The Iraq / war on terror thread

[Genesis]

Look at the internet tough guy get creative.     What is up with the name calling?

I'll call u whatever i feel like. If u don't like then bugger off.

Do you have any real arguements or just moronic statements like this?  Typical left wing nut though.  Wants to leave Iraq because of lives that are being lost.  Oh no, it's a war and we lost people...let's run!  You'd make a great general or commander.

Yeah, call me left wing or whatever, I happen to be a little more concerned about the people and ur soldiers there, rather than military strategy. It's easy for u to shoot off ur fucking mouth. Shut up unless u've actually gone there and fought urself.

[SLCPUNK]

Holy books (in this case the Holy Bible) condone many things including rape, murder, and selling your children into slavery.

I happen to believe in the Holy Bible and have read both the Old and New Testaments many times. 

Where exactly are rape, murder, and selling your children into slavery condoned?

Deuteronomy 20:10-14

As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace.  If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor.  But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town.  When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town.  But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder.  You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NAB

  If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father.  Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished.  If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

  Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear.  Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ.  (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

    The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it.  "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly.  Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death.  (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

  If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death.  (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

 When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are.  If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again.  But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her.  And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter.  If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife.  If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)



 

[SLCPUNK]

 Be ready for more violence as the resource war is only begining....

You think oil is high now, wait to see what happens in the next few years.

[Walk]

You think oil is high now, wait to see what happens in the next few years.

A temporary spike will happen and shortages of food, medicine, and fuel will occur. Then, either nature or man will establish population control, and the US will be on the top of the food chain. We have plenty of coal, oil shale, and Australia's military is too weak to protect their precious uranium. So for us, nothing's really going to change much at all. It's not like Saddam was using the oil productively anyway.

http://dieoff.org/
http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/

As for Europe, things might be just a bit more interesting...

[SLCPUNK]

You think oil is high now, wait to see what happens in the next few years.

A temporary spike will happen and shortages of food, medicine, and fuel will occur. Then, either nature or man will establish population control, and the US will be on the top of the food chain.

Nature will take control, not man.

We are over the bell curve and consume four barrels for every one we use. Hence the resource war in Iraq.

Your "logic" is flawwed, as usual. There will be no "temporary" spike. When oil leans out, prices will continue towards the sky and the global economy will poop itself. If you somehow think that America will remain at the top of the food chain, I'd like some of what you are smoking.

If you actually believe what you type, then guys like you will die off first, wondering where all your leaders have gone when there is no electricity, food, or water.

Oil runs the world, and the amount of power we gobble up can hardly be sustained by the sources you listed. Not at all.

I am very familar with these sites. And if you had bothered to read them at all you would know that not one person is claiming anything that you are. These are experts including bankers, oilmen, doctors, and scientists. Some have even said "pray" for a solution....All have concluded that there is no other fuel supply for us that can sustain our way of life like oil does.

In other words: You are full of shit.

[Genesis]

Deuteronomy 20:10-14

As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace.  If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor.  But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town.  When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town.  But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder.  You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NAB

  If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father.  Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished.  If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

  Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear.  Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ.  (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

    The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it.  "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly.  Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death.  (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

  If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death.  (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

 When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are.  If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again.  But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her.  And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter.  If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife.  If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

I believe that the old testament was meant for a different people in a different time. You shouldn't misinterpret it. The new testament is what u should be quoting.

[SLCPUNK]

The ten commandments are from the old testament...guess we should not use those either right?

[Genesis]

The ten commandments are from the old testament...guess we should not use those either right?

Well, I'm no biblical scholar. 

[Walk]

All of the Bible is accurate and useful, and it always has been. Secular Humanists need to decant their pseudomorality and recognize the truth, but they would have to give up their precious egos. The truth is, God set some people up to be destroyed, to be given up to the chosen ones. This is book of Romans stuff here, Christianity 101.

Even scientists believe things go by laws, like gravity and entropy, and these can be predicted. Everything we do can be attributed to neural pathways, enzymes, and hormones. To one who is omnipotent, who exists outside of time sees all of these, knows what we will do, and there is no free will. We're bound by these chemicals that facilitate our existance, so we're incapable of true morality outside of God's word, the Bible.

