Guns N' Roses vs U2 in the grand scheme of things.

[Walk]

and walk
who cares about metaphysics? .0001% of the population...

More people, historically, have cared about metaphysics than anything else. Current issues are always more popular at any given moment, but these issues change and the music behind them becomes worthless to a new audience. Music about universal topics and emotions has staying power, even if it's not immediately as popular as the simpler music. It's all about staying power.

diverse as in no lyrics? what does it say? it makes good background music, thats what i think
no, pop music hasnt always been bad...you need a good few chill pills

You need more instrumentals, then. Vocals aren't necessary at all for good music. Pop music has always been less interesting than the alternative. Grunge rock was cool for a while, in the mid 90's there was industrial, melodeath in the late 90's, metalcore in the 00's, and so on. The smaller genre, whatever it is, is almost always better than the pop genre.

if an album is not as good as a previous albums or if a band becomes irrelevant or stops being trendy sales will fall...

Bullshit. Judas Priest sold more Killing Machine than Stained Class, Metallica sold more Metallica than Kill 'Em All, and Megadeth sold more Countdown To Extinction than Rust In Peace. Plenty of other bands have degraded the quality of their music and achieved higher sales. The better an album is, the fewer sales it tends to get. It's true.

the problem is that people now are just hyper critical and condescending in just about everything imo..what a wonderful world

I have hundreds of albums. I won't tolerate listening to mediocre garbage because I have so many alternatives.

black metal has achieved nothing...all talk no action....bono has achieved a trebling of aid to africa...you choose which has made a larger contribution to society...what has black metal done to help people in need?

Black metal has been responsible for dozens of church burnings, murders, and egofascist movements. They aren't pleasant themes, but at least one can't criticize the genre for encouraging inactivity! Given its ratio of popularity:activity, it's probably the most active genre of music. Black metal isn't about helping the needy or contributing to society.

Iron Maiden? you gotta be joking, as much as i like the band they are churning out the same sound and themes...of course when fans are very close to the music they will ultimately think this way anyway

No one in the 80's could have predicted that Maiden would make songs like Paschendale or Journeyman. How about the complete change of sound they did with The X Factor? Their next album will be a concept album, and I expect the best. They're definitely an innovative band, and they still make excellent new music. I can forgive the Brave New World staleness because it was Bruce's comeback.

[Mr. Dick Purple]

I'm fucking tired of  Bono..
You ever noticed how the only times he ever goes on missionaries to Africa to help starving children and stop aids, it's because he has an album coming out? I'm tired of his bullshit escapades for publicity. I just want him to go the fuck away..... him and his stupid 'rock star' sunglasses.

Then you go to Africa and help the starving children! that's meaningless what he does with his money or the money he gain with his band, he's doing something good and at least he is doing something not sitting in front of a computer writting in forum  --> (me included  )

No one in the 80's could have predicted that Maiden would make songs like Paschendale or Journeyman. How about the complete change of sound they did with The X Factor? Their next album will be a concept album, and I expect the best. They're definitely an innovative band, and they still make excellent new music. I can forgive the Brave New World staleness because it was Bruce's comeback.

Well yes no one could've predicted that maiden could be such a influencial band. But wait you found better Virtual IX than BNW? I gotta disagree with you 

[Axls Locomotive]

and walk
who cares about metaphysics? .0001% of the population...

More people, historically, have cared about metaphysics than anything else. Current issues are always more popular at any given moment, but these issues change and the music behind them becomes worthless to a new audience. Music about universal topics and emotions has staying power, even if it's not immediately as popular as the simpler music. It's all about staying power.

diverse as in no lyrics? what does it say? it makes good background music, thats what i think
no, pop music hasnt always been bad...you need a good few chill pills

You need more instrumentals, then. Vocals aren't necessary at all for good music. Pop music has always been less interesting than the alternative. Grunge rock was cool for a while, in the mid 90's there was industrial, melodeath in the late 90's, metalcore in the 00's, and so on. The smaller genre, whatever it is, is almost always better than the pop genre.

if an album is not as good as a previous albums or if a band becomes irrelevant or stops being trendy sales will fall...

