The Iraq / war on terror thread

[Mattman]

Does anybody remember the story about the people in Northern Ireland who were protesting some kids going to a certain school? I think they were throwing stuff at these kids.

I guess we should bomb Northern Ireland because there are people there who don't want peace?  

You can find extremists everywhere. That doesn't mean they're in a majority. Did you see the whole population throwing rocks or just a minority?

I guess no GN'R fans should be let near an arena because they're all a bunch of drunk fratboys looking to trash the venue. All Finns carry knives, all Dutch people sit in coffeeshops and smoke joints, all Americans are stupid trailertrash etc etc.  

By the way, you have people in YOUR country who would prefer censored news, no booze etc.



/jarmo

Good point about Northern Ireland, jarmo.  I think it's true that there are a million stupid conflicts like that all around the world that we can't understand.  But that doesn't make them right.  I remember when I saw these people in Northern Ireland throwing rocks at a terrified schoolgirl, I remember thinking the exact same thing I thought when I heard about the incident in Falujah - "What the hell?  These people are fucking animals."  I mean, you seriously have to wonder, how could a seemingly rational person do something like that?  I think it all goes back to that mob mentality thing...people as a whole are stupid.

I've always seen it as one of the greatest tragedies in human history that religion, which more often than not advocates peace and loving thy neighbour, is used to justify most of the wars that take place.  Read the books people.  It's like that headline in The Onion after September 11: "God angrily clarifies 'don't kill' rule."

[Cornell]

Just an observation here...

When there is a thread started about any country other than the US being bombed or people killed, it is a sympathy thread.  When it is about Americans, it turns into a debate - why is that?

[Doc Emmett Brown]

I've always seen it as one of the greatest tragedies in human history that religion, which more often than not advocates peace and loving thy neighbour, is used to justify most of the wars that take place.  Read the books people.  It's like that headline in The Onion after September 11: "God angrily clarifies 'don't kill' rule."

wow...someone else on this board reads The Onion besides me.  

[GNR_Green]

what I'm getting at is, if educated people tend towards anti-Americanism in North America and Europe

I've only got this far into the thread so will use this to introduce myself into it.

Some of the shite I've been reading compelled me to post.  The arabs have something worth a lot more than mcdonalds, the internet, plastic etc and I'm not talking about oil.  Ever heard of something called culture?  GW Bush hasn't obviously.  Think about it - if your culture is 'invaded' by another you don't like it.  To give an example (unless you're socialist or very left wing) Englishman you don't want your next door neighbour to build a minarette on his house and start shouting from it every day in another language.  You'd most likely think "shut the fuck up you foreign..".  If you're a steadfast Muslim living in Basra you might at first be excited to have a new widescreen TV delivered by American Express parcels or whatever, but you'd be pretty annoyed when america starts pumping mcdonalds, microsoft, beer, cigarette etc adverts into your living room.  The next thing you know your kids come home from school and Ali's wearing a Nike shirt and laughs at daddy cos he's wearing a traditional Iraqi 'thing' cos it's 'not cool'.  I live in England, so am part of what Blair and Bush like to call 'the civilised western democracy'.  The more educated you are the harder it is (or should be) for someone to tell you what's real, what to think, what to buy, what to wear etc.  Whether it be politics, religeon, commercialism or whatever, it means that Sadam is bad but is Bush really any better?  We are mostly only told what the governments want us to hear.  The greater proportions of the US and UK population are as easily brainwashed and pacified as the Iraqi's who fought for or followed Saddam.  You want proof?  Pop Idol (keeping the music link for this web-site!  even thouhg music's really got nothing to do with it).  Advertising preys on the weak mind and gives people an excuse to not think for themselves by making things appear to be good for you.  Why do the government not ban fast food, alcohol etc and not promote healthy living by doing what's right for people?  Because of $ and ?.

Anyone who's been slagging off the middle-east for being a pile of sand, what is so much better about a four-lane highway?  at least the life and habitants of the sand won't be poisoned by hundreds of americans driving jonny to mcdonalds in 5.0 litre engines belching out shit.

Don't get me wrong, I like some things America has given us.  I wouldn't be on this web-site if it wasn't for rock n' roll.  Some things invented have good and practical uses that I use every day.  But it doesn't mean I enjoy life any more than some people in the middle-east.  We are almost as oppressed as the Iaqi's were before this occupation and oil theft, although admittedly in different ways.  And before I get called an English twat or something, please note that I hate my own government as much as anyone else's, although the most loathable aspects of Blair etc is that he obviously wants to make us a mini-USA.  The british public are slowly but surely being manipulated into apathetic, care-free, thoughtless, sheep.  I'm glad that my eyes are open and when I go into town I don't visit Mcdonalds for salt&fat&sugar heart failure food, I don't pick up a packet of cigarettes made by mexican slaves, I don't buy a pair of nike trainers made by asian children and I don't go into a shop and buy a cd of will young with no musical, cultural or any importance or quality whatsoever.  There are things I'd like to try not to buy, like Coke, but I'm getting there because at least my eyes are open.

