Tookie Williams (convicted murderer) desires clemency

[sandman]

One less piece of shit in the world.? If only the US would enforce capital punishment on child molestors and rapists.

and ''certain'' posters on message boards.....

are you saying you want to see Guns N' Rock Music die? AND others on these boards?

are you being serious?

[Surfrider]

The guy claims he is innocent to this day.

Yah, so does every other criminal in prison. ?Too bad they had witnesses, and he bragged about it to his friends.

He has been nominated for the nobel peace prize five times.

This is a joke. ?A local radio guy, Bill Handel, also got nominated for a nobel prize recently to show how easy it is to be nominated. ?You simply need any person from a national assembly to put your name forward. ?I doubt you have to twist someone like Maxine Watters' arm to hard to get her to do that. ?There is no threshold that you have to meet to get nominated. ?It has been a campaign for sometime to get this guy off of death row.

He also has been nominated a few times for the nobel literature prize. He has written books for children condemning violence.

They have sold about 300 copies, despite the claims to the contrary. ?The local radio station also read some of his nobel prize literature on the air. ?I'll just say, it was hardly John Steinbeck, let alone Dr. Seuss.

In fact, this guy has never shown any remorse for the killings. ?He supposedly mocked the victims when they were crying while being killed. ?Furthermore, he didn't exactly separate himself from the gang life once he went to prison.

I have seen the pictures and they are indeed grizzly. However the guy says he has evidence that proves him innocent that has not been allowed to present.

20 years of appeals. ?People have been asking for this so-called evidence all week, I haven't seen anyone come forward with it.

[jimmythegent]

This article, like nearly every article this poster shares with the board, is stilted trash.

I strongly agree with the death penalty in principle, but cannot support it in practice.? Theres no greater injustice a government can commit than to put to death an innocent citizen, and that possibility alone prevents me from supporting it.? An innocent person subjected to life in prison may be equally tragic and agonizing, but its not death.? And while Im almost willing to accept such a decision based on "super-evidence" (video or credible confession, basically), Im unable to shake the inherent implication that while an individual serving life is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, theyre not really as guilty as the guy being sentenced to death.? Its a hard conclusion to make, and I desperately want to support capital punishment - in a perfect system I absolutely would.? In this system, however, I cant.?

I'm interested to know Booker, are there not other factors that put you off capital punishment other than the possibility of innocence (granted one of many good reasons in my view).

Other posts Ive read by you really paint a picture of a social democrat  and I would have expected that you would have a moral dillema when faced with capital punishment

I live in New Zealand and the issue has recently come to the surface in this part of the world as an Australian was put to death in Singapore for Heroin trafficking. A young 23 kid made a stupid, foolish decision, trying to get his brother (who was in debt to loan sharks) out of trouble and paid for the mistake with his life. I realise this is a different kind of situation to Tookie as he didn't kill anyone. But it did raise the isssue and there was a lot of debate down this way about the death penalty.

Personally, I find it repugnate and the day that Australian kid was executed a few weeks ago, I felt sick to my stomach.

Two wrongs just dont make a right in my view - killing is wrong and no one, and I mean no one has the right to make the decision to end life. Coupled with this you have the research that proves it is ineffective as a deterrant. States that have capital punishment have higher incremental murder rates per capita than those without.

Just wondering why you make the comment:

"I desperately want to support capital punishment - in a perfect system I absolutely would. "

[SLCPUNK]

One less piece of shit in the world.  If only the US would enforce capital punishment on child molestors and rapists.

and ''certain'' posters on message boards.....

are you saying you want to see Guns N' Rock Music die? AND others on these boards?

are you being serious?

Oh you know, probably tongue and cheeck, just like when somebody says AQ should bomb the democrat national convention, or attack San Fran....they were only kidding.

"And can you imagine the improvements that we would see if we forced sterilization of certain groups?  If we sterilized drug addicts, the hopelessly impoverished and all liberals...wouldn't this country improve almost over night?"