Bullshit. Judas Priest sold more Killing Machine than Stained Class, Metallica sold more Metallica than Kill 'Em All, and Megadeth sold more Countdown To Extinction than Rust In Peace. Plenty of other bands have degraded the quality of their music and achieved higher sales. The better an album is, the fewer sales it tends to get. It's true.

the problem is that people now are just hyper critical and condescending in just about everything imo..what a wonderful world

I have hundreds of albums. I won't tolerate listening to mediocre garbage because I have so many alternatives.

black metal has achieved nothing...all talk no action....bono has achieved a trebling of aid to africa...you choose which has made a larger contribution to society...what has black metal done to help people in need?

Black metal has been responsible for dozens of church burnings, murders, and egofascist movements. They aren't pleasant themes, but at least one can't criticize the genre for encouraging inactivity! Given its ratio of popularity:activity, it's probably the most active genre of music. Black metal isn't about helping the needy or contributing to society.

Iron Maiden? you gotta be joking, as much as i like the band they are churning out the same sound and themes...of course when fans are very close to the music they will ultimately think this way anyway

No one in the 80's could have predicted that Maiden would make songs like Paschendale or Journeyman. How about the complete change of sound they did with The X Factor? Their next album will be a concept album, and I expect the best. They're definitely an innovative band, and they still make excellent new music. I can forgive the Brave New World staleness because it was Bruce's comeback.

metaphysics...what pish

the music of the decade defines the decade itself and is associated with events and trends that make the decade unique, you think of dylan, you think of civil and black rights, you think of the beatles, the summer of love, you think of elvis you think about the breakthru of black artists, etc...no lets not do that, lets make every decade full of metaphysical crap and classical and death metal music and thats the way it will stay, everything would be DULL!!!...i think ill pass...

music is subjective, there is no such thing as one song better than another, if it means the same to both persons then there is no difference

as for Judas Priest, well it also proves my point

black metal is mediocre garbage, i have plenty of alternatives

so black metal has had little positive effect on the world, youve just proved my point

iron maiden..to me there isnt much of a difference...i dont really think they are innovative or relevant in this decade

[Mr. Dick Purple]

iron maiden..to me there isnt much of a difference...i dont really think they are innovative or relevant in this decade

Perhaps not in this decade but in the 80's they were very innovative

[art vandalay]

guns n roses made a big impact and SCOM will probably keep playing on the radio for the next 20 years at least. but im sad to say that there are prolly a lot of young people today that havent heard of guns n roses

[Bono]

I don't say this to be rude Walk, but it's hard to take anythig you're saying overly serious becasue it's obvious your completely biased towards your own taste in music. I'm not saying everything you're saying is wrong but most of it is, because you seem unable  to aknowledge that any type of music outside your own personal taste could possibly have any social relevance or impact.  Q has pointed out pretty much everything that needs to be said in terms of counter points so I'll just let you guys carry on but it's very onesided. And to be honest I'd be saying this even if the band in question here wasn't U2.

[Bono]

I'm fucking tired of? Bono..
You ever noticed how the only times he ever goes on missionaries to Africa to help starving children and stop aids, it's because he has an album coming out? I'm tired of his bullshit escapades for publicity. I just want him to go the fuck away..... him and his stupid 'rock star' sunglasses.

I really don't like U2. Their music is entirely unremarkable. They have a few good tunes, but none of it memorable. None of it impactful. It's just fucking there. Watered down bullshit pop music mechanized for the masses.

The thing that I like about Gn'R, is that it's raw. Dirty, loud, real, fucking in your face, intense. Axl screamed and screeched about whatever damn well was on his mind, and sugar coated it for no one. Listening to U2 for me is like being lobotomized. I just get nothing out of it. Every bit of it sounds the same, and just.... flat. Dull. There is just nothing remarkable about this band.

