Life since 9/11/01

[The Dog]

 The people responsible for the attacks are dead. So we're left with speculations and conspiracies.

The movie addressed this also.

Because about 1/2 of the "hijackers" listed are alive and well living in various cities. They have even given interviews!

This was a big part of the movie I really wanted to know more about.....to me this would be a smoking gun pointing to a conspiracy of some sorts - how legit are the sources in question though?  I mean, for every "loose change" there are 5 sites shooting down all the theories and really making them seem VERY silly and foolish.  At first I got caught up in all of the theories, but after doing some research of my own and reading a lot of competent, well researched essays/documents MOST of the Loose Change type theories are shot down quick.  If you're intersted, just go to Wikipeida and type in loose change or 911 conspiracy theory, stuff like that and you should find links to sites debunking many things.

My point is, if in fact the people in question were alive, wouldnt' the major news networks pick up on this, especially if there is a "liberal bias" and if the media hates the Bush Admin so much.....

I have read both, and find too many unanswered questions on the Loose Change theory. Also, this administration has done nothing but lie since day one. So it pokes holes in their credibility from the start. People are more prone to listen to alternative scenarios.

I read the popular mechanics theory that was supposed to beat down this theory. But then I found out it was written by cousin of the Chief of homeland security. Then I also read another article written by a conservative BYU professor that essential beat down the popular mechanics article.

I would not get this type of movie confused with "liberal bias". Simply because so many people on both sides believe that the government did this. The theory is that this is not a right or left agenda either.

Many of the claims made are simply laws of physics, that anybody could refute if they were false.


There are other glaringly obvious lies like the one about finding a terrorists passport in the rubble of 9-11. Is one to really believe that a plane that vaporized into thin air, leaving behind no black box allowed a paper passport to simply float to the ground?

I agree, there is a lot that doesn't add up, but there is also a lot of Loose Change that is pretty far fetched.  The way they connect the dots in some cases must be done with not grains of salt, but pounds.    Like I said before, its a well done movie in the sense it DEFINITELY gets you thinking, but once you peel back some of its layers, you see its not that well researched, and they convienently leave out a lot of information to make their conclusions look sound.

That bit about the passport is definitely crap, but where is it sourced that an actual passport was found?  I just think they need to reference and source their claims better. 

SLC - you ever see Wag The Dog?  Great movie.  Really fucks with your head if you start thinking about it....

[The Dog]

but I think the country as a whole has become much more fearful and stupid. 

I think they were (especially in the begining), but I think now people are starting to wake up. Which is great.

The fact that 3 years after 9-11 people were scared into voting for Bush again goes to show you we still have along way to go.

The "fact"?   

although you might be right....Kerry did scare alot of people into voting for Bush. 

So you're implying we're better off with Bush as president?  Please respond no so I don't have to laundry list the lies hes told us and the crimes against the country and our constituion....but if you insist "YES", I'll be more then happy to recount them for you

better off than what? no, i wasn't implying that at all. but you stated as "FACT" that people were "scared into voting for bush". that's not a "fact", it is an unproven theory.

kerry was on Meet the Press yesterday and he admitted that he made major mistakes in the campaign. he is to blame - not the scare tactics.


back on topic - both parties would have to be involved.

and if i was in the U.S government, and had to create a plan like 9/11, i would make saddam the bad guy from the get-go. set off a bomb in the U.S. and blame iraq. then go right in and get him. why waste time dicking around with al queda? the whole world hates them - they were already the bad guys. we didn't need to make them look any worse. clinton already tried (and failed) to get bin laden. and they don't have oil.

oh jeez, don't take me so literally....you sound like a guy from Loose Change trying to make a lame arguement against me haha kidding.  I saw Kerry's comments, but if you dont' think the fear factor is what got Bush re-elected you aren't being honest with yourself.  The entire Iraq war was fabricated on a lie that if we didnt' get Sadamm he would nuke us...de-classified memos now show us that Blair and Bush both knew before the first bomb was dropped that Iraq most likely did not  contain WMDs.  he used fear, and us Americans are a VERY cowardly lot, to scare us into voting for him...OR ELSE WE'D ALL DIE!!!!!  With all the pre war intelligence you do wonder if Bush and his cronies allowed a massive attack to happen just so they could justify their neo-con agenda.

