will "chinese democracy" suffer the fate of "dangerous"?

[Luigi]

CD is gonna be like a good wine, once you open it ( play it ) it gets better and better. CD should not be judged right away, its gonna take along time to get some momentum. Once that happens all hells gonna break lose.

[Warren]

Comparing Adler's Appetite with Axl's new band, that's what I would call comparing oranges to rotten bananas.

People interested in Guns N'Roses knew in 2002 that the band was playing new songs. People saw them playing Madagascar at the MTV VMA.

And RIR in January 2001 also had some impact out of Brazil...

[jarmo]

People interested in Guns N'Roses knew in 2002 that the band was playing new songs.

Are you saying people in London, UK and New York were more interested in hearing the new songs because GN'R sold out those shows?





/jarmo

[Warren]

People interested in Guns N'Roses knew in 2002 that the band was playing new songs.

Are you saying people in London, UK and New York were more interested in hearing the new songs because GN'R sold out those shows?


/jarmo

I was in London that Monday and I can tell you that the arena in which they played was smaller than the Wembley Stadium. It was a small basket-ball arena. Being sold out there shouldn't be considered as encouraging.
Leeds was a festival. It's always sold out.
NY is a huge city... GN'R in the late '80s would have done 3 or 4 nights in the Madison Square Garden.

What about Los Angeles ? They had scheduled 2 concerts there if I remember well. At the Forum, isn't it ? One was cancelled because tickets were not selling well. And finally the other date was cancelled too, with the rest of the tour.

[Lord Kayoss]

("Dangerous") it did not match "thriller" in terms of sales and popularity, far from it.

Last I checked, nothing anyone has released has come close to matching "Thriller" in terms of sales. ?It sold over 50,000,000 copies and was still far ahead of everything last time I saw the figures.

But at any rate, I see the point you're trying to make. ?And I agree with the common consensus that "Chinese Democracy", no matter how great, will fall way short of everything Appetite achieved. ?The critics will hate on it every chance they get.

But who cares? ?The way I see it, CD is our album. ?It's the pay-off for all the loyal fans who have stuck around like a cult and waited a decade for some new material. ?If it sells poorly that'll suck for Axl but at this point, we the fans deserve this album. ?That's all that really matters to me at this juncture.

[The Dog]

I think CD's success is going to depend largely on the media and reviews.  Unfortunately, CD will NEVER live up to the hype that over ten years in the making has generated.  It will no doubt get comparisons to old GNR material which as any legit Guns fans knows is simply retarded.  There will be tons of "where is slash" comments as well (although I think the new songs we've heard have some pretty good guitar work).  Then theres also the "new direction" Axl is going in.
All that being said, if CD is simply amazing and you really can't NOT like it or give it a bad review and the media embraces Axl, I think it could be pretty huge. 
Right now, Rock is dead....I think its safe to say for years people have been waiting for someone, anyone to come along and ressurect rock to its greatness.  There is definitely a market out there.
Only time will tell I suppose.

[jarmo]

I was in London that Monday and I can tell you that the arena in which they played was smaller than the Wembley Stadium. It was a small basket-ball arena. Being sold out there shouldn't be considered as encouraging.
Leeds was a festival. It's always sold out.

You said people weren't interested in hearing the new songs and therefore didn't buy tickets:

People in the US were not that curious about Axl and his new songs during the 2002 tour...

So basically according to you, the people who saw the band in 1991 went because they wanted to hear the new songs from the UYI albums? I know I went because it was GN'R and the fact that they played new songs was a nice bonus.


I don't think the poor ticket sales in 2002 had anything to do with nobody wanting to hear the new songs. You can't go back on tour without a new album or at least a single getting airplay. Some bands tour when they release a Greatest Hits to promote it and GN'R didn't have that either.

I think you whole point of view is wrong. It seems like you're just intrested in bashing the "new" band until you get your reunion.



