The Iraq / war on terror thread

[Booker Floyd]

I just posted this:

CHENEY: ?Well, what we now have that?s developed since you and I last talked, Tim, of course, was that report that?it?s been pretty well confirmed that [9/11 hijacker Mohammed Atta] did go to Prague and he did meet with a senior official of the Iraqi intelligence service in Czechoslovakia last April, several months before the attack.?

Yesterday, from NPRs Diane Rhem show:

I?ve seen Dick specifically say ?no? to the question asked ?is there a connection between Saddam Hussein and 9/11? because there isn?t a connection between Saddam Hussein and 9/11. So, if your caller is troubled, I guess I would just like to know more specifics.

Lying and confirming theres no link...what a valuable quote. 

[Dr. Blutarsky]

I think being too concerned with political correctness will cause a lot more damage than good.

[pilferk]

Two points:

1.? I don't care how much time goes by, my feelings regarding terrorists will not change.? I will not sympathize or chnage my reference to them for the sake of political correctness.? They don't deserve any better.

Except you said "just after 9/11".? Clearly, that's not true.?

And if you use the reference again, you'll once again find yourself unable to post...or so I suspect.? So, if you feel strongly about it's use, by all means, continue to do so.

2.? In jarmo's defense, it is very hard to ban someone permanently from an smf board.? He did not ban my account, only my ability to post.? My assumption is that he thought, maybe subconciously, that my offense wasn't worth a full banning.? Hell, there are no word horrible enough to describe terrorists.? Certainly 'towelhead' is about the least offensive of the possible terms.

jarmo knew, pretty much from day one, you had returned.? Had he wanted to, he could have banned you again. I'm not bashing him for letting you come back.? I'm simply pointing out he did LET you come back....oh unfairly treated one.

Does this offend you pilferk?? Does the use of bad words to describe mass murderers offend you?? Wouyld you prefer political correctness?? Shit man, they are mass murderers...they don't deserve your liberals' political correctness.

No, I prefer not using terms that are widely disparaging to a large group of people.? I wouldn't call any black person a nigger, criminal or not.? I wouldn't call any person of Asian decent a "chink" or "gook", no matter what their crime.? Because the term is used for a LARGE group of people, not a narrow minority...and that large group, in context or not, would find the term offensive.

As for the article above....instead of asking him to prove it....since it was a contention of the Bush administration all along....why don't you disprove it.? Doesn't it make more sense that there would be some kind of connection between al qaeda and Iraq (who both hate America)?? I would tend to think there had been some understanding between the two, as was contended by the Bush administration.? I have seen nothing all that convincing to disprove it.

See, that goes right back to "I'm not going to educate him anymore".? He made the assertion.? The onus is on him to prove it.? It's a standard method of debate.? ?Of course, it's one you guys HATE because, over and over again I call you on this stuff, and over and over again you can't provide proof.? Convenient, eh?

As for seeing nothing all that convincing to disprove it...well, you haven't looked very hard.

[pilferk]

I think being too concerned with political correctness will cause a lot more damage than good.

And I think randomly throwing around racial epithets is irresponsible and counterproductive.

[Dr. Blutarsky]

I think being too concerned with political correctness will cause a lot more damage than good.

And I think randomly throwing around racial epithets is irresponsible and counterproductive.

Lighten up. I'm not suggesting we all should make an effort to use racial slurs now. Or as you would say racial epithets since it is more PC.

[Surfrider]

No hype needed: Saddam, al-Qaida linked

By Victor Davis Hanson
 
?

1) Can you provide a direct link to the article.

2) Some of the claims and correlations made in the article I've seen directly refuted (which is one of the reasons I'm asking for a link..I'm wondering what the timing is on the article).

As an example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ansar_al-Islam
?
There's lots of other refutations of the connection, as well...this was just the most obvious to find.? There's other points that the author brings up as fact that are not quite such, and are hotly contested.

http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051125/OPINION03/511250311/1110/OPINION

It's an opinion piece.  You may be correct.  Just thought I would post it anyway to get some opposing views in.  I have been darn busy lately, so I definately don't have time to fact check the piece.  I will take your word for it though Pilferk.

[Surfrider]

No hype needed: Saddam, al-Qaida linked

By Victor Davis Hanson
 
?

1) Can you provide a direct link to the article.

Check Snopes........

You guys, especially GNRNIGHTTRAIN always post these articles from right wing websites the refuse to put the link up. If you post the article, why do you hide where it came from?