Also, anyone with any experience in law knows that killing someone in a war is not murder.

[SLCPUNK]

Please....seek help.

You are nuts.

[Charity Case]

All of the Bible is accurate and useful, and it always has been. Secular Humanists need to decant their pseudomorality and recognize the truth, but they would have to give up their precious egos. The truth is, God set some people up to be destroyed, to be given up to the chosen ones. This is book of Romans stuff here, Christianity 101.

Even scientists believe things go by laws, like gravity and entropy, and these can be predicted. Everything we do can be attributed to neural pathways, enzymes, and hormones. To one who is omnipotent, who exists outside of time sees all of these, knows what we will do, and there is no free will. We're bound by these chemicals that facilitate our existance, so we're incapable of true morality outside of God's word, the Bible.

Also, anyone with any experience in law knows that killing someone in a war is not murder.

Wow, you are a real piece of work.  Most of the Bible is made up of fables (old testament) and exagerration (new testament).  There is very very little truth in the Bible...and this is coming from somone who was raised Catholic (but am agnostic now).  If you actually believe that ththere is a God that controls all your movememtns and decisions and that there is no free will, you are a pathetic religious nut.  Get a grip!

slc, the old testament is not meant to be read literally...it is mostly fables.  If you can quote the new testament then that would make your point.  Cain never killed Abel, there was no Gareden of Eden and there was no Noah's Ark.  Joana (sp?) never rode in a Whale).  Christians live by the "Ten Commandments", but I doubt very much whether they ever actually existed.  I bet it was just a story told to make a point (like most of the old testament). 

[SLCPUNK]

That is my point.

They use what they want of it, and disregard the rest.

Must I hold your hand with everything?

[POPmetal]

Proving once again...you are not honest.

What's that line of yours SLC?

"Pot meet black..."

While I realize you consider yourself among the most objective and honest on this board, you're anything but.?

According to you, Sean Hannity and Bill O' Reilly just spin things all the time but Michael Moore and Al Franken call it right down the line.

You rant about the conservative bias of Fox News while claiming to be unaware of the liberal leanings of other networks.

You praise Al-Jazeera and echo their propaganda of the west "killing their children" as the prime reason for Islamic terrorism.

Not that you could ever be accused of being friendly to religion.? In your book, if anyone's faith teaches against homosexuality, it's just an excuse for bigotry.? Never mind the fact that would include all of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

You relish jumping all over conservative religious leaders and labeling them hypocrites.? But Jesse Jackson gets a pass, his extra-marital affairs notwithstanding.

Naturally we all know the one guy who will never get a pass as far as you are concerned.? You say some would support Bush even if he "ate a baby on live TV."? The flip-side of that coin is Bush could save a dozen babies from a burning orphanage and you would find something wrong with it.

When Bush's ratings are down you are quick to point it out.? When they are up you don't make a peep.

Too bad the same can't be said for Iraq War - the Grand Poobha of your soapboxes.? You and others of your sort continually rehash the question of why the U.S. went to war, yet never examine why you are asking the question.

Is it the fallen U.S. soldiers?

The whining of you and your ilk has always been in stark contrast to the vast majority of military personnel who support the war.? An exception to the rule comes along in the form of Cindy Sheehan and you milk it for all its worth, while dismissing the opinions of most military families.

Is it the Iraqi casualties?

You and the left in general can't say enough about the U.S. being there for oil instead of liberation, while at the same time acting like you are some great champion of human rights.

What's ironic is you and many of the most shrill voices against this war are just peachy-keen on abortion.? You're fine with an unborn child being killed but expect people to believe you really give a damn about people halfway around the world; many of whom wouldn't mind you and every other American dead.

I don't care how many flags you have in your yard, you're are a phoney.? A fraud.? A bunko-artist.? Not to mention a whiny little bitch.

You may fool some here, especially those from other countries - due in no small part to you sticking your tongue up their ass all the time.?

But you ain't fooling anybody here so get off your high horse.

Punk.