To end this rant, a GNR link - check out the lyrics on Garden of Eden.

 

[GnRNightrain]

The arabs have something worth a lot more than mcdonalds, the internet, plastic etc and I'm not talking about oil.  Ever heard of something called culture?  GW Bush hasn't obviously.  

A culture that gives women 0 rights, a culture that wont be happy till every Jew on the face of the earth is killed, and (as Kockstart pointed out) a culture where they feel that if they strap a bomb to a child and send him into a building to kill people he is doing an act of and for God.

I prefer fastfood and internet.


Were not trying to convert them into fastfood etc, were just trying to show them that there are other things out there then blowing each other off the face of the earth for Allah.

The greater proportions of the US and UK population are as easily brainwashed and pacified as the Iraqi's who fought for or followed Saddam.  You want proof?  Pop Idol (keeping the music link for this web-site!  even thouhg music's really got nothing to do with it).  Advertising preys on the weak mind and gives people an excuse to not think for themselves by making things appear to be good for you.  Why do the government not ban fast food, alcohol etc and not promote healthy living by doing what's right for people?  Because of $ and ?.

Good lord, you think that this stuff should be banned?  Ill tell you what, there are many states that try and ban this stuff or advertising for this stuff, but the courts dont let them.  Because we have a belief in the US in freedom.  Thats right, we actually believe that people arent as dumb as they sound and that people can make decisions for themselves.  Instead of telling people people what they can and cant hear based on some sort of paternalism, we let the McDonalds of the world advertise their food and then let people make decisions themselves.  Actually what it does is make people think for themselves, by banning and controlling the information that people get (as in most arab countries) people make less informed decisions.  You really think thats better?

Don't get me wrong, I like some things America has given us.  I wouldn't be on this web-site if it wasn't for rock n' roll.  

Ill make a guess that you dont walk to work everyday or everywhere you go.  That public transporation or automobiles sure are useful arent they?  So is that electricity that your on the internet with, or that plastic that your computer is made out of.  

Some things invented have good and practical uses that I use every day.  But it doesn't mean I enjoy life any more than some people in the middle-east.  

You can tell their just loving life over there, they were getting starved by their dictators, raped by the dictators, women cant do anything (including leaving their home in 110 degree weather unless they are accompanied by a male and have clothes from head to toe so that 0 skin is showing.  They certainly have no clue what freedom is like, or what it is like to have any hope.  

We are almost as oppressed as the Iaqi's were before this occupation and oil theft, although admittedly in different ways.

By whom?  All Ive gotten from your post is that McDonalds is an oppressor?  Cause they make fast food and certain people make dumb decisions to eat it?

And before I get called an English twat or something, please note that I hate my own government as much as anyone else's, although the most loathable aspects of Blair etc is that he obviously wants to make us a mini-USA.

I was right about to call you an English twat before I read this part, now I wont

I don't visit Mcdonalds for salt&fat&sugar heart failure food,

Good for you, but arent you glad you have the opportunity to eat McDonalds if you want to.  I dont eat it either, cause its not good for you.  But I sure like to know that if I want a Big Mac and fries its just around the corner.  And a few times a year I go eat it.
 

I don't pick up a packet of cigarettes made by mexican slaves, I don't buy a pair of nike trainers made by asian children

I never understood the logic behind this argument.  You do realize that the only reason that these people have jobs at all and that Nike is there for them to make shoes that cheap is because labor is cheaper there than the US.  Im not saying its great that these people make little money and dont have the best working conditions, but whats the solution?  You make a minimum wage or say Nike cant employ there, then all you are doing is taking away the jobs cause the productivity rate of these people is clearly not as high as they could get for a livable wage in the US.  There for you end up starving these people and take them off any latter that they were on in which they might be able to obtain some useful skills.

and I don't go into a shop and buy a cd of will young with no musical, cultural or any importance or quality whatsoever.  There are things I'd like to try not to buy, like Coke, but I'm getting there because at least my eyes are open.

I still dont understand why buying these things are bad?  Your eyes are open, so open ours.  What is so bad with buying coke?  If its a health argument, then fine.  But that argument would have to carry to probably your entire diet (which I could probably pick apart in bits and pieces).  Otherwise I dont see the problem with such products.

[Doc Emmett Brown]

All Ive gotten from your post is that McDonalds is an oppressor?  Cause they make fast food and certain people make dumb decisions to eat it?

Good for you, but arent you glad you have the opportunity to eat McDonalds if you want to.  I dont eat it either, cause its not good for you.  But I sure like to know that if I want a Big Mac and fries its just around the corner.  

The key word there being opportunity.  You are correct to point out that we can rant & rave about McDs being crap, but we have the freedom of choice. (And I admit I eat it a few times a year too)  


Here is a quote from George F. Will in the Washington Post online:

"Nevertheless, the first task of the occupation remains the first task of government: to establish a monopoly on violence."