Spacebrain 5000 your opinions on U2 as far as thier music goes are fair enough. That's what you get out of it and that's cool but your opinions on Bono and is humanitarian efforts are flat out wrong. Bono does this kind of work all the time. Wheather the band is on tour, promoteing a new album, writing/recording a new album,  takeing time off or simply doing nothing at all. This has almost become Bono's  second full time job. Bono has been doing this type of stuff since Live Aid in 1985. Can you honestly sit there and tell me that he's doing it for publicity? If he is, it's a pretty long publicity campaigne. And to be honest it's not a very smart one. There are much more effective ways to gain publicity than by becoming an activist for third world poverty. Not to mention ways that don't leave yourself so open to criticizm. Bono has also put himself in a  position now where he can't walk away from this. It's put a huge responsibility on his shoulders to see it through. Bono doesn't do this for publicity. he talks the talk but he's one of the very few celebrities who actually seem to walk the walk on a consitent basis. Also the reason you hear about his work more when a new U2 album comes out is because there's a new U2 album coming out. The band is again in the spotlight so of course there will be more light shed on what Bono's doing outside the band durring those times. Obviously he's going to be asked about it durring the interviewing process of the new album promotion. Oh and I think Bono's sunglasses are actually kinda cool. 

[Walk]

Well yes no one could've predicted that maiden could be such a influencial band. But wait you found better Virtual IX than BNW? I gotta disagree with you 

Virtual XI has The Clansman, while Brave New World was mostly recycling old ideas. Neither album is good, but Virtual XI is a bit better than Brave New World. Dance Of Death blows them all away, obviously.

metaphysics...whatpish

the music of the decade defines the decade itself and is associated with events and trends that make the decade unique, you think of dylan, you think of civil and black rights, you think of the beatles, the summer of love, you think of elvis you think about the breakthru of black artists, etc...no lets not do that, lets make every decade full of metaphysical crap and classical and death metal music and thats the way it will stay, everything would be DULL!!!...i think ill pass...

If you really think about things, the liberal conflict theory that permeates much of rock music is as old as the metaphysics extolled in neoclassical paradigms. It's just less intelligent.

music is subjective, there is no such thing as one song better than another, if it means the same to both persons then there is no difference

Unoriginal songs lose points because they're copying ideas instead of doing new things. Repetitive song structures lose points for being uncreative. Poor use of dissonance takes away points because the context can't break through the misused aesthetics. St. Anger trash cans are an example of this. Objectively speaking, they sound out of place and annoying. Sounds have meaning.

black metal is mediocre garbage, i have plenty of alternatives

so black metal has had little positive effect on the world, youve just proved my point

You're a functionalist, then. You look for music to effect change instead of reveal truth and you don't even understand musical contexts. You're immature philosophically and musically.

iron maiden..to me there isnt much of a difference...i dont really think they are innovative or relevant in this decade

They're still making good albums, so they're relevant. Hell, they're doing a better job this decade than in the 90's!

[ClintroN]

you cant compare U2 n' fuckin' GNR   

why dont you ask us .......snoop dogg vs. the village people

or fuckin' Cradle of Filth vs. Jeffeson Airplane.

[kaasupoltin]

you cant compare U2 n' fuckin' GNR? ?

why dont you ask us .......snoop dogg vs. the village people

or fuckin' Cradle of Filth vs. Jeffeson Airplane.

You got that right

[Axls Locomotive]

metaphysics...whatpish

the music of the decade defines the decade itself and is associated with events and trends that make the decade unique, you think of dylan, you think of civil and black rights, you think of the beatles, the summer of love, you think of elvis you think about the breakthru of black artists, etc...no lets not do that, lets make every decade full of metaphysical crap and classical and death metal music and thats the way it will stay, everything would be DULL!!!...i think ill pass...

If you really think about things, the liberal conflict theory that permeates much of rock music is as old as the metaphysics extolled in neoclassical paradigms. It's just less intelligent.

music is subjective, there is no such thing as one song better than another, if it means the same to both persons then there is no difference

Unoriginal songs lose points because they're copying ideas instead of doing new things. Repetitive song structures lose points for being uncreative. Poor use of dissonance takes away points because the context can't break through the misused aesthetics. St. Anger trash cans are an example of this. Objectively speaking, they sound out of place and annoying. Sounds have meaning.

black metal is mediocre garbage, i have plenty of alternatives

so black metal has had little positive effect on the world, youve just proved my point

You're a functionalist, then. You look for music to effect change instead of reveal truth and you don't even understand musical contexts. You're immature philosophically and musically.

iron maiden..to me there isnt much of a difference...i dont really think they are innovative or relevant in this decade

They're still making good albums, so they're relevant. Hell, they're doing a better job this decade than in the 90's!