I'm glad somebody finally said this. I basically stopped posting here because I didn't want to waste my time arguing with intransigent ideologues. Besides, SLC is merely preaching to the choir here (most of it French anyway, so it's not like they can do anything to change the US political balance). He clearly has a lot of spare time to waste, but I wish he would do something more productive with it, like?maybe Michael Moore style "documentaries" or another no rating Air America show. We could all use more looney anti-American propaganda to drive independent minded voters to support the right. Moore and Al Franken were probably the number one reason Bush won the last election by such a big margin. Now if only we could put SLC on a pedestal and get his spin-laden message out to America ...

[Pazzuzu]

Call me kooky but I don't buy this whole "running out of oil" business for a minute.

While its theoretically possible to run out of every last drop of oil on the planet, it just ain't gonna happen.? At least not in our lifetime.

As the need arises, oil reserves formally off limits will be tapped and new ones will be found.

That said, I do think that certain things relating to the oil market itself could be just about as harmful as if the world really did use up all the oil.

[Pazzuzu]

Considering this thread isn't about religion I'll try and respond just this one time...

Deuteronomy 20:10-14

As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace.? If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor.? But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town.? When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town.? But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder.? You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

As for reasons that will be shown, it is best to also consider the King James Version; it being the most accurate of all available translations -

10 When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace unto it.

11 And it shall be, if it make thee answer of peace, and open unto thee, then it shall be, that all the people that is found therein shall be tributaries unto thee, and they shall serve thee.

12 And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it:

13 And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword:

Under the Law of Moses as given by the Lord, wars were only to be fought in the defense of justice, the defense of the homeland, and the suppression of evil.

It should be remembered that, while the Lord "esteemth all flesh as one," the righteous are favored of God.? ?The verse at hand deals with the Canaanites who, having rejected the word of God and Isreal's overture of peace, had become "ripe in iniquity" and therefore came under a sentence of death by God.? The moral degeneracy of Cannan was well known and the Lord commanded Israel to avoid spiritual contamination.

Israel's treatment their enemies was actually quite merciful, especially compared to surrounding nations.? When waging an attack, the Cannanites would kill all men, as well as married women.? Only young virgins were spared.? With Israel, those captured would be dealt with under their laws relating to servitude as explained below.

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NAB

? If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father.? Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

It always helps, rather than isolating a single verse, to be aware of the context surrounding it.? This is especially helpful when there seems to be conflicting biblical translations.

In connection with the seduction or forcible rape of a woman (it being important to clarify) a number of cases must be distinguished -

1. Whether or not she was betrothed, i.e. engaged, this having the same significance as a wife.
2. If she was betrothed, whether the event took place within the town or in an open field.

If a betrothed woman allowed a man to have intercourse with her, both the man and the woman were to be led out of the city and stoned to death; the woman because she had consented to the deed, the man because he had assaulted his neighbor's betrothed wife.

If a man met a betrothed woman in a field and "laid hold" on her, he alone was to die, and nothing was to be done to the girl because there were no witnesses to her call for help.? Therfore it was forcible rape.

Lastly as to the verse at hand, it is regarding a virgin who is not betrothed, i.e. a man has no claim on her.? Therefore if the man and the woman were discovered and convicted, this very likely taking place only within the town, it is to be assumed that it was consensual or the girl would have cried out for help.

It is in this case that the man was to pay the father of the girl fifty shekels of silver, for the reproach brought upon him and his house.? In addition, he was to marry the girl without ever being allowed to divorce her.

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished.? If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

First, we have a crucial difference in our respective translations.? The one I refer to is as follows:

If a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall surely be put to death.

Additionally, the context of the word "slave" used in this particular version needs clarification.? Other translations use the word "servant."? Either way, the following is useful -

One of the principles under the Mosaic Law was "thou shalt steal."? Among the most precious things anyone has is their personal liberty.? To steal one's liberty was considered a serious theft.? Consquently, permanent ownership of slaves was not allowed unless the individual chose to be a servant for life.?

As illustrated here, the "slave" in Israel was more like a servant.? And by law he had to be freed after seven years unless he voluntarily chose to remain in servitude.? As servants in Israel were on almost equal status with hired servants, many men were willing to, at least temporarilly, forfeit freedom for security.

[Pazzuzu]

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear.? Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ.? (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

Again, context is key.

Many of those who Paul wrote to, the Ephesians as well as others, were relatively new Christians.? As with most societies of the day, slavery or servitude was the norm.

