The Iraq / war on terror thread

[axls_locomotive]

You mean the same guy who said these things? check out http://www.dubyaspeak.com/

are you just trying to say that hes an idiot? or hes said dumb things? that has nothing to do with culture,...

if he cant string a sentence together and he thinks there is an ocean separating canada and mexico then i fail to see how he can have the ability to grasp someones culture

You obviously dont have the intellectual capacity to get it

must be hard being as smart as you are...

I have never claimed to be smart, go to slashdot.org, plenty of posters well above my head, some are still bigoted even though hey are smart

Wow what a great comeback

a great comeback to your stupid comment..

failure to grasp the sarcasm eh

Well you obviously havent read the article, there is still doubt as to whether it was the Iranians or the Iraqis who gassed the Kurds, I think that's a pretty big question mark

a doubt into whos mind?? you and I know who gassed them.. and EVEN if... the fact that you trying to guess what COUNTRY gassed them even more backs up my statement that the place is a shit hole...

show me the evidence that supports the facts that Saddam gassed the Kurds, until then I will not commit to any judgement

Nope not America, the American governments yes, you dont hand a gun to a known murderer, that's an analogy btw, I also blame the corporations who sold those weapons and the countries who let those weapons be sold to people they knew to be dictators.

Ok all american goverments fault? Its our fault? So if a gun store owner sells you a gun and you shoot someone is it the gun stores fault?? another analogy i know is that "Your responsible for your own actions"

if he sells to a known murderer then yes he is at fault, and theres no doubt that the person that uses it is responsible yes

Saudi Arabia has one of the best medical care systems in the world
the new formula 1 track in bahrain http://www.newarabia.net/pictures/formulaone/picture2.jpg
dubai has the largest hotel in the world built on an artificial island, not to mention the amazing architecture that is displayed right across the middle east
there is also a lot of trade between the middle east and the rest of the world, more than you may realise
saudi arabia's low crime rate

I said list 5 things they have contributed to the world... a Formula 1 track in bahrain or a large hotel in the fucking desert doesnt  contribute to the world.. neither does the crime rate of Saudi Arabia...
Of course they have low crime rates.. They cut your fucking hand off for stealing...

oh sorry what are your criteria for judging? by individual? by country? scientific achievements, cultural achievements? btw anything that didnt exist before it was created is contributing to the world no matter how else you see it

You say that like it happens with everyone, there have only been a very small percentage of people who have strapped bombs to children,

But it still happens frequently enough that you and I have heard about it...

if it happened a lot more frequently people would get bored of it in the news and the viewers would find something else that is new news, it doesnt happen frequently enough for  them to be removed from the major news headlines

a bit harsh to judge the whole middle east on some extremists,

its a bit harsh to crash planes into skyscrpers for some shit called Allah that most of dont care about anyways...

yep and that those people are in a small minority

most are adults believing they are doing the right thing

who? the extriemest? why would you sympathize with them?

no sympathy here, i was simply stating it from their point of view

i could probably show you people throwing rocks at each other from virtually every country in the world if i had time,

while your at it  show me people strapping bombs to children, cutting out clittorises, gassing, Rape "shame" victims, from virtually every country in the world if you have time and  ill concide that the middle east is not a shit hole..

rape shame victims, yes i forgot about that, you will find plenty of people in other countries who show shame to people who are raped, cutting out clitorises, yes it happens in many africa countries also...btw strapping bombs to children, it hasnt happened that often, it has happened in Palestine too but that comes as a sign of desperation against israel who just happens to have superior weaponry hmmm

thats just ignorance on your part, you are labelling everyone with the same tag

no im not....im labeling an area of the world...there are individual people over there sure....

You still dont get it

what you are talking about is cultural differences in those other cases...

you call rape"shame" victims,  Forced marriages, State run media, gassing other people, terrorism
a cultural difference?? no i hope your smarter than that..

yep i call them cultural differences...terrorism, no but terrorism has happened in many countries for many years before 9/11, just like msifit said, groups in the USA were financing Irish terrorism...and state run media, thats a three edged sword, their side, your side and the truth, i see plenty of the first 2 in USA media but the truth is another matter, it is lying in a dark corner...if you like to know that much of the middle east has access to the internet btw and also the BBC world service

btw have you forgotten that other countries also execute people, not very humane? or is it?

other countries dont do the above mentioned ...

im not the one who is ignorant of other cultures

nobody said you were...
yawn

[Miz]

Why do the government not ban fast food, alcohol etc and not promote healthy living by doing what's right for people?  Because of $ and ?.

noooooo  coz its my right to fuck myself up if i want too ..If any goverment did what you have just suggested they would be called Dictators..

