The Iraq / war on terror thread

[RichardNixon]

you guys dont know what you're talking about.
How could you possibly know what his capabilities were or were not?

So you have to trust someone to make those calls. Or you are all dead. hiding in your basement somewhere waiting on the all clear while radiation ?rains down. ? people out there want to do this and wouldnt hesitate if they could pull it off.
Its real shit that i would rather be on the offensive preventing than the defensive waiting for.
If its all the same to you, if you DONT MIND.
Dont get complacent because its been 4 years.

So I trust my democratically elected government to do whatever it has to.
You gotta another idea, Im still waitin.
cause all you have said is......NOTHING

Find Osama? please, hes dead.
Go to Syria? their next Im sure

And you'll respond with "he wasnt democratically elected, he stole the election"
"americans approval of him has dropped in the recent polls."
blah blah blah
meanwhile al queada is searching the world over for some state sponsored financing and cover to allow them to do the unspeakable ..again.

And someone is trying to do something about it and you whine.....
Thank God the real youth of this country has risen to the challenge, voluntarily.
God help us all if your kind was the norm rather than the exception.
You're a minority, with no ideas.

Wow, that was very inspiring, You know what Shades? You have been right all along. How could I have been so blind? I can see now, how vital and important it is that we finish the mission. Your reasoning is impeccable and your intellect is profound beyond words. I think I will leave my house now and go sign up at the nearest recruiter, to fight for freedom and democracy!

[sandman]

Simple Question:

If you support this war and are between the age of 18-35, why are you on this board now reading this? If you think this war is worth it, why don't you enlist in the army and go "fight for freedom"? The best way to know if you really support a war is if you are willing to fight in it. The only war in recent times I would fight in is WW2.

that is an un-american statement.

it's a childish, and simple-minded argument. and it's not one that you should throw out in these boards in an attempt to diminish those you disagree with.

you have no idea what people's personal situations are on these boards. they could be handicapped, they could have family committments, etc.

so to try to demean those of us on this board that are for the war by making that statement is really low.

and just ask a soldier if your statement holds any weight, and the large majority would say no.

That's a nice non-answer and a way to run around the question, by throwing it right back. So it's all well in good to let the others fight for a war that you support, but not you. Sure there are people who are handicapped, but most everyone one who supports the war between the ages of 18-35 would be listed 1-A if we still had the draft.

You just don?t get it. Your argument is weak.

People choose not to enlist for a variety of reasons. And you don?t know the personal situations of anyone on this board. So you shouldn?t try to demean anyone when you don?t know what the fuck you?re talking about.

If I could, I would have no interest in being a cop. Does that mean I can?t support law enforcement? Of course not. Your argument makes no sense. 

[RichardNixon]

It is your argument that makes no sense. Any other time that the US was at war during the time of the draft, if you were between the ages of 18-35, if you were able-bodied, you had to go. Students and the privileged (like Bush and Cheney) got off, but non-students and working class middle-American kids had to go. No one gave a damn what your personal considerations were. The cop analogy is weak. We have enough cops for that to be a voluntary profession, whereas the military is in short supply and recruiters are not meeting their quota. We need to fight for freedom and democracy after all...

And you still have yet to answer my original question.?Saying you believe in a war and then not fighting in it, while giving some lame cop analogy doesn't cut it buster.

[pilferk]

you guys dont know what you're talking about.
How could you possibly know what his capabilities were or were not?

Are you serious? ?Really?

We knew. ?There are reports all over the place detailing it. We knew it when we "turned our attention to them" after Afghanistan, We knew it before we went in, and UN inspectors, on the ground, confirmed it.? Hell, they found a cache of ordinance that theoretically could have broken the "limit" we imposed by about 25 MILES and we made him destroy them.? Seriously....how can you make claims so obviously contradicted by history?

?But, again, given your propensity for forming opinions based on bullshit, rather than fact, I'm not surprised you'd say so. ?It is YOU, more and more, who obviously don't know what YOU'RE talking about. ?And you make it more apparent with every line you write.

