The Iraq / war on terror thread

[Booker Floyd]

Iraq as a Dead End Street

Two areas of inquiry follow naturally from this background:

First, how could we induce our allies to join us in Iraq now?  Why should they now put troops in Iraq and suffer the pain with us? Could we seriously expect them to do so?

Second, is remaining in Iraq the best strategy for a coalition of major states to stabilize the region?  Would a large NATO coalition of forces plus some from India, Japanese, and China enjoy more success?

On the first point, there is no chance that our allies will join us in Iraq. How could the leaders of Germany, France, and other states in Europe convince their publics to support such a course of action? They could not, and their publics would not be wise to agree if their leaders pleaded for them to do so.

And on the second point, Iraq is the worst place to fight a battle for regional stability. Whose interests were best served by the U.S. invasion of Iraq in the first place? It turns out that Iran and al Qaeda benefited the most, and that continues to be true every day U.S. forces remain there. A serious review of our regional interests is required. Until that is accomplished and new and compelling aims for managing the region are clarified, continuing the campaign in Iraq makes no sense.

Withdrawal is the Precondition to Progress

Once we recognize these two realities, it becomes clear that U.S. withdrawal from Iraq is the precondition to winning the support of our allies and a few others for a joint approach to the region. Until that has been completed, they will not join such a coalition. And until that has happened, even we in the United States cannot think clearly about what constitutes our interests there, much let gain agreement about common interests for a coalition.

By contrast, any argument for "staying course," or seeking more stability before we withdraw -- or pointing out tragic consequences that withdrawal will cause -- is bound to be wrong, or at least unpersuasive. Putting it bluntly, those who insist on staying in Iraq longer make the consequences of withdrawal more terrible and make it harder to find an alternative strategy for achieving regional stability.

Once the invasion began in March 2003, all of the ensuing unhappy results became inevitable. The invasion of Iraq may well turn out to be the greatest strategic disaster in American history. In any event, the longer we stay, the worse it will be. Until that is understood, we will make no progress with our allies or in devising a promising alternative strategy.

"Staying the course" may make a good sound bite, but it can be disastrous for strategy. Several of Hitler's generals told him that "staying the course" at Stalingrad in 1942 was a strategic mistake, that he should allow the Sixth Army to be withdrawn, saving it to fight defensive actions on reduced frontage against the growing Red Army. He refused, lost the Sixth Army entirely, and left his commanders with fewer forces to defend a wider front. Thus he made the subsequent Soviet offensives westward easier.

To argue, as some do, that we cannot leave Iraq because "we broke it and therefore we own it" is to reason precisely the way Hitler did with his commanders. Of course we broke it!  But the Middle East is not a pottery store.  It is the site of major military conflict with several different forces that the United States is galvanizing into an alliance against America. To hang on to an untenable position is the height of irresponsibility.  Beware of anyone, including the president, who insists that this is "responsible" or "the patriotic" thing to do.

---

And who is Odom?  Im tempted to say he was assistant to Walter Mondale or someone...but Ive done enough Hannitizing for one night.    He was actually Director of the National Security Agency under Ronald Reagan (1985 to 1988) and Assistant Chief Of Staff for Intelligence (1981 to 1985).  He also worked as Assistant to National Security Advisor Zbigniew Brzezinski (1977 to 1981).

[SLCPUNK]

I followed that link and wow, that is one helluva an article.

[Booker Floyd]

And for those who believed Bush and the Republican Congress would make them safer (and Ive talked to plenty of them)...

9/11 Panel Gives Gov't Poor Marks on Reform

By LARA JAKES JORDAN, Associated Press Writer
1 hour, 29 minutes ago
 
WASHINGTON - More than four years after the Sept. 11 attacks, U.S. intelligence agencies still are failing to share information while Congress battles over security funding, a panel that investigated the terrorist hijackings will conclude in a new report.

In interviews Friday, members of the former Sept. 11 commission said the government should receive a dismal grade for its lack of urgency in enacting strong security measures to prevent terror attacks.

