Renditions

[jarmo]

Here's a few questions for all those who think torture is ok.

You think US military should be able to torture suspected terrorists to save (American) lives, but what if terrorists torture American soldiers to save the lives of "their" people? Is that also ok?

Or are you gonna call them uncivilized animals when they do things like that?

Don't you think that using torture will make regular people in places like Iraq hate the USA even more? I guess that might cause more suicide bombers attacking the soldiers etc. Hate can motivate people to do scary things...




/jarmo

[sandman]

what if terrorists torture American soldiers to save the lives of "their" people?

that is hilarious!!

i see the point you're trying to make. i don't necessarily agree with it, but i understand where you're coming from.

but still, to talk about terrorists like they're just some normal group of people.....just average human beings like anyone else in the world. that is hilarious. 

[Charity Case]

Here's a few questions for all those who think torture is ok.

You think US military should be able to torture suspected terrorists to save (American) lives, but what if terrorists torture American soldiers to save the lives of "their" people? Is that also ok?

Or are you gonna call them uncivilized animals when they do things like that?

Don't you think that using torture will make regular people in places like Iraq hate the USA even more? I guess that might cause more suicide bombers attacking the soldiers etc. Hate can motivate people to do scary things...




/jarmo

Good question.? I'd say that what policies the enemy wants to use to manage their side of the war is up to them.? If they decide torturing American soldiers to extract information is a good idea, then it is probably in their best interest to do so.? I'd imagine they wouldn't have to debate the "liberal" terrorists to do so.

But your point is somewhat trumped jarmo.? See the enemy skips right from torture to beheadings.

If torturing suspected terrorists in rare situations (again, notice the use of the term "rare") saves lives, prevents another 9/11, or other helps the cause,? then there should be absolutely no reason to not do it.? No one is condoning torture of all captured insurgents.

See, we should not be looking at what they other side does in determining our course of action.? They won't pigeonhole themselves that way.? If they did, they would not target innocent lives.? we should adopyt policies on their merit.? Will they or have they proven to work in the past.? In this case, the answer is most certainly yes.

[jarmo]

but still, to talk about terrorists like they're just some normal group of people.....just average human beings like anyone else in the world. that is hilarious.?

Who said they were normal?

They're extremist who use that kind of methods. I'm just wondering why some people think it's ok for you to use torture, but when these terrorists use them, they're animals. Wouldn't take make both groups of people uncivilized animals?





/jarmo

[D]

Is capturing a known terrorist and capturing a journalist the same thing?

I dont think so.


My attitude is, all is fair in war.

U cant fight a war and be successful if u are handcuffed with all sorts of rules.

If the enemy feels that they can win a war by torturing American's for information, I say its war, it happens. If the US capture known terrorist and torture them to gain valuable information, once again its war.

U dont think shit like this has went on since the beginning of time? 


U cant fight a war hamstrung with rules when the enemy has no rules.

It would be like playing a hockey game and the other team gets an extra skater whereas u have to keep your goalie pulled the entire game.

I think the media have too much power and too much access to the war and thats why it cant be fought as effectively as it is needed to be.

God forbid a couple innocent civilians get killed, shit would hit the fan, but this sadly is war and I dont think you can place restrictions and rules on something like war.

[sandman]

but still, to talk about terrorists like they're just some normal group of people.....just average human beings like anyone else in the world. that is hilarious.?

Who said they were normal?

They're extremist who use that kind of methods. I'm just wondering why some people think it's ok for you to use torture, but when these terrorists use them, they're animals. Wouldn't take make both groups of people uncivilized animals?





/jarmo

you said "WHAT IF"....as if they don't already!!

do you honestly think we need to give them a fuckin reason to torture??? what reason did we give al queda to blow US citizens to pieces over the last several years?

you're trying to say that torturing members of al queda is the same as torturing US citizens!

unbelievable.

[jarmo]

you're trying to say that torturing members of al queda is the same as torturing US citizens!

No, I'm saying that the people who oppose torture might not see the US military as more civilized than the people they're fighting when both use the same methods.

When you kill civilians in a war, it's usually explained with "shit happens, it's a war". To the terrorists, they're fighting a war as well. But you don't say "shit happens" when tube trains and buses are blown up in London or when planes are used in terrorist attacks in USA.


You don't seem to realize that things like this will give the nutcases another reason to attack you again.




/jarmo

[sandman]

you're trying to say that torturing members of al queda is the same as torturing US citizens!

No, I'm saying that the people who oppose torture might not see the US military as more civilized than the people they're fighting when both use the same methods.

When you kill civilians in a war, it's usually explained with "shit happens, it's a war". To the terrorists, they're fighting a war as well. But you don't say "shit happens" when tube trains and buses are blown up in London or when planes are used in terrorist attacks in USA.


You don't seem to realize that things like this will give the nutcases another reason to attack you again.




/jarmo

you honestly believe they need another reason? are you being serious?

that's an insane statement IMO.

and by the way, the US military does not explain civilian deaths the way you describe. they make all effort to minimize civilian deaths. they certainly don't turture/behead/murder them.

[SLCPUNK]

See, we should not be looking at what they other side does in determining our course of action. 

Funny, since you use that to justify you actions.

