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Author Topic: The Iraq / war on terror thread  (Read 204211 times)
Mattman
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« on: April 01, 2004, 05:08:06 PM »

Thursday, April 01, 2004
 
FALLUJAH, Iraq (AP) - In a scene reminiscent of Somalia, frenzied crowds dragged the burned, mutilated bodies of four men identified as U.S. security guards through the streets of a town west of the Iraqi capital Baghdad on Wednesday and strung two of them up from a bridge after insurgents ambushed their SUVs.

Five U.S. soldiers of the 1st Infantry Division also were killed when a bomb exploded under their M-113 armoured personnel carrier north of Fallujah, making it the bloodiest day for Americans in Iraq since Jan. 8.

The four security guards were killed in Fallujah, a Sunni Triangle city about 55 kilometres west of Baghdad and scene of some of the worst violence on both sides of the conflict since the beginning of the U.S. occupation a year ago.

Chanting: "Fallujah is the graveyard of Americans," residents cheered after the assault on two four-wheel-drive civilian vehicles left both SUVs in flames.

Residents in Fallujah said insurgents attacked the guards with small-arms fire and rocket-propelled grenades. After the attack, a jubilant crowd of civilians, none of whom appeared to be armed, gathered to celebrate, dragging the bodies through the street and hanging two of them from the bridge. Many of those in the crowd were excited young boys who shouted slogans in front of television cameras.

Television showed one man beating a charred corpse with a metal pole. Others tied a yellow rope to a body, hooked it to a car and dragged it down the main street of town. Two blackened and mangled corpses were hung from the green, iron bridge spanning the Euphrates River.

"The people of Fallujah hung some of the bodies on the old bridge like slaughtered sheep," resident Abdul Aziz Mohammed said.

Some corpses were dismembered, he said.

U.S. officials did not identify the dead or the nature of their work because the next of kin had not yet been notified. However, early evidence indicated they worked for Blackwater Security Consulting, a company based in Moyock, N.C., the company said in a statement. The security firm hires former military personnel from the United States and other countries to provide security training and guard services. In Iraq, the company was hired by the Pentagon to provide security for convoys that delivered food in the Fallujah area, the company statement said.

One resident displayed what appeared to be military dog tags taken from one body. Residents also said there were weapons in the targeted cars. Television showed a U.S. passport near a body and a Department of Defence identification card belonging to another man.

Some of the slain guards were wearing flak jackets, resident Safa Mohammedi said.

The White House blamed terrorists and remnants of captive Iraqi president Saddam Hussein's regime for the "horrific attacks" on the U.S. guards.

"It is offensive, it is despicable the way these individuals have been treated," White House press secretary Scott McClellan said.

Referring to the planned June 30 transfer of sovereignty to Iraqis, McClellan said "the best way to honour those that lost their lives" is to continue with efforts to bring democracy to Iraq.

U.S. State Department spokesman Adam Ereli said the guards "were trying to make a difference and to help others."

The abuse and mutilation of the corpses was similar to the scene more than a decade ago in Somalia, when a mob dragged corpses of U.S. soldiers through the streets of Mogadishu, eventually leading to the U.S. withdrawal from the African country. The images were broadcast worldwide and became the subject of the book and movie Black Hawk Down.

Wednesday's images of the four killed in Iraq filled television screens worldwide but were largely shunned by U.S. television that deemed them too graphic.

In London, Channel 4 News broadcast an electronically blurred body being dragged through the street. In Paris, LCI television station showed the footage of the bodies without blurring them. In Germany, ZDF News showed riot scenes but not any bodies.

A man held a printed sign with a skull and crossbones and the phrase "Fallujah is the cemetery for Americans" beneath the blackened corpses after they were pulled from the vehicles.

One body was tied to a car that had a poster in its window of Sheik Ahmed Yassin, the founder of the Palestinian militant group Hamas who was assassinated by the Israeli military in Gaza City.

The roadside bomb that killed the five U.S. soldiers Wednesday was in Malahma, 20 kilometres northwest of Fallujah, where anti-U.S. insurgents are active.

Their deaths raised the number of U.S. troops killed in March to at least 48, making it the second-deadliest month for U.S. troops since President George W. Bush declared an end to major combat May 1. The deadliest month was November, when 82 U.S. troops were killed.

In all, at least 597 U.S. troops have died in Iraq since the war began March 20, 2003. Of the total, 459 have died since May 1 when Bush flew onto an aircraft carrier off the California coast to declare the end of major combat.

In nearby Ramadi, insurgents threw a grenade at a government building and Iraqi security forces returned fire Wednesday, witnesses said. It was not clear if there were casualties.