[SLCPUNK]

SLC - you ever see Wag The Dog?  Great movie.  Really fucks with your head if you start thinking about it....

It has been a while. I should watch it again..........

The entire Iraq war was fabricated on a lie that if we didnt' get Sadamm he would nuke us...de-classified memos now show us that Blair and Bush both knew before the first bomb was dropped that Iraq most likely did not  contain WMDs.  he used fear, and us Americans are a VERY cowardly lot, to scare us into voting for him...OR ELSE WE'D ALL DIE!!!!!  With all the pre war intelligence you do wonder if Bush and his cronies allowed a massive attack to happen just so they could justify their neo-con agenda.

Two words: "Mushroom cloud"

********


http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/ is another great site with info that disputes the 9-11 theory.

[sandman]

you say bush used fear to win.

i say bush did a better job of getting americans to believe he could handle terror and iraq more effectively.

FEAR does NOT equal a bush win, IF Kerry could have convinced the public he was the better man to handle terror. ?


by the way, it was the movie "wag the dog" that got me thinking of a thousand better ways the government could have orchestrated 9/11.

[The Dog]

you say bush used fear to win.

i say bush did a better job of getting americans to believe he could handle terror and iraq more effectively.

FEAR does NOT equal a bush win, IF Kerry could have convinced the public he was the better man to handle terror. 


by the way, it was the movie "wag the dog" that got me thinking of a thousand better ways the government could have orchestrated 9/11.

I'll give you that, it took me a while to relunctantly admit that Kerry really never did propose a plan and was a weak candidate - but how people voted for bush again I don't know.  Actually, I do....bush and rove made the non-issues (gay rights, religion, abortion etc..) the main issues.  he also swift boated Kerry out of the race too (but kerry admitted he didn't fight back hard on that quickly enough).

Have you heard kerry lately though?  Thems fightin' words!!!!!  Then again, its pretty easy to take shots at bush - theres just an over abundance of material to choose from.

[journey]

According to the video...."No bodies were found" - at the Flight 93 crash in Pennsylvania.

It supposedly landed in Cleveland .The people were evacuated? And were taken to a NASA research center and they're safely living somewhere now?

What about the phone call from Todd Beamer to his wife, Lisa?

Lisa Beamer was thrust into the national spotlight after her husband,
Todd, led a counterattack against terrorists on United Flight 93.
He--and all the other passenger heroes--lost their lives in a Pennsylvania
field. But that plane was the only one of the four hijacked planes on
9-11 that didn't hit its target--most likely the White House or the
Capitol.

Can this be explained?

That's why I have a hard time believing this.

[leesixxrose]

According to the video...."No bodies were found" - at the Flight 93 crash in Pennsylvania.

It supposedly landed in Cleveland .The people were evacuated? And were taken to a NASA research center and they're safely living somewhere now?

What about the phone call from Todd Beamer to his wife, Lisa?

Lisa Beamer was thrust into the national spotlight after her husband,
Todd, led a counterattack against terrorists on United Flight 93.
He--and all the other passenger heroes--lost their lives in a Pennsylvania
field. But that plane was the only one of the four hijacked planes on
9-11 that didn't hit its target--most likely the White House or the
Capitol.

Can this be explained?

That's why I have a hard time believing this.

[leesixxrose]

According to the video...."No bodies were found" - at the Flight 93 crash in Pennsylvania.

It supposedly landed in Cleveland .The people were evacuated? And were taken to a NASA research center and they're safely living somewhere now?

What about the phone call from Todd Beamer to his wife, Lisa?

Lisa Beamer was thrust into the national spotlight after her husband,
Todd, led a counterattack against terrorists on United Flight 93.
He--and all the other passenger heroes--lost their lives in a Pennsylvania
field. But that plane was the only one of the four hijacked planes on
9-11 that didn't hit its target--most likely the White House or the
Capitol.

Can this be explained?

That's why I have a hard time believing this.

Lisa Beemer doesnt exsist... its made up....