Charity Case

Why getting your panties in a wad when the same type of comments come back to you?

[RichardNixon]

I was watching the coverage last night (around 3:30 am Eastern time) and it was interesting how FOX News reported the execution compared to every other network. They spent most of their time condemning the anti-death penalty supporters.

[Booker Floyd]

I'm interested to know Booker, are there not other factors that put you off capital punishment other than the possibility of innocence (granted one of many good reasons in my view).

Other posts Ive read by you really paint a picture of a social democrat? and I would have expected that you would have a moral dillema when faced with capital punishment

I live in New Zealand and the issue has recently come to the surface in this part of the world as an Australian was put to death in Singapore for Heroin trafficking. A young 23 kid made a stupid, foolish decision, trying to get his brother (who was in debt to loan sharks) out of trouble and paid for the mistake with his life. I realise this is a different kind of situation to Tookie as he didn't kill anyone. But it did raise the isssue and there was a lot of debate down this way about the death penalty.

Personally, I find it repugnate and the day that Australian kid was executed a few weeks ago, I felt sick to my stomach.

Two wrongs just dont make a right in my view - killing is wrong and no one, and I mean no one has the right to make the decision to end life. Coupled with this you have the research that proves it is ineffective as a deterrant. States that have capital punishment have higher incremental murder rates per capita than those without.

Just wondering why you make the comment:

"I desperately want to support capital punishment - in a perfect system I absolutely would. "

Well Ive gotta say, Ive actually reevaluated my outlook on the death penalty within the past few days, though Id been thinking about it for months. I once supported it, then I rejected it primarily on the reason I gave in that post - the possibilty of innocence and the intrinsic unfairness in issuing some convicts a death sentence and others a life sentence.

My reasons for supporting it were actually the standard pro-death rationale: lack of sympathy for perpetrators of heinous crimes, unwillingness to support them for life, avoiding the risk of putting other prisoners/prison workers at risk, and acceptance that its fair - you take a life, you have your life taken. But as I explained, Ive held these principles with the cognizance that the death penalty doesnt serve proper justice in reality.

I can still identify with those feelings when I see guys like the "BTK Killer," John Wayne Gacy, Robert Couey, or any of these serial/child-killers. ?When I witness the "BTK Killer" confess (credibly, I should add) to those acts without remorse, I cant think of a practical reason to keep him around. ?His case is different from someone like Tookie Williams', who, even if he was indeed guilty, strived to change and help society. ?

Personally, I find it repugnate and the day that Australian kid was executed a few weeks ago, I felt sick to my stomach.

Yeah, I heard about that story, and it is awful. ?And last night, I felt sick to my stomach as well.

Beside the callous, petty reasoning Arnold Schwarzeneggar provided in his denial, I didnt like the entire situation. ?I think allowing somebody nearly 30 years to change and attempt to redeem themselves only to execute them is in fact cruel and unusual. ?Im beginning to agree with the perspective that, aside from the obvious practical flaws, the state should transcend killing people. ?If theres a scant few convicts who volunteer for the death penalty, I would support it. ?Otherwise, Ive become very uncomfortable with it from a moral perspective. ?

[SLCPUNK]

The guy claims he is innocent to this day.

Yah, so does every other criminal in prison.  Too bad they had witnesses, and he bragged about it to his friends.

He has been nominated for the nobel peace prize five times.

This is a joke.  A local radio guy, Bill Handel, also got nominated for a nobel prize recently to show how easy it is to be nominated.  You simply need any person from a national assembly to put your name forward.  I doubt you have to twist someone like Maxine Watters' arm to hard to get her to do that.  There is no threshold that you have to meet to get nominated.  It has been a campaign for sometime to get this guy off of death row.

He also has been nominated a few times for the nobel literature prize. He has written books for children condemning violence.

They have sold about 300 copies, despite the claims to the contrary.  The local radio station also read some of his nobel prize literature on the air.  I'll just say, it was hardly John Steinbeck, let alone Dr. Seuss.