It is a serious and difficult task to say the least.  

The violence in Iraq is painful to endure, but we cant establish democracy in a day (or a month).  It is easy to tear something down, much harder to help them create a government and society that doesnt encourage suicide bombers.  

And once they have a democratic government with a good economy, it will help everyone!  And I bet they will have their own version of fast food and athletic sneakers.  They are not so different from us, you know.

[kockstar99]

The arabs have something worth a lot more than mcdonalds, the internet, plastic etc and I'm not talking about oil.

please tell me what it is...ive been waiting for a week for someone to respond with what that might be...

Ever heard of something called culture?
GW Bush hasn't obviously.

back that up.... I think he is a very cultured man...

Think about it - if your culture is 'invaded' by another you don't like it.

I guess your talking about the Kurds in the north being invaded and gassed and slaughtered like animals by Saddam right??

to give an example (unless you're socialist or very left wing) Englishman you don't want your next door neighbour to build a minarette on his house and start shouting from it every day in another language.  

its his house...if he is too loud or disturbing ill let him know or call the police...

You'd most likely think "shut the fuck up you foreign..".

If i was a biggot i would think that.. otherwise i would think he was just being rude...

If you're a steadfast Muslim living in Basra you might at first be excited to have a new widescreen TV delivered by American Express parcels or whatever, but you'd be pretty annoyed when america starts pumping mcdonalds, microsoft, beer, cigarette etc adverts into your living room.

If your a steadfast Muslim living in Basra your not going to be getting americas mcdonalds, microsoft, beer, ciggarettes adverts in ur living room... you will get STATE RUN PAID FOR propiganda... Ciggarettes and beer are not allowed in Basra under Saddam(shit face) rule... American companys do not advertise or broadcast to Basra

The next thing you know your kids come home from school and Ali's wearing a Nike shirt and laughs at daddy cos he's wearing a traditional Iraqi 'thing' cos it's 'not cool'.

They are not allowed to wear non traditional Iraqi "things" at school or after school... your above post would never happen in Iraq...

I live in England, so am part of what Blair and Bush like to call 'the civilised western democracy'.

no matter what 2 elected men call it consider yourself lucky... you prob have the right to post on the internet or wear your own clothes or listen to the God of rock n roll W. Axl Rose..

The more educated you are the harder it is (or should be) for someone to tell you what's real, what to think, what to buy, what to wear etc.  Whether it be politics, religeon, commercialism or whatever,

Not true.. Thats called Freedom... not education...

it means that Sadam is bad but is Bush really any better?

Saddam gasses his "own" people... Saddam tortures and cuts off hands, body parts, rapes,.. mutulates.. if you dont belive me go to www.theeunderground.net and just do a quick search in the death gallery...

We are mostly only told what the governments want us to hear.

Tell that to Hanity and Colmes,... Bill O'Riely, Dateline, 48 hours.. they do everything they can to dig up dirt on the government..  not to mention that the President does live QnA sessions with the media...

The greater proportions of the US and UK population are as easily brainwashed and pacified as the Iraqi's who fought for or followed Saddam.

They were not easily brainwashed... take a look around in the Northern Iraq....They were gassed.. The US has an all Volunteer Fighting Force...Saddam, did not.. he starved his people then gave them pennys to agree with him...

You want proof?  

sure....

Pop Idol (keeping the music link for this web-site!  even thouhg music's really got nothing to do with it).

then why? coz you like the Telly??

Advertising preys on the weak mind and gives people an excuse to not think for themselves by making things appear to be good for you.  

no advertising gives networks money... if anyone needed an excuse to not think for themselves they can watch the programming!!!!!!

Why do the government not ban fast food, alcohol etc and not promote healthy living by doing what's right for people?  Because of $ and ?.

noooooo  coz its my right to fuck myself up if i want too ..If any goverment did what you have just suggested they would be called Dictators..

Anyone who's been slagging off the middle-east for being a pile of sand, what is so much better about a four-lane highway?  

If you dont know then there isnt much use in tearing ur banter apart coz ur prob dead from the neck up...

at least the life and habitants of the sand won't be poisoned by hundreds of americans driving jonny to mcdonalds in 5.0 litre engines belching out shit.

Really?? poisoned by nerve gas is better???

Don't get me wrong, I like some things America has given us.

ok... what has Iraq or the middle east given you??  I KOCKSTAR99 CHALLENGE YOU TO LIST 5 THINGS THEY HAVE GIVEN TO YOU....

I wouldn't be on this web-site if it wasn't for rock n' roll.

no you wouldnt be on this website if it wasnt for free people in the world.. americans and european for inventing and hosting this website... The Middle east has done shit to help this website...

Some things invented have good and practical uses that I use every day.  But it doesn't mean I enjoy life any more than some people in the middle-east.

Ok never post here again.. never check email.. never watch english TV.. Never watch a movie.. never make an unrecorded phone call, never play loud rock music.. never fuck who you choose.. never drink beer... see how you enjoy it...