So, I say it again. ?Prove he had the means. ?But, of course, you can't.  You never seem to be able to....

So you have to trust someone to make those calls. Or you are all dead. hiding in your basement somewhere waiting on the all clear while radiation ?rains down. ? people out there want to do this and wouldnt hesitate if they could pull it off.
Its real shit that i would rather be on the offensive preventing than the defensive waiting for.
If its all the same to you, if you DONT MIND.
Dont get complacent because its been 4 years.

Says the guy who says that our homeland security procedures are top notch and working well. ? ?You just can't get your stories straight, can ya?

When are you going to get it through your head that Iraq is not Al Queada. ?That our homeland security, and the terrorist threat against us, had NO CONNECTION to Iraq. ?Unless, of course, you can prove otherwise. ?Unless you can prove what the 9/11 commission, and countless others (ncluding this administration), have been unable to.? Given your inability to prove ANYTHING else you've said, when asked, you'll excuse me if I don't hold my breath.

So I trust my democratically elected government to do whatever it has to.
You gotta another idea, Im still waitin.
cause all you have said is......NOTHING

Liar. ?There have been other ideas presented, numerous times. ?And yet, you ignore them, and continue to claim there haven't been. ?Politico-amnesia strikes again.

Find Osama? please, hes dead.

Prove it. ?'Cause our government sure doesn't share your opinion. Nor do many others. ?More bullshit over facts.

Go to Syria? their next Im sure

Prove it. ?'Cause our government sure hasn't shown that's likely. ?More bullshit over facts.

And you'll respond with "he wasnt democratically elected, he stole the election"
"americans approval of him has dropped in the recent polls."
blah blah blah
meanwhile al queada is searching the world over for some state sponsored financing and cover to allow them to do the unspeakable ..again.

Typical misdirection. And if we're worried about Al Queada, perhaps we should actually direct our resources toward stopping THEM, huh?

And someone is trying to do something about it and you whine.....
Thank God the real youth of this country has risen to the challenge, voluntarily.
God help us all if your kind was the norm rather than the exception.
You're a minority, with no ideas.

No, sir, they've done little about it. ?Iraq had nothing to do with Al Queada, or any terrorist threat to us. ?But you continue to spout the bullshit propaganda (which, FYI, has been proven untrue) rather than history. ?Not surprising, given YOUR history.

As for who is the "norm", if you think YOU are the norm...I'd like to see some proof of that.

And I'd like to see some proof that those arguing against the war are in the minority, today, as well.

Because the facts in evidence, my friend, clearly don't support that position. ?More bullshit. ?

But I think we're all begining to expect that from you, now.

[Jamie]

You gotta another idea, Im still waitin.
cause all you have said is......NOTHING

That's because it's not the job of the American people to come up with a solution, it's George Bush's job, and he's still yet to come up with a satisfactory plan. I mean that's a weak argument: Liberal: "I am not satisfied with George Bush's plans in Iraq." Conservative: "Well then YOU come up with a plan." It just doesn't work that way.

you guys dont know what you're talking about.
How could you possibly know what his capabilities were or were not?

Exactly, then what is your argument for going to war? You've just gone against what so many conservatives have been saying, that Saddam definitely could have launched an attack on the US or anyone else for that matter. You've just defied your own logic.

So you have to trust someone to make those calls. Or you are all dead. hiding in your basement somewhere waiting on the all clear while radiation ?rains down.

Using simple logic based on that statement how do you think the Iraqis feel? And not the terrorists that may or may not be based in Iraq but the average citizens?

Its real shit that i would rather be on the offensive preventing than the defensive waiting for.
If its all the same to you, if you DONT MIND.
Dont get complacent because its been 4 years.