[mikegiuliana]

kind of funny when you think the movie for 9-11 is coming out before the buildings are even rebuilt or something is put there beside building #7..

[SuperMike]

kind of funny when you think the movie for 9-11 is coming out before the buildings are even rebuilt or something is put there beside building #7..

Do you know the plans of the new buildings to be made, will they rebuild the Twin towers?

[D]

Im 10 minutes in and I can see why people would believe this.

I went from thinking this was the dumbest craziest piece of shit thread ever to seeing the possibilities.

id like to see a rebuttal that way I could make a more educated assessment.

I dont know how credible the guy who made this is and where he got his info but It is very interesting.

I dont have time to watch the entire hour/21 minutes, but Im gonna be sure to do it tomorrow.

This video makes me feel somewhat uncomfortable.

I dont believe in remote Control planes and no passengers dying but I can see how it would make people question the governments knowledge and possible involvement.



this is like something out of a Dean Koontz novel.

[SLCPUNK]

I'm watching the two hour speech the BYU professor is giving right now.

I am going to email him with questions when I am done. I am going to ask him if he is liberal or conservative too. However I can almost bet with that he is a conservative, especially being at BYU.

There is another short speech given by an MIT engineer explaining how it is impossible for the towers to have fallen in such a way as well.

[journey]

According to the video...."No bodies were found" - at the Flight 93 crash in Pennsylvania.

It supposedly landed in Cleveland .The people were evacuated? And were taken to a NASA research center and they're safely living somewhere now?

What about the phone call from Todd Beamer to his wife, Lisa?

Lisa Beamer was thrust into the national spotlight after her husband,
Todd, led a counterattack against terrorists on United Flight 93.
He--and all the other passenger heroes--lost their lives in a Pennsylvania
field. But that plane was the only one of the four hijacked planes on
9-11 that didn't hit its target--most likely the White House or the
Capitol.

Can this be explained?

That's why I have a hard time believing this.

Lisa Beemer doesnt exsist... its made up....

Then why did I see her on TV? Is it a "wag the dog" situation?

The video/documentary makes it seem like everything (9/11) was staged and intricately choreographed.

I feel like it's a slap to the face for the victims of September 11th. Yes, a lot of questions still need to be answered, but to say that those people weren't on the planes and didn't die is wrong, not to mention highly disrespectful.

If this theory were true, it would be the biggest lie in history. In consequence, there would most definitely be a lynching of the White House by most U.S. citizens.

Taking the lives of thousands for insurance money, gold, and oil? The right wing, conservative Republican, oil-rich Bush family and others like them, may be money-minded but would they really be that evil?

I'm guessing No. I think logic needs to be observed first and foremost. I don't like the Bush admin. My vote didn't go to them the first time or second. I'm purely democratic, but I think these accusations are crazy.

[SLCPUNK]

According to the video...."No bodies were found" - at the Flight 93 crash in Pennsylvania.

It supposedly landed in Cleveland .The people were evacuated? And were taken to a NASA research center and they're safely living somewhere now?

What about the phone call from Todd Beamer to his wife, Lisa?

Lisa Beamer was thrust into the national spotlight after her husband,
Todd, led a counterattack against terrorists on United Flight 93.
He--and all the other passenger heroes--lost their lives in a Pennsylvania
field. But that plane was the only one of the four hijacked planes on
9-11 that didn't hit its target--most likely the White House or the
Capitol.

Can this be explained?

That's why I have a hard time believing this.

Lisa Beemer doesnt exsist... its made up....

Then why did I see her on TV? Is it a "wag the dog" situation?

The video/documentary makes it seem like everything (9/11) was staged and intricately choreographed.

I feel like it's a slap to the face for the victims of September 11th. Yes, a lot of questions still need to be answered, but to say that those people weren't on the planes and didn't die is wrong, not to mention highly disrespectful.

If this theory were true, it would be the biggest lie in history. In consequence, there would most definitely be a lynching of the White House by most U.S. citizens.

Taking the lives of thousands for insurance money, gold, and oil? The right wing, conservative Republican, oil-rich Bush family and others like them, may be money-minded but would they really be that evil?