Call me what ever you want, it doesn't bother me.? It's your typical attack of the author instead of the substance.? I actually usually post the link when I post articles.? I prefer actually reading an article that was pasted than clicking a link and reading the article.? Thus, I usually attempt to paste articles myself instead of just posting links.? In doing so, I sometimes forget to post the link.? I do find it funny that you talk about posting articles from right wing sites.? Been to moveon.org, mediamatters.com lately SLC?

[BigCombo]

Does anyone believe all the US troops will ever leave Iraq? ?If Iraq somehow turns into a stable self-reliant nation, will the US still station troops there (ala Japan, Korea, & Germany, and Kuwait). ? I'm gonna argue that either the troops will all be pulled within 5 years or there'll be American boots on the ground there for the next 50 years.

[Charity Case]

There will be US troops in Iraq for 50 years, no question.  It will be a small group hopefully, but we will have a base there...no question.  Maybe its just that crazy conservative propaganda, but I'm starting to see a ton on positive news articles regarding Iraq.  It seems that the news has gone from dismal to encouraging pretty quickly.  I wonder why that is? 

Pilferk, I'm not sure if you have ever run an smf board, but it is very hard to ban someone permanently.  You have three avenues for banning:

1.  by email

2.  by ip

3.  by name

Any of those 3 things can be changed in a heartbeat to gain entry back unless someone wants to ban an entire subnet which would ban a ton of people for no reason.

Now I am thankful that I haven't been continually banned because that would be a hassle.  On the other hand I don't think I have posted anything that would be worth banning me over (hell I don't think I should have been banned the 1st time), but then again it is not my call.

[sandman]

There will be US troops in Iraq for 50 years, no question.? It will be a small group hopefully, but we will have a base there...no question.? Maybe its just that crazy conservative propaganda, but I'm starting to see a ton on positive news articles regarding Iraq.? It seems that the news has gone from dismal to encouraging pretty quickly.? I wonder why that is??

i agree. AND bush's approval rating is up 6 points.

 - two successful elections this year, on Jan. 30 and Oct. 15, in which most Iraqis who showed up braved insurgent threats to vote.

- upcoming election on dec. 15.

- Iraqi economy - per-capita income has doubled since 2003 and is now 30 percent higher than before the war.

-  Iraqi economy is projected to grow 16.8% next year.

- Five times more cars are on the streets than in Saddam Hussein's day.

- Five times more telephone subscribers.

- Thirty-two times more Internet users.

- 44 commercial TV stations, 72 radio stations, and 100-plus newspapers.

[pilferk]

http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051125/OPINION03/511250311/1110/OPINION

It's an opinion piece.? You may be correct.? Just thought I would post it anyway to get some opposing views in.? I have been darn busy lately, so I definately don't have time to fact check the piece.? I will take your word for it though Pilferk.

Interesting, I'm surprised by how recent it is, all things considered.

FYI, Hanson is an affirmed neoconservative, a frequent contributor to The National Review, and has been a conservative pundit and "mouthpiece" for quite some time. ?The war on terror more or less made him a rich man, too (His book, Carnage and Culture, really didn't sell all that well until just after 9/11).

His piece isn't all that surprising, nor compelling, all things considered (at least not for me). ?Still, I find it strange he would regurgitate "facts" that have been called into question and bring up incidents that have been covered and discredited by other evidence.

[Surfrider]

http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051125/OPINION03/511250311/1110/OPINION

It's an opinion piece.? You may be correct.? Just thought I would post it anyway to get some opposing views in.? I have been darn busy lately, so I definately don't have time to fact check the piece.? I will take your word for it though Pilferk.

Interesting, I'm surprised by how recent it is, all things considered.

FYI, Hanson is an affirmed neoconservative, a frequent contributor to The National Review, and has been a conservative pundit and "mouthpiece" for quite some time. ?The war on terror more or less made him a rich man, too (His book, Carnage and Culture, really didn't sell all that well until just after 9/11).

His piece isn't all that surprising, nor compelling, all things considered (at least not for me). ?Still, I find it strange he would regurgitate "facts" that have been called into question and bring up incidents that have been covered and discredited by other evidence.

Yeah, I know Hanson's a staunch conservative.  However, that doesn't mean he is necessarily wrong.  Sometimes it takes someone that believes in a position in order to lay out the arguments for the position. 

[pilferk]

i agree. AND bush's approval rating is up 6 points.

 

Gas prices falling about 30 cents this month I'm sure have helped bolster his ratings. ?As has the better than expected consumer confidence.

They're saying it could be temporary, though, and a result of his speech the other day:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,177333,00.html

[pilferk]

http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051125/OPINION03/511250311/1110/OPINION

It's an opinion piece.? You may be correct.? Just thought I would post it anyway to get some opposing views in.? I have been darn busy lately, so I definately don't have time to fact check the piece.? I will take your word for it though Pilferk.