We are almost as oppressed as the Iaqi's were before this occupation and oil theft,

your a serious dipshit arent you??

although admittedly in different ways.

List them... I call you out... list them....

And before I get called an English twat or something, please note that I hate my own government as much as anyone else's,

Can i buy you a ticket from London to Tehran??
then well see...

although the most loathable aspects of Blair etc is that he obviously wants to make us a mini-USA.

Not true... and if it were you say it like a bad thing...
Go live in tehan...

The british public are slowly but surely being manipulated into apathetic, care-free, thoughtless, sheep.  I'm glad that my eyes are open and when I go into town I don't visit Mcdonalds for salt&fat&sugar heart failure food, I don't pick up a packet of cigarettes made by mexican slaves, I don't buy a pair of nike trainers made by asian children and I don't go into a shop and buy a cd of will young with no musical, cultural or any importance or quality whatsoever.  There are things I'd like to try not to buy, like Coke, but I'm getting there because at least my eyes are open.

you wear all black to school dont you?

check out the lyrics on Garden of Eden.

you were dropped on your head as a child wernt you??

[axls_locomotive]

I never understood the logic behind this argument.  You do realize that the only reason that these people have jobs at all and that Nike is there for them to make shoes that cheap is because labor is cheaper there than the US.  Im not saying its great that these people make little money and dont have the best working conditions, but whats the solution?  You make a minimum wage or say Nike cant employ there, then all you are doing is taking away the jobs cause the productivity rate of these people is clearly not as high as they could get for a livable wage in the US.  There for you end up starving these people and take them off any latter that they were on in which they might be able to obtain some useful skills.

The reason why people are against it is because of poor working conditions, people treated like slave labour because of lack of laws, poor quality machinery, children working in sweat shops...and while these companies obey employment laws in countries of the west while blatantly disregarding the health of the workforces in other countries.  You make it out as if this is such a good thing for them.

Ill make a guess that you dont walk to work everyday or everywhere you go.  That public transporation or automobiles sure are useful arent they?  So is that electricity that your on the internet with, or that plastic that your computer is made out of.  

I sure hope you arent thinking that USA invented the computer and the automobile, you would be wrong in both cases.

By whom?  All Ive gotten from your post is that McDonalds is an oppressor?  Cause they make fast food and certain people make dumb decisions to eat it?

I think he was just using that as an example, plenty of companies exist,
RIAA and othe record companies who advertise dross music by the bucketload and proclaim they are the next sensation, look how many people think they are good because they are told by these companies they are good
Sony, with their copyright protection software on mp3 players, yet happily sell CDR's by the millions
Glaxo, inventing medical conditions just so they can invent fake drugs to combat it, nice profit maker
Oil companies preaching environmental concerns, such a laugh
Fast food companies preaching how healthy their food is, funny stuff
Governments making it out as if they believe in freedom at ever opportunity, what bollocks, you will never be truly free..convincing most of the electorate that WMD existed, that Iraq would be free in 2 months after the war, that chemical labs existed, that Al Quaeda camps were in Iraq, all lies
 

A culture that gives women 0 rights, a culture that wont be happy till every Jew on the face of the earth is killed, and (as Kockstart pointed out) a culture where they feel that if they strap a bomb to a child and send him into a building to kill people he is doing an act of and for God.

how many people in the west would sacrifice themselves to save others?  that is what they believe they are doing, that is their belief that they will go to heaven or wherever if they perform such a selfless deed...that is their religion and you or no one else has any right to tell them elsewise, or dont you believe in freedom of choice?

I still dont understand why buying these things are bad?  Your eyes are open, so open ours.  What is so bad with buying coke?  If its a health argument, then fine.  But that argument would have to carry to probably your entire diet (which I could probably pick apart in bits and pieces).  Otherwise I dont see the problem with such products.

maybe because some of these products, especially the ones that effect your health in the long run, contain addictive chemicals

back that up.... I think he is a very cultured man...

i dont think you can convince many people of that...

If i was a biggot i would think that.. otherwise i would think he was just being rude...

Fuck Palestine
Fuck Iraq
Fuck Islam
Fuck Alquida
Fuck the oil
Fuck the camels
Fuck the quoran

enough said

Not true.. Thats called Freedom... not education...

you are blind

Saddam gasses his "own" people... Saddam tortures and cuts off hands, body parts, rapes,.. mutulates.. if you dont belive me go to www.theeunderground.net and just do a quick search in the death gallery...

He gassed the Kurds, 5000 of them...or did he? do you know there is still a lot of unanswered questions from the gassing at Halabja? you do know that as at the end of the Iran Iraq war, the USA supported Iraq in that war with weapons, money btw,
http://www.sovereignty.org.uk/siteinfo/newsround/iraq2.html

but wait! 30,000+ were killed in the first Iraq war, 10,000 in the second Iraq war...sanctions against Iraq cost 2 million lives, and not to forget that almost a million died in the Iran Iraq war...do you think they have a right to be angry after all that?

ok... what has Iraq or the middle east given you??  I KOCKSTAR99 CHALLENGE YOU TO LIST 5 THINGS THEY HAVE GIVEN TO YOU....