I'm guessing No. I think logic needs to be observed first and foremost. I don't like the Bush admin. My vote didn't go to them the first time or second. I'm purely democratic, but I think these accusations are crazy.

Billions upon billions of dollars were made starting with the fall of the WTC. That is a fact regardless of how one would feel about the movie.

It would be the biggest lie in your lifetime perhaps. But throughout history governments have created false attacks for various reasons.

Again it is not a right vs left issue. One would like it to be, but it is not.

The BYU professor speech is very well done and completely destroys the story we were given by the government. He is giving the talk to a group of engineers and physicists. He is part of a national scholar association that disagrees with the story given. You can see it HERE.

To me, it would be a slap in the face to the victims of 9-11 to not watch this professor speak.

[journey]

Thanks for the link. I'll check it out.

[journey]

Billions upon billions of dollars were made starting with the fall of the WTC. That is a fact regardless of how one would feel about the movie.

It would be the biggest lie in your lifetime perhaps. But throughout history governments have created false attacks for various reasons.

It's very hard to comprehend and digest, for me at least. I just can't imagine that kind of evil existing. I'm not totally naive. I know there are bad people in this world, but for it to come from someone in a position of trust like the president and others who are supposed to care and be looking out for everyone's best interest is unsettling.

[SLCPUNK]

Thanks for the link. I'll check it out.

You are welcome.


The professor gets a little philosophical as well around 1:06. He is a very timid and (obviously) religious man. He also points out that this transcends left vs. right issues around 1:00 too.

Billions upon billions of dollars were made starting with the fall of the WTC. That is a fact regardless of how one would feel about the movie.

It would be the biggest lie in your lifetime perhaps. But throughout history governments have created false attacks for various reasons.

It's very hard to comprehend and digest, for me at least. I just can't imagine that kind of evil existing. I'm not totally naive. I know there are bad people in this world, but for it to come from someone in a position of trust like the president and others who are supposed to care and be looking out for everyone's best interest is unsettling.

Well he also makes a great point about  the government lying about the dust after the WTC fall. He presents the scientific write up showing how high the PH was, and how it had high levels of mercury. Both very high health risks, if not deadly (he gives one example of a firefighter who died afterwards from the dust.) He shows how the government took the scientific data and then lied about it, claiming it was safe to re-enter the area. Which was blatantly false, and it was more important to get the economy going once again (financial district) then the health of it's own people. It is a smaller scale example of how money trumps the good of the people.

The Q&A was interesting at the end as well.

[leesixxrose]

We will never know... just the same as the Kennedy Assasination... our goverment has been doing and covering up things for decades... Look at the war Georgie W got us into and hes gonna pass it on to Administrations for years....  Alot of interesting points and im sure the towers fell from something other than the planes... same as the pentagon... same as the kennedy grassy knoll... Where there is smoke there is fire.... 

[sandman]

for this conspiracy theory to be true, there's alot of lying that needs to be done by alot of people; including families of civilians. 


Lyz Glick: Widow of Flight 93 passenger Jeremy Glick

Wednesday, September 11, 2002

By Cindi Lash, Post-Gazette Staff Writer

To the rest of the world, her husband is a mythic hero, one of the patriots who fought to thwart the hijackers of United Flight 93.

Little Emerson Glick was just 3 months old when her father, Jeremy, died aboard United Flight 93, which crashed in Somerset County. Since then, her mother, Lyz, has vowed to make sure that Emmy remembers her father not just as a hero of a hijacked airplane, but as a man who thought that everything about his daughter was magnificent.

But at home in Hewitt, N.J., with her 15-month-old daughter, Emerson, Lyz Glick points to his photograph and talks about everything else she treasured about her husband, Jeremy -- his sense of humor, his observant, confident nature and his absolute conviction that their daughter's every gurgle or coo was extraordinary.

To Lyz Glick, keeping those memories crisp and vibrant as Emmy grows up is as important as one day telling their daughter about the day Jeremy died, leading the battle aboard Flight 93 to take back the plane.

"I don't want to see what her dad did on Sept. 11 as the defining point in his life. The country knows him that way, but the country didn't know him as a father and husband," she said. "He is a real person to me, and that's the goal for her."