Interesting, I'm surprised by how recent it is, all things considered.

FYI, Hanson is an affirmed neoconservative, a frequent contributor to The National Review, and has been a conservative pundit and "mouthpiece" for quite some time. ?The war on terror more or less made him a rich man, too (His book, Carnage and Culture, really didn't sell all that well until just after 9/11).

His piece isn't all that surprising, nor compelling, all things considered (at least not for me). ?Still, I find it strange he would regurgitate "facts" that have been called into question and bring up incidents that have been covered and discredited by other evidence.

Yeah, I know Hanson's a staunch conservative.? However, that doesn't mean he is necessarily wrong.? Sometimes it takes someone that believes in a position in order to lay out the arguments for the position.?

For sure, it doesn't mean he's wrong.? Sandman's earlier article on the U.S. Military is a prime example of that.? That article has some interesting points in it, though it draws some corellations and conclusions that I think are a bit shaky.? The facts it gives are food for thought, though.

For Hanson, though, it sure colors what he's saying.? That, and given the "facts" he cites and I, at least, just can't take him too seriously.

[sandman]

i agree. AND bush's approval rating is up 6 points.

 

Gas prices falling about 30 cents this month I'm sure have helped bolster his ratings. ?As has the better than expected consumer confidence.

They're saying it could be temporary, though, and a result of his speech the other day:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,177333,00.html

30 cents?? they're down more than a dollar where i live.

naturally a 6 point bump is due to several factors....all economic indicators have been positive. but the accomplishments in iraq are one of those factors.

it's quite telling when positive opinion pieces are popping up in the LA times, which is read by millions.

[pilferk]

30 cents?? they're down more than a dollar where i live.

naturally a 6 point bump is due to several factors....all economic indicators have been positive. but the accomplishments in iraq are one of those factors.

it's quite telling when positive opinion pieces are popping up in the LA times, which is read by millions.

Gas prices are down about a dollar since their high point here, and they said on the news tonight they've come down, on a national average, 30 cents in since November 1st.

We'll have to wait for the newsweek poll to see if the Iraq numbers come up.? Early rumblings are that they haven't changed, but until the final poll comes out, we won't know for sure.

On the times opinion piece...is it online?? I haven't seen it.? The only one I've seen is this one:

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/editorials/la-ed-iraq1dec01,0,5956031.story?coll=la-news-comment-editorials

Not what I would call "positive" so you must be referring to a different one...I'd like to read it if it's on their site.

[sandman]

30 cents?? they're down more than a dollar where i live.

naturally a 6 point bump is due to several factors....all economic indicators have been positive. but the accomplishments in iraq are one of those factors.

it's quite telling when positive opinion pieces are popping up in the LA times, which is read by millions.

Gas prices are down about a dollar since their high point here, and they said on the news tonight they've come down, on a national average, 30 cents in since November 1st.

We'll have to wait for the newsweek poll to see if the Iraq numbers come up.? Early rumblings are that they haven't changed, but until the final poll comes out, we won't know for sure.

On the times opinion piece...is it online?? I haven't seen it.? The only one I've seen is this one:

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/editorials/la-ed-iraq1dec01,0,5956031.story?coll=la-news-comment-editorials

Not what I would call "positive" so you must be referring to a different one...I'd like to read it if it's on their site.

when you first said 30 cents, i thought you meant total decrease to date. yeah, 30 cent drop in november, about a dollar since mid october.

the article i posted a page or so back was from the LA Times. max boot.

   

[SLCPUNK]

1.  I don't care how much time goes by, my feelings regarding terrorists will not change.  I will not sympathize or chnage my reference to them for the sake of political correctness.  They don't deserve any better.

2.  In jarmo's defense, it is very hard to ban someone permanently from an smf board.  He did not ban my account, only my ability to post.  My assumption is that he thought, maybe subconciously, that my offense wasn't worth a full banning.  Hell, there are no word horrible enough to describe terrorists.  Certainly 'towelhead' is about the least offensive of the possible terms.

One point:

There you go lying again, you liar.

You weren't just calling the terrorist towel heads. You were calling all arabs towelheads, including the guy who ran the store around the corner. You speak with nothing but hate for arabs and muslims. Going on and on about how useless they are as a race, how they smell, how you wouldn't care if the entire middle east was blown up.

Such a liar you are.........

What are they?  Of course they are Arabs.  And if you have another name for them, then my point still stands.  They are in the middle east and also have nothing to contribute to the world unless you count BO as a contribution.  Man we have a convenient store down the street owned by Iranians and they have to be ranked as the smelliest people ever.



