Renditions

[shades]

You don't seem to realize that things like this will give the nutcases another reason to attack you again.




/jarmo

And what you dont seem to realize is why should we reason with a nutcase that would behead a journalist?
think about what you write before you hit the send button. come on man.

[jarmo]

And what you dont seem to realize is why should we reason with a nutcase that would behead a journalist?
think about what you write before you hit the send button. come on man.

Reason? WTF?

Time after time I see people saying how certain things would only happen in certain parts of the world because we're so civilized in the Western world. What happened to that? What happened to the idea that we could be more civilized than the terrorists? Do we have to use the same methods they do? I know there are idiots in every corner of the planet, but when we're proud of they way we live and the morals we have, maybe we could actually live by them.


I'm not saying you have to treat terrorists like you'd treat other prisoners, but you have to draw the line somewhere. If you're gonna be the most advanced powerful country on the planet, maybe you don't have to give the people in Iraq another reason to hate you?



/jarmo

[shades]

The people in Iraq dont hate us.
Look at the polls, the real polls, the polls from soldiers serving in the field.
we are largely being embraced. A man wants nothing more for his children than for them to have a choice.
And if that kid has a choice maybe he wont grow up angry to cover his fear.
Because thats what drives hate, fear. And hate drives a man to do extroidanary things.
Peace is our only hope of defeating terror my friend. And the way things were going in the region it would only get worse.

the terrorists in iraq hate us, sure.
But who cares.
I cant imagine an American soldier snatching an innocent man woman or child out of their daily lives and torturing them
I may be wrong but I doubt it, and so do you. But the opposite supports liberal argument so what we get is out of porportion drival.

[jarmo]

I cant imagine an American soldier snatching an innocent man woman or child out of their daily lives and torturing them

A German man sued the CIA for arresting him.

Since you say it's ok to use torture if they suspect a person of being a terrorist, wouldn't it been ok to torture him?




/jarmo

[Skeba]

Sounds reasonable...

I'm sorry. Had to do that.

[Charity Case]

So, when we start adopting many of the same tactics...aren't they really winning the war, anyway?  Since their whole objective is to make "us" into "them".  I mean, that's what they want....

Who says we should adopt their tactics?  Not one person has suggested we target civilians.  Not one person has suggested we use terror as a tool.  Terror and torture are two completely different tactics.  I am not condoning beheading contractors.  I am suggesting we should use torture in rare occasions where we feel it could save many lives.  It's not that radical really. 

As for the whole slc arguement that "this isn't the America I grew up with".  Well no shit sherlock.  The America post 9/11 is a different animal from pre 9/11.  We need to make changes to our society to adapt.  If that includes using torture in rare occasion, then so the fuck what.

[Charity Case]

? First, I am not a terrorist and do not look like a terrorist

Perhaps you can offer an evidence based description of what, specifically, a terrorist looks like....

'cause last time I checked, terrorists didn't have a SPECIFIC look....at least not specific enough for me to pick one out of a crowd.

Sure.  A vast vast majority of them are middle eastern men between the ages of 15-47.  There are exceptions, but that pretty much nutshells it for you.

[Charity Case]

I cant imagine an American soldier snatching an innocent man woman or child out of their daily lives and torturing them

A German man sued the CIA for arresting him.

Since you say it's ok to use torture if they suspect a person of being a terrorist, wouldn't it been ok to torture him?


Of course not.  And by all accounts he wasn't tortured, just arrested. 
No one has yet provided a good reason to not use torure on a limited few if it could possible save lives.  And stating idealistic drivel like "well that's not the America I grew up with" is not a good reason.  Rest assured that the US has used torture in every major conflict since 1776.  It is just now with the media the way it is and the unprecedented access they are afforded, there is no way to hide it.  Your old America used the same tactics I'm sure.

/jarmo

[jarmo]

Of course not.? And by all accounts he wasn't tortured, just arrested.?

I know, but he was a suspexted terrorist.

Where do you draw the line of who should be tortured and who shouldn't? What if you torture an innocent person?