Noone's advocating not trying to prevent terrorism at all. Rather what people are advocating should be stopped is invading nations that are of no immediate threat to the Western world to discover WMDs that never existed, and when that is revealed having a sudden, spur of the moment shift in why they are there in the first place. And noone's getting complacent but to many it's quite frustrating that George Bush is off flag waving in Iraq when America's homeland security is still not up to par.

Find Osama? please, hes dead.

Really?! Prove it.

Go to Syria? their next Im sure

And who told you that?

And you'll respond with "he wasnt democratically elected, he stole the election"
"americans approval of him has dropped in the recent polls."
blah blah blah

OK I'm not saying that Bush stole the election but I'm saying I think that America's voting system should be changed, to the number of votes actually cast wins the election instead of this state stuff. And Bush's approval ratings have experienced vast depreciation since the war started. Blah blah blah.

meanwhile al queada is searching the world over for some state sponsored financing and cover to allow them to do the unspeakable ..again.

But I thought you said Bin Laden is already dead, how can he be dead and still be planning more attacks at the same time?! ?

And someone is trying to do something about it and you whine.....

I know, terrible isn't it?

You're a minority, with no ideas.

OK yeah.

[shades]

all that and not one idea.
Sit and wait to be attacked again huh?
unacceptable

I dont know what I want but I know what I dont want.
Sounds like a woman

[pilferk]

all that and not one idea.
Sit and wait to be attacked again huh?
unacceptable

All that, and not one iota of evidence or proof.
Unacceptable

And again, liar.? We just get tired of repeating our ideas, since, 2 weeks later, you just accuse us of not having them.? Politico-amnesia.? You really are the poster boy.....

I dont know what I want but I know what I dont want.
Sounds like a woman

How incredibly juvenile...but not unexpected coming from you.? Unable to actually form a decent argument, so will resort to hurling misogynisitic, droll, dreadfully unoriginal, insults.? Your MO is becoming more and more obvious.

In most forums, you'd have been labeled a troll by now.? Not that, at this point, anyone actually takes you seriously....

[SLCPUNK]

Wow, that was very inspiring, You know what Shades? You have been right all along. How could I have been so blind? I can see now, how vital and important it is that we finish the mission. Your reasoning is impeccable and your intellect is profound beyond words. I think I will leave my house now and go sign up at the nearest recruiter, to fight for freedom and democracy!

Better yet, why isn't Shades signing up to defend our freedoms?

Why isn't Shades putting his life on the limb to nation build and spread the word of W?

[sandman]

It is your argument that makes no sense. Any other time that the US was at war during the time of the draft, if you were between the ages of 18-35, if you were able-bodied, you had to go. Students and the privileged (like Bush and Cheney) got off, but non-students and working class middle-American kids had to go. No one gave a damn what your personal considerations were. The cop analogy is weak. We have enough cops for that to be a voluntary profession, whereas the military is in short supply and recruiters are not meeting their quota. We need to fight for freedom and democracy after all...

And you still have yet to answer my original question.?Saying you believe in a war and then not fighting in it, while giving some lame cop analogy doesn't cut it buster.

What point are you trying to make? You want to suggest I?m a hypocrite? You want to call me a pussy? Be a fuckin man and just say what?s on your mind.

I?m making a simple point and you just don?t get it. I don?t share very much personal information about myself on public message boards. And no one should be asked to give details like that. And the fact that you can?t understand that speaks volumes.

And you started talking in circles when you mentioned ?voluntary profession?. I don?t think I have to spell it out for you, but ?you really didn?t make a point there.

[pilferk]

Better yet, why isn't Shades signing up to defend our freedoms?

Why isn't Shades putting his life on the limb to nation build and spread the word of W?

Ahhhh...you musta missed it.? Shades insists he was formerly in the military.

http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/board/index.php?topic=24094.msg423561#msg423561

[RichardNixon]

It is your argument that makes no sense. Any other time that the US was at war during the time of the draft, if you were between the ages of 18-35, if you were able-bodied, you had to go. Students and the privileged (like Bush and Cheney) got off, but non-students and working class middle-American kids had to go. No one gave a damn what your personal considerations were. The cop analogy is weak. We have enough cops for that to be a voluntary profession, whereas the military is in short supply and recruiters are not meeting their quota. We need to fight for freedom and democracy after all...