[jarmo]

you honestly believe they need another reason? are you being serious?

that's an insane statement IMO.

I guess by "they" you mean terrorists. I was talking about people who aren't terrorist at the moment, but might do extreme things if they get the "right" motivation.
 

and by the way, the US military does not explain civilian deaths the way you describe. they make all effort to minimize civilian deaths. they certainly don't turture/behead/murder them.

I was talking about people who support the war.

Of course the military try to minimise the amount of killed civilians.



/jarmo

[SLCPUNK]

I am baffled when people have a hard time assessing the horror of an act if it is committed by the United States, but have no problem pointing the finger and screaming "Horrors!" when it the same act is committed by another country. It is also very puzzling when these people speak down to the rest of us with their pseudo morals and self appointed intellect.

The America I lived and learned about as a child did not do this stuff. Period. We were known for having wiped out the Nazis without having Abu Graib's all over Germany. We also rebuilt the place after we destroyed it without using the former employer of the Vice President, much less with special exemptions from normal government contracting regulations, as the prime contractor. We were the country that founded the UN back then, not the one that scorns it.

America is becoming susceptible to the same weaknesses that befell the Germans when they became the Nazis. We are on our way, unless we stop this madness. What you see on this board: Charity, GunsNRockMusic, Sandman, and others are just that: madness. If we choose that road, you will see nothing but blood and the fall of America. Lucky for America, their view is the minority and frowned upon more now.

[sandman]

i guess you missed the poll that says 61% of americans say torture is ok.

61% = majority.

[pilferk]

lol, I was raised by conservatives who use common sense to outweight useless drivel such as political correctness.? By the looks of my country, there is at least 50% of us raised this way.? I also grew up on disney.? ? I have annual passes actually for the wife and kids.? But disney is escapism, not reality.? In the real world I was taught to look at issues using common sense (i.e. if you torture 5 men to save 5,000 that makes sense).

If only common sense were NEARLY as common as the name implies.

Let me ask you this, Charity.? What is it that makes the terrorists so terrible?

The answer: Their blatant disregard for loss of innocent humanlife and their barbaric, cruel tactics.? Not their religion, not their politics, but the methods they use to achieve their objectives...in fact, that's the very DEFINITION of a terrorist.

So, when we start adopting many of the same tactics...aren't they really winning the war, anyway?? Since their whole objective is to make "us" into "them".? I mean, that's what they want....

Common sense.....

[sandman]

lol, I was raised by conservatives who use common sense to outweight useless drivel such as political correctness.? By the looks of my country, there is at least 50% of us raised this way.? I also grew up on disney.? ? I have annual passes actually for the wife and kids.? But disney is escapism, not reality.? In the real world I was taught to look at issues using common sense (i.e. if you torture 5 men to save 5,000 that makes sense).

If only common sense were NEARLY as common as the name implies.

Let me ask you this, Charity.? What is it that makes the terrorists so terrible?

The answer: Their blatant disregard for loss of innocent humanlife and their barbaric, cruel tactics.? Not their religion, not their politics, but the methods they use to achieve their objectives...in fact, that's the very DEFINITION of a terrorist.

So, when we start adopting many of the same tactics...aren't they really winning the war, anyway?? Since their whole objective is to make "us" into "them".? I mean, that's what they want....

Common sense.....

i disagree. you're forgetting a key pice of your "definition" of a terrorist - "innocent humanlife".

that's the key piece. so no, we are not adopting the same tactics.

[pilferk]

? First, I am not a terrorist and do not look like a terrorist

Perhaps you can offer an evidence based description of what, specifically, a terrorist looks like....

'cause last time I checked, terrorists didn't have a SPECIFIC look....at least not specific enough for me to pick one out of a crowd.

[pilferk]

I disagree. you're forgetting a key pice of your "definition" of a terrorist - "innocent humanlife".

that's the key piece. so no, we are not adopting the same tactics.

So you have proof of their guilt?  Categoric?

We are using the same tactics....

[sandman]

I disagree. you're forgetting a key pice of your "definition" of a terrorist - "innocent humanlife".

that's the key piece. so no, we are not adopting the same tactics.

So you have proof of their guilt?? Categoric?

We are using the same tactics....

no one on this board has proof of anything going on in iraq.

but to the best of our knowledge, the US is not torturing journalists and civilians. major difference. using your definition of terrorist.

[pilferk]

You look like a fucking fool using the same name calling in every post btw.? "liar"? "racist"? Why not drop the name calling and have a discussion.? Don't make me go crying to jarmo like some of you have done.? ?

It's not "name calling" when there's documented proof of you lying and making racist statements, FYI.

[pilferk]

no one on this board has proof of anything going on in iraq.

but to the best of our knowledge, the US is not torturing journalists and civilians. major difference. using your definition of terrorist.

Really?? So you know, for a fact, that everyone "rendered" was guilty?? 'Cause, otherwise, they WERE civilians and NOT terrorists.?

Or are you just ignoring that particular point?

And it's STILL using barbaric methods.? Then it just becomes about perspective....and precedent.

[Cornell]

U cant fight a war hamstrung with rules when the enemy has no rules.

D - I agree with your post 100% especially this part!