In fact, this guy has never shown any remorse for the killings.  He supposedly mocked the victims when they were crying while being killed.  Furthermore, he didn't exactly separate himself from the gang life once he went to prison.

I have seen the pictures and they are indeed grizzly. However the guy says he has evidence that proves him innocent that has not been allowed to present.

20 years of appeals.  People have been asking for this so-called evidence all week, I haven't seen anyone come forward with it.

He takes the ball and runs the other way...........

I am certainly not trying to build an innocent case for this guy. I could have sat and disputed the post above, but I could care less about innocence or guilt. What the point is ( which you are ignoring to create some other fight) is that while he was in prison he tried for some time to make amends through his work. Regardless of how he was nominated, the fact that his work was recognized at all means something. Does it mean he was worthy of a prize? That is not relevant to my point. The point is that if he has done all this work while in jail, and would it be humane to just kill him in the end anyway? Even the wife of one of the victims came forward to say she thought he should just stay in jail the remainder of his life.

[jameslofton29]

He shot a man twice in the back while he begged for his life. He killed other people as well, but that one murder has earned him a spot in hell. Burn Tookie burn.

[SLCPUNK]

He shot a man twice in the back while he begged for his life. He killed other people as well, but that one murder has earned him a spot in hell. Burn Tookie burn.

You guys think he is gonna burn in hell huh?

Yet you call civilian casualties "collateral damage" in the same breath.

Condoning that kind of violence against your fellow man (children no less) while condemning the act of murder by another is hypocritical at best. Almost as bad as pulling the trigger yourself, since your tax money pays for the bombs and bullets that "liberate" the middle east, while you cheer from the sidelines.

To me that is the most cowardly kind of murderer, since you let somebody else do it for you and hide behind lies while it happens.

If he was guilty, ten to one you'll see him one day yourself. I heard the coffee is cold down there in hell too.....what a shame.

[jarmo]

I see the same few people still think throwing insults around is fun.

What's the problem? You think we need you to drag the board down to 3rd grade level "discussions"?

You think civilized discussions are overrated and insults are so much more fun?





/jarmo

[Surfrider]

The guy claims he is innocent to this day.

Yah, so does every other criminal in prison.? Too bad they had witnesses, and he bragged about it to his friends.

He has been nominated for the nobel peace prize five times.

This is a joke.? A local radio guy, Bill Handel, also got nominated for a nobel prize recently to show how easy it is to be nominated.? You simply need any person from a national assembly to put your name forward.? I doubt you have to twist someone like Maxine Watters' arm to hard to get her to do that.? There is no threshold that you have to meet to get nominated.? It has been a campaign for sometime to get this guy off of death row.

He also has been nominated a few times for the nobel literature prize. He has written books for children condemning violence.

They have sold about 300 copies, despite the claims to the contrary.? The local radio station also read some of his nobel prize literature on the air.? I'll just say, it was hardly John Steinbeck, let alone Dr. Seuss.

In fact, this guy has never shown any remorse for the killings.? He supposedly mocked the victims when they were crying while being killed.? Furthermore, he didn't exactly separate himself from the gang life once he went to prison.

I have seen the pictures and they are indeed grizzly. However the guy says he has evidence that proves him innocent that has not been allowed to present.

20 years of appeals.? People have been asking for this so-called evidence all week, I haven't seen anyone come forward with it.

He takes the ball and runs the other way...........

I am certainly not trying to build an innocent case for this guy. I could have sat and disputed the post above, but I could care less about innocence or guilt. What the point is ( which you are ignoring to create some other fight) is that while he was in prison he tried for some time to make amends through his work. Regardless of how he was nominated, the fact that his work was recognized at all means something. Does it mean he was worthy of a prize? That is not relevant to my point. The point is that if he has done all this work while in jail, and would it be humane to just kill him in the end anyway? Even the wife of one of the victims came forward to say she thought he should just stay in jail the remainder of his life.