The 10-member, bipartisan commission disbanded after issuing 41 recommendations to bolster the nation's security in July 2004. The members have reconstituted themselves, using private funds, as the 9/11 Public Discourse Project and will release a new report Monday assessing the extent their directives have been followed.

Overall, the government has performed "not very well," said former commission chairman Thomas Kean, former Republican governor of New Jersey.

"Before 9-11, both the Clinton and Bush administrations said they had identified     Osama bin Laden and al-Qaida as problems that have to be dealt with, and were working on it," Kean said. "But they just were not very high on their priority list. And again it seems that the safety of the American people is not very high on Washington's priority list."

A spokesman at the     Homeland Security Department declined to comment until the report is issued Monday. Rep. Pete King, R-N.Y., chairman of the House Homeland Security Committee, acknowledged that some areas continue to be vulnerable but have not been addressed due to disagreements with the Senate.

Congress established the commission in 2002 to investigate government missteps that led to the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks. It found that the United States could not protect its citizens from the attacks because it underestimated al-Qaida. Since June, the former commissioners have held hearings to examine what they described as the government's unfinished agenda to secure the country.

Among the main concerns, which former Democratic commissioner Timothy Roemer said would receive the "worst grades":

_The United States is not doing enough to ensure that foreign nations are upgrading security measures to stop proliferation of nuclear, biological and chemical materials. Such materials could be used in weapons of mass destruction, and over 100 research reactors around the world have enough highly enriched uranium present to make a nuclear device.

"We've seen that Osama bin Laden likes to do spectacular things," said Roemer, a former Indiana congressman. "Is a dirty bomb next? ... We're not doing enough, and we're not doing it urgently enough."

_Police, firefighters, medics and other first responders still lack interconnected radio systems letting them communicate with each other during emergencies. Responders from different agencies at the World Trade Center were unable to coordinate rescues ? or receive information that could have saved their own lives ? on 9/11.

Congress last year approved spending nearly $1 billion on interoperable systems, but King said the matter is "a very difficult issue."

_Both the Bush administration and Congress have continued to distribute security funding to states without aiming most money at high-risk communities. The Homeland Security Department gave $2.5 billion in grants to states and 50 high-risk cities last year, but some rural states, like Wyoming, received more money per resident than terror targets like New York.

The House and Senate have been unable this year to agree on a funding formula that distributes money based solely on risk, threats and vulnerability. King said the Senate's proposal "is still living with a pork-barrel formula." But Senate Homeland Security Committee Chairwoman Susan Collins said in statement that her bipartisan plan "provides a meaningful baseline of funds to each state so that the nation as a whole can achieve essential levels of preparedness."

Kean said information-sharing gaps among turf-conscious federal intelligence agencies continue to exist. He also chastised the Transportation Security Administration for failing to consolidate multiple databases of passenger information into a single "terror watch list" that would make it easier for airlines to screen for suspicious travelers.

Moreover, expanded governmental powers to seek out terror-related intelligence have not been adequately balanced by civil liberties protections or oversight, said former Democratic commissioner Richard Ben-Veniste. He said     President Bush was "tardy in naming a civil liberties protection board, whose funding is anemic and which has not yet been met to get underway."

A bright spot in the government's performance is the creation of a national intelligence director to help coordinate all government terror information, Roemer said.

"Generally, the grades range all the way from A to F," Kean said.

Still, "No parent would be happy with this report card," said former Democratic commissioner Jamie Gorelick.

[Prometheus]

http://www.usmc.mil/marinelink/mcn2000.nsf/lookupstoryref/200456162723


Rochester, N.Y. Marine, receives Navy Cross

MARINE CORPS BASE CAMP PENDLETON, Calif. (May 6, 2004) -- Marine Capt. Brian R. Chontosh received the Navy Cross Medal from the Commandant of the United States Marine Corps, Gen. Michael W. Hagee, during an awards ceremony Thursday at Marine Corps Air Ground Combat Training Center, Twentynine Palms, Calif.



Marine Capt. Brian R. Chontosh received the Navy Cross Medal from the Commandant of the United States Marine Corps, Gen. Michael W. Hagee, during an awards ceremony Thursday at Marine Corps Air Ground Combat Training Center, Twentynine Palms, Calif. Photo by: Cpl. Jeremy Vought

Three other Marines received medals for valor at the same ceremony.