Also in Ramadi, a roadside bomb exploded near a U.S. convoy, witnesses said. U.S. officials in Baghdad could not confirm the attack.

Northeast of Baghdad, in the city Baqouba on Wednesday, a suicide bomber blew up explosives in his car when he was near a convoy of government vehicles, wounding 14 Iraqis and killing himself, officials said.

In Baghdad, at least 10,000 supporters of a radical Shiite Muslim cleric rallied Wednesday outside the headquarters of the U.S.-led coalition in a protest against the closure of their weekly newspaper, accused by the top U.S. official in Iraq of inciting violence against coalition troops.

The chief U.S. administrator in Iraq, Paul Bremer, ordered Al-Hawza closed for two months Sunday because its articles "form a serious threat of violence" against coalition forces and Iraqi citizens working with them. Al-Hawza's managing editor dismissed the accusation and said political motives were behind Bremer's decision.

"Free al-Hawza newspaper from its captivity," declared one banner hoisted by protesters, many of whom carried portraits of their leader, Muqtada al-Sadr, or waved black and green flags.

Some protesters wore white shrouds, a symbol of martyrdom. Black-clad members of al-Mahdi Army, a militia set up by al-Sadr last year, marched in a military step.

"No, no to Bush. No, no to Bremer. Yes, yes to Muqtada," chanted the protesters, mostly young men in their teens and early 20s and 30s.

The coalition has defended the decision to close down al-Hawza, one of at least 200 publications that have sprung up since Saddam's ouster nearly a year ago. It said that while it supported a free press, it would not tolerate material that foments violence against U.S. or other coalition troops.

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You know, I used to support the war for Iraq.  I used to think it was a good idea to free Iraqis from being ruled by an evil dictator, and helping spread democracy in the Middle East.  I don't think that anymore.  Watching these Iraqis dancing around the mutilated bodies of four American civilians, you have to wonder why we even bother trying to help these people.  Whatever the motives for the war in Iraq, it's true to say that NOW the U.S. is trying to establish a peaceful democracy there.  But why should America make this kind of an effort for people who, mainly, appear to hate them?  When you drag the bodies of civilians around, burn and mutilate them...this isn't political protest, it's barbarism.  When you see people dancing over freshly mutilated corpses, they don't seem like people anymore, they seem like fucking animals.  This is indeed just like Somalia all over again.

The longer the war in Iraq goes on, the less justified it seems.  No WMDs were ever found, thereby eliminating the main threat that was cited.  You hear about things like how, when Iraqis were busy looting hospitals, American soldiers were safely guarding...the Ministry of Oil.  Iraqis don't seem to really give two shits about democracy.  And American soldiers are constantly getting killed while attempting to establish a peaceful, free government in a country where people habitually burn American flags.  I say, fuck that.  There is no point in trying to establish democracy in Iraq when many of the people you're attempting to help act like total barbarians in situations like this.
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journey
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« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2004, 10:25:41 PM »

The people who committed this horrific act are intellectually and emotionally ignorant. And, just like terrorists, they have no regard for anyone but themselves.

My neighbor is in Iraq and he's only 20 years old. He's been over there since late November. I'm always worried that something bad is going to happen to him, because it seems like soldiers are being killed on a daily basis there.
I think the U.S. and the allied forces should just leave Iraq, because too many lives have been taken and the people of Iraq need to stand on their own and govern themselves.
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matt88
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« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2004, 10:41:27 PM »

Americans are in Iraq to help the people build a liveable country with a stable government and keep insurgents under control, and a few people do this, it's bloody ignorant and selfish Cry
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kockstar99
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« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2004, 09:41:03 AM »

England, Japan, also have troops there...

Fucking Sick....
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Chris Misfit
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« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2004, 12:09:02 PM »

A similar thing happened to some british in Ireland at the funeral of a man, who was killed by British soldiers. It was shown on TV.

The world is sick, every one of us.

Quote
There is no point in trying to establish democracy in Iraq when many of the people you're attempting to help act like total barbarians in situations like this.

Stop being so ignorant. Attacks have been from the minority and they were expected. You'd have to be pretty dumb, to think all Iraq's would kiss your feet.
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GnRNightrain
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« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2004, 12:46:52 PM »

Whether you agree with the war or not, this was just plain sick.  I think we cant leave.  Like Misfit said, this kind of stuff was expected.  Afterall, these are the same areas that are the breeding grounds for terrorism against Israel and the US among other places.

