Life since 9/11/01

[SLCPUNK]

As for the flight 93 attendant, the narrator says, "She doesn't sound like someone who just saw some people murdered." To that I say she was trained to remain calm in any situation. That was her job.

I have to disagree.

An attendant is supposed to stay calm under normal flying circumstances (including preparing for a crash.) But to witness a brutal murder(s), it would be hard for anybody to remain that stoic, much less calm.

no one knows how anyone would react to anything. if you had 1,000 people, you'd get 1,000 different reactions.

i think preparing for a crash (i.e. preparing to die) is more stressful than watching someone else die.

but who really knows?

Everybody is different........who knows.

I saw somebody shot with a gun once (I was about 17 years old.) And my heart about jumped out of my chest.

Shock can also overtake your body, shutting it down. Keeping you in check, not allowing you to panic I suppose.

Personally......I'd shit.

[Surfrider]

Here is my question: If the government knew about this, including Bush, then why did Bush look so stunned when it happened?  Why did he freeze like he didn't know what to do?

Can people really have it both ways?

[SLCPUNK]

Here is my question: If the government knew about this, including Bush, then why did Bush look so stunned when it happened?  Why did he freeze like he didn't know what to do?

Can people really have it both ways?

The people who believe this, don't believe Bush was in the know.

Personally he seems to always have that look on his face. I like to call it the "Utah-Prozoc-Delayed-Gaze".

[Surfrider]

Here is my question: If the government knew about this, including Bush, then why did Bush look so stunned when it happened?? Why did he freeze like he didn't know what to do?

Can people really have it both ways?

The people who believe this, don't believe Bush was in the know.

Personally he seems to always have that look on his face. I like to call it the "Utah-Prozoc-Delayed-Gaze".

  Just thought I would shoot out the question.

[journey]

So, SLC, do you really believe there weren't any people on those flights, or are you just entertaining the thought?

[the dirt]

I saw somebody shot with a gun once (I was about 17 years old.) And my heart about jumped out of my chest.

Care to share this story?

[SLCPUNK]

So, SLC, do you really believe there weren't any people on those flights, or are you just entertaining the thought?

I don't know.

Care to share this story?

I was hitchhiking back down to Tampa from central Florida. I was young, maybe 16, but I think 17.

I got dropped off at a fork in the intersate and proceeded to try and thumb a ride the remainder of the way. I was walking over an interstate overpass. (I found out later that this section of town had some racial conflict that created a riot. )

I saw what I thought was a man fall of a bike. I saw a car coming up behind him and he was not getting up. I saw the blood and thought I must run down and pull him out of the road before he was run over. I began to run down the grassy slope (I don't know what I was thinking, there was no way I could have made it in time) when that car caught up to the man. At this point the man was about to get up, when the driver of the car got out and shot the man twice. Two loud pops, almost like firecrackers. It did not register at first, but I realized that I had heard a loud pop before the man crashed his bike. I realized then, that this man had been shot off his bike and the guy was finishing the job. I turned around and ran like bloody hell back up that bank and onto the interstate. Jogging down the side of it for a good mile, before I began to walk and stick my thumb out again.

I also had a man put a gun in my face after I caught him in my parents house. When he pointed that thing at me I threw up the 2x4 I had (to belt him with) and screamed like a little girl, covering my face. He didn't shoot and drove away. Scared the shit out of me. That is another story all together. Much better then the other one (good now, not then, lol.)

[Layne Staley's Sunglasses]

Scary stuff man!

[the dirt]

Woah. I had close encounters with people pulling guns on me like 4 times. Scary stuff indeed.

[leesixxrose]

I dont think we will ever know... but at least people still talk about it and question it.... at least some people are still awake in the world and dont belive everything they see on TV.

[heinous]

1) This statement has nothing to do with what I said. I said that we have put people in power there as it suits our needs. Which we have and still do.

On the contrary, it has a lot to do with things you've said over and over again.? You essentially believe anti-American sentiment in the middle east is a monster America alone has created.? That it is the U.S. who has put tyrants and thugs into power.

Rather than making an effort to specify which nations this would apply to (and there are some), you use the above as a general statement that applies across the board.? You also don't (or won't) recognize the fact that America has had dealings with tyrants and thugs - often having to choose the proverbial lesser of two evils - because tyrants and thugs make up the great bulk of what you have to deal with in the region.? America didn't create them, they were already there.? Of course, in a perfect world, tyrants and thugs would not be the ones in power there, and the rest of the world wouldn't need the oil they sit on.? Unfortunately that's not reality.?