Oh right...so all these all the European, American, Asian, Australasian etc.. leaders are dictators for making Heroin and Cocaine and all the other fucking drugs illegal?  Yeah, lets let people do ANYTHING they want.  Oh wait...then you'd have to stay out of Iraq and respect other people's religions.  But you wouldn't have to, because you're allowed to do what ever the fuck you want.  You're not gonna be ruled by some dictator who won't allow you Heroin...

maybe because some of these products, especially the ones that effect your health in the long run, contain addictive chemicals

And in our country people become aware of such things, because people do studies and print them in the thousands of magazines and papers that we have across the US.  If people still make stupid decisions despite knowing, then thats their fault.  If companies deliberately deceive then they get sued.

Ohh because suing coca-cola for misadvertising is gonna help a lot.  Because, John Q. public has enough money to take on a multi-national corporation with more lawyers and money than there are people in the world.
So people are aware of the poisenous stuff that's put in our food, so that makes it ok?

[axls_locomotive]

The reason why people are against it is because of poor working conditions, people treated like slave labour because of lack of laws, poor quality machinery, children working in sweat shops...and while these companies obey employment laws in countries of the west while blatantly disregarding the health of the workforces in other countries.  You make it out as if this is such a good thing for them.

Well Im not saying that its a great situation.  Im just saying its better than any alternative.  You start a campaign to end slave labor in these places, and you will starve the people to death.  These people just do not have the productivity of eurpeans or americans, so if you make it too expensive to do business there they will go back to europe or america.  Flat out economics.
imo that is exploitation, and i doubt ill convince you, i wouldnt expose children to anything like that, thats practices outlawed in my country for the last 150-200 years

Ill make a guess that you dont walk to work everyday or everywhere you go.  That public transporation or automobiles sure are useful arent they?  So is that electricity that your on the internet with, or that plastic that your computer is made out of.  

I sure hope you arent thinking that USA invented the computer and the automobile, you would be wrong in both cases.

Never said they did, its just easy to bash western culture until you realize that you cant live without this stuff.  Its just like the hollywood left that who complain about suv's, but then dont realize that their private jets or limosines are ten times worse.  

i was just teasing ya

I think he was just using that as an example, plenty of companies exist,
RIAA and othe record companies who advertise dross music by the bucketload and proclaim they are the next sensation, look how many people think they are good because they are told by these companies they are good

Simple supply and demand, if there was no market for it, companies wouldnt sell it.

does that make it right though?  I personally have given up on the music industry. Companies are preying on idiots buying much of that pop shit, there used to be some great pop artists but now look at it, so much sexual imagery that you would think they have a problem getting it up

how many people in the west would sacrifice themselves to save others?  that is what they believe they are doing, that is their belief that they will go to heaven or wherever if they perform such a selfless deed...that is their religion and you or no one else has any right to tell them elsewise, or dont you believe in freedom of choice?

That is why they are barbaric.  I do believe in freedom of choice, but not if that choice takes the lives away from others.  Just because you believe in free choice doesnt mean you believe in giving someone the free choice to murder someone if they want to.  Its not that hard to figure out the distinction.

yes but isnt that what armies do anyway? they risk their lives, they kill people and some get killed

maybe because some of these products, especially the ones that effect your health in the long run, contain addictive chemicals

And in our country people become aware of such things, because people do studies and print them in the thousands of magazines and papers that we have across the US.  If people still make stupid decisions despite knowing, then thats their fault.  If companies deliberately deceive then they get sued.
who has got time to read though masses upon masses of articles, information overload, most people dont know how much salt is in their food never mind the millions of weird chemicals that exist

[axls_locomotive]

Well you obviously havent read the article, there is still doubt as to whether it was the Iranians or the Iraqis who gassed the Kurds, I think that's a pretty big question mark

I dont understand how whether it was iran or iraq affects Kockstar's argument?

he said Saddam was responsible, i was merely pointing out that that isnt exactly a solid statement
Nope not America, the American governments yes, you dont hand a gun to a known murderer, that's an analogy btw, I also blame the corporations who sold those weapons and the countries who let those weapons be sold to people they knew to be dictators.