I think an important reason why we must not give up in the middle east, is because we have turned an eye to it in the past 30 years.  One of the main reasons that we must try and establish democracy there, is so we can try and change the atmosphere so these countries arent a breeding ground for terrorism.  Many of these countries are so poor under these dictators, that they had no hope and were so uneducated that they were so easy to persuade to become Muslim extremists.  Without changing the landscape and the start of and environment that breeds these terrorists, we can never stop terrorism.  It takes more than just trying to prevent attacks, we must try and change the breeding ground that creates these people.
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Mattman
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« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2004, 04:06:16 PM »

A similar thing happened to some british in Ireland at the funeral of a man, who was killed by British soldiers. It was shown on TV.

The world is sick, every one of us.

Quote
There is no point in trying to establish democracy in Iraq when many of the people you're attempting to help act like total barbarians in situations like this.

Stop being so ignorant. Attacks have been from the minority and they were expected. You'd have to be pretty dumb, to think all Iraq's would kiss your feet.


Hey, Misfit, this wasn't just another attack or bombing.  Those were expected.  This was a totally savage act, something that goes against Islam and in fact all standards of human decency.  I suppose the Bush administration did expect that the Iraqis would, for the most apart, at least see the Americans as liberators.  Obviously, that seems very naive at this point.  Hey, I never expected the Iraqis to kiss the feet of American soldiers, but yeah, I'll admit, I didn't expect a hundred Iraqi civilians to mutilate the bodies of Americans and string them up for all to see.  Geez, how could I be so dumb?  Roll Eyes
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Chris Misfit
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« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2004, 04:22:28 PM »

I would say that it's no worse than bombing a hospital or school.

How many american soldiers raped and murdered vietnamise women infront of their loved ones during Nam?

IGNORANCE IS BLISS!

Quote
Geez, how could I be so dumb?

I dunno. But you seem to have serious problems reading a sentence.
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kockstar99
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« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2004, 04:32:02 PM »

How many american soldiers raped and murdered vietnamise women infront of their loved ones during Nam?

IGNORANCE IS BLISS!


What does that have to do with this? Does that mean if my grandfather broke an antique vase in a store 40 years ago that i have to pay for it??? come on..
« Last Edit: April 02, 2004, 04:35:06 PM by kockstar99 » Logged
Chris Misfit
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« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2004, 04:39:25 PM »

I'd love you to go tell the families of the american victims not to worry, because it won't matter in years to come.

What kind of response is that? We're talking about human deceny!

War is a terrible thing, and it brings with it so much hatred that anything will happen. Show me 1 war, where something totally upsetting and disturbing hasn't happened. Don't be so niave.
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kockstar99
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« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2004, 04:47:53 PM »

I'd love you to go tell the families of the american victims not to worry, because it won't matter in years to come.

What kind of response is that? We're talking about human deceny!

War is a terrible thing, and it brings with it so much hatred that anything will happen. Show me 1 war, where something totally upsetting and disturbing hasn't happened. Don't be so niave.

what the hell are u talking about?
Vietnam or other wars dont have anything to do with the topic of this thread..  and for you to use the events of past wars to try to downplay the topic just shows how out of touch you are or just really stupid and will do anything to point the blame like they deserved it.. but im gonna guess you prob think that the two events are similar so trying to point out to you anything would be pointless....
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Chris Misfit
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« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2004, 04:58:58 PM »

Quote
Vietnam or other wars dont have anything to do with the topic of this thread..  

Yes they do. Each is a war.

Quote
and for you to use the events of past wars to try to downplay the topic just shows how out of touch you are or just really stupid and will do anything to point the blame like they deserved it..

When did I say anyone deserved that? Where did you read that? Stop making up bullshit. I never made any refernce that it was some kind of karma. There is no human decency in war, is all.

Didn't I also say that an act like this happened in my own country? ARE YOU READING?

What I was trying to do was point out that terrorism like that, always happens in war, and it should have been expected (how many times do I have to say this?). For it not to be expected, is a big mistake.

You're someone who has to start making accusations that I somehow said that the americans deserved it. If this is your idea of a discussion I suggest you seriously fuck off.
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MCT
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« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2004, 06:18:15 PM »

I'm with Misfit.........ditto to about 75% of it all........ ok

As for the rest of you................ Roll Eyes............
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GnRNightrain
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« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2004, 08:05:03 PM »

Well yes they were both wars, and I agree with Misfit that these kind of things are not completely out of the ordinary in regards to war.  But most countries have evolved a lot in regards to war since Vietnam (at least the US, we are almost too PC).