No one has yet provided a good reason to not use torure on a limited few if it could possible save lives.? And stating idealistic drivel like "well that's not the America I grew up with" is not a good reason.? Rest assured that the US has used torture in every major conflict since 1776.? It is just now with the media the way it is and the unprecedented access they are afforded, there is no way to hide it.? Your old America used the same tactics I'm sure.

The problem is, who decides when to use what.



As far as I know, there's also the issue of having laws that say it's forbidden to torture others. I guess you're above international laws.....



/jarmo

[shades]

the people being shot at and threatened with death decide that, thats who.
Why is that a difficult concept.

And whats with every liberal post on here, almost anyway, containing a 'not one shred of evidence has been given'
or 'prove it'
who the hell do we think we are that we think every move made by a man or woman in combat has to be justified to us.
Or a president in charge of protecting an entire nations security has to go public and justify every move he makes.
come on man... please, think.

[pilferk]

? First, I am not a terrorist and do not look like a terrorist

Perhaps you can offer an evidence based description of what, specifically, a terrorist looks like....

'cause last time I checked, terrorists didn't have a SPECIFIC look....at least not specific enough for me to pick one out of a crowd.

Sure.? A vast vast majority of them are middle eastern men between the ages of 15-47.? There are exceptions, but that pretty much nutshells it for you.

Well, jeez...that really narrows it down, now don't it.

"looks like a terrorist"   

[pilferk]

who the hell do we think we are that we think every move made by a man or woman in combat has to be justified to us.
Or a president in charge of protecting an entire nations security has to go public and justify every move he makes.
come on man... please, think.

I had decided to ignore the troll, but this bears at least a cursory response:

It's called "accountability".? You should read up on it.? Our forefathers thought so highly of the concept, they built it into our founding documentation.

[SLCPUNK]

So, when we start adopting many of the same tactics...aren't they really winning the war, anyway?  Since their whole objective is to make "us" into "them".  I mean, that's what they want....

Who says we should adopt their tactics?  Not one person has suggested we target civilians.  Not one person has suggested we use terror as a tool.  Terror and torture are two completely different tactics.  I am not condoning beheading contractors.  I am suggesting we should use torture in rare occasions where we feel it could save many lives.  It's not that radical really. 

You are missing the point that many (60 percent was posted here before) of those held, ended up being released because they were innocent.

You keep ignoring this point because your entire "argument" falls flat.

[Charity Case]

So, when we start adopting many of the same tactics...aren't they really winning the war, anyway?? Since their whole objective is to make "us" into "them".? I mean, that's what they want....

Who says we should adopt their tactics?? Not one person has suggested we target civilians.? Not one person has suggested we use terror as a tool.? Terror and torture are two completely different tactics.? I am not condoning beheading contractors.? I am suggesting we should use torture in rare occasions where we feel it could save many lives.? It's not that radical really.?

You are missing the point that many (60 percent was posted here before) of those held, ended up being released because they were innocent.

You keep ignoring this point because your entire "argument" falls flat.

My arguement doesn't fall flat.  Most people agree with my stance here.  I really don't see how anyone with a shred (I mean a samall morsel) of common sense, could be against the use of torture under the circumstances I have stated here.

The question that really matters is how many of them have been tortured?  Do we torture 1 in 100 or 1 in 500 prisoners?  I have no idea and really really don't care.  It is most likely a very small percentage whereas grunt field terrorists would likely have no knowledge of large planning efforts by the al qaeda leaders.  Your point about us releasing the innocent only further makes my point.  Here it is in short:

1.  We arrest suspected terrorist

2.  After interrogation and investigation we release the ones that are innocent

3.  After interrogation we imprison the ones we think are guity for further investigation.

4.  After further investigation, we take a rare few to be tortured to learn of plans for other terrorist acts that in learning of them we may save thousands of inncoent lives (including probably more than any other group, innocent iraqi lives).

slc, if we capture AL Zaquawi, would you be against torturing that bag of useless shit in hopes of learning something important about future al quadea planned attacks or even the whereabouts of bin laden?  Would you be for protecting his rights?  Please, for your own sake, answer that you'd be in favor using torture (in this rare instance), because otherwise it will be impossible for people to take you seriously if you don't.