Chontosh, 29, from Rochester, N.Y. , received the naval service's second highest award for extraordinary heroism while serving as Combined Anti-Armor Platoon Commander, Weapons Company, 3rd Battalion, 5th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, 1st Marine Expeditionary Force, in support of Operation Iraqi Freedom March 25, 2003. The Medal of Honor is the highest military award.

While leading his platoon north on Highway 1 toward Ad Diwaniyah, Chontosh's platoon moved into a coordinated ambush of mortars, rocket propelled grenades and automatic weapons fire. With coalitions tanks blocking the road ahead, he realized his platoon was caught in a kill zone.

He had his driver move the vehicle through a breach along his flank, where he was immediately taken under fire from an entrenched machine gun. Without hesitation, Chontosh ordered the driver to advanced directly at the enemy position enabling his .50 caliber machine gunner to silence the enemy.

He then directed his driver into the enemy trench, where he exited his vehicle and began to clear the trench with an M16A2 service rifle and 9 millimeter pistol. His ammunition depleted, Chontosh, with complete disregard for his safety, twice picked up discarded enemy rifles and continued his ferocious attack.

When a Marine following him found an enemy rocket propelled grenade launcher, Chontosh used it to destroy yet another group of enemy soldiers.

When his audacious attack ended, he had cleared over 200 meters of the enemy trench, killing more than 20 enemy soldiers and wounding several others.

"They are the reflection of the Marine Corps type who's service to the Marine Corps and country is held above their own safety and lives," said Gen. Hagee, commenting on the four Marines who received medals during the ceremony. "I'm proud to be here awarding the second highest and third highest awards for bravery to these great Marines."

"These four Marines are a reflection of every Marine and sailor in this great battalion," said Sergeant Major of the Marine Corps, Sgt. Maj. John L. Estrada.

"I was just doing my job, I did the same thing every other Marine would have done, it was just a passion and love for my Marines, the experience put a lot into perspective," said Chontosh.

In effect since April 1917, and established by an Act of Congress on Feb. 4, 1919, the Navy Cross may be awarded to any person who, while serving with the Navy or Marine Corps, distinguishes himself/herself in action by extraordinary heroism not justifying an award of the Medal of Honor.

The action must take place under one of three circumstances: while engaged in action against an enemy of the United States; while engaged in military operations involving conflict with an opposing foreign force; or, while serving with friendly foreign forces engaged in an armed conflict in which the United States is not a belligerent party.
To earn a Navy Cross the act to be commended must be performed in the presence of great danger or at great personal risk and must be performed in such a manner as to render the individual highly conspicuous among others of equal grade, rate, experience, or position of responsibility.

More than 6,000 Navy Crosses have been awarded since World War I.

[Surfrider]

Nice article Prom.  You don't get these stories by the mainstream media too often.

[sandman]

Couple things.? First off, stop "making up" what we think.?

Thankyou.

I get tired of this bullshit game you guys ALL PLAY. You create these things "we would do" or "bet you'd do" over and over. So childish. D has just joined your little club recently and now he is telling me all the websites I read in my spare time and use as my quotes (which of course is false). This all really dances around one thing: lying. It isn't a lie in the true sense of the word, but you are creating something that is false, although not directly.

What do you expect from a group of racist liars?

so you're accusing "ALL" of us of playing "bullshit games", and calling us "racist liars".

those are very strong insults. accusations i don't take lightly.

but you're not exactly playing with a full deck. you don't really have an open mind. if you had half a brain i might be offended.

again, i thought insults were discouraged on this board. and i thought they only came from the brainwashed, hannitized, stupid conservatives. i guess i was wrong.   

[sandman]

Lieberman goes to iraq and says, "I saw real progress there" and the troops' morale is great. (little news coverage)

Murtha calls for withdrawl from iraq and says the troops are "broken". (front page news in most newspapers/websites)


Lieberman ?Encouraged' By Iraq Visit

POSTED: 5:57 pm EST November 28, 2005

WASHINGTON -- Sen. Joseph Lieberman, fresh from a two-day visit to Iraq over the Thanksgiving holiday, said Monday he was hopeful U.S. forces could begin a "significant" withdrawal by the end of next year or in 2007.

