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Author Topic: Progress in Afganistan  (Read 3553 times)
gilld1
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« on: March 21, 2006, 01:08:14 PM »

The Afgan government is getting ready to execute a man for converting from Islam to Christianity.  Coversion is against the law and those guilty are rewarded with death.  How can this be? I thought the Taliban was hiding in South Dakota?  I am glad that change has taken place in Afganistan.

Any thoughts?
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« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2006, 01:19:20 PM »

I'm afraid this one may get locked or deleted for being political.  I could be wrong though.

Either way it's a good point.  To me, religious beliefs are personal and irrelevant.  I feel that it's wrong to try and force everyone to believe something, when in their minds, they'll believe what they want.  The thing that bothers me about some people is that they try to impose their belief systems on other people, which of course is a violation of people's rights.  However, there are still societies where politics are heavily influenced by certain religious beliefs and we must learn to accept that such societies still exist.
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« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2006, 01:28:00 PM »

The Afgan government is getting ready to execute a man for converting from Islam to Christianity.  Coversion is against the law and those guilty are rewarded with death.  How can this be? I thought the Taliban was hiding in South Dakota?  I am glad that change has taken place in Afganistan.

Any thoughts?

God Bless America!
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Axl_owns_dexter
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« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2006, 03:17:46 PM »

You can't make a liberal democracy out of a bunch of backwards fundamentalists.  Why our leaders didn't realize this, nobody knows.
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« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2006, 03:20:30 PM »

  Why our leaders didn't realize this, nobody knows.

On the contrary, I think plenty of people know.
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gilld1
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« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2006, 03:51:53 PM »

We were making some progress over there but this seems to take us 2-3 steps backwards.  If the govt wants to throw away buches of money I'll take it and put it to good use, better than Karzai anyway!
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« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2006, 04:19:33 PM »

I think this proves just one thing. That despite all of Bush's crap about liberating the Middle East, nothing has changed. Whatsoever. I mean that this can still happen four and a half years into a so called "war on terror" speaks for itself for me. Thousands of people have died, and for what? A civil war in Iraq, and absolutely no stop to fundamentalist brutality. Someone needs to get it into the Bush administration's head that the only way the situation in the Middle East is going to improve is to leave them to their own means. Blowing them up is only going to worsen the whole scenario.
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« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2006, 07:47:48 PM »

The Afgan government is getting ready to execute a man for converting from Islam to Christianity.? Coversion is against the law and those guilty are rewarded with death.? How can this be? I thought the Taliban was hiding in South Dakota?? I am glad that change has taken place in Afganistan.

Any thoughts?

God Bless America!

Ahh, not seen you 4 a while, was beginning to forget you, and now, BAM you're back with more bollocks!
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sandman
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« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2006, 07:55:56 PM »

blame bush all you want, but both parties voted FOR the wars.

(now that there's a pro-bush post in this thread, i'm sure the mods will lock it).
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2NaFish
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« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2006, 07:59:13 PM »

blame bush all you want, but both parties voted FOR the wars.

(now that there's a pro-bush post in this thread, i'm sure the mods will lock it).

thats not tecniqually a po-bush post. Its an anti-anti-Bush post; so you're fine.



Gosh and there was me thinking invading a country made everything better. Ah well, lcuky for us the news doesnt concentrate on afghanistan anymore. Osama who?
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SLCPUNK
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« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2006, 01:59:20 AM »



Ahh, not seen you 4 a while, was beginning to forget you, and now, BAM you're back with more bollocks!

I never left. And everything I said would happen did; pretty much always has.


I think this proves just one thing. That despite all of Bush's crap about liberating the Middle East, nothing has changed. Whatsoever. I mean that this can still happen four and a half years into a so called "war on terror" speaks for itself for me. Thousands of people have died, and for what? A civil war in Iraq, and absolutely no stop to fundamentalist brutality. Someone needs to get it into the Bush administration's head that the only way the situation in the Middle East is going to improve is to leave them to their own means. Blowing them up is only going to worsen the whole scenario.


