will "chinese democracy" suffer the fate of "dangerous"?

[Warren]

I think you whole point of view is wrong. It seems like you're just intrested in bashing the "new" band until you get your reunion.

/jarmo

Jarmo,
Telling that isn't fair. I sincerely hope that Axl will succeed with his new band (yes it's a new band, not GN'R anymore, like it or not). If they tour again I will pay myself a ticket and will go to see them (I already did it twice, had to travel by plane to do so).

I will buy Chinese Democracy the first day it is released. No doubt about it.

The problem (perhaps it's only my problem) is that I don't see too many reasons to be optimistic. The gap between the original Guns N'Roses (even without Steven and Izzy) and Axl's new band is so huge that I understand why people didn't attend massively the 2002 shows. I really feel uneasy with this band being called "Guns N'Roses". There's something wrong.
I think people felt that too in 2002. Including Axl.
The old fans who would have been tempted to attend one of these shows because of nostalgia were dissuaded by the new line-up. And most of them didn't care about the new songs.



Concerning a reunion, it is unlikely, but... who knows ? I'm ready to bet that it would be very successful.



PS: I couldn't answer before 'cause I had to work a little bit.

[WARose]

the 2002 tour was just a really bad decision of axl. it was mistake over mistake imo. they played mainly old songs so it was a nostalgia tour. but it was a totally different band without SLASH. the reason why the stones get more people attending is because they are around for 40 years and never stopped releasing albums or touring. and the time they were REALLY succesful was much longer than gnr`s. gnr were only 6 years around and it`s hard to become legendary in such a short timeframe.     

@ jarmo: you said that most of the "old" fans forgot about gnr. and that`s right. here in germany i often meet people who were really into gnr after the illusions, but than nothing happened and they went on. most people are wondering if axl`s still alive.....

but back to the 2002 tour: there was no slash, no promotion, no album and axl didn`t show up for the first concert.....   and the media wasn`t really into praising axl and the new band....

[jameslofton29]

Jarmo made some really good points about a huge piece of the GNR fanbase "moving on" after the UYI era ended. The band quickly unraveled, and the majority of the GNR fanbase were at the age where they either got real jobs, went to college, got married, had kids,etc. It then became easy to "forget" about GNR. Only the extremely hardcore still cared.
 The question is will these people embrace Axl with open arms when he makes a "real comeback" by releasing CD? I believe the answer is yes. Sure, there have been many no shows, a couple riots, a few controversial songs, but Axl or old GNR never did anything so terrible that would permanently scar their relationship with their fanbase. The success of VR proves this point.
  A good example of a star destroying the relationship with most of his fans permanently is (and going back on topic) Michael Jackson. When most people found out he was a child molester in the mid 1990's, it ruined their image of him, and his career has never recovered. His albums always have mediocre sales, and his tours got so bad he even stopped doing that. His career is literally dead, and he has zero hope of recovering it. That is not the case with Axl/GNR. As long as Axl is still with us and the GNR spirit is still alive, there is always a chance for a big comeback.

[nesquick]

WARose, the 2002 was a disaster for many reasons:
- NO SLASH (the most important reason, by far)

then,

- a very poor promotion and a weak Management (zero promotion)
- The Physicall aspect of the band (Axl's physicall degradation, Buckethead and Robin extremely weird styles).
- The goth/robotic/futurist aspect of the band. People hated that.
- The loss of the "Rock n' Roll" aspect of one of the greatest ROCK band in the world, the loss of the Rock n' Roll identity of the band.
- riots
- No new album, nothing to promote.

[the dirt]

the 2002 was a disaster for many reasons:
- riots

Beleive it or not, this drew many to GNR when they were the "most dangerous band in the world" back in the day. But it didn't fly in '02.

[mikegiuliana]

I don't think you understood what I said.

I said some people went for the nostalgia, but the number of people who did that was in no way even close to the number of people who went to see Kiss or Motley Crue for the same nostalgia reason.

I think it's mainly because:

Those bands had lots of promotion for their tours (albums, book, Kiss Unplugged).


Pepe said nobody went to the shows because nobody wanted to hear the new songs. I disagree.