What is reality is you have huge populations that are angry and discontent because they live under oppressive regimes.? Their anger are not so much a result of our freedoms as a lack of their own.? And religious extremists exploit this raw anger to stir them up against the West, using Israel and America as the chief scapegoats.
?
Rather than contradicting myself, as you claim, I was pointing out the crucial reason why the United States gives aid to Israel.? It is for defensive, rather than offensive, purposes.? Like so many that buy into the "it's all America's fault" mentality, you are quicker to condemn Israel's military actions (virtually always in self-defense) than the terrorist actions of their enemies who completely surround them.? You've used that "bombs and bullets" line in regard to Israel so many times, you should probably be paying somebody royalties.? Yet you don't say a thing about the aid America has given to the opposition.? I'm afraid you're the type that gets more angry when a few Palestinians are killed accidentally by an Israeli missile aimed at specific targets than you are by two-dozen Israelis killed intentionally by a Palestinian suicide-bomber.

Finally, you are so busy labeling U.S. foreign policy an utter failure, as well as wax philosophical about how bombing people won't bring peace, that you fail to realize you don't have any realistic alternatives to the "big picture problem" - Islamo-faschist terrorism.? Or, rather, the alternatives you might suggest (fruitless self-flaggellation and the cutting off of Israel, followed by never ending political rhetoric and ineffective economic sanctions, while both terrorist organizations and terrorist-states grow more powerful) will have results that make the war in Iraq and Afghanistan look like a picnic.

People care about Africa, except it does not sit on one of the largest untapped reserves of oil on the planet. If it did, we would be claiming "Liberate Darfur." You are right though: nobody cares, there is no money to be made.

Yes, of course.? Rather than the nations of the world (i.e. the U.N.) being collectively guilty of allowing Yugoslavia, Rwanda, Darfur, etc. to happen, America is solely to blame.

Many of the reasons the U.S. invaded Iraq might be self-serving, but it is facing the problems of the middle east head-on.? That's more than could be said for most other countries, who have the luxury of living in a world of denial simply because they are farther down on the terrorist hit-list than the few nations on the front lines of the war.

[SLCPUNK]

On the contrary, it has a lot to do with things you've said over and over again.  You essentially believe anti-American sentiment in the middle east is a monster America alone has created.  That it is the U.S. who has put tyrants and thugs into power.

I did not say we "created it."

I said we put people in power as they suit our needs and then take them out as they don't.

This is now the third time I have explained this to you.

Rather than making an effort to specify which nations this would apply to (and there are some), you use the above as a general statement that applies across the board.   

Why should I make an effort? I am to hold your hand throughout this ordeal? If I created a timeline for you, you would only ignore it anyway.

Pick up a history book and read it.

What is reality is you have huge populations that are angry and discontent because they live under oppressive regimes.  Their anger are not so much a result of our freedoms as a lack of their own.  And religious extremists exploit this raw anger to stir them up against the West, using Israel and America as the chief scapegoats.

Yes. Looking back I seem to recall the USA throwing out an elected leader and installing a dictator..... Care to guess who?

 

Rather than contradicting myself, as you claim, I was pointing out the crucial reason why the United States gives aid to Israel.  It is for defensive, rather than offensive, purposes.

Sorry pal, both sides are guilty of "offensive"


 

Like so many that buy into the "it's all America's fault" mentality, you are quicker to condemn Israel's military actions (virtually always in self-defense) than the terrorist actions of their enemies who completely surround them. 

Any attempt as a mind reader will probably be a short career.......

I don't say it is "America's fault", but I do think we contradict ourselves as far as international policy is concerned (see my "overthrowing a democratically elected leader" post above.) Once again: As we see fit. Once the country is no longer a tool of the USA (Like the UN was for years) it no longer holds any value and must be let go. This administration of liars and crooks did the same thing when the UN no longer suited it's needs.

Finally, you are so busy labeling U.S. foreign policy an utter failure, as well as wax philosophical about how bombing people won't bring peace, that you fail to realize you don't have any realistic alternatives to the "big picture problem" - Islamo-faschist terrorism.

You think Iraq is a success? Even the right wing wants out of this disaster now. Powell is pointing the finger at Chenney. Newt is saying it's time to pull out. Yet here you sit all angry at the messenger, who has given plenty of solutions in the past.