Fair enough, it was  mistake.  But war makes strange bedfellows.  Some will probably argue that we shouldnt have teamed up with Stalin in WWII, but who would have known in hindsight.
yes but those were 2 different situations, going with stalin was out of necessity, influencing a war that you are no part of is another matter

I dont judge anyone by their value or what they have contributed, it is not a requirement for living but hey if you want 5 ill give you 5

saudi arabia's low crime rate

Do you realize why Saudi Arabia has such a low crime rate?  Cause if you steal you get your hand cut off.  They have the most severe penalties for the smallest crimes.  You certainly dont advocate such criminal penalties do you?
i certainly dont advocate it, but i do advocate much harsher sentencing for all criminals, especially teenagers who get off lightly more than not, the law should act as a deterrent and if crime levels are increasing then the law as it stands is not a deterrent

[axls_locomotive]

I wouldn't be surprised if another 9/11 would happen in the US just before the elections...Al Qaeda thinking it would lead the people to vote against Bush...but that's not how things work in the US. That would lead people to vote for Bush, thinking he could protect them. If that happens, the new administration will waste billions of dollars in wars and weapons trying to find a scapegoat, when the problem is far more complicated than that...

Your 100% correct, if Al Qaeda tries to attack to sway the election, Americans wont go hide under the table.

i guess this qualifies as anti-european talk too...

oh this is the "your either with us or against us" attitude...how blase and ignorant

[Will]

Your 100% correct, if Al Qaeda tries to attack to sway the election, Americans wont go hide under the table.

This is a good way to try to divert my post, everyone knows I was not saying that, because I respect the spanish people for their action. They voted against a government who tried to lie to them for two days, when their intelligence services knew the ETA was not behind the attacks.
Does "not going hide under the table" mean invading a country that didn't attack you or any of your allies? The main point is that the American people usually are behind their President and do not criticize him (or they would be treated as "unpatriotic"). The spanish people were not afraid of voting against the one that lied to them in their face for two days, hiding the truth. I respect that.

What is sad about US/ anti-US threads here is that we only see americans saying "the war in Iraq is a great thing", "President Bush is not afraid of attacking Al Qaeda", "Europeans are cowards", etc. I think that is sad because there is no american saying "yeah, the war might have been a mistake after all", "the government should have spent all that money creating jobs in the country", etc. Nope. I think it is sad because even though some US people I meet in "real" life think the same thing as the majority of US posters here, a good part of them think different, and that's really weird to me.

I don't like that "you're either with us or against us" attitude either, as Q mentioned, because that's exactly what Al Qaeda is taking advantage of. They divide us to strike us whenever they can. And Americans and Europeans are responsible for that, as I said countless times on this board, I hate the anti-American comments just as much as I hate the anti-European comments. That's a vicious circle: Americans on the board feel attacked by the critics against their government/ President, so they attack back, etc.

What I don't like is: why can't we admit our governments do mistakes? I mean, we all know nobody's perfect, governments fuck up things sometimes (like the last changes of ministers in France was a very bad idea in my opinion) but I'm surprised no one admits it. It's not like YOU made the mistake.

One last thing I have to ask to people who support the war in Iraq and Bush's foreing policy is: don't you think it would have been a better idea to spend all those billions for the US economy (meaning creating jobs for instance) and social benefits (affordable healthcare for more people) instead of spending them on the war in Iraq? That's not an attack or anything, I'm just very concerned about that (the healthcare issue completely blows my mind but that's another story) and would like to read any comments!

[Doc Emmett Brown]

What I don't like is: why can't we admit our governments do mistakes? I mean, we all know nobody's perfect, governments fuck up things sometimes (like the last changes of ministers in France was a very bad idea in my opinion) but I'm surprised no one admits it. It's not like YOU made the mistake.