/jarmo

[The Dog]

I was in London that Monday and I can tell you that the arena in which they played was smaller than the Wembley Stadium. It was a small basket-ball arena. Being sold out there shouldn't be considered as encouraging.
Leeds was a festival. It's always sold out.

You said people weren't interested in hearing the new songs and therefore didn't buy tickets:

People in the US were not that curious about Axl and his new songs during the 2002 tour...

So basically according to you, the people who saw the band in 1991 went because they wanted to hear the new songs from the UYI albums? I know I went because it was GN'R and the fact that they played new songs was a nice bonus.


I don't think the poor ticket sales in 2002 had anything to do with nobody wanting to hear the new songs. You can't go back on tour without a new album or at least a single getting airplay. Some bands tour when they release a Greatest Hits to promote it and GN'R didn't have that either.

I think you whole point of view is wrong. It seems like you're just intrested in bashing the "new" band until you get your reunion.



/jarmo

While I'm not sure why the 2002 sales were below expectations,  I don't think your point about needing a new CD/promotion to have a successful tour is totally true.  I think the stones, DMB, KISS, U2 etc... will ALWAYS have sold out shows simply b/c they have HUGE followings.  I don't think people go to Stones shows to hear their latest album, but simply b/c its the rolling stones.  yeah, they usually are promoting some kind of album, but I bet album sales for the last few records for most of the bands I mentioned are much lower then previous ones (U2 maybe the exception) - yet they still sell out and have VERY successful tours.

I would guess it was b/c of the reputation Axl has showing up late, the riots etc....the 2002 US tour didn't get off to a great start either.  THANK GOD there were no probs at the MSG show...last concert by GNR to date baby!   so glad I was there.  UNREAL show!

[Scabbie]

From what I've heard of the new songs, I don't think it will suffer the fate of Dangerous.

But the longer Axl leaves it the more likely even the more loyal fans will lose interest.

[jarmo]

While I'm not sure why the 2002 sales were below expectations,? I don't think your point about needing a new CD/promotion to have a successful tour is totally true.? I think the stones, DMB, KISS, U2 etc... will ALWAYS have sold out shows simply b/c they have HUGE followings.? I don't think people go to Stones shows to hear their latest album, but simply b/c its the rolling stones.? yeah, they usually are promoting some kind of album, but I bet album sales for the last few records for most of the bands I mentioned are much lower then previous ones (U2 maybe the exception) - yet they still sell out and have VERY successful tours.

Some of those bands have been around longer than GN'R and some have been building large fan bases by releasing material and touring for years.


GN'R disappeared from the scene in 1993. Then in 2002 they're back and tour without any major promotion (album, compilation album etc).

U2 and The Stones have been releasing album and touring for a while.

Then you have bands like Pearl Jam who tour and release albums without the commercial success, but they still sell tickets because they have a very loyal fan base.

GN'R doesn't have a (big) loyal fan base because they haven't released anything in years. Most of the fans "grew up" and forgot about GN'R.

It's easier to forget a band that doesn't release albums or tours, than one that actually does.....



/jarmo

[The Dog]

Some of those bands have been around longer than GN'R and some have been building large fan bases by releasing material and touring for years.


GN'R disappeared from the scene in 1993. Then in 2002 they're back and tour without any major promotion (album, compilation album etc).

U2 and The Stones have been releasing album and touring for a while.

Then you have bands like Pearl Jam who tour and release albums without the commercial success, but they still sell tickets because they have a very loyal fan base.

GN'R doesn't have a (big) loyal fan base because they haven't released anything in years. Most of the fans "grew up" and forgot about GN'R.

It's easier to forget a band that doesn't release albums or tours, than one that actually does.....