"The country is now in reach of going from Saddam Hussein to self-government and, I'd add, self-protection," Lieberman said in a conference call with reporters from his Washington home. "That would be a remarkable transformation ... I saw real progress there."

Lieberman, one of the most hawkish Democrats in the Senate, said the effectiveness of Iraqi security forces and the ability of a new Iraqi government to rule after the Dec. 15 elections are critical factors in determining when U.S. troops could come home. But if all goes well, he foresees a pullout beginning a year from now.

"If Iraqi forces continue to gain the confidence the American military sees there now ... We will be able to draw down our forces," he said.

Lieberman has visited Iraq four times in 17 months. He said there are signs life is returning to normal, including a profusion of cell phones and satellite TV dishes on rooftops.

"About two-thirds of the country is in really pretty good shape," he said, noting most attacks are in the so-called "Sunni Triangle" region. "Overall, I came back encouraged."

Lieberman said he hopes President Bush's speech Tuesday night will give a clearer picture to the American public of the progress being made in the war.

"It's time for some details," said Lieberman. "He's gotta describe some of the progress that I saw there. It's gotta be realistic."

U.S. military officials told him they hope that by next year, two-thirds of Iraq's military will be able to carry the fight to insurgents with limited logistical support from U.S. forces. Lieberman said U.S. commanders had learned from their early mistakes and were successfully pursuing a "clear-hold-build" strategy against rebel forces.

He cautioned, however, that "prematurely" pulling out U.S. forces would jeopardize the progress made thus far.

The senator said he ate three Thanksgiving meals at different bases visiting with troops, including about 50 soldiers from Connecticut.

"They look good, they're proud of what they're doing and of course they're anxious to get home, but they know they have a job to do," said Lieberman.

Lieberman wanted to personally report back to the families of the troops, but he said most of them had already sent back e-mails or telephoned home news of the meeting to friends and family in Connecticut.

The recent partisan battle in Congress over Iraq, including Pennsylvania Rep. Jack Murtha's call for an immediate troop pullout, has not significantly hurt troop morale, Lieberman added.

"As one general said, they're devoted to each other and the cause," Lieberman said.

The senator said some U.S. commanders expressed concern that some soldiers who were on their second or third deployments were suffering from stress.

[Dr. Blutarsky]

I value Lieberman's opinion much more than Murtha since Liberman actually went there and has a first hand account to base his statement on.

[Dr. Blutarsky]

Democrats Lack Unified Position on Iraq By LIZ SIDOTI, Associated Press Writer
1 hour, 25 minutes ago
 


WASHINGTON - House Democratic leader Nancy Pelosi says it's time for U.S. troops to start coming home from     Iraq. Her top lieutenant, Rep. Steny Hoyer (news, bio, voting record), says a precipitous pullout could be disastrous.


 
Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid calls on     President Bush to develop a timetable for the phased withdrawal of troops. Some of his Democratic colleagues, including Sen.     John Kerry, craft their own plans for the military's eventual return.

The only position Democrats seem to share is that Bush's current strategy is flawed.

Otherwise, they have widely disparate views about how ? and when ? to get out of Iraq, raising the question of whether the lack of a unified message could hinder Democratic efforts to turn Bush's woes and mounting public frustration about the war into liabilities for GOP candidates during congressional elections next fall.

"There simply is no party position on Iraq ... It's every man and woman for themselves," said Ross Baker, a political analyst at Rutgers University in New Jersey who closely monitors Congress.

Democrats say positions on the war are deeply personal and should be left up to individual lawmakers ? who represent districts and states that also have vastly differing views. But Democrats also don't have one standard-bearer to look to for direction, unlike the Republicans, who have the president.

GOP leaders in Congress have lined up behind Bush in rejecting a timetable for withdrawal. But some in their rank-and-file ? Sen. Chuck Hagel (news, bio, voting record) of Nebraska, for one ? have started challenging the administration on future U.S. involvement in Iraq.