Will,

Here's the problem - if you were President, and someone attacked your country, what would you do?   Give in to their demands?  Do we try the old Appeasement route taken by Chamberlain when he dealt with Hitler?  We all know how that turned out...

This situation is worse because Al Qaeda is not one single country - there are people in it from many nationalities.  I'm not suggesting we go bomb all of them, but we have to attack their hideouts.  

What surprises me is that people dont seem to remember how we treat the enemy in past wars/conflicts.  We have always vilified them:

WW2:  "The only good German is a dead German" - remember that one?  
Vietnam:  the "gooks"
Now:  "Oh, these filthy towel-heads are all animals"

So I am not surprised by the comments you see here, as well as the inevitable anti-Americanism.  

As I pointed out (but it got lost in this ridiculous flame war), there are plenty of Arabs who have left their home country in search of a better life.  And they have contributed greatly in all fields including science.  They have given us good things, and they continue to do so.
Unfortunately, their own countries are not in a position to have research universities because their governments are very restrictive.  If we can aid them in establishing a democratic government - how is that a bad thing?  

[kockstar99]

My comment is I enjoyed reading your 2 posts Will... I read them both a few times and agree with you. I wish i could post as eloqently as you do,  with out getting worked up and pissed off... Its somewhat calming to be able to reply and post what i feel about the topic with out having to fend off needless USA bashing or anti american posts..

You are correct that we dont take like when you make fun of our president.. sure he may say dumb things or make a mistake or two but bottom line is i truly belive that nobody goes to do a job to do poorly at it.. (thats why i get pissed at Paul Huge bashing as well)
So if he makes a mistake or says something dumb your more than welcome to step up and run against the man.. dont sit back and call him a fool for trying to do his job... ESP if your either an american who doesnt vote or a forigner whos comments on OUR goverment. Odds are you need to worry about your own goverment before you comment on mine... bottom line.. nobody is perfect and yes his job is alot harder than yours or mine you still should just walk a mile in his shoes.. its prob harder than you think..

I have arguments with my wife all the time when she says anti american things  being that she is a philippine citizen, when I hear anti american things from her i take it as disrespectfull to me and and in my mind i think  "well your country has a list of problems longer than mine does" Dont get me wrong i love her and her son to death but we both figured out that international relationships are prob harder than if we were both from the same country..

Ok ill take back some of my comments about the place being a shit hole coz when i read other stories about Iraqi kids forming metal bands and wanting to listen to Prong and Slayer and hanging posters of Metallica or Megadeath it makes it all good for me...

Rock n Roll has always been about rebelion and for those kids there that listen to those bands and hang posters of them and play "anit islamic" music in their homes is all good..

Those kids know more about rebelion than you or I or Axl Rose or the Crue, or any band do...

any rock n roll fan in the middle east or any part of the world is cool to me ...

Thats what gets me is dont bash us or the president.. we are not trying to deliberatly do a bad job and if you feel we are there is no need to kill us or hang us from a bridge for it....

Im gonna go listen to Civil War now!!!!

Thanks Will.....

[axls_locomotive]

My comment is I enjoyed reading your 2 posts Will... I read them both a few times and agree with you. I wish i could post as eloqently as you do,  with out getting worked up and pissed off... Its somewhat calming to be able to reply and post what i feel about the topic with out having to fend off needless USA bashing or anti american posts..

i am not or will ever be anti-american, anti-war yes, anti-terrorism yes, pro-life yes, pro-environment yes, pro-individual yes, pro-choice yes, anti-religion no, anti-bullshit yes, pro-technology yes, pro-equality yes

I was posting against your bigoted views, your pro-war, anti-equality, anti-islamic religion stance and your tendency to group others in with the same views, america has nothing to do with it

Ok ill take back some of my comments about the place being a shit hole coz when i read other stories about Iraqi kids forming metal bands and wanting to listen to Prong and Slayer and hanging posters of Metallica or Megadeath it makes it all good for me...

excellent, now that is a good thing, we agree on that for sure

[Ted Nugent]

You claim to be pro-life but if President Bush had listened to you then saddam hussein and his evil offspring would still be in power, murdered and torturing the people of iraq in a horrible nightmare with no end.  