And you still have yet to answer my original question.?Saying you believe in a war and then not fighting in it, while giving some lame cop analogy doesn't cut it buster.

What point are you trying to make? You want to suggest I?m a hypocrite? You want to call me a pussy? Be a fuckin man and just say what?s on your mind.

I?m making a simple point and you just don?t get it. I don?t share very much personal information about myself on public message boards. And no one should be asked to give details like that. And the fact that you can?t understand that speaks volumes.

And you started talking in circles when you mentioned ?voluntary profession?. I don?t think I have to spell it out for you, but ?you really didn?t make a point there.

I never called you any names at all, nor was I speaking to you directly, so don't put words in my mouth or twist anything I said. And no one is asking you to post any personal information about yourself on the board. Two things you pulled out of the air.

When I first posed the question, I was speaking of my disdain for armchair warriors in general. It is you that made it personal and accused me of calling you a "hypocrite" and a "pussy."

The police force has always been a voluntary profession. During the draft, having to fight in a war was not. I am very well aware that we no longer have a draft.

[SLCPUNK]

How incredibly juvenile...but not unexpected coming from you.  Unable to actually form a decent argument, so will resort to hurling misogynisitic, droll, dreadfully unoriginal, insults.  Your MO is becoming more and more obvious.

In most forums, you'd have been labeled a troll by now.  Not that, at this point, anyone actually takes you seriously....

Although I do not take Shades seriously (More of a Walk lite) I would consider him a troll to be ignored at this point-seriously.

In the meantime I'm putting a few things around and asking that you stay off the boards for three hours. When you come back please open the windows for at least 30 minutes.

Thanks.

[SLCPUNK]

Ahhhh...you musta missed it.  Shades insists he was formerly in the military.

http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/board/index.php?topic=24094.msg423561#msg423561

Oh really? Get a load of that. Where were you stationed Shades?

[shades]

In most forums, you'd have been labeled a troll by now.? Not that, at this point, anyone actually takes you seriously....

first, be thankful it IS a forum or I would have made you my little bitch by now.
BUT i digress.

The three or four or whatever it is of you guys just keep promoting each others views, are of age to join the armed services.
What is it in particular that you would fight for?
Or is that beyond the realm of reality in your worlds?

If you, and when you, have been around a little longer you will realize that due to circumstances beyond our control, from time to? time we have to fight a war to maintain our security, and or freedoms. Its part of history.
You dont decide when thats necessary, you dont decide when you are shooting at people that dont deserve to be shot at. You dont decide when we leave, you dont decide when were done.
its called power through discipline, and the notion that that is a blind sheep like novelty
is not American.
Not in any sense of the word, during a time of war... Its does harm to the cause, evokes doubt worldwide.
These people that you disagree with who are doing the ordering to arms are either democratically elected officials, or people that have paid their dues in the military and are approved by these democratically elected officials.

if you dont like the system, work to change it, or move.
Anything else is unamerican and counterproductive.
The avenue is there for you to either run for office or campaign till midnight 365 days a year for the person who shares your views.
But,
when that process is over, you trust in the powers voted in by your fellow Americans, the majority rules.
Its a great system, the greatest in my eyes, try it out.
And theres 200,000 +- young men and women your age in the theatre that agree.
You guys are wrong this time.
you have lots of company, but your wrong the same

[pilferk]

first, be thankful it IS a forum or I would have made you my little bitch by now.
BUT i digress.

Once again, unable to make an actual argument, so fall back on threats of physical violence.? ?Droll and immature, yet again.   

I assure you shades, you're not nearly capable of it, in any event.?