Talk about hypocritical people.  Axl even goes beyond my comments and slurs all immigrants and blacks and fags.  But, in your eyes, thats better than me asking if Arabs have anything to offer mankind.

I was just asking if they had anything to offer the world is all.  I don't need an excuse to blow up the middle east because I have no means by which to do that.  However, I think if the middle east were to disappear altogether we, as a planet, wouldn't miss too much from that region and in fact things would probably be a hell of a lot less chaotic on the international level.  Harsh words for bleeding hearts to hear I know.   

Call me racists if you want.  I could care less.  People called Axl a racist for years (still do) and he cared about that about as much as I do because he knew where he was coming from, same with me.  Fact is that I don't care one iota about the Arabs or for the Arabs.    Their way of life sucks and their ignorance is at the root of it all.  Who is to blame for that?  Who cares. 

Some of you are so compassionate I could cry.   

 I could care less whether you or anyone thinks its right.  I, unlike some of you, am not a bleeding heart liberal.  I don't carry compassion for terrorists or the stupid.  I want someone here, anyone, to post one goddamn thing we have to be thankful for from the Middle East over the past 100 years.  Just one.  And saying the Amazon Indian's didn't contribute 3000 years ago isn't a good argument for the lack of any redeeming value from the Middle East in 2004. 

I guess we can safely say at this point that no one taking part in this discussion knows of one single thing of value that we have to thank the Middle East for. 

-TyRod

So far I count zero things for which we have the Arabs to be thankful for unless you consider terrorist an invention worth mentioning.  Coem on people.  They must have invented a good food.  Anyone been to a good Iranian restaurant lately?   

-TyRod-

[SLCPUNK]

Call me what ever you want, it doesn't bother me.  It's your typical attack of the author instead of the substance.  I actually usually post the link when I post articles.  I prefer actually reading an article that was pasted than clicking a link and reading the article.  Thus, I usually attempt to paste articles myself instead of just posting links.  In doing so, I sometimes forget to post the link.  I do find it funny that you talk about posting articles from right wing sites.  Been to moveon.org, mediamatters.com lately SLC?

What attack? You run away as GNRNIGHTTRAIN. Then come back as BR, but this time you are a bit more moderate and are critical of Bush from time to time. Couldn't you just be man enough to admit some of the things you were supporting were wrong before? You had to save face and come back under a new ID?

After coming back you use the exact same style of attacks as you did as GNRNT. Often times using the exact same lines and questions you presented under your first ID. You discuss law topics at great length as he did (or should I say: as you did) before, and argue the same points as you did before. To top it off your IP shows the same location as you claimed to live before.

All you guys seem to have the same pattern........Also reminds me of Holy War. He made a big stink out of not being from Utah, then when he came to my site, his ID showed Utah-lol. You guys are all the same, a big bunch of liars, who hate the truth so much, you'd rather come back as somebody else not to face it. The ironic thing is that by coming back to "start new" you have to continue to lie the entire time. So nothing is new, only worse, and anybody who can go on lying in such a way clearly embodies guilt and some other issues they refuse to address.

As far as throwing out the left wing sites when your bullshit is uncovered I will say one last time: Unless it is an opinion piece, I always use mainstream news sources. CNN, Reuters, BBC, etc to make my point against Bush?s illegal and immoral war. You can play the "you do it too" game, but in reality, it is just another one of your unending lies. You and the rest of your bunch all lie. It is no wonder you continue to support a liar and murderer who has dropped bombs in the homes of children as they sleep. The only way to make yourself feel ok with that is to lie. No human being can look in the mirror and condone that type of violence against innocent civilians without finding a lie to justify it.

[SLCPUNK]

Does anyone believe all the US troops will ever leave Iraq?  If Iraq somehow turns into a stable self-reliant nation, will the US still station troops there (ala Japan, Korea, & Germany, and Kuwait).   I'm gonna argue that either the troops will all be pulled within 5 years or there'll be American boots on the ground there for the next 50 years.

Americas plan was never to leave. It was to stay with the oil. They have permanant bases set up there. They WILL NEVER LEAVE.

But guess what? Other countries are pulling out:

(AP-Please note source right wing fascists)

VIENNA, Austria - Two of America's allies in
Iraq are withdrawing forces this month and a half-dozen others are debating possible pullouts or reductions, increasing pressure on Washington as calls mount to bring home U.S. troops.