Typical, judging a person's/people's by their value, you think about yourself but forget to think of the value they have given to others maybe we should widen the discussion, what have disabled people given you? list 5 things...how dumb!

[kockstar99]

i dont think you can convince many people of that...

I dont care what you think enough to convince you ..I asked him to back it up and of course he cant...its his opinion...

Fuck Palestine
Fuck Iraq
Fuck Islam
Fuck Alquida
Fuck the oil
Fuck the camels
Fuck the quoran

enough said

you said nothing... you quoted me rather lamely as if coz i said fuck the middle east that im a biggot...

you are blind

your a dipshit....re read ...

He gassed the Kurds, 5000 of them...or did he?

yes he did....

do you know there is still a lot of unanswered questions from the gassing at Halabja?

list them... though theres not many questions that can come from a gassing...

you do know that as at the end of the Iran Iraq war, the USA supported Iraq in that war with weapons, money btw,

yes i do know this...

but wait! 30,000+ were killed in the first Iraq war, 10,000 in the second Iraq war...sanctions against Iraq cost 2 million lives, and not to forget that almost a million died in the Iran Iraq war...do you think they have a right to be angry after all that?

do you think that all americas fault? the worlds fault??  they are obviously angry ...look at the way they act...

Typical, judging a person's/people's by their value,

Thats a nice argument for for someone who cant list anything they have contributed...

you think about yourself but forget to think of the value they have given to others

I asked someone to list something...anything good that the middle east has contributed to world in the last shit ill say 10-20 years.. obviously your not going to be the one either....

maybe we should widen the discussion,

To include what?

what have disabled people given you?

disabled people dont throw rocks at each other, strap bombs to children, cut the clittoris out of women.. bring "shame" to rape victims, ..etc etc... the only thing "dumb" is the post that you have just made...

guess your not the one who is going to name anything good that has come from the middle east either...

[GNR_Green]

Ok, it's all getting very heated!

Kockstar, I think we're both gonna have to agree on one thing - did you or I have a say in whether the coalition went into Iraq?  Nuff said...

I never said I liked any particular religeon, I most definately don't read the koran or want to live in down-town basra.  I agree that the people of that area do plainly incomprehensible things.  I admit I might've used one or two arguable examples, but my major point is this - what gives G W Bush the right to fuck with other people's political/cultural battles?  The UN didn't even agree to it, only Spain from what I remember.  The only reason any other countries are in Iraq now is to clear up after the mess the UK & USA made (in possibly have some of that nice, tasty oil).

As for Mcdonalds etc, Q has quite kindly backed me up and I think me and him are on the same wavelength as far as that goes.

So Kockstar, no bad feelings, I don't hate you or anything cos you're a yankee fries-muncher  

I only wish more people could understand that this is debate that needs having, and could understand more the implications of living a commercially-dictated life.

The pop-idol thing is an obvious one though surely - what argument can there be to say that it's right?  I know not every single civillian in the western world is forced to watch/buy it, but I'm saying that there are a lot of people who do just don't realise that it can only be a bad thing.  If I could make a person who claims to love (cough) it and watches it regularly and votes etc understand that they're being taken for a ride, then would that make me a dictator?  A saviour more likely.  Freedom of choice is one thing, but it's something that can easily be twisted by the media etc.

Anyway, I'll let you reply because you're right, we have a nice and free web-site with which to do so.  Just calm down before you start typing though eh!?!

 

[axls_locomotive]

I dont care what you think enough to convince you ..I asked him to back it up and of course he cant...its his opinion...

You mean the same guy who said these things? check out http://www.dubyaspeak.com/
"I've coined new words, like, misunderstanding and Hispanically."
"You teach a child to read, and he or her will be able to pass a literacy test.''
"But I also made it clear to (Vladimir Putin) that it's important to think beyond the old days of when we had the concept that if we blew each other up, the world would be safe."
"It's very important for folks to understand that when there's more trade, there's more commerce."
"We have overcome a recession. That means things are going backwards"
"Keep good relations with the Grecians. "

 

you said nothing... you quoted me rather lamely as if coz i said fuck the middle east that im a biggot...

You obviously dont have the intellectual capacity to get it

your a dipshit....re read ...

Wow what a great comeback

list them... though theres not many questions that can come from a gassing...

Well you obviously havent read the article, there is still doubt as to whether it was the Iranians or the Iraqis who gassed the Kurds, I think that's a pretty big question mark

do you think that all americas fault? the worlds fault??  they are obviously angry ...look at the way they act...

Nope not America, the American governments yes, you dont hand a gun to a known murderer, that's an analogy btw, I also blame the corporations who sold those weapons and the countries who let those weapons be sold to people they knew to be dictators.