you think far too much...the bigger the words, the longer the phrases, the bigger the bullshit

lets face it, whoever invented musical structure should have taken out copyright on his work, everyone has used it...everything is built upon a foundation, einstein needed newton, newton needed galileo etc, just like music needs its predecessors...to think that any musical work is completely new is folly, and your favourite genre black metal wouldnt exist if it wasnt for a dozen other genres of music...in the end the ear is the judge, the emotional content is the judge, the relevance is the judge...to look upon musical structure as superior is admirable but ultimately pointless

yes i look for music to affect change and insight and more...but truth is subjective, truth comes from all angles and there are no absolutes, but insight encourages the truth to be uncovered...truth can be abused ie which truth do you want to use to prove your point?...insight is far more redeeming

musical contexts? as in black metal? no thanks...i'd rather have a positive outlook, not a negative one...

iron maiden are still not relevant in this decade, neither are bands like acdc,nirvana or even guns n roses (until they return, hurry up you bastard )...U2 are relevant as they have affected change

[Walk]

Actually, I can. Jefferson Airplace was once a kvlt band that sold out and changed their name to Starship. Cradle of Filth was a kvlt band (not like Darkthrone, but still kvlt) that sold out and changed their music to mallgothcore. Cradle of Filth is more successful commercially than one would think. Starship completely went against the hippie ideals to make a buck. These bands are very similar.

you think far too much...the bigger the words, the longer the phrases, the bigger the bullshit

lets face it, whoever invented musical structure should have taken out copyright on his work, everyone has used it...everything is built upon a foundation, einstein needed newton, newton needed galileo etc, just like music needs its predecessors...to think that any musical work is completely new is folly...

Actually, most great classical music is in the public domain now. Originality matters a lot, since heavy metal was about 70% new when Sabbath created it. It had obvious blues influence, but it was still metal. Black metal could have sprung from just about any genre. Lots of black metal bands claim punk as their influence for the simple production. Lots of them say Classical music inspired them. Some like folk music. The point is, black metal didn't come out of a linear progression of sound, the way science uses a linear progression of ideas.

Overall, black metal, and any form of music, can spontaneously arise just as easily as it can borrow ideas, and this is shown by the diverse background of the musicians who play it. Obviously, some earlier influences are going to be shown, since everyone listens to music and that influence will come out. Still, what Bathory, Black Sabbath, Overkill, and other bands were doing was almost entirely original.

yes i look for music to affect change and insight and more...but truth is subjective, truth comes from all angles and there are no absolutes, but insight encourages the truth to be uncovered...truth can be abused ie which truth do you want to use to prove your point?...insight is far more redeeming

You're allowing your worldview to affect your view of music. It's no coincidence that great music tends to be either nihilistic or extremely emotional, with little in between.

musical contexts? as in black metal? no thanks...i'd rather have a positive outlook, not a negative one...

Not all black metal is negative and kvlt. You have too many preconceptions. Graveland's song Blood Of Christians On My Sword is positive by his worldview because he's a pagan. He's encouraging activity instead of defeat. Or, how about Nargaroth's infamous song, Black Metal Ist Krieg?  That's not depressing at all; it's awesome. Finally, there's viking metal and other types of folk metal that could be called black metal, but this title is disputed because their sound isn't kvlt enough. Think Finntroll.

iron maiden are still not relevant in this decade, neither are bands like acdc,nirvana or even guns n roses (until they return, hurry up you bastard )...U2 are relevant as they have affected change

Does a band have to change anything to be relevant? I believe a band is relevant if it has released good music. That's all. You're closing yourself to too many good bands because you value politics more than music.

[Axls Locomotive]

black metal springing from any genre? youre delusional...say something enough times and people will start to believe it

yep worldview affected by music...im overjoyed that you dont think the same

i dont close myself to good bands, i always give new bands a listen...if i dont like what i hear, ill listen to something else...i prefer to stay open minded

anyway this topic has diverged from U2 / GNR...