Other Republicans are questioning the administration's path forward carefully and privately so they aren't perceived as crossing an administration known for demanding loyalty.

"There isn't a unified position in either political party on exactly what to do moving forward in Iraq," said Michael Feldman, a Democratic consultant in Washington. "This is a big and difficult and sticky issue. Lives are at stake."

Unlike the Republican fissures, Democratic differences have been prominently on display in recent weeks.

Pelosi, D-Calif., Wednesday endorsed a call by her top adviser on defense issues, the hawkish Rep. John Murtha (news, bio, voting record), D-Pa., for U.S. troops to begin pulling out of Iraq. He says all could be home in six months.

At the same time, Hoyer, D-Md., released a statement responding to a Bush speech on Iraq. It contradicted Pelosi, saying: "a precipitous withdrawal of American forces in Iraq could lead to disaster, spawning a civil war, fostering a haven for terrorists and damaging our nation's security and credibility."

Last month, Reid, D-Nev., sought to create a cohesive Senate Democratic position with a resolution calling on Bush to craft a plan for Iraq with estimated dates for the phased withdrawal of U.S. troops based on a host of conditions.

But Kerry, D-Mass., has rolled out his own plan to bring 20,000 troops home after Dec. 15 elections. Sen. Russ Feingold (news, bio, voting record), D-Wis., has proposed the military mission end by Dec. 31, 2006.

Other Democrats offered varying positions last week.

"The Iraqi people are in reach of a watershed transformation from the primitive, killing tyranny of Saddam to modern, self-governing, self-securing nationhood ? unless the great American military that has given them and us this unexpected opportunity is prematurely withdrawn," Sen.     Joe Lieberman, D-Conn., wrote in an opinion piece in The Wall Street Journal.

In a letter to constituents, Sen.     Hillary Rodham Clinton, D-N.Y., rejected an immediate pullout of troops, saying: "We must set reasonable goals to finish what we started and successfully turn over Iraqi security to Iraqis."

Democrats dismiss the notion that the lack of a unified party position on Iraq will hurt the party as it seeks to reclaim Congress in 2006.

"I think we all make a mistake if we think that the sole criteria in November of '06 is going to be the war," Pennsylvania Gov. Ed Rendell said Thursday on MSNBC's "Hardball With Chris Matthews."

Republican scandals and domestic troubles like high gasoline prices also will be on voters' minds, Democrats say.

Plus, said Bill Carrick, a Democratic strategist in California: "It is going to be a whole series of state and local elections where Iraq will play differently depending on which two candidates are running against each other."


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051203/ap_on_go_co/democrats_iraq

[SLCPUNK]

so you're accusing "ALL" of us of playing "bullshit games", and calling us "racist liars".

those are very strong insults. accusations i don't take lightly.

If I were just saying these things it might be one thing. But when your camp makes racists remarks, constantly lies, and plays kid games, it hardly is an insult.

It is the truth.

All anybody has to do is look at the post history of any of you guys to see this. Or just wait and you are bound to do it again.

[Axl_owns_dexter]

All anybody has to do is look at the post history of any of you guys to see this. Or just wait and you are bound to do it again.

I have seen both sides on this site deviate from intelligent discussion on many occasions.

[SLCPUNK]

I have seen both sides on this site deviate from intelligent discussion on many occasions.

I have never seen anybody from the left outright lie . Or continue to lie after proof of the contrary has been provided. Or make racist remarks. I have also never seen anybody from the left tell others what they would: think, do, act, and react in imaginary scenarios they create only to tear down.

[Booker Floyd]

I value Lieberman's opinion much more than Murtha since Liberman actually went there and has a first hand account to base his statement on.

So are you claiming that Murtha hasnt been to Iraq?

[Dr. Blutarsky]

I have seen both sides on this site deviate from intelligent discussion on many occasions.

I have never seen anybody from the left outright lie . Or continue to lie after proof of the contrary has been provided. Or make racist remarks. I have also never seen anybody from the left tell others what they would: think, do, act, and react in imaginary scenarios they create only to tear down.

What about Bill Clinton? He lied about Monica.

[Booker Floyd]

GnRFL, if you can...