Or, rather, the alternatives you might suggest (fruitless self-flaggellation and the cutting off of Israel, followed by never ending political rhetoric and ineffective economic sanctions, while both terrorist organizations and terrorist-states grow more powerful) will have results that make the war in Iraq and Afghanistan look like a picnic.

It's amazing how you see into the future like you do. I deal in real time, and what I see in real time is NOT working.

Yes, of course.  Rather than the nations of the world (i.e. the U.N.) being collectively guilty of allowing Yugoslavia, Rwanda, Darfur, etc. to happen, America is solely to blame.

Nope.

I never said we were "to blame".

I did imply that the hypocrisy was rather amazing. Which, of course, it is.

Many of the reasons the U.S. invaded Iraq might be self-serving, but it is facing the problems of the middle east head-on.  That's more than could be said for most other countries, who have the luxury of living in a world of denial simply because they are farther down on the terrorist hit-list than the few nations on the front lines of the war.

It is beyond self serving.

If you think this is the way to deal with the middle east, with a poorly planned war and bad intelligence, then I think that speaks volumes about you.

Have a great day.

[DCGNR2006]

It is beyond self serving.

If you think this is the way to deal with the middle east, with a poorly planned war and bad intelligence, then I think that speaks volumes about you.

Have a great day.

[/u]




In response to the above, I will say that, the other way of dealing with the Middle East was not working.  It's one thing to dis-like American policy, but when you start bombing our embassies, exploding boats into our ships, and leaving truck bombs at the WTC, I would say that the prior ways of " dealing " ( Or avoiding, as I would call it) with the Middle East needed to be changed.

Everyone over there needed to see that aside from Hamburgers, Slasher Flicks, and Starbucks, America was still quite capable of tremendous military might. And don't think for one second, that the site of our Troops marching on Baghdad did'nt remind these people of just that.

Greatest quote ever came from Dennis Miller -  " George Bush reminded people that while America may have a really long fuse, attached to end of that fuse is a Big Ass Fucking Bomb "

[D]

This documentary makes me believe the Govt is more crooked than I orginally thought but I dont believe the Govt caused 9/11.

The documentary maker couldve had a HR if not for the ignorant "There wasnt anyone on the planes theory"

What about the movie coming out Flight 93? I think that is proof there were people on the planes.


Now that still doesnt mean this couldnt have happened.

If the Govt is gonna sacrifice thousands in the Twin Towers, why wouldnt they sacrifice people in airplanes?


 All I know is a country like Brazil *no disrespect to any Brazillians on this forum* can have Zero dependability on oil, why cant ?a country as advanced as the US be also?

I know its cause the Govt sold out to corporations and big businesses and the rich corporations really run the country but still, our problems would ?be solved with and a president would be a hero if alternate fuel supplies were developed.

Our country would thrive.

The enviroment would thrive,the economy.

I blame and hold all Americans responsible though.

It is us that keeps the shitty career politican in office. Why dont Americans ban together and kick all these career pocketlining, bribe taking politicans out of office?

I think Republicans and Democrats are destroying this country and we need a revolution. Too bad everyone is brainwashed.

[SLCPUNK]

Everyone over there needed to see that aside from Hamburgers, Slasher Flicks, and Starbucks, America was still quite capable of tremendous military might. And don't think for one second, that the site of our Troops marching on Baghdad did'nt remind these people of just that.

That is all fine and dandy.

But it did not accomplish one thing against the group that attacked this country here and abroad.

Looks like our "military might" isn't quite what you thought it was either. Assuming you have been reading the papers over the last few months.

[DCGNR2006]

Everyone over there needed to see that aside from Hamburgers, Slasher Flicks, and Starbucks, America was still quite capable of tremendous military might. And don't think for one second, that the site of our Troops marching on Baghdad did'nt remind these people of just that.

That is all fine and dandy.

But it did not accomplish one thing against the group that attacked this country here and abroad.

Looks like our "military might" isn't quite what you thought it was either. Assuming you have been reading the papers over the last few months.

Our Millitary might is exactly what I thought it was pal. It destroyed an entire army that was in it's path and toppled the Iraqi regime in a matter of weeks.
The problems that are occuring now, have nothing to do with military might. These are not head on battles that our guys are losing. This is suicide bombs, road mines, car explosions etc. It is weak, and cowardice. To assume that the troops are failing is a disgrace. The problems you see now have to do with the post-war planning, the politicians in charge. Perhaps you should use your brain and look beyond the newspapers and CNN updates, to draw your own conclusions.