The situation in iraq is for from perfect, there is some localised problems in certain cities due to the activities of terrorists but the people of iraq have a future now that is democratic and free and the activities of rabble rousers like sadr on the frige of one community will not derail this.

In a recent opinion poll carried out by an independant organisation 70% of iraqis were happy with the removal of saddam hussein.  

You claim to be anti-war.  Do you think we should have gone to war against germany or should we have done nothing and let him wipe out the rest of the jewish population of europe?  Did you also oppose miliary intevention in kosovo? kuwait? afghanistan?  

It's very easy to be anti-war and go on a little march with your little placard denoucing a murdering tyrant while at the same time doing nothing to stop innocent people being murdered, you can fool yourself into thinking that you've actually done something positive but the truth is that all those people who marched in anti-war demonstations were being used as pawns by saddam husseins propaganda machine.  It's a good thing for freedom loving people everywhere that president bush doesn't suffer from the lack of moral corage that so obviously afflicts you.

[Miz]

In a recent opinion poll carried out by an independant organisation 70% of iraqis were happy with the removal of saddam hussein.  

Do you think that the Shi-it armies take opinion polls?

You claim to be anti-war.  Do you think we should have gone to war against germany or should we have done nothing and let him wipe out the rest of the jewish population of europe?  Did you also oppose miliary intevention in kosovo? kuwait? afghanistan?  

I don't think he meant anti-every-single-war-ever.
Anyway, WWI and II are completely different situations.  Saddam was not trying to take over the world.  He did try and invade Iran but...oh wait...we sold him weapons...

It's very easy to be anti-war and go on a little march with your little placard denoucing a murdering tyrant while at the same time doing nothing to stop innocent people being murdered, you can fool yourself into thinking that you've actually done something positive but the truth is that all those people who marched in anti-war demonstations were being used as pawns by saddam husseins propaganda machine.  It's a good thing for freedom loving people everywhere that president bush doesn't suffer from the lack of moral corage that so obviously afflicts you.

See, you didn't sound quite so naive til I read this paragraph.  Saddam's propaganda machine?  Are you on crack?  What fuckings propaganda? Every single newspaper in the country except about two were saying that Saddam was a lunatic who had WMD's.
If by Saddanm's propaganda machine, you mean the UN weapons inspectors who didn't find a single thing that suggested they had any kind of WMD's then yes I was influenced by it.
Or maybe you mean the way he disposed of all his long range missiles when the US demanded it.  Well, again, i've been decieved by Saddam's true genius.

It's a good thing for freedom loving people everywhere that president bush doesn't suffer from the lack of moral corage that so obviously afflicts you.

I still cannot believe you said that.


President Bush and the word moral shouldn't be allowed in the same sentance unless moral is directly preceeded by the letters I-M.

Some people really do amaze me.  It's worrying.

[axls_locomotive]

You claim to be pro-life but if President Bush had listened to you then saddam hussein and his evil offspring would still be in power, murdered and torturing the people of iraq in a horrible nightmare with no end.  

And if bush (and blair) had listened to sensible people they would have done the right thing by rooting out al qaeda, indonesia, turkey and spain have all paid the price for going after saddam instead and how much more to come, and how many innocent people, including children, have been killed by the wars? they dont have any say anymore, what about the WMD? either they dont exist or they are in the hands of a terrorist organisation, and not to mention all the converts to these organisations, doesnt make me feel any safer...btw plenty or murder and torture happens around the world

The situation in iraq is for from perfect, there is some localised problems in certain cities due to the activities of terrorists but the people of iraq have a future now that is democratic and free and the activities of rabble rousers like sadr on the frige of one community will not derail this.

Democratic and free, you are deluding yourself, think in terms of reality, 100 or so random people were involved in mutilating the westerners in Iraq, nobody stopped them, how many more think like that?

In a recent opinion poll carried out by an independant organisation 70% of iraqis were happy with the removal of saddam hussein.  

You claim to be anti-war.  Do you think we should have gone to war against germany or should we have done nothing and let him wipe out the rest of the jewish population of europe?  Did you also oppose miliary intevention in kosovo? kuwait? afghanistan?  