Civil War has been recognized now (except by the White House), it is all over the news the last week as the Sunnis and Shiites slaughter one another. I have been saying it would happen all along.

We have also reached a new ceiling with trillions of dollars of debt. Each person in this country "owes" about 30,000 each.

It's a funny plan we have: Tell the rest of the world to go fuck itself, and ask them to buy our debt at the same time.

Lets hope we are not stupid enough to go into Iran, that may be the final blow to our economy and stretch us way too thin.





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jameslofton29
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« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2006, 02:53:23 AM »

Lets hope we are not stupid enough to go into Iran, that may be the final blow to our economy and stretch us way too thin.
I totally agree. Bush has to "win" the Iraq war and pull our troops out of Afghanistan before setting his sights on Iran. Iran will make Iraq look like a picnic.

Iran will fight back from the moment the first bomb is dropped.
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SLCPUNK
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« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2006, 03:13:04 AM »

Lets hope we are not stupid enough to go into Iran, that may be the final blow to our economy and stretch us way too thin.
I totally agree. Bush has to "win" the Iraq war and pull our troops out of Afghanistan before setting his sights on Iran. Iran will make Iraq look like a picnic.

Iran will fight back from the moment the first bomb is dropped.

The government of Iran has been our enemy for well over 25 years. Surely a good leader would understand that any military engagement with Iran would be downright dumb. Much different then the botched "liberation" in Iraq thus far. For the most part the population of Iran is united in the hatred of their government (and ours.)

There would not be a breakdown anything like Iraq if the government was toppled. They would be much more organized and give us one hell of a fight; I agree it would make Iraq look like a picnic. We don't have the money, or the man power.

What is so funny about Iran is that Halliburton has been doing business with them even though sanctions forbid them too. They also sold Iran key nuclear reactor components while Chenney was CEO.

The White House is making its case against Iran now; LOL they should know since they sold it to them! It is really something else to watch.







« Last Edit: March 22, 2006, 03:18:56 AM by SLCPUNK » Logged
jameslofton29
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« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2006, 03:28:03 AM »

Lets hope we are not stupid enough to go into Iran, that may be the final blow to our economy and stretch us way too thin.
I totally agree. Bush has to "win" the Iraq war and pull our troops out of Afghanistan before setting his sights on Iran. Iran will make Iraq look like a picnic.

Iran will fight back from the moment the first bomb is dropped.

The government of Iran has been our enemy for well over 25 years. Surely a good leader would understand that any military engagement with Iran would be downright dumb. Much different then the botched "liberation" in Iraq thus far. For the most part the population of Iran is united in the hatred of their government (and ours.)

There would not be a breakdown anything like Iraq if the government was toppled. They would be much more organized and give us one hell of a fight; I agree it would make Iraq look like a picnic. We don't have the money, or the man power.

What is so funny about Iran is that Halliburton has been doing business with them even though sanctions forbid them too. They also sold Iran key nuclear reactor components while Chenney was CEO.

The White House is making its case against Iran now; LOL they should know since they sold it to them! It is really something else to watch.
Yeah, its a pretty fucked up situation. I hope he isnt crazy enough to do it. There's a big difference between Iraq and Iran: Iran has a military. Navy included. I've read articles about this. Within minutes of our first "shock and awe" of Iran, they will have sunk our aircraft carriers in the Persian Gulf. They will then set up a "trap" with their sidewinder missiles, and when we send reinforcements to try and help the U.S. mass casualties, they will destroy any and all ships coming into the region. Iran would then have seized control of the entire region.

I think this is a big reason why we haven't invaded Iran yet.
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axl_rose_700
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« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2006, 07:06:18 AM »

Lets hope we are not stupid enough to go into Iran, that may be the final blow to our economy and stretch us way too thin.
I totally agree. Bush has to "win" the Iraq war and pull our troops out of Afghanistan before setting his sights on Iran. Iran will make Iraq look like a picnic.