Actually, I addressed exactly what you posted, unlike your inability to address my reply to your groundless charges of racism. ?I was simply making the point that he hasn't done that much, nor has he changed that much. ?He didn't help that many people as alleged. ?He sold only 300 copies of his book. ?The point is, this was simply a campaign by those that are against the death penalty or those that will cry anytime someone black is convicted of a crime (and call me racist if you wish, but there are some that feel this way, and not to say they shouldn't considering the history of corruption of many police departments in framing blacks).

I am not a strong supporter of the death penalty. ?In fact, I tend to disfavor it. ?Nevertheless, the arguments that people make for this guy drive me crazy. ?First, they try and claim that there wasn't sufficient evidence and that he probably didn't commit the crime. ?Absolutely ridiculous. ?There is no basis for this whatsoever.

Second, they try to paint this guy as a martyr. ?They claim he has helped so many, and that he was nominated for a nobel prize. ?In addition, they try and make it sound like he has been remorseful and has tried so hard to steer people away from his former life. ?This is a bunch of BS. ?As I previously stated, anyone can be nominated for a nobel prize, his book hasn't had very much impact, if any, and he has never once apologized for what he did. ?In fact, he helped strengthen the prison gang system.

If you are against the death penalty then simply say it. ?Don't try to turn this killer into a saint/martyr. ?To do so is a slap in the face to the people that he killed.

[SLCPUNK]

He sold only 300 copies of his book.  The point is, this was simply a campaign by those that are against the death penalty or those that will cry anytime someone black is convicted of a crime (and call me racist if you wish, but there are some that feel this way, and not to say they shouldn't considering the history of corruption of many police departments in framing blacks).

Second, they try to paint this guy as a martyr.  They claim he has helped so many, and that he was nominated for a nobel prize.  In addition, they try and make it sound like he has been remorseful and has tried so hard to steer people away from his former life.  This is a bunch of BS.  As I previously stated, anyone can be nominated for a nobel prize, his book hasn't had very much impact, if any, and he has never once apologized for what he did.  In fact, he helped strengthen the prison gang system.

If you are against the death penalty then simply say it.  Don't try to turn this killer into a saint/martyr.  To do so is a slap in the face to the people that he killed.

You are still holding onto your BS. It does not matter how much he sold of the book. Would it mean he was really sorry if he sold more copies? 

I called your "Those people" comment racist, it certainly had racist tones. I don't think I built up my point around him being black. I didn't mention race in that post.

He said he did not do it til he died. Would you say you were sorry for something you did not do? Supposing you did not do it?

I'm not trying to make him into anything he is not. Don't try to lump me in witht that group to create some strawman to tear down. I am for the death penalty in some cases and against in others. I have made this clear.

I have also made my point clear on this issue in particular, and I am not repeating myself for you GNRNIGHTTRAIN.

[SLCPUNK]

How was society advanced by his death?

[Surfrider]

You are still holding onto your BS. It does not matter how much he sold of the book. Would it mean he was really sorry if he sold more copies??

Well, when you sit and claim that he has done good, and has been nominated for a nobel prize as a reason to not institute the death penalty in regards to him (which you did do), I think it is quite relevant.

He has been nominated for the nobel peace prize five times.

He also has been nominated a few times for the nobel literature prize. He has written books for children condemning violence.

I called your "Those people" comment racist, it certainly had racist tones.

Yet, you fail to specifically address my response to that post. ?You throw out the racist card far too often when someone undercuts your argument.

I don't think I built up my point around him being black. I didn't mention race in that post.

I never said you did. ?Only time you mentioned race was when you called me a racist.

He said he did not do it til he died. Would you say you were sorry for something you did not do? Supposing you did not do it?

He admitted that he did it to his friends. ?Furthermore, this guy strengthened his gang from prison.

I'm not trying to make him into anything he is not. Don't try to lump me in witht that group to create some strawman to tear down. I am for the death penalty in some cases and against in others. I have made this clear.

Then why do you make the same groundless arguments that these people make?