Thats a nice argument for for someone who cant list anything they have contributed...

I dont judge anyone by their value or what they have contributed, it is not a requirement for living but hey if you want 5 ill give you 5

Saudi Arabia has one of the best medical care systems in the world
the new formula 1 track in bahrain http://www.newarabia.net/pictures/formulaone/picture2.jpg
dubai has the largest hotel in the world built on an artificial island, not to mention the amazing architecture that is displayed right across the middle east
there is also a lot of trade between the middle east and the rest of the world, more than you may realise
saudi arabia's low crime rate

disabled people dont throw rocks at each other, strap bombs to children, cut the clittoris out of women.. bring "shame" to rape victims, ..etc etc... the only thing "dumb" is the post that you have just made...

guess your not the one who is going to name anything good that has come from the middle east either...

You say that like it happens with everyone, there have only been a very small percentage of people who have strapped bombs to children, a bit harsh to judge the whole middle east on some extremists, most are adults believing they are doing the right thing

i could probably show you people throwing rocks at each other from virtually every country in the world if i had time, thats just ignorance on your part, you are labelling everyone with the same tag

what you are talking about is cultural differences in those other cases...

btw have you forgotten that other countries also execute people, not very humane? or is it?

im not the one who is ignorant of other cultures

[kockstar99]

Im tired of debating this with you people... you defend the middle east and blah blah blah its all americans fault...blah blah... pull out dumb ass quotes that George W said to try to make him look like a fool...

Defend Iraqis dragging bodys in the streets with "Well you did it in Vietnam"

and nobody can tell me anything positive that has come out of that place besides fucking glass or something..

They gas their own people, abuse women, strap bombs to children,
and you counter with shit about McDonalds or PoP idol..

Bottom line for me is that place is shit hole... I went there.. I fucking hated it.. Its a shit hole..
Then you call me "ignorant to other cultrues"

Bullshit you dont even know me.. I said before my wife is philipina and her son is a half korean boy... I know about fucking cultures..

Ive been there away from loved ones and it doesnt sit well with me when i see them hang bodys from bridges.

All the work and planning we do to go there and help them and they do shit like this.. Well this american is done going there.. done trying to babysit them when i have my own family to worry about..

Their place is shit... their  goverments are shit.. their religion is shit.. Some of the people i met were cool and nice to me.

But Id like to say its thier mess, let them clean it up.. but then some towel head with a jihad would hijack some planes and crash them into our place..

God bless the ones that are over there now. English and American... you will need it with the fucking savages over there claiming its all for allah...

Im back to to talking to Guns n Roses and W.Axl Rose.. something that i enjoy and dont get upset talking about.
 

[jarmo]

Kockstar, do you hate all of Europe for what happened in former Yugoslavia in the 1990s?

How about the sickos in Belgium, England etc who kill kids? Europe must be a shithole...  

Extremists are everywhere. Just because that's what gets the most attention on the news, doesn't mean that's what the majority of people are thinking.


/jarmo

[kockstar99]

Kockstar, do you hate all of Europe for what happened in former Yugoslavia in the 1990s?

How about the sickos in Belgium, England etc who kill kids? Europe must be a shithole...  

Extremists are everywhere. Just because that's what gets the most attention on the news, doesn't mean that's what the majority of people are thinking.


/jarmo

No I dont hate anybody...  My point was that the place is shit coz nothing from the middle east contributes to the world as a whole.  

Then when they attacked with rediculous arguments like "america did that in Vietnam"  "America, America, blah blah blah... like its some how our fault and were to blame for those people hanging from bridges...

Seriously this thread upsets me when i read some of the posts..

Like its our fault... Its our fault that they burn and hang people from the bridges.. people that are there to help them... It makes me think what the fuck is the point.. but then when i list the attrocitiys and remember 9/11 i know what the point is....

Seriously after i post on this thread and sign off i sit and think about this shit for a good 30 mins.. Its really upsetting..

I want to go discuss GnR and have fun here again.. Im sorry i enterd this thread coz when i hear some of the arguments that Mc Donalds is simillar to the middle east regimes it sickens me.

What would people like us to do? sit back and wait for another 9/11?

[kockstar99]

You mean the same guy who said these things? check out http://www.dubyaspeak.com/

are you just trying to say that hes an idiot? or hes said dumb things? that has nothing to do with culture,...

You obviously dont have the intellectual capacity to get it

must be hard being as smart as you are...

Wow what a great comeback

a great comeback to your stupid comment..

Well you obviously havent read the article, there is still doubt as to whether it was the Iranians or the Iraqis who gassed the Kurds, I think that's a pretty big question mark

a doubt into whos mind?? you and I know who gassed them.. and EVEN if... the fact that you trying to guess what COUNTRY gassed them even more backs up my statement that the place is a shit hole...

Nope not America, the American governments yes, you dont hand a gun to a known murderer, that's an analogy btw, I also blame the corporations who sold those weapons and the countries who let those weapons be sold to people they knew to be dictators.