So are you claiming that Murtha hasnt been to Iraq?

Great news, folks.? You can earn a billion dollars from the government...all you have to do is devise a plan for economic and social stabilization in 10 Iraqi cities*!? So break out the colored pencils and get to work!

*Number of cities subject to change

Its a good thing the government waited until now to start figuring this stuff out.

IRAQ: Strategic City Stabilization Initiative (SCSI)

[/url][/b]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

General Information


? ? ? ? ? ? ? Document Type: Grants Notice
? ? ? ? ? ? ? Funding Opportunity Number: RFA 267-06-001
? ? ? ? ? ? ? Posted Date: Nov 30, 2005
? ? ? ? ? ? ? Original Due Date for Applications: Jan 31, 2006
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?The Request for Application will be issued after
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?December 16, 2005
? ? ? ? ? ? ? Current Due Date for Applications: Jan 31, 2006
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?The Request for Application will be issued after
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?December 16, 2005
? ? ? ? ? ? ? Archive Date: Mar 02, 2006
? ? ? ? ? ? ? Funding Instrument Type: Cooperative Agreement
? ? ? ? ? ? ? Category of Funding Activity: Regional Development
? ? ? ? ? ? ? Expected Number of Awards: Not Available.
? ? ? ? ? ? ? Estimated Total Program Funding: $1,020,000,000.00
? ? ? ? ? ? ? Award Ceiling: $1,320,000,000.00
? ? ? ? ? ? ? Award Floor: $1,020,000,000.00
? ? ? ? ? ? ? CFDA Number: 98.001 -- USAID Foreign Assistance for Programs Overseas
? ? ? ? ? ? ? Cost Sharing or Matching Requirement: No

Eligible Applicants

? ? ? ? ? ? ? Unrestricted (i.e., open to any type of entity above), subject to any clarification in text? ? ? ? ? ? ?
? ? ? ? ? ? ? field entitled "Additional Information on Eligibility"
? ? ? ? ? ? ?
Agency Name

? ? ? ? ? ? ? Agency for International Development, Overseas Missions, Iraq (CPA) USAID-Baghdad

Description

? ? ? ? ? ? ? The United States Agency for International Development is seeking applications for an
? ? ? ? ? ? ? Assistance Agreement from qualified sources to design and implement a social and
? ? ? ? ? ? ? economic stabilization program impacting ten Strategic Cities, identified by the United
? ? ? ? ? ? ? States Government as critical to the defeat of the Insurgency in Iraq. The number of
? ? ? ? ? ? ? Strategic Cities may expand or contract over time. USAID plans to provide approximately
? ? ? ? ? ? ? $1,020,000,000 over two years to meet the objectives of the Program. An additional? ? ? ? ? ? ?
              option year may be considered amounting to $300 million at the discretion of USAID.
              Funds are not yet available for this program.

Link to Full Announcement

? ? ? ? ? ? ? IRAQ: Strategic City Stabilization Initiative (SCSI)

If you have difficulty accessing the full announcement electronically, please contact:

? ? ? ? ? ? ? Feurtado, Yvette, Contracting Officer, Phone 962-6-590-6477, Fax 962-6-590-6333,
? ? ? ? ? ? ? Email yfeurtado@usaid.gov? Feurtado, Yvette

[sandman]

so you're accusing "ALL" of us of playing "bullshit games", and calling us "racist liars".

those are very strong insults. accusations i don't take lightly.

If I were just saying these things it might be one thing. But when your camp makes racists remarks, constantly lies, and plays kid games, it hardly is an insult.

It is the truth.

All anybody has to do is look at the post history of any of you guys to see this. Or just wait and you are bound to do it again.

it's so pathetic you stand behind such asinine remarks. just admit you made a mistake. instead of insisting "it is the truth".

there are plenty of us on the right who have NEVER made racist remarks. (have fun looking through all my posts to find one.)

and accusing people of being racist is hurtful. so stop trying to damage the reputations of posters on this board when you have no fuckin basis to do so. 
 

[sandman]

I value Lieberman's opinion much more than Murtha since Liberman actually went there and has a first hand account to base his statement on.