Jeremy Glick, 31, used a GTE Airfone to call his wife from Flight 93. After telling Lyz he loved her and needed her to be happy, he spoke of a plan to regain control of the plane. He joked about arming himself with his butter knife from breakfast. Lyz told him, "You need to be strong."

Now it is Lyz who must be strong. On days when she's wanted to lie in bed and weep, she's remembered her pledge to provide Emmy with the happy, secure childhood that she and Jeremy had planned.

"She gets up, so I have to get up. She's a baby, and she doesn't realize the strength she gives me," Lyz said of the energetic toddler with a half-dozen teeth, an endless supply of hugs for their three dogs and a growing vocabulary that includes "Da-Da."

"It's fascinating to watch her, but bittersweet, too," she said. "I can call my best girlfriend and say, 'Emmy took her first steps.' But it's not the same."

For Lyz, time's passage has been "surreal," with last Sept. 11 sometimes feeling like yesterday, sometimes like decades ago. At first, she read or watched every media report about that day and its aftermath. Now, newspapers go unread and her TV remote clicks past reports that are likely to upset her.

"It is my strong belief that, with everything that was going on that morning, Jeremy's plane should never have taken off," she said, noting that Flight 93 was late taking off and could have been grounded. "But I try not to dwell on it. I don't find [anger] productive and I believe, in the afterlife, that the terrorists will have what is coming to them."

In the weeks after Jeremy's death, Lyz, 32, found it difficult to be at home without the man she'd met in high school and married in 1996. In October, she, Emmy and the dogs joined her parents in Kiawah Island, S.C.

She stayed until after Thanksgiving, when her heart signaled her to go home. Now she is striving "to be as healthy as possible" and is raising Emmy in both her Christian faith and Jeremy's Judaism, with help from Jeremy's family.

"This is where he is. It's very comfortable now," she said. "It's a very peaceful feeling that I do have because I believe it's not the end. I know it's not."

Still, first occasions without Jeremy have been bleak.

At Christmas dinner, she left the table after her first bite of beef filet triggered flashes of her meat-and-potatoes-loving husband. Wary of another potentially rocky period between her Aug. 31 wedding anniversary, Jeremy's Sept. 3 birthday and the Sept. 11 observances, she took a quiet trip with friends.

But she is back at work, teaching online classes from her home for Berkeley College in New York. She's shopping again in her old, familiar grocery after briefly switching to a new store, where she learned to stop filling her cart with the gallons of milk, steak and regular soda she used to pick up for Jeremy.

She makes a point not to clutch Emmy too close or to be fearful about trips to New York, although she admits to "driving very quickly" across the George Washington Bridge. With Emmy, she flew to California this summer -- then was shaken when, out of the blue, Emmy pointed to the Airfone and chirped: "Da-Da."

"It was very strange. But I have faith that he's seeing us, that he's seeing it all,' she said. "I know there will be that first question about Sept. 11 some day ... that [Emmy] will hear people talk about him saving the White House or the Capitol.

"But I know my husband's actions that day weren't all about being a superhero, but about trying to get home to us, to her," she said. "That's what I want her to remember."

http://www.post-gazette.com/nation/20020911glick911p6.asp

Jeremy Glick, 31, from West Milford, New Jersey, called his wife, Liz, and in-laws in New York on a cell phone to tell them the plane had been hijacked, Joanne Makely, Glick's mother-in-law, told CNN. Glick said that one of the hijackers "had a red box he said was a bomb, and one had a knife of some nature," Makely said. Glick asked Makely if the reports about the attacks on the World Trade Center were true, and she told him they were. He left the phone for a while, returning to say, "The men voted to attack the terrorists," Makely said.

Thomas E. Burnett Jr., 38, of San Ramon, California, was a senior vice president and chief operating officer of Thoratec Corp., a medical research and development company, and the father of three. He made four calls to his wife, Deena, from the plane. Deena Burnett said that her husband told her that one passenger had been stabbed and that "a group of us are going to do something." He also told her that the people on board knew about the attack on the World Trade Center, apparently through other phone calls.