Ok all american goverments fault? Its our fault? So if a gun store owner sells you a gun and you shoot someone is it the gun stores fault?? another analogy i know is that "Your responsible for your own actions"

Saudi Arabia has one of the best medical care systems in the world
the new formula 1 track in bahrain http://www.newarabia.net/pictures/formulaone/picture2.jpg
dubai has the largest hotel in the world built on an artificial island, not to mention the amazing architecture that is displayed right across the middle east
there is also a lot of trade between the middle east and the rest of the world, more than you may realise
saudi arabia's low crime rate

I said list 5 things they have contributed to the world... a Formula 1 track in bahrain or a large hotel in the fucking desert doesnt  contribute to the world.. neither does the crime rate of Saudi Arabia...
Of course they have low crime rates.. They cut your fucking hand off for stealing...

You say that like it happens with everyone, there have only been a very small percentage of people who have strapped bombs to children,

But it still happens frequently enough that you and I have heard about it...

a bit harsh to judge the whole middle east on some extremists,

its a bit harsh to crash planes into skyscrpers for some shit called Allah that most of dont care about anyways...

most are adults believing they are doing the right thing

who? the extriemest? why would you sympathize with them?

i could probably show you people throwing rocks at each other from virtually every country in the world if i had time,

while your at it  show me people strapping bombs to children, cutting out clittorises, gassing, Rape "shame" victims, from virtually every country in the world if you have time and  ill concide that the middle east is not a shit hole..

thats just ignorance on your part, you are labelling everyone with the same tag

no im not....im labeling an area of the world...there are individual people over there sure....

what you are talking about is cultural differences in those other cases...

you call rape"shame" victims,  Forced marriages, State run media, gassing other people, terrorism
a cultural difference?? no i hope your smarter than that..

btw have you forgotten that other countries also execute people, not very humane? or is it?

other countries dont do the above mentioned ...

im not the one who is ignorant of other cultures

nobody said you were...

[GnRNightrain]

Well you obviously havent read the article, there is still doubt as to whether it was the Iranians or the Iraqis who gassed the Kurds, I think that's a pretty big question mark

I dont understand how whether it was iran or iraq affects Kockstar's argument?

Nope not America, the American governments yes, you dont hand a gun to a known murderer, that's an analogy btw, I also blame the corporations who sold those weapons and the countries who let those weapons be sold to people they knew to be dictators.

Fair enough, it was  mistake.  But war makes strange bedfellows.  Some will probably argue that we shouldnt have teamed up with Stalin in WWII, but who would have known in hindsight.

I dont judge anyone by their value or what they have contributed, it is not a requirement for living but hey if you want 5 ill give you 5

saudi arabia's low crime rate

Do you realize why Saudi Arabia has such a low crime rate?  Cause if you steal you get your hand cut off.  They have the most severe penalties for the smallest crimes.  You certainly dont advocate such criminal penalties do you?

[Will]

Just an observation here...

When there is a thread started about any country other than the US being bombed or people killed, it is a sympathy thread.  When it is about Americans, it turns into a debate - why is that?

I totally see your point. Since we're on the topic, more than an observation, I would say something shocking to me is that lots of people here didn't seem to care about what happened in Spain on 3/11. We already have four pages here while the Madrid thread has barely 3 pages (the end of the thread is mostly news posted by Jarmo). Only six days after the tragedy, the thread vanished. And I didn't see lots of comments from Americans in that one. So when I see 4 pages of comments here of people debating the tragic death of four people who are dead because their administration decided to invade a country, while no one really cares about 200 hundred innocent people slaughtered in Spain, I'm confused.

I'm very sorry for the families of those four American civilians, like I was devastated for all the families of the Spanish victims, but I'm not surprised at all. The US invaded this country and they didn't like that, some of them decided killing US soldiers/ civilians would end that, but apparently they didn't understand yet that nothing would really end it. And I'm devastated thinking about the hundreds of US soldiers who died (and are still dying) in that war...devastated because it shouldn't be that way. Hussein was a dictator and it's a good thing he's not Iraq's leader anymore, but I feel there was another way to do it, a way that would have spared hundreds of US and Iraqi lives. A way that would not have not forced the US to waste all that money in a war several thousands miles away in a country that did not attack them, instead of intelligently use that money in the US economy so Americans living in the US could find jobs and enjoy better healthcare.

I wouldn't be surprised if another 9/11 would happen in the US just before the elections...Al Qaeda thinking it would lead the people to vote against Bush...but that's not how things work in the US. That would lead people to vote for Bush, thinking he could protect them. If that happens, the new administration will waste billions of dollars in wars and weapons trying to find a scapegoat, when the problem is far more complicated than that...

Anyways, if you're still reading that, I'm impressed!

[axls_locomotive]

Im tired of debating this with you people... you defend the middle east and blah blah blah its all americans fault...blah blah... pull out dumb ass quotes that George W said to try to make him look like a fool...

