Overproduction / Production of CD

[Fuckin' Gunner]

In the interview that Slash and Duff made to the Virgin Radio, he mentioned how the raw tracks of the Use Your Illusion albums sounded better than the released version. Don't you think it can happen to Chinese Democracy?

Oh My God, for example, I think that a naked version of it could be better, by far, than the End of Days version.

[whitegatorz]

I love Slash as much as anybody around here, but what did he mean by this "raw tracks".  I can tell the difference between the UYI tracks then AFD but that are still great.  I think underproduction is worse than overproduction just look at Metallica's last album.  Depth to songs makes the difference for me from just crap thrown together.

[Booker Floyd]

I love Slash as much as anybody around here, but what did he mean by this "raw tracks".  

He means the tracks without the production (sound effects, etc.).

For example, "Perfect Crime" has those stupid reverse cymbal-style effects that only tarnish the the song.  Its obviously a bare-bones style riff rocker, what is the purpose of those effects?

I think underproduction is worse than overproduction just look at Metallica's last album.  Depth to songs makes the difference for me from just crap thrown together.

I disagree.  I think production only hinders hard rock...And Metallicas last album was fairly produced, I think your issue is more with the style of production - not the lack of it.

I think Chinese Democracy could be in danger of overproduction.  "Oh My God" couldnt be more produced, and a look at Axls signatures (the dopey effects in "Perfect Crime," the very produced "November Rain," "My World," "Silkworms," his infatuation with NIN and all things industrial, hiring Sean Beaven, etc.), in addition to all of the time spent making "final touches"...it definitely concerns me.

Oh My God, for example, I think that a naked version of it could be better, by far, than the End of Days version.

I would normally agree with a statement like this, but "Oh My God" is a song tailor-fitted for an industrial sound.  Therefore, a less-produced, more hard rock styled sound would dull the songs impact.  Im still not crazy about the vocal effects, but as an industrial rocker, it works.  With that said, I really dont look forward to hearing an album full of industrial music, which is why I hope it isnt too produced in the end.

[HoldenCaulfield]

There are exceptions. While more "bells and whistles" may sound like overproduction  to some of you, it sounds to me like complexity. For instance, in 'Madagascar', if you really, really listen closely, there are probably close to 10 to 12 different synths and loops going on at various times, but they are done so efficiently, they never sound too plentiful or over-bearing.  Sure, with the average band, overproduction might take a toll on the quality of the music, but these people (Axl/GNR) can do it the right way. And 'Oh My God' was pretty perfect for the type of song it is...

[badobsession81]

good post..

first question, outta interest - what are the reverse cymbal effects you are on about?

i love illusions. i love appetite. i think u need a balance. need to know when you've done enough. illusions got bloated, but only at times. sometimes i thought the production suited the song. november rain would be a pieces of drivilly whiney rubbish without the production and layering. the layering is a 'part' of the song. it makes it what it is, all those piano parts, the acoustic guitar, electric guitar, strings etc etc. and i do love axls vocal overdubs - hes been doing them since appetite anyway!

but i do agree that sometimes its wrong for some tracks, maybe right next door to hell could be rawer? i def think pretty tied up sounds too polished. i much prefer the live version on live era. dust n bones too. interestingly i think live n let die would sound better without the horns etc but with the new slant the new band put on it in the last tour - axls growl was longer and better!

anyway, am i makin any sense? id love to hear the raw versions. i suppose only then can u make fair judgement. still, i like the 't minus 1.09 and counting' etc on perfect crime!'

bob

[Booker Floyd]

For instance, in 'Madagascar', if you really, really listen closely, there are probably close to 10 to 12 different synths and loops going on at various times, but they are done so efficiently, they never sound too plentiful or over-bearing.

I disagree.  I think the synth stabs in "Madagascar," especially during the solo, suck.  I mean its bad enough theres 70 movie samples burying the music, do we need even more sound effects?

Same with "The Blues".  The RIR III version is beautiful...its bounces along steadily and is fairly direct.  Then they slow down the tempo and drown the music with the sappiest of synths and suddenly the song loses its magic to me.

first question, outta interest - what are the reverse cymbal effects you are on about?

Just listen to "Perfect Crime" - you should hear it.  Theyre continuous...

i like the 't minus 1.09 and counting' etc on perfect crime

I hate it.

[Axl4Prez2004]

i like the 't minus 1.09 and counting' etc on perfect crime

I hate it.

I don't know BookerFloyd...the veiled reference to "69" is pretty amusing.  That is the reason it's there, correct?

[Evolution]

whilst overproduction could be a worry,id just rather have it than not

[younggunner]

The whole Cd being over produced is way overblown. We have no idea how they have blended the songs and how the material will sound. Just because they bring in different types of producers doesnt mean it the album will turn out to be a particular genre. As Axl and the band has said many times, this album will be a melting pot of all genres.

If you dont like samples in a certain song or beats thats your problem. If you can produce it in a better way become a producer than talk...

Just because the material on cd is being worked on and the band is trying to make it the most perfect of albums isnt  aband thing.