[Bono]

you cant compare U2 n' fuckin' GNR? ?

why dont you ask us .......snoop dogg vs. the village people

or fuckin' Cradle of Filth vs. Jeffeson Airplane.

get a clue. heres' a concept for ya, it's called reading and comprehension!? I'm not comparing the two bands in terms of the style of music they make. I'm asking who will be regarded as the better band when both careers are done. I know as well as anyone that music is subjective to the listener. What's great to someone might be shit to another but we all know that as long as there are bands making music and fans listening to it there will always be the debate as to who's the greatest. It's not a question that can be answered outright because there are to many intangibles to consider but it's definately a? topic that can be debated. If you can't wrap your head around that than that's your problem.? Also when you roll your eyes in an attempt to show what a stupid topic it is you might want to make sure you understand the topic first. otherwise everyone reading your post simply rolls their eyes at you.

[Bono]

Oh and Walk I have to agree with Q. You think too much. You're trying to make this it somthing it's not. We all know that the most technical musicians are more often than not, not the most popular or even most influencial. The thing is though a musician that most people have never heard of cannot possibly be considerd in such a? deate discussing where a band ranks amoung the greats in music history. My neighbour could be the greatest guitar player who ever lived, he could be the most creative musician ever as well but unless he's able to make an impact on people he's not going to be considerd as one of musics greats. He might be great but not one of "the greats"? Your whole speil on Black metal is really pointless because no matter how good any of these bands are as musicians their impact on the overall music world is extremely limited. That's not to take anything away form them it's simply a fact. You also seen to be completely oblivious to the fact that alot of the times less is more. the simpler the song the better it is. Not all music needs to be a technical marvel.? Music comes from a? feeling not from an ability to shred the fastest. Sure a killer guitar solo sometimes packs a punch but honestly more often than not it has absolutely nothing to do with the song.  The comment Q made about bands like Iron Maiden, AC/DC, Guns N' Roses and even Nirvana not being relevant right now is bang on. The only way these bands, especially Iron Maiden and AC/DC are relvant is in terms of retro cool. That's not saying they aren't great bands, they just aren't relevant today. they sell T-shirts not albums.

More people, historically, have cared about metaphysics than anything else. Current issues are always more popular at any given moment, but these issues change and the music behind them becomes worthless to a new audience. Music about universal topics and emotions has staying power, even if it's not immediately as popular as the simpler music. It's all about staying power.

And Walk? the second part of? your quote right there speaking of universal topics screams U2.? Notice how U2 didn't go out and write an aniti Bush album the way Greenday did. U2 is the epitome of staying power. No band has ever had a career spanning this long who held such staying power and that's a fact. If not name one.

[Walk]

You also seen to be completely oblivious to the fact that alot of the times less is more. the simpler the song the better it is. Not all music needs to be a technical marvel.  Music comes from a  feeling not from an ability to shred the fastest.

The irony is incredible here. Black metal is usually very simplistic and relies on its minimalism to evoke an emotional response. It was a step away from aesthetics and in favor of emotional context. A good way to describe it is Romantic. There is a lot of highly technical black metal, but technical skill tends to be celebrated in death metal much more than in black metal. Black metal is a lot like the blues. It's an emotional style of music that doesn't require too much skill, and it doesn't focus on "changing the world". Both styles are practiced by neglected groups; blues was the music of poor blacks, and black metal is the music of neopagan cryptofascists. You guys don't like it because it doesn't promote "activism" (read: TV exposure) or that it's unpopular. It's certainly influential (1000's of n00b bands start from playing simple, kvlt black metal, much how rock stars often start with blues), so the popularity argument is all you have left. Heh.

And Walk  the second part of  your quote right there speaking of universal topics screams U2.  Notice how U2 didn't go out and write an aniti Bush album the way Greenday did. U2 is the epitome of staying power. No band has ever had a career spanning this long who held such staying power and that's a fact. If not name one.

Easy. Manilla Road. They were formed in 1976 as one of America's first true metal bands. I think Riot were formed a bit earlier that same year, but I'm not completely sure. Anyway, Manilla Road have released 13 studio albums from 1980-2005 and one live album. Notable classic albums include Crystal Logic and The Deluge. Their style has been emulated by bands like Slough Feg, Brocas Helm, Killingsworth, and so on. Their latest album, Gates Of Fire, was released in 2005 and is regarded as one of their best. They weren't as popular as most other bands, but they're getting some recognition now in the underground scene. Artistic and musical originality are ultimately more important than popularity.

Enjoy your Britney. 

[Bono]

You also seen to be completely oblivious to the fact that alot of the times less is more. the simpler the song the better it is. Not all music needs to be a technical marvel.? Music comes from a? feeling not from an ability to shred the fastest.