The three or four or whatever it is of you guys just keep promoting each others views, are of age to join the armed services.
What is it in particular that you would fight for?
Or is that beyond the realm of reality in your worlds?

Actually, I'm rather too old at this point.? At 31, enlisting isn't really an option.?

What is it I would fight for?? Well, The Afghanistan War was a pretty good cause....

If you, and when you, have been around a little longer you will realize that due to circumstances beyond our control, from time to? time we have to fight a war to maintain our security, and or freedoms. Its part of history.
You dont decide when thats necessary, you dont decide when you are shooting at people that dont deserve to be shot at. You dont decide when we leave, you dont decide when were done.
its called power through discipline, and the notion that that is a blind sheep like novelty
is not American.

More misdirection and bullshit.? Typical.

Not in any sense of the word, during a time of war... Its does harm to the cause, evokes doubt worldwide.

Proof, please? Oh, right...you're not capable of that.

These people that you disagree with who are doing the ordering to arms are either democratically elected officials, or people that have paid their dues in the military and are approved by these democratically elected officials.

True enough.? And, as part of the freedoms provided to us by our forefathers (you know, those that ESTABLISHED the system you're talking about so lovingly), freedom to criticize those leaders is our right...and, in their eyes, our civic duty.

if you dont like the system, work to change it, or move.
Anything else is unamerican and counterproductive.
The avenue is there for you to either run for office or campaign till midnight 365 days a year for the person who shares your views.

Bullshit and misdirection again.? And who's to say we DON'T work to change it?

Oh, right....

But,
when that process is over, you trust in the powers voted in by your fellow Americans, the majority rules.

First off, were that the case, Gore would have been president...lest you forget.

Secondly, remind me who it was that criticized the Clinton administration so harshly while he was in office?? Who was that again?

Oh, right....the same men you are insisting deserve our undying loyalty and faith.

More bullshit.

Its a great system, the greatest in my eyes, try it out.
And theres 200,000 +- young men and women your age in the theatre that agree.

It is a great system.? Thank God it's not NEARLY the system YOU think it is, though.

You guys are wrong this time.
you have lots of company, but your wrong the same

Proof?

Oh, right.? Bullshit and misdirection are all you offer up.

[gilld1]

Yes, I am sure that all 200k over in Iraq are just thrilled about being there and risking their lives for Bush's noble cause. ?Well at least Bush finally unveiled his Plan for Victory although it's just a hair late!

[shades]

Actually, I'm rather too old at this point.? At 31, enlisting isn't really an option.?

to the contrary, if you were as passionate about fighting as you are about not fighting they could use the help, 31 is perfect.

What is it I would fight for?? Well, The Afghanistan War was a pretty good cause....

So you see an army that can function where the soldiers say,
Afghanistan, Im there,
Iraq? Ill pass
We have now established that you are older than that, wiser, id hope.

 More misdirection and bullshit.? Typical.

typical huh?
Do you know how annoying and condescending that is?

Not in any sense of the word, during a time of war... Its does harm to the cause, evokes doubt worldwide.
 

Proof, please? Oh, right...you're not capable of that.

You dont see doubt in this country resonating accross the world?
If you were to stand in front of a soldier who just came back and say what you write here, a soldier that just watched some of his buddies get blown up or mamed he would hand you your heart and let you watch it take its last beat, you do know that dont you.?
Doesnt that bother you a little?

 

True enough.? And, as part of the freedoms provided to us by our forefathers (you know, those that ESTABLISHED the system you're talking about so lovingly), freedom to criticize those leaders is our right...and, in their eyes, our civic duty.

you got me there, keep it flowing if it makes you happy

Bullshit and misdirection again.? And who's to say we DON'T work to change it?

good for you then, be passionate and best of luck
 

Secondly, remind me who it was that criticized the Clinton administration so harshly while he was in office?? Who was that again?
 

The only thing I critizized Clinton for was being a liar, under oath no less.
And his inaction on multiple issues due to ditractions unbecoming of a man.