[SLCPUNK]

The question that really matters is how many of them have been tortured?  Do we torture 1 in 100 or 1 in 500 prisoners?  I have no idea and really really don't care.  It is most likely a very small percentage whereas grunt field terrorists would likely have no knowledge of large planning efforts by the al qaeda leaders.  Your point about us releasing the innocent only further makes my point.  Here it is in short:

1.  We arrest suspected terrorist

2.  After interrogation and investigation we release the ones that are innocent

3.  After interrogation we imprison the ones we think are guity for further investigation.

4.  After further investigation, we take a rare few to be tortured to learn of plans for other terrorist acts that in learning of them we may save thousands of inncoent lives (including probably more than any other group, innocent iraqi lives).

You seem to "know" the process? I find this very unlikely.

"We think are guilty"...... What defines this?

What defines innocent? How long are you held until you are released? Charged or not charged with a crime?

[Where is Hassan Nasrallah ?]

the people being shot at and threatened with death decide that, thats who.
Why is that a difficult concept.

what about that guy who was shot recently in a plane cause he was crazy.
i mean. shoot first ask questions later. is that the Reno 911 method ?

america's just young and stupid. she's just doing the mistake europe has been doing for centuries. it's fine. we went thru that. we tortured. we hated. we thought we were better than everybody. we've grown up. america is just a 16 years old brat

[pilferk]

what about that guy who was shot recently in a plane cause he was crazy.
i mean. shoot first ask questions later. is that the Reno 911 method ?

OK, hold the phone on that one.

The guy was shot...true.

He was also carrying a duffel bag and yelling something to the effect that he had a bomb (at least by the reports I heard directly after the incident).  The Sky Marshalls repeatedly asked the guy to stop.  He kept running and screaming.  They shot him.  Any law enforcement officer in the country would do the same.

The guys wife, reportedly, said he was bi-polar and OFF HIS MEDS. 

It's sad that an innocent man had to die because of his own stupidity.  But the Marshals gave him every opportunity to come out of the situation alive.

[Sterlingdog]

america's just young and stupid. she's just doing the mistake europe has been doing for centuries. it's fine. we went thru that. we tortured. we hated. we thought we were better than everybody. we've grown up. america is just a 16 years old brat

While I don't agree with you, I know that view of America is widely held in Europe, particularly France.  And its only going to get worse if we decide to start condoning torture.  Unfortunately, right now we seem to be going backwards in development, not growing at all. 

[2NaFish]

alot of people here seem to think that just because the majority agrees with something that its suddenly ok. Which is one of the most basic fallacies you'll ever encounter. Just because the majority condone torture doesnt make it true based on that.

In a civilized society torture is wrong in any situation. By torturing others you lose the arguement with the terrorists.

[Charity Case]

the people being shot at and threatened with death decide that, thats who.
Why is that a difficult concept.

what about that guy who was shot recently in a plane cause he was crazy.
i mean. shoot first ask questions later. is that the Reno 911 method ?

america's just young and stupid. she's just doing the mistake europe has been doing for centuries. it's fine. we went thru that. we tortured. we hated. we thought we were better than everybody. we've grown up. america is just a 16 years old brat

That guy was shot and it was completely justifiable. ?

As for America being young, its true. ?But it took us a relatively short amount of time to shoot past Europe in terms of economy, military might,r pop culture, medical advancement and technological breakthoughs. ?We lead the way in space and under the sea. ?We have also saved Europe's ass on a couple of occasions. ?So when you speak of America in term of infancy, try to show a bit of respect for the position we hold in this world relative to our age. ?We may make mistakes, but comparing us to Europe and placing us behind it is just wrong.

So who is it that is stupid enough to believe we shouldn't torture al kazawi if we find him to try to learn as much as we can about the terrorist network? ?I'll tell you what. ?If we find him, some moronic left wing fanatic will be against torturing him. ?Crazy isn't it.