Paul's first mission was not social change, but rather spiritual conversion.? Once that was accomplished, temporal matters could be addressed.

The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it.? "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly.? Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)

The above, being similar enough to the KJV, deals not with temporal servitude per se, but rather all people's relative accountability to the Lord.? In other words, the context is spiritual.

Having ransomed with His own life mankind, who were slaves to Satan and under the bands of physical and spiritual death; the Lord becomes the Master, we His servants.? When the Master returns again, He will deal with each person according to their knowledge.

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death.? (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

It is important to understand that the people of Israel lived under a system of theological government.? Therefore, you cannot draw parallels with modern systems of government today.? Nevertheless, the citizens of ancient Israel did not hold the taking of a life lightly.? After all, "thou shalt not kill" was also one of the ten commandments.

Since the Law of Moses was theologically based, i.e. based on the law and worship of God; acting as a medium, fortuneteller or engaging in witchcraft was - like idolatry - the same as treason is in today's secular governments.? Therfore, it was a capital crime punishable by death.? ?

The first two commandments centered around the worship of the Lord - Israel's Bridegroom.? And as such, idolatry,witchcraft, etc. was basically spiritual adultery.? All citizens of Israel had accepted and made a covenant to live under the Law of Moses at Mt. Sinai.? Thus, the act of fortunetelling or witchcraft was deliberate breaking of the law.? The offenders were executed following a judicial death sentence; not murdered.

? If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death.? (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

Once more, though it may seem harsh by the lax secular standards of today, adultery was a very serious offense within the theologically-based Law of Moses.? The covenant of marriage was the heavenly institution which God provided under which His mortal children were to reproduce themselves.

As with idolatry, adultery was among the capital crimes forbidden by the Law of Moses; and therefore was punishable by death.? Again, a judicial death sentence; not murder.

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are.? If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again.? But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her.? And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter.? If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife.? If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

Since we're jumping back and forth her between versions, the KJV will again be considred -

And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do.

8 If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her.

9 And if he have betrothed her unto his son, he shall deal with her after the manner of daughters.

10 If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish.

11 And if he do not these three unto her, then shall she go out free without money.

The meaning of the phrase "to sell her as a maidservant" in verse 7 meant that a father could arrange for the marriage of his daughter.? This is evident from the "betrothal" mentioned in verses 8 and 9.

The prospective husband could not use her as a slave, i.e. "she shall not go out as the menservants do."  If the prospective husand was not pleased with the new bride, the law guaranteed her rights.? This legal guarantee was in sharp contrast to the practice of most other people whose women were viewed as property to be bargained away at the whim of men.

[Pazzuzu]

Wow, you are a real piece of work.? Most of the Bible is made up of fables (old testament) and exagerration (new testament).? There is very very little truth in the Bible...and this is coming from somone who was raised Catholic (but am agnostic now).? If you actually believe that ththere is a God that controls all your movememtns and decisions and that there is no free will, you are a pathetic religious nut.? Get a grip!

slc, the old testament is not meant to be read literally...it is mostly fables.? If you can quote the new testament then that would make your point.? Cain never killed Abel, there was no Gareden of Eden and there was no Noah's Ark.? Joana (sp?) never rode in a Whale).? Christians live by the "Ten Commandments", but I doubt very much whether they ever actually existed.? I bet it was just a story told to make a point (like most of the old testament).?

You seem pretty sure of yourself.? In reality, you and others who doubt the biblical record have no more proof of it being false than believers do of it being true.? While there is indeed much symbolism in both Testaments, and some things are not in the literal sense, everything you listed above is held as true; i.e., they actually happened.

Except, of course, for God "controlling our movements."? That is not in accordance of the freedom to choose good or evil which God has given.

[SLCPUNK]

Call me kooky but I don't buy this whole "running out of oil" business for a minute.

While its theoretically possible to run out of every last drop of oil on the planet, it just ain't gonna happen.  At least not in our lifetime.

As the need arises, oil reserves formally off limits will be tapped and new ones will be found.

That said, I do think that certain things relating to the oil market itself could be just about as harmful as if the world really did use up all the oil.