Iran will fight back from the moment the first bomb is dropped.

The government of Iran has been our enemy for well over 25 years. Surely a good leader would understand that any military engagement with Iran would be downright dumb. Much different then the botched "liberation" in Iraq thus far. For the most part the population of Iran is united in the hatred of their government (and ours.)

There would not be a breakdown anything like Iraq if the government was toppled. They would be much more organized and give us one hell of a fight; I agree it would make Iraq look like a picnic. We don't have the money, or the man power.

What is so funny about Iran is that Halliburton has been doing business with them even though sanctions forbid them too. They also sold Iran key nuclear reactor components while Chenney was CEO.

The White House is making its case against Iran now; LOL they should know since they sold it to them! It is really something else to watch.
Yeah, its a pretty fucked up situation. I hope he isnt crazy enough to do it. There's a big difference between Iraq and Iran: Iran has a military. Navy included. I've read articles about this. Within minutes of our first "shock and awe" of Iran, they will have sunk our aircraft carriers in the Persian Gulf. They will then set up a "trap" with their sidewinder missiles, and when we send reinforcements to try and help the U.S. mass casualties, they will destroy any and all ships coming into the region. Iran would then have seized control of the entire region.

I think this is a big reason why we haven't invaded Iran yet.

They would just autmatically sink the ships?

Ships do have sophisticated defence systems now!
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« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2006, 08:02:42 AM »

The Afgan government is getting ready to execute a man for converting from Islam to Christianity.? Coversion is against the law and those guilty are rewarded with death.? How can this be? I thought the Taliban was hiding in South Dakota?? I am glad that change has taken place in Afganistan.

Any thoughts?

no decision has been made, so let's see how this thing plays out.

the fact that a living Constitution AND freedom of religion are  being discussed/considered is major evidence of the accomplishments (and CHANGE) made in Afghanistan.


Pressure Builds Over Plight of Afghan Christian
Patrick Goodenough
International Editor

(CNSNews.com) - The government of Afghan President Hamid Karzai, accustomed to warm receptions in Western capitals, is coming under growing outside pressure over the trial of a Christian facing a possible death sentence for converting from Islam.

The governments of the United States and three other countries with troops deployed in Afghanistan -- Germany, Italy and Canada -- have voiced concern about the case of Abdul Rahman.

Afghanistan's foreign minister acknowledged Tuesday that the country's embassy in Washington had received "hundreds of messages" on the issue.

Abdullah Abdullah told a joint press briefing with Undersecretary of State Nicholas Burns that the government was not itself involved with the case, "but I hope that through our constitutional process there will be a satisfactory result."

Burns said the U.S. had raised the case in talks with Abdullah. But Burns stopped short of calling for the trial to be abandoned, saying "this is a case that is not under the competence of the United States. It's under the competence of the Afghan authorities."

Separately, State Department spokesman Sean McCormack also declined when pressed to call for the trial to be terminated, calling it "a legal issue for the Afghan government."

In his comments, Burns said he hoped that Afghan courts would uphold the right to freedom of religion, which he said was enshrined in the new constitution.

In the U.S. view, he said, if the constitution is upheld "then, of course, he'll be found to be innocent."

Analysts have pointed out, however, that the constitution's freedom of religion provision could be interpreted as being in conflict with the very next clause, which states that "no law shall contravene the tenets and provisions of the holy religion of Islam." (see earlier story)

Under Islamic law (shari'a), Muslims who convert to another faith and refuse to return to Islam -- usually within a specified period of time -- may be put to death.

Although the issue is a contentious point within Islam, scholars who support it point to an injunction in the Hadith, or sayings of Mohammed, which states: "Any [Muslim] person who has changed his religion, kill him."