[Mal Brossard]

According to the video...."No bodies were found" - at the Flight 93 crash in Pennsylvania.

It supposedly landed in Cleveland .The people were evacuated? And were taken to a NASA research center and they're safely living somewhere now?

What about the phone call from Todd Beamer to his wife, Lisa?

Lisa Beamer was thrust into the national spotlight after her husband,
Todd, led a counterattack against terrorists on United Flight 93.
He--and all the other passenger heroes--lost their lives in a Pennsylvania
field. But that plane was the only one of the four hijacked planes on
9-11 that didn't hit its target--most likely the White House or the
Capitol.

Can this be explained?

That's why I have a hard time believing this.

Alright, a bit of theorizing here.  This is not my idea, but rather one I read elsewhere and mentioned previously in this thread.

Have you ever heard of the scenario known as "Operation Pearl?"  Flight 93 was not the only flight to possibly land in Cleveland.  As the theory goes, flights 11, 77 and 175 were both "replaced" by dummy planes, loaded with jet fuel and further extra explosives (in the cases of 11 and 175, at the very least).  If you try to track flights on a radar screen, it's relatively easy-- unless two planes get close enough to the point where they appear as one dot on the screen-- usually within about a mile and a half of each other.  As the theory goes, Flight 11 flew toward a parked, explosive-laden plane which took off and followed the path of 11 from a lower elevation, then turned its radar transponder on.  At about the same time, the real flight 11 turned its transponder off.  Therefore, the explosive laden plane looked like flight 11 to anyone watching on radar.  The real flight 11, with no transponder continued on to Cleveland where its passengers were unloaded.  The passengers were told that they were brought down due to mechanical problems.  Flights 77, 175, and 93 were also landed in Cleveland.  The passengers of these flights (note that all of these flights were maybe 1/2 full, tops) were all loaded on another plane.  This is the alleged Flight 93 that was shot down over Shanksville, PA by an A-10 Thunderbolt (debris from the flight was scattered across a span of approximately 20 miles, something that wouldn't happen after a normal crash; an "ear-witness" who was a Vietnam Vet said he heard a missile being launched not long before the plane came down; others report seeing a "military-type plane" circling the area afterward).  Easy way to dispose of the passengers and also make the explosions look even more grandiose.  The real planes were then scraped of all serial numbers, logos, and anything else that could trace them to the ones "destroyed" in the attacks, remote controlled out over the Atlantic ocean and dumped in, or sold to a third world nation.  To support the first theory, a man in New Jersey days before the attacks mentioned to his wife he saw something odd that evening as he was out walking-- 4 commercial planes flying in a perfect pattern together out over the Atlantic.  Why would commercial planes be doing that?

It's very hard to comprehend and digest, for me at least. I just can't imagine that kind of evil existing. I'm not totally naive. I know there are bad people in this world, but for it to come from someone in a position of trust like the president and others who are supposed to care and be looking out for everyone's best interest is unsettling.

And that's how they get away with it-- it seems so unbelievable that people refuse to believe it.  Doubters are labelled as paranoid, conspiracy theorists, and any other derogatory name you can imagine.  Writing about Flight 553 (an "accidental" crash set up to kill Dorothy Hunt, the wife of E. Howard Hunt who was paid $1M by President Nixon to keep quiet about "The Whole Bay of Pigs Thing" [later said to be a code name for the JFK assassination]) historian Carl Oglesby wrote:

"The act imputed is so monstrous that the imputation itself seems a monstrous act. Would this SINISTER FORCE of ours really kill so many innocent people to protect itself? Would it actually do that? In the time of My Lai? Secret wars? Allende? Dallas? Memphis? Los Angeles? Laurel? Fred Hamptons bedroom in Chicago? The Audobon ballroom in Harlem? The road to Selma? Jackson State? Kent State? Watergate?"

(The Yankee and Cowboy War, Berkley Medallion Books, NY, 1997)

Want more?

"Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."

-- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials

As for the ALLEGED cell phone conversations made from the flights, I think we've covered those here.  I don't feel like looking back in all of this to see if we did, but it seems it was so.  If not, I can cover those as well.