/jarmo

I don't think people forgot about GNR, how many times do you see them on a "best of" list or "greatest of all time" list...how many times do you hear jungle when you go to a sporting event?  How many times since 92 have we seen GNR parodied or Axl/Slash in a caricature in some way?  They are part of pop culture and always will be. Axl and Slash are larger then life in appearance and their stories are legendary, not to mention their songs.  I agree about them not being around as long as some of the other bands I mentioned, but I doubt KISS and the stones, even pearl jam are getting NEW fans and interest from their material over the last decade....its all from the older stuff.  After the VMAs there was a HUGE buzz about the band.  I think Axl/GNR's rep is just really tarnished and its going to take a lot to fix it.  I do agree that if CD is released and a tour happens it will do MUCH better then 2002 b/c of a new album to support it, but I don't think thats what really hurt 2002.

[AxlsMainMan]

The US music scene is really strange.? 20 years ago, rock was king.? Now, you got the young kids buying all that Pop Emo music, older people getting into Country, and the urban kids grabbing the R&B, rap stuff.? I really don't think the US is ready for a rock record to go through the roof stateside.? That and the fact that this isn't the original band, which means alot.? I think CD sale will be comparable the VR sales in the US.? If GNR is lucky.

Very good point. Kids and teenagers are the biggest music purchasing demographic these days, and their into so many different types of weird ass music these days, it really is gunna be hard for Gn'R to come along and drop a rock album, no matter how stellar the material on it may be, and have it go through the roof, and rise lightyears abover their competition. Rock n' Roll is still a very active genre is the US, but you are absolutely right, it is becoming washed away by the tide of country, emo, etc..

I cerrtainly hope CD rises far beyond VR's sales when it is released, or that would just be one of the hugest kicks in the nuts Axl could get

I think opening week, 500,000 copies minumum, 750,000 tops in the states which is a pretty strong debut in the US, and 900,000 copies in it's first week overseas..But I think it will single-handedly come down to Axl's determination and faith in the album, because that is largely what will fuel the promotion of the album, and hopefully seal the deal on a World Tour

Last I checked, nothing anyone has released has come close to matching "Thriller" in terms of sales. ?It sold over 50,000,000 copies and was still far ahead of everything last time I saw the figures.

Oasis has sold around the same amount of albums in the UK...


Or so Ive read in the Oasis thread...

But at any rate, I see the point you're trying to make. ?And I agree with the common consensus that "Chinese Democracy", no matter how great, will fall way short of everything Appetite achieved. ?The critics will hate on it every chance they get.

Nah, I prefer to think it will rise above my expections and that the critics will at least give it a unbiased listen, that way when they do, I wont be dissapointed

But who cares? ?The way I see it, CD is our album. ?It's the pay-off for all the loyal fans who have stuck around like a cult and waited a decade for some new material. ?If it sells poorly that'll suck for Axl but at this point, we the fans deserve this album. ?That's all that really matters to me at this juncture

That's what it all comes down to for me at least in the end...

I know even if Chinese Democracy is an album full of filler, I will still find many things to cherish annd appreciate on the record, even if I am the only one in the world with a copy. In my opinion, this is "my" album, "our" album, not the media or publics. They haven't waited years and years for Axl to return, they've only been commentating and hyping for the sake of something to write about...so you better believe us fans deserve this more than some NME hack. If it sells worth shit, ultimately I think Axl wont really care in all honesty, he'll finally have this chapter in his life complete, and he'll know he loves the album and his fans sure as hell do too..I mean it's gunna be damn near impossible to outsell any of Gn'R's previous albums except say Live Era, and TSI?

[jarmo]

I don't think people forgot about GNR, how many times do you see them on a "best of" list or "greatest of all time" list...how many times do you hear jungle when you go to a sporting event?? How many times since 92 have we seen GNR parodied or Axl/Slash in a caricature in some way?? They are part of pop culture and always will be. Axl and Slash are larger then life in appearance and their stories are legendary, not to mention their songs.? I agree about them not being around as long as some of the other bands I mentioned, but I doubt KISS and the stones, even pearl jam are getting NEW fans and interest from their material over the last decade....its all from the older stuff.?