Nobody said it woudl run out in our lifetime, although it may. The problem is that our world depends entirely on oil. We have an oil based economy that would colapse well before the end of oil. We are about to be on the other side of the bell curve. The USA oil production peaked in the 70's and has been declining ever since. Why would the world supply be any different? It too operates on a bell curve.

Worldwide demand (as population grows) is outpacing worldwide production now. We are already behind.

Chenney said this in 1999:

"By some estimates, there will be an average of two-percent
annual growth in global oil demand over the years ahead,
along with, conservatively, a three-percent natural decline
in production from existing reserves. That means by 2010
we will need on the order of an additional 50 million barrels a
day."

Another report by Chenney said this in 2001:

"The most significant difference between now and a decade
ago is the extraordinarily rapid erosion of spare capacities at
critical segments of energy chains. Today, shortfalls appear
to be endemic. Among the most extraordinary of these
losses of spare capacity is in the oil arena. "

A March 2005 report prepared for the US Department of Energy confirmed dire warnings of the investment banking community.  "The Mitigation of the Peaking of World Oil Production," the report observed:

"Without timely mitigation, world supply/demand balance will
be achieved through massive demand destruction
(shortages), accompanied by huge oil price increases, both
of which would create a long period of significant economic
hardship worldwide.

Waiting until world conventional oil production peaks before
initiating crash program mitigation leaves the world with a
significant liquid fuel deficit for two decades or longer."

and

"The problems associated with world oil production peaking
will not be temporary, and past 'energy crisis' experience will
provide relatively little guidance. The challenge of oil peaking
deserves immediate, serious attention, if risks are to be fully
understood and mitigation begun on a timely basis.

. . . the world has never faced a problem like this. Without
massive mitigation more than a decade before the fact, the
problem will be pervasive and will not be temporary.
Previous energy transitions were gradual and evolutionary.
Oil peaking will be abrupt and revolutionary."



French speculators have predicted the price of oil to be as high as 380 per barrel by 2015.

The energy crisis in the 70's was caused by as little as a 5% dip in oil causing it to quadruple. Only 5%.

If we can't keep up already, and more oil has not been found now, world demand is increasing, as well as population, what do you think is going to happen?

[SLCPUNK]

What a load of crap.

How can you really believe what you are saying?

Jeeesh.

I'll take the words of scholars over you anyday....

[pilferk]

most governments believed saddam had WMDs. that's why the UN passed so many resolutions.

not that it matters. who cares what france and other nations thought. they were being bribed via food for oil.

all that matters is that the leaders of the US (both parties) strongly believed that he had them.

Again, most governments did NOT believe Saddam had WMD's.? That's history.? You're trying to rewrite it.

Most governments thought, based on their intel, he MIGHT POSSIBLY MAYBE have WMD's, and, therefore voted on UN resolutions allowing inspectors to go back to look....but balked at anything more forceful than resolutions BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT CERTAIN OF ANYTHING.? They passed resolutions threatening force IF WMD'S were proven to exist.? No proof, no force.? There wasn't any proof because there weren't any WMD's.

You're assigning certainty when history says there wasn't any.

And, whatever you may want to think of the other countries reason for their beliefs, they were right...now weren't they.? So casting reckless accusations around about WHY they believed what they did is pretty petty.

And yes, the US leaders, in BOTH parties, believed he had them...based on the flawed, INCOMPLETE intel that was being passed to them through this administration, and the VERY top of the Intel agencies.? Not exactly what I'd be bragging about....

I have no earthly idea why so many of the conservative posters on this board seem to want to rewrite this particular piece of history...or, rather, I know WHY they want to re-write it, but I don't understand HOW they think they can....

i'm am NOT "assigning certainty". i'm simply stating that many governments believed he had them. did you forget about all the nations that have joined us in the fight in iraq?

?

"All the nations"?? What...all 14 of 'em?? And of those 14, how many actually have a functioning, credible intelligence agency (other than "get their intelligence directly, and almost entirely, from the US)? And how many of those nations are completely dependant on the US for aid?

And you cite "oil for food" being the basis for decisions being made in the UN?

Just for posterity, here's the list of "coalition members":
 
Bulgaria
Denmark
El Salvador
Estonia 
Hungary 
Italy 
Kazakhstan
Latvia
Netherlands
Poland
Slovakia
Spain  11
Thailand  2
Ukraine  18