[Mal Brossard]

Our Millitary might is exactly what I thought it was pal. It destroyed an entire army that was in it's path and toppled the Iraqi regime in a matter of weeks.

Yeah, attacking and toppling a military and regime that has next to nothing for weapons is a huge accomplishment.

The problems that are occuring now, have nothing to do with military might. These are not head on battles that our guys are losing. This is suicide bombs, road mines, car explosions etc. It is weak, and cowardice.

So you're telling me that if someone took away your weaponry, invaded the US, defeated the US military, knocked the current White House out of power, and said they were doing it for your good that you'd just say "Well ok, sure, go right ahead" rather than find any possible way you could to fight back?  I'd say rolling over and taking it is more cowardly than fighting back with whatever means you may have.  What's weaker is going on an unprovoked attack because we thought they may have been a threat.

To assume that the troops are failing is a disgrace. The problems you see now have to do with the post-war planning, the politicians in charge.

I think this is something everyone would agree on.  There's not much the troops can do about being sent in with no plan other than to have not joined the military in the first place.

Perhaps you should use your brain and look beyond the newspapers and CNN updates, to draw your own conclusions.

Well if CNN, Fox News, et. al weren't afraid to criticise the government when they deserve it...

[DCGNR2006]

Make no mistake. Our military is the finest on the face of the Earth. Denouncing the opposing the armies we've faced does not change that. You can line up France, Germany and Russia and the American Military would wipe the floor with them. There's a reason all of these European countries bitched and moaned about Iraq, but did nothing to stop us..........

You are justifying suicide attacks on our Military? You cannot be serious. The Iraqi army during the invasion doing these bullshit tactics would be one thing
BECAUSE WE WERE ATTACKING THEM.  A group of fundamentalists who believe that violence and blowing up civilians will lead them to Allah, doing the same thing WHILE WE ARE NOT ATTACKING THEM, is bullshit. You justify that? What sick planet are you on? That's the same mentality that chooses to say that 9/11 was justified as well.

Wake up and smell the shit you're serving. I respectfully disagree with your view on this -

[SLCPUNK]

Make no mistake. Our military is the finest on the face of the Earth. Denouncing the opposing the armies we've faced does not change that. You can line up France, Germany and Russia and the American Military would wipe the floor with them. There's a reason all of these European countries bitched and moaned about Iraq, but did nothing to stop us..........

That is fantastic, great job.

I don't think anybody in this thread was doubting our military strength, were they?

The other countries were right BTW. There was no reason to invade. There were no WMD.

I actually caught a great special on CNN last night. It was an hour long and went into great detail of how we based all our "intelligence" on one man who was known for lying (AKA "Curveball"). It also showed how Bush ignored that fact and pressed for war.

You are justifying suicide attacks on our Military? You cannot be serious. The Iraqi army during the invasion doing these bullshit tactics would be one thing
BECAUSE WE WERE ATTACKING THEM.  A group of fundamentalists who believe that violence and blowing up civilians will lead them to Allah, doing the same thing WHILE WE ARE NOT ATTACKING THEM, is bullshit. You justify that? What sick planet are you on? That's the same mentality that chooses to say that 9/11 was justified as well.

Wake up and smell the shit you're serving. I respectfully disagree with your view on this -

You don't respectfully disagree with his views because you are talking about something else altogether here.

[DCGNR2006]

Everyone over there needed to see that aside from Hamburgers, Slasher Flicks, and Starbucks, America was still quite capable of tremendous military might. And don't think for one second, that the site of our Troops marching on Baghdad did'nt remind these people of just that.

That is all fine and dandy.

But it did not accomplish one thing against the group that attacked this country here and abroad.

Looks like our "military might" isn't quite what you thought it was either. Assuming you have been reading the papers over the last few months.

SPlunk would you mind telling me what the hell you are babbling about? No one here questioned our military strength? You did, read above. Our military might isnt' quite what I thought it was? What is this quote above here say? Is that not you?


Who are you to jump in and tell me that I don't respectfully disagree with his views? He was saying the suicide bombings going on there were justified, because their country was attacked. I clearly gave my views on how they are not justified.  That would be called " Respectfully Dis-Agreeing "

And for the record, the other countries did not deny the WMD existed there. If they did, prove me wrong. But, the way I remember it, they just wanted to contain the madman with sanctions. In other words, WMD did not pose a threat to THEM, so why support the invasion -

I suggest you read posts before you comment on them, as well.    Later