A band like Pearl Jam can keep their old fans and get new ones because they keep touring and releasing albums. GN'R fans "only" have the old albums to listen to. As I mentioned, I think it's harder to keep your old fans interested when you don't really release anything for years.

I know some fans went to the 2002 shows because they remember GN'R from the past, but I don't think it was in the same way people go see Kiss or Rolling Stones.... That's my opinion...




/jarmo

[the dirt]

I agree about them not being around as long as some of the other bands I mentioned, but I doubt KISS and the stones, even pearl jam are getting NEW fans and interest from their material over the last decade....its all from the older stuff.? After the VMAs there was a HUGE buzz about the band.? I think Axl/GNR's rep is just really tarnished and its going to take a lot to fix it.

You see, this is why Axl has put himself in a very difficult situation. Axl seems bent on changing GNR around a lot, and trying to create something contemporary. It seems he wants to distance himself from the past, which in turn will withought a doubt alienate fans of the old who remember why they liked GNR in the first place- the music they put out.

[the dirt]

I know some fans went to the 2002 shows because they remember GN'R from the past, but I don't think it was in the same way people go see Kiss or Rolling Stones.... That's my opinion...




/jarmo

Then what do you think the majority of fans went for, since you feel only "some" went because they remember GNR from the past? ( and saw them play 92% of the old material, by the way)

[jimmythegent]

You seem to think that if the AFD- or UYI-era GN'R were still together, they'd still be huge and selling out stadiums even without releasing a new album. I don't agree. It worked in 1991, but that was a different time.




/jarmo

 

errr.. yeah, I'd be willing to bet the house on that as a matter of fact - Original GNR back playing stadiums? (even without a new album) - it would be huuuuge!

and Adlers Appetite is not a good comparison
he was never as well known,talented or recongnisable to GNR as Axl or Slash - c'mon 

[the dirt]

Gent, I don't think Jarmo meant if the old reunited, but if they remained  together all this time.

And if they had, I'd like to beleive that they could sell out stadiums in that scenario.

[jarmo]

Then what do you think the majority of fans went for, since you feel only "some" went because they remember GNR from the past? ( and saw them play 92% of the old material, by the way)

What I meant was, there weren't the same number of ?fans who went for the nostalgia as you might see at a Kiss concert. Whatever the reason is for that, I don't know for sure. I think it's partly because people have moved on as I've stated in earlier posts.

errr.. yeah, I'd be willing to bet the house on that as a matter of fact - Original GNR back playing stadiums? (even without a new album) - it would be huuuuge!

If they had stuck together and not released any albums but toured in 2002 with the AFD set, you think that would've happened? I'm not talking about a reunion tour.

I'm not sure. I think the chances would've been much bigger if that had happened after a succesfull Greatest Hits release.

Look at Motley Crue... They didn't just go on tour. They had a Greatest Hits with new songs plus a succesfull book.....



/jarmo

[The Dog]

What I meant was, there weren't the same number of  fans who went for the nostalgia as you might see at a Kiss concert. Whatever the reason is for that, I don't know for sure. I think it's partly because people have moved on as I've stated in earlier posts.

hmm, i totally disagree, i think it was all about the nostalgia.  without a new album what else would there be to go for?!!!?!??  Most people don't even know about the new songs, but still love their AFD and UYI's.  I think people got pumped about the chance to see Axl again, to hear their favorite songs live again.

[jarmo]

I don't think you understood what I said.

I said some people went for the nostalgia, but the number of people who did that was in no way even close to the number of people who went to see Kiss or Motley Crue for the same nostalgia reason.

I think it's mainly because:

Those bands had lots of promotion for their tours (albums, book, Kiss Unplugged).


Pepe said nobody went to the shows because nobody wanted to hear the new songs. I disagree.


I think it's all about promotion and having a product out. GN'R had some promotion, but no product(s) out. Imagine if that tour had happened in 2004 after the Greatest Hits was released....



/jarmo