I do think the comparison was poor taste though

It would be as if Ireland got bombed in a terrorist attack by Al Qaeda, and then I wrote about how Ireland has done terrorist attacks against the English as a comparison.  Yah it may be relevant to some extent, but it would almost sound as if I was trying to write it as bad karma.
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« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2004, 01:31:24 AM »

I saw the most graphic pictures from that, and I was absolutely sickened.  It was horrible.  Made me very depressed and it should have had the same effect on any human being that heard anout this and saw the pictures.  I read today that the Marines are going to go in there soon and get the people that did that.  I was so happy to read that.  I hope they go in there and kill everyone of them.  I hope they destroy those fuckers.

What really pissed me off is the fact that it didn't get much coverage here in the US.  It was kept very quiet because the government doesn't want people to get scared like when the Somalia incident happened.  Seriously, this was worse than Somalia times a hundred.  This should have been a bigger topic than what is was.

What kind of sick being would drag a person from a car, beat them to near death, and then set them on fire?  And then, beating the corpse with bats and hanging bodies?  

Who the FUCK would do that? Imagine if that happened to your family member?  

I am so sick of these liberal idiots saying that Iraq's are peaceful and that Islam is peaceful etc.  These people are animals and they should all be killed.  I say turn the middle east into a fucking parking lot.
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axls_locomotive
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« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2004, 09:56:31 AM »

I saw the most graphic pictures from that, and I was absolutely sickened.  It was horrible.  Made me very depressed and it should have had the same effect on any human being that heard anout this and saw the pictures.  I read today that the Marines are going to go in there soon and get the people that did that.  I was so happy to read that.  I hope they go in there and kill everyone of them.  I hope they destroy those fuckers.

What really pissed me off is the fact that it didn't get much coverage here in the US.  It was kept very quiet because the government doesn't want people to get scared like when the Somalia incident happened.  Seriously, this was worse than Somalia times a hundred.  This should have been a bigger topic than what is was.

What kind of sick being would drag a person from a car, beat them to near death, and then set them on fire?  And then, beating the corpse with bats and hanging bodies?  

Who the FUCK would do that? Imagine if that happened to your family member?  

I am so sick of these liberal idiots saying that Iraq's are peaceful and that Islam is peaceful etc.  These people are animals and they should all be killed.  I say turn the middle east into a fucking parking lot.

This is probably one of the most offensive posts I have ever read...

Islam is a peaceful religion, the majority interpret the Koran this way...think twice before you condemn Muhammad Ali, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Cat Stevens and Michael Jackson to their coffins

Retaliation and murder isnt an option, justice is the only option.

If you descend to their level then you are no better than they are.
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DRUNK
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« Reply #16 on: April 03, 2004, 11:56:26 AM »

 ::)Please.....    Islam is not a peaceful religion, not in the Quar'an, and not in the history of it's people.  Don't make me start pulling out the evidence.  
« Last Edit: April 03, 2004, 11:57:03 AM by DRUNK » Logged
Doc Emmett Brown
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« Reply #17 on: April 03, 2004, 12:17:28 PM »

::)Please.....    Islam is not a peaceful religion, not in the Quar'an, and not in the history of it's people.  Don't make me start pulling out the evidence.  

Of course you can pull out evidence - we all know how to use google.  Almost every major religion has evidence of persecution and intolerance in its history.

Man created religion, and Man is a sick beast.  I believe what Chris Misfit was saying is:  If you're fighting against someone in war, dont expect them to act like a fluffy bunny rabbit.  And this is true regardless of the opposition's religious beliefs.
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DRUNK
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« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2004, 12:49:28 PM »

::)Please.....    Islam is not a peaceful religion, not in the Quar'an, and not in the history of it's people.  Don't make me start pulling out the evidence.  

Of course you can pull out evidence - we all know how to use google.  Almost every major religion has evidence of persecution and intolerance in its history.




 ::)Don't even go comparing Islam to any other religion.  The Quar'an specifically promotes killing+violence while the other books do not.  I am no fan of religion, but the others ARE not even close to as bad as Islam.
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« Reply #19 on: April 03, 2004, 01:04:40 PM »

::)Please.....    Islam is not a peaceful religion, not in the Quar'an, and not in the history of it's people.  Don't make me start pulling out the evidence.  

Of course you can pull out evidence - we all know how to use google.  Almost every major religion has evidence of persecution and intolerance in its history.

Man created religion, and Man is a sick beast.  I believe what Chris Misfit was saying is:  If you're fighting against someone in war, dont expect them to act like a fluffy bunny rabbit.  And this is true regardless of the opposition's religious beliefs.

True.

Christianity actually is the most sickest religion of all times but times have changed people have changed, we've gotten wiser and more civilized but you have to understand that all humans have not and is it really their fault?

I had no power of decision on where I was going to born, live or who were going to raise me, I am what I am because of everything that's around me.
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Na Naa Naa Naa Na Naa Naa...
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