The irony is incredible here. Black metal is usually very simplistic and relies on its minimalism to evoke an emotional response. It was a step away from aesthetics and in favor of emotional context. A good way to describe it is Romantic. There is a lot of highly technical black metal, but technical skill tends to be celebrated in death metal much more than in black metal. Black metal is a lot like the blues. It's an emotional style of music that doesn't require too much skill, and it doesn't focus on "changing the world". Both styles are practiced by neglected groups; blues was the music of poor blacks, and black metal is the music of neopagan cryptofascists. You guys don't like it because it doesn't promote "activism" (read: TV exposure) or that it's unpopular. It's certainly influential (1000's of n00b bands start from playing simple, kvlt black metal, much how rock stars often start with blues), so the popularity argument is all you have left. Heh.

And Walk? the second part of? your quote right there speaking of universal topics screams U2.? Notice how U2 didn't go out and write an aniti Bush album the way Greenday did. U2 is the epitome of staying power. No band has ever had a career spanning this long who held such staying power and that's a fact. If not name one.

Easy. Manilla Road. They were formed in 1976 as one of America's first true metal bands. I think Riot were formed a bit earlier that same year, but I'm not completely sure. Anyway, Manilla Road have released 13 studio albums from 1980-2005 and one live album. Notable classic albums include Crystal Logic and The Deluge. Their style has been emulated by bands like Slough Feg, Brocas Helm, Killingsworth, and so on. Their latest album, Gates Of Fire, was released in 2005 and is regarded as one of their best. They weren't as popular as most other bands, but they're getting some recognition now in the underground scene. Artistic and musical originality are ultimately more important than popularity.

Enjoy your Britney.?

Unbelievable. I guess you're right. In the end a band that nobody has heard of will be regarded as the best ever. I mean let's face it any band who ever acheived any amount of popularity is simply that. A popular band void of artistic and musical originatlity.

Also I would appreciate it if you'd stop telling me and others why we like music. I don't dislike music because of it's lack of popularity and I don't listen to music based on it's popularity either.  You seem to have the attitude  that you are the only one with any inegrity when it comes to musical taste and to be honest it's getting tired. As for the Britney comment at the end of your post well that just proves how much you refuse to aknowledge what Q and myself are talking about. You can't get past the fact that ceratin artists are popular because they are good not because they were pushed. Yes alot of bands nowadays and in the past were pushed and that's what they owe their fame to but bands like U2 were not made to be popular. They're popular because they're damn good, as are Led Zeppelin, The Beatles, Queen, Guns N' Roses and so on. For you to sit there and smuggly say have fun with listening to Britney shows exactly how little respect you have for people with different tastes in music. 

 How about The Cure?  How do you view them? I'm just curious cause I love them and I'd like to see your thoughts on a band that is able to combine a very dark side with a very blissful happy side on the same album. With songs that at times sound like  a theme song for suicide yet on the very next song sound as though all that maters in the world is butterflies and cotton candy.They're in fact masisvely popular and have written some of the best pop songs of all time so I'm just curious to see what your take is on them because as far as I'm concerend all you proven to us is how close minded you are towards music out side your gnere of prefrence.

 
I'm curious to know how old you are Walk and if you honestly think you'll be listening to black metal 15 years down the road and if you'll have the same arrogant attitude towards music and others who deviate from what you think is good music. Let me ask you this: What songs would you liked played at your wedding? What songs would you liked played at your funeral? Your parents funeral or say your children's weddings?? What songs would you like played if we were to make a video montage documenting your life?? Let me guess... a bunch of black metal songs which nobody can identify with.? How'd I do?

[SOLGER]

u2 has no talent..? case closed.? ?

I'm no U2 fan either, but your posts are just fucking worthless.

you know whats worthless...even more worthless than u2..? your mothers blowjobs...

[Skeletor]

u2 has no talent..  case closed.   

I'm no U2 fan either, but your posts are just fucking worthless.

you know whats worthless...even more worthless than u2..? your mothers blowjobs...

Way to prove my point...

[Axls Locomotive]

bono, fascism preaches superiority over others...it shouldnt be any surprise that walk looks down on anything or anyone he doesnt agree with..youll never convince him...he is the perfect advert for being liberal