I think it's all about promotion and having a product out. GN'R had some promotion, but no product(s) out. Imagine if that tour had happened in 2004 after the Greatest Hits was released....



/jarmo

I went for nostalgia myself... I had no ideas what to expect but knew the old songs were being played and I wanted to see axl live again..

[Chief]

so what did you think overall? sorry, i don't remember reading reviews from you at the time..
what was your impression of the new lineup and the new songs?

I don't think you understood what I said.

I said some people went for the nostalgia, but the number of people who did that was in no way even close to the number of people who went to see Kiss or Motley Crue for the same nostalgia reason.

I think it's mainly because:

Those bands had lots of promotion for their tours (albums, book, Kiss Unplugged).


Pepe said nobody went to the shows because nobody wanted to hear the new songs. I disagree.


I think it's all about promotion and having a product out. GN'R had some promotion, but no product(s) out. Imagine if that tour had happened in 2004 after the Greatest Hits was released....



/jarmo

I went for nostalgia myself... I had no ideas what to expect but knew the old songs were being played and I wanted to see axl live again..

[mikegiuliana]

i thought the show was really good, they played very well live.. I couldn't have told you who was onstage back then.. It also was very hard to hear the opening riff to jungle and not see slash....  mSG was definetly a great show music wise but not seeing anyone from the gnr I knew growing up was tough.. The entire afd lineup that sparked the interest in millions was gone.. Honestly it was weird.. I went to see axl and hear him sing some gnr tunes that I hadn't heard live in a decade..

It felt like a tribute band at times because we were all singing the songs word for word from back in the day.. Like a bunch of drunks at a bar..Listening to covers is sometimes easy because you don't have to see the missing members sinc ethe singer is the same, but it's much different live hearing the bass or the lead and not being able to put the mental image together

So to sum it up a excellent show, axl was high energy, but it wasn't guns to me..

[Mr Cowbell ?]

Jacko dyed his skin, built up a fantasy world, accused of molesting many children and his crownies all along were just sucking up and telling him his kind of music is revelant when it wasn't and that is what hurt his fan base.

Axl, even in the live bootlegs heard, has adapted to change so there is no way it could fall into the same catergory. 

[The Dog]

i thought the show was really good, they played very well live.. I couldn't have told you who was onstage back then.. It also was very hard to hear the opening riff to jungle and not see slash....  mSG was definetly a great show music wise but not seeing anyone from the gnr I knew growing up was tough.. The entire afd lineup that sparked the interest in millions was gone.. Honestly it was weird.. I went to see axl and hear him sing some gnr tunes that I hadn't heard live in a decade..

It felt like a tribute band at times because we were all singing the songs word for word from back in the day.. Like a bunch of drunks at a bar..Listening to covers is sometimes easy because you don't have to see the missing members sinc ethe singer is the same, but it's much different live hearing the bass or the lead and not being able to put the mental image together

So to sum it up a excellent show, axl was high energy, but it wasn't guns to me..

I think some people just haven't moved on and are still hoping the old guns will get back together or just can't let go of the fact that slash and co. aren't in the band anymore.  I think Axl reallly needs to make it clear that thi is a NEW band, it just seems to me like a lot of people in 02 and even now to some degree are still asking "where is slash". 

[the dirt]

it just seems to me like a lot of people in 02 and even now to some degree are still asking "where is slash".?

This will always be unavoidable.

[Warren]

it just seems to me like a lot of people in 02 and even now to some degree are still asking "where is slash".?

This will always be unavoidable.

As long he keeps the name.

Not an issue that Michael Jackson is facing. To be a solo artist has its good sides.

[the dirt]

Even if he loses the name, Pepe.

MJ is a poor example. He was really a solo artist from the beginning, without contributing band members to speak of.

I don't think it would have been to wise for him to use "The Jackson 5"... it would've made no sense.

[ppbebe]

True. I don't get why people keep bringing up MJ. Was Axl a child star?

 

@ jarmo: you said that most of the "old" fans forgot about gnr. and that`s right. here in germany i often meet people who were really into gnr after the illusions, but than nothing happened and they went on. most people are wondering if axl`s still alive.....

but back to the 2002 tour: there was no slash, no promotion, no album and axl didn`t show up for the first concert.....   and the media wasn`t really into praising axl and the new band....

