's been a member of a union for 25 years.? They're good people who work hard for their membership and make sure they're treated fairly.

I WORK in a place where, quite frankly, the union is so corrupt, and so focused on their OWN well being, that the membership gets ignored, largely.? They have, over the past few years, actually COST the workers a pretty good sum of money because they preferred to play politics rather than make a deal.? What's interesting is that, when they did finally make the contract deals, they were essentially the same deals put on the table 3 to 6 months prior...but the union held off on asking the membership to vote until it was most advantageous for them to do so, from a political standpoint.? They have, continually, tried to politicize the process rather than engage in negotiations.? They've tried to force card count neutrality, as part of unionizing a larger part of our workforce, rather than engage in a secret ballot election...and they've politicized THAT process, as well, holding the community hostage, and preventing my workplace from engaging in projects for the betterment of not only the community at large, but of society as a whole.? They've misrepresented facts, and engaged in "dirty tricks" public ad campaigns that not only blatantly distorted the truth, but slandered the institution I work for.

I'm all for unions representing the worker and ensuring they are treated fairly.? What I'm not for is a union that wishes to expand it's role in a community simply for it's own sake.? I'm not for a union misusing it's membership simply to try to expand it's dues base, or to politic and curry legislative favor.? I'm not for a union politicizing a matter of public health, safety, and well being simply to further it's own ends.

I've seen far more "good" unions than bad.? But SOME of the unions are no longer satisfying the job which they were created to perform.? And some of the unions not "working" anymore are large AFL/CIO and SEIU's.? And when that happens, the "good" unions tend to get a bad rep...because the "bad" unions are sometimes larger and more high profile.

[CAFC Nick]

THEY TOOK OUR JEERRRRRBS!!!

http://tookjobs.ytmnd.com/