Let me just say, this case particularly makes me against the death penalty in California.  I would far rather have this guy sit in a prison his whole life than painted as a saint by those on the left and those that are against capital punishment.

[SLCPUNK]

For Christ sakes man. Do you argue just to hear yourself? 

There was nothing to address in the racist comment you made. You said you hoped the would not riot. You said "those people" which had racist tones. I pointed that out.

The rest is you blowing hot air. Reread my posts for any questions.

[Surfrider]

For Christ sakes man. Do you argue just to hear yourself??

There was nothing to address in the racist comment you made. You said you hoped the would not riot. You said "those people" which had racist tones. I pointed that out.

The rest is you blowing hot air. Reread my posts for any questions.

When you refuse to reply, it is a tell-tale sign that you recognize that you are wrong.  You are just so darn stubborn.

Those people means "those against the execution."  Just to let you know, not only blacks riot.  Remember the WTO in Seattle?  If anyone drew the connection between rioting and blacks it was yourself.

[sandman]

One less piece of shit in the world.? If only the US would enforce capital punishment on child molestors and rapists.

and ''certain'' posters on message boards.....

are you saying you want to see Guns N' Rock Music die? AND others on these boards?

are you being serious?

Oh you know, probably tongue and cheeck, just like when somebody says AQ should bomb the democrat national convention, or attack San Fran....they were only kidding.

Why getting your panties in a wad when the same type of comments come back to you?

no panties in a wad here. just surprised someone would wish death on a fellow gnr poster, that's all.

are you implying that i said "AQ should bomb the DNC" or SF??

cause i have no idea what you're talking about.

so by your own assinine standards, you're a liar, and a fucking moron.

[SLCPUNK]

One less piece of shit in the world.  If only the US would enforce capital punishment on child molestors and rapists.

and ''certain'' posters on message boards.....

are you saying you want to see Guns N' Rock Music die? AND others on these boards?

are you being serious?

Oh you know, probably tongue and cheeck, just like when somebody says AQ should bomb the democrat national convention, or attack San Fran....they were only kidding.

Why getting your panties in a wad when the same type of comments come back to you?

no panties in a wad here. just surprised someone would wish death on a fellow gnr poster, that's all.

are you implying that i said "AQ should bomb the DNC" or SF??

cause i have no idea what you're talking about.

so by your own assinine standards, you're a liar, and a fucking moron.

Well, hoping that democratic convention, or that san fran gets attacked is the same thing really.

I did not say you did say that dude. But I did say that others did say those very things. Your buddies here on this forum.

[Guns N RockMusic]

One less piece of shit in the world.? If only the US would enforce capital punishment on child molestors and rapists.

and ''certain'' posters on message boards.....

Again Izzy, you are a fascist piece of garbage. ?You advocate the systematic discrimination and persecution of minorities and now you're advocating people should be executed because they disagree with you - even worse you lump them in the same category as pedophiles and rapists. ?You absolutely are the epitiome of fascism, and SLC is your Rudolph Hess - as he's always there to defend your wacko claims even though it discredits him more and more.


Here's the thing SLC, Sandman or Shades (whomever referenced the attack on the DNC) wasn't advocating that attack or even hoping it would happen. ?Thus why your scream for the CIA was pointless; they were simply explaining how ironic it would be if the liberals were the ones who were attacked since they are the weakest on defense. ?Izzy however repeatedly condoned and excused the horrendous treatment women receive in muslim nations. ?You fools keep digging yourselfs deeper and deeper as was shown when no one came to defend you clowns in your latest babble.

[SLCPUNK]

Those people means "those against the execution."  Just to let you know, not only blacks riot.  Remember the WTO in Seattle?  If anyone drew the connection between rioting and blacks it was yourself.

LOL, oh yea....like you really meant all the white people down there, haha, you are so full of it! The people that are "anti death penalty" are the ones who may set the place on fire. haha, sure, that is what you meant by your little comment.

Still up to the same crap you were when MCT shamed you last time!