Everyone talks about how raw appetite was...and it was. BUt they worked on those songs over and over until they got it right...heres a quote for you all...
"We kept developing it until it we got it right. [With] "Appetite," everything had been worked on, and worked on, and worked on. That was not the case with "Use Your Illusion."

Just because they are messing around with the songs to get it to beng "perfect" doesnt mean its being overproduced.

With that said, I really dont look forward to hearing an album full of industrial music, which is why I hope it isnt too produced in the end.

WHy keep bringing up the same old stuff. It has been said countless times that the material on cd is not all industrial or techno. People have said it sounds more like appetite than anything else. When Brian May comments on the material and says its amazing, i would bet its safe to say that its not a nin album hes commenting on.

Omg is a cool song. Not a classic we know that. Its something different. Annd its not overproduced. You think its overproduced because its an industrial song. If you go by that than every non bluesy type songs is overproduced. Wake up we are not in the 80's anymore.

I mean its bad enough theres 70 movie samples burying the music, do we need even more sound effects?

Its telling a story. SO yes we need it.

Same with "The Blues".  The RIR III version is beautiful...its bounces along steadily and is fairly direct.  Then they slow down the tempo and drown the music with the sappiest of synths and suddenly the song loses its magic to me.

I totally agree. The rio version is awesome. I liek the guitars from the last tour better though. But the version from rio is great.

But dude, that doesnt mean it wont sound liek that on the album. You have to stop making these assumptions about how the songs will be overproduced and the versions they use. They are experimenting relax.

The clips on the boston promo show me that the sound of the songs will not be an issue.

There are exceptions. While more "bells and whistles" may sound like overproduction  to some of you, it sounds to me like complexity. For instance, in 'Madagascar', if you really, really listen closely, there are probably close to 10 to 12 different synths and loops going on at various times, but they are done so efficiently, they never sound too plentiful or over-bearing.  Sure, with the average band, overproduction might take a toll on the quality of the music, but these people (Axl/GNR) can do it the right way. And 'Oh My God' was pretty perfect for the type of song it is...

Excellent post. I totally agree.  Its liek when peopel say "band "x" sold out because they got away from there "rnr roots" yet the same people say that band "y" sux because they have the same old sound"

You cant please everyone. I for one want gnr to push the envelope liek they did with appetite and attemptied to do with the illusions.

Its what you liek. People liek booker might not like all the effects and production the same way i think vr doesnt bring anything fresh and new to the table. Its the same old stuff to me nothing new and different. Liek i said its what floats your boat.

Gnr  have had all the time in the world so there is no doubt in my mind that this overproduction stuff wont even be the issue. They have beatent every song down to its bare notes. ANd there is nothing wrong with that. If the finished prdcut is a masterpiece then who the fuk cares how they made the masterpiece.

Liek axl said about afd, they beat those songs down to till they got it right. Look how that turned out. They didnt do the same with the illusions. They had different directions but never beaten down every path. That is hwy its a lil choppy but you see the potential and greatness. They just didnt take thier time with the illusons.
Axl is one smart fuckin guy-zak wylde.....Relax people....just hope bucket is tsill with us. that is my only worry. cant wait til rio peace

[MR.BROWNSTONE]

I don't this will happen with Chinese Democracy at all.  

Like younggunner was tlking about when Axl said, they played the hell out of the ATF songs and that's why it was so great. I'm sure they are doing the same with theses new songs.      

[grog mug]

People will argue over this CD being overproduced if it takes years to come out.  Or underproduced if Axl just put it out right after TSI.  Either way there will always be an argument, take what you get if you even get it.

[Gunner80]

I think all of Gn'R's albums are brilliant just the way they are.

[Axl_owns_dexter]

If GnR had released the best of the Illusion material in 1991 as one cd instead of 2 I don't think they would have lost momentum like they did.  Then, they could have released the rest as B-sides.

Also, if Axl had laid down the vocals on UYI in 88 instead of 90, it would have added so much to the songs.  But that is just my opinion.

[duga]

How can you overproduce a song like 'Coma' ?  

[norway]

You can't, but i hate the count to eight on perfect crime

Slash wanted to make a raw album, you can do that with axl voice...
however. with give more producing it gets more listener friendly. You can sit down wiht headset amd listen to details in the music. Appetite has a right here right now in your face (yes right next door to hell too), but the illusions has more of that headset friendly approach. Appetite makes you wanna put the music up high and crank the fuck out of it

[matt88]

I wish i could here these raw tracks........It sounds really rocky

[Christos AG]

I wish i could here these raw tracks........It sounds really rocky

Maybe Slash should release them on the internet so we could compare them and choose...

[duga]

I wish i could here these raw tracks........It sounds really rocky

You can hear a few of them like Don't damn me and Don't Cry on the net.

[Mutherfunker]

Man, this is a non-topic if there ever was one.

What you like in songs in term of production is personal taste. When you say over-produced you have to have a reference point which isn't really possible as there is no definition of exactly how much production is correct.

Albums are produced to sound how the band/producer want them to sound. When you hear a song on CD it is the version they think is the best. You either like the song or you don't. A differently produced version wouldn't be Guns N' Roses.

@#$%Muther

[bolton]

i agree with slash and duff.
for example civil war live was more better than uyi2 civil war(i loved civil war from alpine valey)