Im not surprised, although i would be hard pressed to believe any poll taken in iraq just now btw 57% of americans think that bush doesnt have a clear plan for bringing the war to a successful conclusion...

yes anti-war until the there is a true threat, there is always a point where you have to fight, you are comparing completely different situations, WWII was a complete necessity

"Did you also oppose miliary intevention in kosovo? kuwait? afghanistan?  " no no and no

It's very easy to be anti-war and go on a little march with your little placard denoucing a murdering tyrant while at the same time doing nothing to stop innocent people being murdered, you can fool yourself into thinking that you've actually done something positive but the truth is that all those people who marched in anti-war demonstations were being used as pawns by saddam husseins propaganda machine.  It's a good thing for freedom loving people everywhere that president bush doesn't suffer from the lack of moral corage that so obviously afflicts you.

very dramatic bullshit

innocent people being murdered, easy to be on a high horse at halabja but when you sit there and watch and do nothing for years and years then you have no right to be on that high almightly stance, easy to be pious when 10, 000 were killed in that iraq war II, or when a hospital was bombed etc

please tell me how saddams propaganda reached me? now this i would really like to hear
btw did you really believe the story about that american soldier that was rescued? how many were taken in by that?
and i didnt i believe the iraqi information minister about how iraq was winning when american tanks were pointing a bazooka at his ass

I think for myself mate,

[joy_division]

Here's a couple of questions for the pro-war people here, especially kockstar99...

Do you think it's fair that the americans,

1) Installed Saddam Hussein to power as their puppet president?
   
2) Installed sanctions to Iraq that killed millions of civilians after Saddam
    refused to be a puppet?

3) Started two wars that pretty much crippled Iraq and left millions dead, again
    because Saddam refused to be a puppet anymore?

Now, talking about "bringing freedom to Iraq" is absolutely horseshit when the americans were the fuckers who messed up Iraq in the first place.

[DRUNK]

Here's a couple of questions for the pro-war people here, especially kockstar99...

Do you think it's fair that the americans,

1) Installed Saddam Hussein to power as their puppet president?
   
2) Installed sanctions to Iraq that killed millions of civilians after Saddam
    refused to be a puppet?

3) Started two wars that pretty much crippled Iraq and left millions dead, again
    because Saddam refused to be a puppet anymore?

Now, talking about "bringing freedom to Iraq" is absolutely horseshit when the americans were the fuckers who messed up Iraq in the first place.

 ::)It's not as simple as that.  You say it like America is responsible for everything.  Give me a fucking break.  America helps individuals, governments and countries all around the world. However, America isn't as directly involved as you think it is.

Also where is this "America left millions and millions of Iraq's dead" information?  You're misinformed.  

Iraq has been fucked up shithole forever.  

All of you watch and see.  Look in the history books.  George Bush is going to look like a hero and the Irag situation is going to be a success.  Sorry everybody.  You'll all be proven wrong and then you'll be kicking yourselves in the ass.

[LeftToDecay]

[Iraq has been fucked up shithole forever.  

Like prettymuch everything in your previous post, wrong.

Things were looking pretty damn good for Iraq  before Iran/Iraq war and thn sanctions.
Ba'ath is remembered only from dozens of atrocities it carried out, but they DID manage to provide a massive boost to Iraq's economy aswell.

After the party had violently  secured it's position in mid 60's, Ba'ath began to tweak Iraq's agriculture and industry.They carried out the natianalization of oil idustry.A country that had been 90% an agriculture a decade ago was industrializing. Fast.
Around mid 70's Hussein had already began turning Iraq into one large military camp but the amount of  income was massive enough to really have a visible effct for middleclass aswell. Iraqi felt rich. In west, Bassra was called "the Las Vegas of middle east".  In the eyes of  western world Iraq looked a lot like Saudi Arabia looks today.

Iran/Iraq war weakened  Iraq's economy and stopped the ultra-fast growth of GDP. Actual deathblow to country's economy was provided by sanctions. Wealthy middleclass disapeared.
Only during 90's did Iraq turn into a shithole.

check out
http://www.juancole.com/

[axls_locomotive]

[Iraq has been fucked up shithole forever.  