 

?
It is a great system.? Thank God it's not NEARLY the system YOU think it is, though.

I recognize the faults, I just dont verbalize it to the point of whining


?

 

[Prometheus]

so what was your unit where were you stationed? what did you specialise in?


as for me... ive put my military career on hold because id rather get my school finished yet again.... then go for it..... and reserves is not an option with teh work load that i have for school.... id do both half assed

[pilferk]

to the contrary, if you were as passionate about fighting as you are about not fighting they could use the help, 31 is perfect.

And you were in the Army?

Only Active Army and Active Navy would take me, and max age is 34.

I'm getting a bit long in the tooth for them. ?The knee surgery 15 years ago doesn't help, either.

In addition, I couldn't live on a grunts salary. ?Neither could my family.

But you seem to be pretty passionate about the cause. ?Maybe you should re-up, eh?

So you see an army that can function where the soldiers say,
Afghanistan, Im there,
Iraq? Ill pass
We have now established that you are older than that, wiser, id hope.

Ah, more bullshit and misdirection.

You asked a question, I answered it. ?I said nothing of thinking an army could function by choosing the wars they fight. ?That's precisely why I don't criticize the troops. ?I criticise the people sending them there.

typical huh?
Do you know how annoying and condescending that is?

Well, it's the truth. ?If you find it annoying and condescending, perhaps you should change it. ?Post something of substance. ?Offer up some proof. ?You know, generally make a contribution to the discussion that's meaningful.... ?Ah, heck..what am I saying. ?Look at what you've posted.

I do find it funny, though, given your "bitch" remark, that you'd say so. ?

You dont see doubt in this country resonating accross the world?

You're attaching causation where none has been proven. ?So, Proof, please?

And that it's "harming our cause"?

If you were to stand in front of a soldier who just came back and say what you write here, a soldier that just watched some of his buddies get blown up or mamed he would hand you your heart and let you watch it take its last beat, you do know that dont you.?
Doesnt that bother you a little?

Ahh, more bullshit and misdirection.

In any event, I doubt it. ?In fact, I more than doubt it.

Mostly because I wouldn't do it. ?Why? ?Because my "issue" isn't with him, his buddies, or any of the troops fighting this war. ?No matter how much YOU want to make it so. ?So why spout my frustrations off to him? ?What's he gonna do? Notice that's exactly the bent of those protesting this war.  Treat the troops like the heroes that they are, and criticize the CIC and his administration, who are the ones making the decisions we disagree with.

Secondly, because I have friends who have been over there, and we talk about this stuff. ?They don't seem to get too angry.

The only thing I critizized Clinton for was being a liar, under oath no less.
And his inaction on multiple issues due to ditractions unbecoming of a man.

First off, read what I wrote again. ?I said "the same men you are insisting deserve our undying loyalty and faith"

Certainly that wouldn't be you.

Second, read what you've wrote.

Remember, you said majority rules. ?You don't get to decide WHEN you can criticize our leaders. ?You should just pledge your undying loyalty and trust them.

Hypocricy. ?It's what's for dinner.

[shades]

maybe you notice I may be the only one here who doesnt post someone elses words to help relay my thoughts.
Or substantiate what I feel.
You seem to need a 'source' for everything. like a child with his blanky.

My thoughts and views are a compilation of everything I take in, from where it comes I give very little of my memory to.
I do my filtering at the time I take it in.

I count 7 insults, all kinda girly but insults nontheless in your last post.
So lets not pot kettle black.

My bitch comment came directly after you calling me a troll.
And thats exactly how I react when someone confronts me that way in person.
which you wouldnt do of course.

My views on this war are derived from the events leading up to it.
Changing my mind now that we are there would not only insult those fighting but would be a personal
insult to myself on those grounds.

My grandfather use to tell me when I walked up on him working.
"Either help, offer a better way to do it, or get out of the way"