Bulgaria and Ukraine will begin withdrawing their combined 1,250 troops by mid-December. If Australia, Britain, Italy, Japan, Poland and
South Korea reduce or recall their personnel, more than half of the non-American forces in Iraq could be gone by next summer.

Japan and South Korea help with reconstruction, but Britain and Australia provide substantial support forces and Italy and Poland train Iraqi troops and police. Their exodus would deal a blow to American efforts to prepare Iraqis to take over the most dangerous peacekeeping tasks and craft an eventual U.S. exit strategy.

"The vibrations of unease from within the United States clearly have an impact on public opinion elsewhere," said Terence Taylor of the International Institute for Strategic Studies in Washington. "Public opinion in many of these countries is heavily divided."

Although the nearly 160,000-member U.S. force in Iraq dwarfs the second-largest contingent ? Britain's 8,000 in Iraq and 2,000 elsewhere in the Gulf region ? its support has shrunk substantially.

In the months after the March 2003 invasion, the multinational force numbered about 300,000 soldiers from 38 countries. That figure is now just under 24,000 mostly non-combat personnel from 27 countries. The coalition has steadily unraveled as the death toll rises and angry publics clamor for troops to leave.

In the spring, the Netherlands had 1,400 troops in Iraq. Today, there are 19, including a lone Dutch soldier in Baghdad.

Ukraine's remaining 876 troops in Iraq are due home by Dec. 31, fulfilling a campaign pledge by President Viktor Yushchenko. Bulgaria is pulling out its 380 troops after Dec. 15 parliamentary elections, Defense Minister Veselin Bliznakov said.

In his strategy for Iraq, announced Wednesday,
President Bush said expanding international support was one of his goals. He also seemed to address the issue of more allies withdrawing.

"As our posture changes over time, so too will the posture of our coalition partners," the document says. "We and the Iraqis must work with them to coordinate our efforts, helping Iraq to consolidate and secure its gains on many different fronts."

Struggling to shore up the coalition, Bush stopped in Mongolia on his recent Asia trip and praised its force of about 120 soldiers in Iraq as "fearless warriors."

At least 2,109 U.S. service personnel have died since the beginning of the Iraq war, according to an Associated Press count. At least 200 troops from other countries also have died, including 98 from Britain. Other tolls: Italy, 27; Ukraine, 18; Poland, 17; Bulgaria, 13; Spain, 11; Slovakia, three; Denmark,
El Salvador, Estonia, Netherlands, Thailand, two each; Hungary, Kazakhstan, Latvia, one each.

Underscoring mounting opposition in nearly all coalition countries, a poll published in Japan's Asahi newspaper this week showed 69 percent of respondents opposed extending the mission, up from 55 percent in January. No margin of error was given.

Japan's Kyodo News service reported Wednesday that Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi's Cabinet would decide Dec. 8 to allow its 600 troops to stay for another year, but it could decide later to withdraw troops around May.

A British drawdown would be the most dramatic.

Although Prime Minister
Tony Blair's government insists there is no timetable and British forces will leave only when Iraqi troops can take over, Defense Secretary John Reid suggested last month that a pullout could begin "in the course of the next year."

South Korea, the second-largest coalition partner after Britain, is expected to withdraw about 1,000 of its 3,200 troops in the first half of 2006. The National Assembly is likely to vote on the matter this month.

Italy's military reportedly is preparing to give parliament a timetable for a proposed withdrawal of its 2,800 troops. Premier Silvio Berlusconi's government has said it plans to withdraw forces in groups of 300, but in accordance with the Iraqi government and coalition allies.

Poland's former leftist government, which lost Sept. 25 elections, had planned to withdraw its 1,400 troops in January. The new defense minister, Radek Sikorski, visits Washington this weekend for talks on Poland's coalition plans, and the new government is expected to decide by mid-December whether to extend its mission beyond Dec. 31.

"Some formula of advisory-stabilizing mission could remain on a smaller scale, of course, and our commanders are prepared for several variants," Col. Zdzislaw Gnatowski of the Polish army's general staff told The Associated Press.

Air Chief Marshal Angus Houston, head of the Australian Defense Force, has said about 450 troops in the southern province of Muthanna could leave by May. Australia has about 900 troops and support staff across Iraq.

Many coalition members have pledged to stay in Iraq for all of 2006; at least one, Lithuania, has committed to the end of 2007. And the coalition is still drawing new members, most recently Bosnia, which sent 36 bomb-disposal experts in June.

"We are getting letters of gratitude from the U.S. commanders for our peacekeepers' excellent service," said Ilgar Verdiyev, a Defense Ministry spokesman in Azerbaijan, which has 150 troops in Iraq and is one of the few mostly Muslim countries to contribute.