Like prettymuch everything in your previous post, wrong.

Things were looking pretty damn good for Iraq  before Iran/Iraq war and thn sanctions.
Ba'ath is remembered only from dozens of atrocities it carried out, but they DID manage to provide a massive boost to Iraq's economy aswell.

After the party had violently  secured it's position in mid 60's, Ba'ath began to tweak Iraq's agriculture and industry.They carried out the natianalization of oil idustry.A country that had been 90% an agriculture a decade ago was industrializing. Fast.
Around mid 70's Hussein had already began turning Iraq into one large military camp but the amount of  income was massive enough to really have a visible effct for middleclass aswell. Iraqi felt rich. In west, Bassra was called "the Las Vegas of middle east".  In the eyes of  western world Iraq looked a lot like Saudi Arabia looks today.

Iran/Iraq war weakened  Iraq's economy and stopped the ultra-fast growth of GDP. Actual deathblow to country's economy was provided by sanctions. Wealthy middleclass disapeared.
Only during 90's did Iraq turn into a shithole.

check out
http://www.juancole.com/

its good to see someone else who thinks with their head and not with the media and who is interested in the truth

DRUNK, you want to know what the sanctions did, a report from 1999, sanctions still hadnt been lifted, facts straight from the UN

Impact of the 9-Year Sanctions War on the People of Iraq

From UN Reports

    * Iraq "has experienced a shift from relative affluence to massive poverty. In marked contrast to the prevailing situation prior to the events of 1990-91, the infant mortality rates in Iraq today are among the highest in the world, low infant birth weight affects at least 23% of all births, chronic malnutrition affects every fourth child under five years of age, only 41% of the population have regular access to clean water, 83% of all schools need substantial repairs. The ICRC states that the Iraqi health-care system is today in a decrepit state. UNDP calculates that it would take 7 billion US dollars to rehabilitate the power sector country-wide to its 1990 capacity." - UN Report on the Current Humanitarian Situation in Iraq, submitted to the Security Council, March 1999
    * "The humanitarian situation in Iraq will continue to be a dire one in the absence of a sustained revival of the Iraqi economy, which in turn cannot be achieved solely through remedial humanitarian efforts." - UN Report on the Current Humanitarian Situation in Iraq, submitted to the Security Council, March 1999
    * "The increase in mortality reported in public hospitals for children under five years of age (an excess of some 40,000 deaths yearly compared with 1989) is mainly due to diarrhea, pneumonia and malnutrition. In those over five years of age, the increase (an excess of some 50,000 deaths yearly compared with 1989) is associated with heart disease, hypertension, diabetes, cancer, liver or kidney diseases." Approximately 250 people die every day in Iraq due to the effect of the sanctions. - UNICEF, April 1998.
    * "The Oil-for-Food plan has not yet resulted in adequate protection of Iraq's children from malnutrition/disease. Those children spared from death continue to remain deprived of essential rights addressed in the Convention of Rights of the Child." -- UNICEF, April 1998.
    * "32 percent of children under five, some 960,000 children are chronically malnourished - a rise of 72 percent since 1991. Almost one quarter (23%) are underweight - twice as high as the levels found in neighboring Jordan or Turkey." - UNICEF, November 1997.
    * "There is no sign of any improvement since Security Council Resolution 986/1111 ["Oil for Food"] came into force." - UNICEF, November 1997.
    * "One out of every 4 Iraqi infants is malnourished. ? Chronic malnutrition among children under five has reached 27.5%. After a child reaches two or three years of age, chronic malnutrition is difficult to reverse and damage on the child's development is likely to be permanent." UNICEF and World Food Programmed (WFP), May 1997
    * "Iraq's health system is close to collapse because medicines and other life-saving supplies scheduled for importation under the 'oil-for-food' deal have not arrived. ? Government drug warehouses and pharmacies have few stocks of medicines and medical supplies. The consequences of this situation are causing a near-breakdown of the health care system, which is reeling under the pressure of being deprived of medicine, other basic supplies and spare parts." World Health Organizations (WHO), February 1997.
    * "4,500 children under the age of 5 are dying each month from hunger and disease. ? The situation is disastrous for children. Many are living on the very margin of survival."-UNICEF, October 1996.
    * "Since the onset of sanctions, there has been a six-fold increase in the mortality rate for children under five and the majority of the country's population has been on a semi-starvation diet." - WHO, March 1996.
    * "Famine threatens four million people in sanctions-hit Iraq - one fifth of the population - following a poor grain harvest...The human situation is deteriorating. Living conditions are precarious and are at pre-famine level for at least four million people. ? The deterioration in nutritional status of children is reflected in the significant increase of child mortality, which has risen nearly fivefold since 1990." - UN FAO, September 1995.