Countries where people have been accused or convicted of apostasy include Sudan, Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Mauritania.

Rahman became a Christian years ago while living abroad but was put on trial back in his homeland after family members, involved in a custody dispute, brought up his conversion.

Christian organizations in the U.S. and Britain are urging Christians to contact their lawmakers and to protest to the Afghan government and diplomatic missions.

"You need to let them know that 'democracy' worth the name must include protection of the most basic human right: freedom of conscience and belief," said Prison Fellowship Ministries' Charles Colson.

"Otherwise, places like Afghanistan, whoever is in charge, are nothing more than brutal theocracies and will always remain so."

Family Research Council president Tony Perkins said he had written to President Bush, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and the chairmen of the House and Senate foreign relations committees.

"Americans have not given their lives so that Christians can be executed," he said.

Rep. Tom Lantos (D-Calif ) said he had written a letter to Karzai: "In a country where soldiers from all faiths, including Christianity, are dying in defense of your government, I find it outrageous that Mr. Rahman is being prosecuted and facing the death penalty for converting to Christianity, which he did 16 years ago before your government even existed."

Government and religious figures in Canada, Italy and Germany were also quoted as protesting the case, with Italian Foreign Minister Gianfranco Fini summoning the Afghan ambassador to Rome.

"If this news is confirmed, Italy will move at the highest level, referring the issue to the E.U. in Brussels, to prevent a development that would be incompatible with the defense of human rights and fundamental freedoms," the foreign ministry said in a statement.

A U.K.-based expert on Islam, Dr. Patrick Sookhdeo, said the outpouring of indignation in the West was long overdue.

"What I would like to emphasize is that the death sentence for apostasy is part of mainstream Islam and always has been since the seventh century," he said.

Sookhdeo is head of the Institute for the Study of Islam and Christianity and director of Barnabas Fund, a charity helping Christian minorities in Islamic countries.

He urged political and church leaders to take up the cause of Muslims who embrace another faith.

"In the face of Abdul Rahman's plight, those who have for a long time refused to accept the implications of Islam's apostasy law can surely do so no longer."

Sookhdeo noted that Islam was itself active in seeking converts from other faiths.

"In the twenty first century Islam can no longer continue to be a one-way street, which people may enter but can never leave."
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« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2006, 08:06:30 AM »

and more evidence of positive improvements (i.e. CHANGE) in afghanistan (from everybody's favorite source - aljazeera!)....


16 Taliban killed in Afghan fighting
Wednesday 22 March 2006, 15:53 Makka Time, 12:53 GMT   
 
Afghan government forces have killed 16 Taliban insurgents in an attack near the border with Pakistan.

An Afghan army officer said on Wednesday the government forces attacked the Taliban near the southern border late on Tuesday after getting intelligence reports that the insurgents were preparing attacks.

General Abdul Raziq, the army commander, said: "We started an operation against them last night by surrounding them. The fighting went on for several hours. When we checked the place this morning we found 16 bodies."

Abdul Raziq said only one Afghan soldier was wounded in the battle, 8km east of Spin Boldak.
   
Among the dead were two men who Abdul Raziq identified as Taliban commanders, Mullah Atta Jan and Shish Noorzai, who he said had been organising ambushes and suicide bomb attacks.

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jameslofton29
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« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2006, 08:09:14 AM »


They would just autmatically sink the ships?

Ships do have sophisticated defence systems now!
You obviously haven't seen a sidewinder missile. We have NEVER had to deal with those in combat. In the past, we would have had to fight World War III with the Russians to go up against that capability. Iran has a shitload of those now. That is the reason why four years after Iran is on the 'Axis of Evil' list, we still haven't invaded. Sidewinders are an incredible deterrent.
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« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2006, 08:34:38 AM »

no no no no.. and no. You're free to talk about everyone's right to believe whatever they want, but do not get into another pro-anti-whatever-Bush/Afgan/taliban debate.
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