I bet the majority of those who bought AFD or attended the concerts in the last century don't think about GNR like everyday.  Out of sight out of mind, man.
Not all the then GNR fans were diehard. GNR songs appealed to the general public. Otherwise they wouldn't have made such a huge success.

When the album in which everybody will find at least a few favs comes out, they will win the hearts of music enthusiasts. Massive New fans will come in and some of the old casual fans will come back.

The 2002 tour might have been unfortunate. But it wasn't all that bad. Thanks to the shows I heard the new songs and became a fan.

[mikegiuliana]

i thought the show was really good, they played very well live.. I couldn't have told you who was onstage back then.. It also was very hard to hear the opening riff to jungle and not see slash....? mSG was definetly a great show music wise but not seeing anyone from the gnr I knew growing up was tough.. The entire afd lineup that sparked the interest in millions was gone.. Honestly it was weird.. I went to see axl and hear him sing some gnr tunes that I hadn't heard live in a decade..

It felt like a tribute band at times because we were all singing the songs word for word from back in the day.. Like a bunch of drunks at a bar..Listening to covers is sometimes easy because you don't have to see the missing members sinc ethe singer is the same, but it's much different live hearing the bass or the lead and not being able to put the mental image together

So to sum it up a excellent show, axl was high energy, but it wasn't guns to me..

I think some people just haven't moved on and are still hoping the old guns will get back together or just can't let go of the fact that slash and co. aren't in the band anymore.? I think Axl reallly needs to make it clear that thi is a NEW band, it just seems to me like a lot of people in 02 and even now to some degree are still asking "where is slash".?

well as long as you bill it as gnr some might wonder or even expect someone from the band they knew.. Took me some time to know there was a return of gnr of any kind and who was in the band..

[jimmythegent]

Dangerous was actually a fairly huge album. Invincible is probably the best barometer around if you want to compare

[speed-stone]

i know dangerous was huge, chinese democracy will be huge too, it's bound to.
i thought about using invincible as an example but it didn't fit what i was trying to say.
sure CD will have hits and headline a tour, but will it live up to axl's expectations, like dangerous (one of my fav. albums also) failed to do for michael personally?

[jameslofton29]

i thought about using invincible as an example but it didn't fit what i was trying to say.

Sure it did, but I guess you didn't see it that way. With the recent rumours about GH2 and the rampant speculation that CD is nearly done, you think he would be bold enough and release a 'HiStory' type album and have CD be 1 disc and an Axl's greatest hits be the 2nd disc? I wonder if  using such a tactic would alienate the 'new' bandmembers?
 The plan would make some sense. It would be a safe way to release CD. You would have all the people buying it just for CD, and a bunch of people buying it for the hits. But the negative side of such a move would be CD not standing on its own, and having to use the back catalogue as a crutch.

[Voodoochild]

I'm always open to new stuff... Maybe that's why I like Rhiad so much.

Thats a bold statement.  So you're saying people who dont like Riyadh are closed minded?

No. I said MAYBE people open minded - like me, I guess - could like the song more than closed minded ones.

My musical tastes range from Slayer, Death Angel, Veruca Salt to Barry Manilow, The Cure, and Peter Tosh. I'm very open minded, and so are others here and it still doesn't make Riyadh any less irritating to our ears.

I may be wrong, but I bet once people hear a better version of Rhiad (soundboard or studio) it will change a lot of people's opinion about it.

[highend88]

I'm always open to new stuff... Maybe that's why I like Rhiad so much.

Thats a bold statement.? So you're saying people who dont like Riyadh are closed minded?

No. I said MAYBE people open minded - like me, I guess - could like the song more than closed minded ones.

My musical tastes range from Slayer, Death Angel, Veruca Salt to Barry Manilow, The Cure, and Peter Tosh. I'm very open minded, and so are others here and it still doesn't make Riyadh any less irritating to our ears.

I may be wrong, but I bet once people hear a better version of Rhiad (soundboard or studio) it will change a lot of people's opinion about it.

Rhiad is not so bad... Silkworm is worst!!