So are you claiming that Murtha hasnt been to Iraq?

instead of playing these stupid games, please just tell us when murtha was last in iraq.

i'm interested in knowing that. thanks.

[sandman]

Nice! 

i think we all can agree this is good news.


Al-qaida #3 killed by CIA missle attack.

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan - The operational commander of al-Qaida and possibly the No. 3 official in the terrorist organization, Hamza Rabia, was killed early Thursday morning by a CIA missile attack on a safehouse in Pakistan, officials told NBC News.

Pakistan's president later confirmed the militant leader's death.

?Yes indeed, 200 percent. I think he was killed the day before yesterday if I?m not wrong,? President Pervez Musharraf told reporters as he arrived in Kuwait on an official visit on Saturday.

While Pakistani officials publicly said Rabia died in a blast caused by explosives stored in a house for bomb-making, officials speaking on condition of anonymity told NBC News he was killed by a CIA missile strike carried out by an unmanned Predator airplane.

Pakistan's government has always been reticent to admit that Predators are used in Pakistani airspace to hunt down al-Qaida operatives.

The sources told NBC News Rabia was one of five men killed at a safehouse located in the village of Asorai, in western Pakistan, near the town of Mirali. Information Minister Sheikh Rashid Ahmed said Rabia?s remains were identified via a DNA test.

Among those killed in the attack were two Pakistanis and three Arabs. The attacks were reportedly carried out between 1:45 a.m. and 2 a.m. local time on Thursday.

Local residents said that the men were killed by an unknown number of missiles fired by an unmanned Predator aircraft. The witnesses said that missile remnants bearing U.S. markings remain in the area. They also said they had heard six explosions, but it is uncertain how many of these were the result of missile attacks and how many may have been the result of the missiles detonating explosives inside the safehouse.

On Saturday, Pakistan?s Dawn newspaper, citing sources it did not identify, reported that the attack on a mud-walled home near Miran Shah may have been launched from two pilotless planes.

Associates from outside Pakistan retrieved the bodies of Rabia and two other foreigners and buried them in an unknown location, the report said.

The U.S. government confirmed that a missile attack took place, but would not confirm that Rabia was killed.

U.S. officials have said that Rabia succeeded Abu Faraj as operations chief. Rabia was brought into al-Qaida by Ayman al-Zawahiri, Osama bin Laden's No. 2. Like al-Zawahiri, Rabia is an Egyptian. U.S. officials have described him recently as "top-five al-Qaida" and, as one US official said on Friday, "killing him would be indeed a very big deal."

An intelligence official said U.S. help was involved in tracking Rabia down and ?eliminating the threat? that he embodied. That official also spoke on condition of anonymity because he is not authorized to speak to the media.

Rabia was the target of another Predator attack on Nov. 5, according to local Pakistani officials. During that strike, in the village of Mosaki, eight people were killed in what is now described as an unsuccessful attempt to kill Rabia. Local officials have told NBC News that the dead included the wife and children of the al-Qaida leader.

Both the village of Asorai, where Thursday's attack took place, and Mosaki, where the November attack took place, are within 45 minutes of the Pakistan-Afghanistan border. The area is a hiding place for top al-Qaida officials, according to U.S., Pakistani and Afghan officials.

However, officials said they have no clue on the whereabouts of al-Zawahri or Osama bin Laden.

Military officials have said hundreds of Arab, Afghan and Central Asian militants are in North and South Waziristan.

Pakistan ? a key ally of the United States in the war against terrorism ? has deployed thousands of troops in the area, fighting intense battles with militants and killing and capturing several of them.

source: msnbc.com

[Booker Floyd]

If Rabia is dead, then yes, thats good news. 

[Jamie]

It's good news as long as these people:

Among those killed in the attack were two Pakistanis and three Arabs. The attacks were reportedly carried out between 1:45 a.m. and 2 a.m. local time on Thursday.

weren't innocent civilians. I don't see why; if the US army had some sort of knowledge or certainty to where he was; couldn't have just sent one person in undercover to kill him or something. It's slightly wreckless aiming some big fuckin missile at his place of hiding, an action that could have killed many innocent people.