Defend Iraqis dragging bodys in the streets with "Well you did it in Vietnam"

and nobody can tell me anything positive that has come out of that place besides fucking glass or something..

They gas their own people, abuse women, strap bombs to children,
and you counter with shit about McDonalds or PoP idol..

Bottom line for me is that place is shit hole... I went there.. I fucking hated it.. Its a shit hole..
Then you call me "ignorant to other cultrues"

Bullshit you dont even know me.. I said before my wife is philipina and her son is a half korean boy... I know about fucking cultures..

Ive been there away from loved ones and it doesnt sit well with me when i see them hang bodys from bridges.

All the work and planning we do to go there and help them and they do shit like this.. Well this american is done going there.. done trying to babysit them when i have my own family to worry about..

Their place is shit... their  goverments are shit.. their religion is shit.. Some of the people i met were cool and nice to me.

But Id like to say its thier mess, let them clean it up.. but then some towel head with a jihad would hijack some planes and crash them into our place..

God bless the ones that are over there now. English and American... you will need it with the fucking savages over there claiming its all for allah...

Im back to to talking to Guns n Roses and W.Axl Rose.. something that i enjoy and dont get upset talking about.
 

Umm i never said it was all americans fault, btw my girlfriend is american and she is in the US Navy, every american i have met personally has been a good experience i dont label all of america to blame btw, just the government

Bush is a fool

no it doesnt sit well with me either when people are murdered, anyone, anywhere...crimes should be put before justice, not before a gun

and you should expect at least some of the people in Iraq, which has gone through hell over the last 2 decades, to have little sense of what is right and wrong, these people need help

yes an Arab extremist with many followers, "towel head" sheesh

[GnRNightrain]

The reason why people are against it is because of poor working conditions, people treated like slave labour because of lack of laws, poor quality machinery, children working in sweat shops...and while these companies obey employment laws in countries of the west while blatantly disregarding the health of the workforces in other countries.  You make it out as if this is such a good thing for them.

Well Im not saying that its a great situation.  Im just saying its better than any alternative.  You start a campaign to end slave labor in these places, and you will starve the people to death.  These people just do not have the productivity of eurpeans or americans, so if you make it too expensive to do business there they will go back to europe or america.  Flat out economics.

Ill make a guess that you dont walk to work everyday or everywhere you go.  That public transporation or automobiles sure are useful arent they?  So is that electricity that your on the internet with, or that plastic that your computer is made out of.  

I sure hope you arent thinking that USA invented the computer and the automobile, you would be wrong in both cases.

Never said they did, its just easy to bash western culture until you realize that you cant live without this stuff.  Its just like the hollywood left that who complain about suv's, but then dont realize that their private jets or limosines are ten times worse.  

I think he was just using that as an example, plenty of companies exist,
RIAA and othe record companies who advertise dross music by the bucketload and proclaim they are the next sensation, look how many people think they are good because they are told by these companies they are good

Simple supply and demand, if there was no market for it, companies wouldnt sell it.

how many people in the west would sacrifice themselves to save others?  that is what they believe they are doing, that is their belief that they will go to heaven or wherever if they perform such a selfless deed...that is their religion and you or no one else has any right to tell them elsewise, or dont you believe in freedom of choice?

That is why they are barbaric.  I do believe in freedom of choice, but not if that choice takes the lives away from others.  Just because you believe in free choice doesnt mean you believe in giving someone the free choice to murder someone if they want to.  Its not that hard to figure out the distinction.

maybe because some of these products, especially the ones that effect your health in the long run, contain addictive chemicals

And in our country people become aware of such things, because people do studies and print them in the thousands of magazines and papers that we have across the US.  If people still make stupid decisions despite knowing, then thats their fault.  If companies deliberately deceive then they get sued.

[GnRNightrain]

I totally see your point. Since we're on the topic, more than an observation, I would say something shocking to me is that lots of people here didn't seem to care about what happened in Spain on 3/11. We already have four pages here while the Madrid thread has barely 3 pages (the end of the thread is mostly news posted by Jarmo). Only six days after the tragedy, the thread vanished. And I didn't see lots of comments from Americans in that one. So when I see 4 pages of comments here of people debating the tragic death of four people who are dead because their administration decided to invade a country, while no one really cares about 200 hundred innocent people slaughtered in Spain, I'm confused.

There were some, I posted in there.  The problem was, it was a European country so no one started blaming spain for the attacks on their own country.  Everytime we get in these threads there is anti-american talk, thats why they go on for so long.  We end up debating the same things.

I wouldn't be surprised if another 9/11 would happen in the US just before the elections...Al Qaeda thinking it would lead the people to vote against Bush...but that's not how things work in the US. That would lead people to vote for Bush, thinking he could protect them. If that happens, the new administration will waste billions of dollars in wars and weapons trying to find a scapegoat, when the problem is far more complicated than that...

Your 100% correct, if Al Qaeda tries to attack to sway the election, Americans wont go hide under the table.