    * "Alarming food shortages are causing irreparable damage to an entire generation of Iraqi children". - UN FAO and WFP, September 1995.

    * "Sanctions are inhibiting the importation of spare parts, chemicals, reagents, and the means of transportation required to provide water and sanitation services to the civilian population of Iraq. ? What has become increasingly clear is that no significant movement towards food security can be achieved so long as the embargo remains in place. All vital contributors to food availability - agricultural production, importation of foodstuffs, economic stability and income generation, are dependent on Iraq's ability to purchase and import those items vital to the survival of the civilian population." - UNICEF, 1995

http://www.rimbaud.freeserve.co.uk/factsheet2.html

[DRUNK]

Even with the sanctions, Saddam was still selling oil.  With that money, he could have taken care of his population.  Instead, he built palaces with gold bath tubs etc.  

[kockstar99]

This is my last post on this thread.. i get too upset reading you fucking idiots post shit... debate this...

2 hours before the 9/11 attack the old Iraqi Embassy to the United States in New York was insured by Llloyds of London ... This building had been uninsured for 13 years prior to 2 hours before the 9/11 attacks...

You debate this asshole...
dont try to draw me back into this thread coz im out.. its a waste of time to debate things with fucking idiots...

[kockstar99]

Oh one last mention...

Saddam was still selling oil..  When i was in the US Navy we intercepted his tankers daily sailing in iranian waters.. and confiscated and turned back the ships...  

we got maybe 4 or 5 a month if we were lucky... you can guess how many we didnt...

Debate on and tell everyon how its all our fault you fucking shit ...

[LeftToDecay]

2 hours before the 9/11 attack the old Iraqi Embassy to the United States in New York was insured by Llloyds of London

Those...fucking..BASTARDS!
They insured something in 9/11??We should definately nuke em all then, eh? Yeehaw.

Two dozen intelligence agencies all over the world(Israel,France,Egypt..) warned U.S about 9/11.Well, not about 9/11 per se  but in certain circles, it was something I have huge temptation to call "common knowledge"that Bin Laden is planning something really horrible plane related for east coast next september.
Yeah,I wouldn't be suprised  at all if Iraq too knew alot abot it in early september.

Even with the sanctions, Saddam was still selling oil.  With that money, he could have taken care of his population.  Instead, he built palaces with gold bath tubs etc.

Saddam was sending oil via blackmarket during the entire blockade.
Do you think the quanities involved are large enough to actually count? Sure,you can buy a palace and golden  bathtub or two with the cash, but when talking about keeping an economy of a huge country up and running, do you think those shipments were such a big deal? If I took a leak in pacific ochean you guys would prolly be blaming me from every flood that gets televised.


The point of you guys apparently is that UN sanctions didn't cause Iraq and it's inhabitants to slip in a state of complete fucked up-ness???

Of course it was a joint effort; I'm not saying Saddam did as much as he could have done. He noticed that he can actually benefit from the mental state sanctions and poverty  provided by west pushed his people so he kinda hopped in. When west finally allowed a small medicine flow to Iraq Saddam was reaaaally slow to carry it out from his part.

This is my last post on this thread.. i get too upset reading you fucking idiots post shit...

Usually drama queens who feel it's important to actually announce something like that crawl back within a week or so.
I'd love to see you proving me wrong though. Your "I was in the navy so everyone who  disagrees with me is a fucking idiot!fuck!Debate this!fuck!Ooh I'm angry!Idiots post shit and it'supsetting! FUC TEH MIDLE EAST!NAVY YEAH" -BS was pretty amusing at first but one gets really tired of it really fast.