Axl throwing tantrums with Tracii Guns

[mikegiuliana]

Richard, I get your point and agree. But, as Falcon said, Cobain defined the movement and certainly benefited from his death. Commercially Pearl Jam was about even with Nirvana, maybe ahead. But, critically, and critics do matter to an extent, Nirvana is way out front. Fuck, who really cares? They are all great rock bands. And the 90's shit all over the last 6 years.

Cock-Rock was nearing its end. If Nirvana hadn't been the band, it would have been someone else.

change in music has nothing to do with greatness imo.. Smells like teen spirit is a terrible song, but it gets ranked higher then any gnr song, shit higher then just about any rock song ever.. I remember by the early 90's every rocker was doiong shit like More then words, and every rose has it's thorn.. people became so sick of these ballads and hair bands alike.. The overdone rock star was at it's annoying peak and people needed a change..
 nevermind just came out at the exact time when change was needed. kurt cobain just seemed like some regular shmo, maybe that's what kids identified with..? Needless to say the man killed himself shortly after the swing in music happened so he's now a legend.. probably would have faded like every band does.. Smashing pumkins, stp, alice in chains, soundgarden, etc. or been a lower seller as time went on like PJ.. Nothing was bigger then TEN and jeremy...

So if nevermind came out in 89 I think it would have quitley sailed into the sunset maybe going gold, illusions come out in 1993 they sell maybe  amillion each.. November rain switches slots with estranged and you have the opposite hits..

[RichardNixon]

 To refute your point about SLTS:

It is hardly a terrible song. The fact that someone could create a simple song and have it be so incredibly infectious demonstrates how talented Cobain was.

I really think both Rose and Cobain are/were brilliant in their own right. Rose is a grandiose visionary, and a "star" if ever there was one. Cobain the opposite, and could express himself and make terrific music with the simplistic arraignments. Apples and oranges, no need to say one is more of a legend than the other.

[ppbebe]

I like nirvana songs but I agree that change in music has little to do with musical greatness.
People always get bored quickly. besides generational change is natural.

The Beatles and Dylan are an exception. Lydon isn't all that talented, yes, I said it.

Yeah Lydon is English. He's talented. (a relief is that no one mentions Sid.) But is it about the talent?

Axl is more famous than Joplin or Morrison, man.

And Axl, Lydon or anyone above ground is more important than any corpse below ground.

[younggunner]

Try watching to the end show, talks about the emergence of another band/scene that effectively shut down the Sunset Strip...

No1 is disputing Nirvanas emergence. But at the same time, those bands were a dime a dozen. Nirvana hit it big. But Pearl Jam could have easiy taken that throne as well. IMO Pearl Jam is 100x better and should be the band of that whole genre. But liek Cobain, those types of bands dont liek the attention and relaities of being a rockstar/band. Hence rock is dead nowadays. SDO yes most of their music is great and changed the way, it also didnt have a long life span. Those bands didnt have balls like GNR. Whether you think any of the stuff Axl and GNR did was cool or not they stll had the balls to do stuff and do whatever the hell they wanted how they wanted. They didnt shy away from the light when they were on top. They embraced it.

That said, the fact of the matter is Axl is just not regarded in the same light as some (who'll remain nameless as to avoid all
mention of the "N" band). 

I dont care how people compare Axl and Cobain. CObain will always have his 1 song number 1 on all lists because of what it did. But Axl will top CObain in all other lists. Cobain is only famous because he blew off his head. Not saying he isnt talented. Cause he def is. And im sure Nirvana would have had an excellent career. But like GNR they would have probably burnt out themselves.

Just imagine if they were gone for many years and all of a sudden they closed the vmas and james hetfield had braides looking rapper like and kirk hammett was gone as was lars and there was some guy with a bucket on his head or another guy looking pale like a goth rocker type.. I

No offense but that scenario wouldn thappen because James Hetfield or any1 else of that calibur wouldnt have the balls to do anything like that...braids included. Of course peopel will be saying its Axl and sopme guys or James and some guys. No1 knows who they are yet. They dont have an album out and GNr havnt been heard from in years. So why should they know or accept that? When the material is out they will be able to decide for themselves if they wanna accept what they see. Until then, any1 has every right to be speculative of the band.

Axl still overshadows Cobain on a worldwide scale. You do tend to forget or acknowledge Gnr's relevance worldwide. They are simply a bigger band than Nirvana ever was. Facts are facts.

Bingo.

Axl might not have started a new sound but he is just as important to rnr as Cobain is.

[Falcon]

Axl might not have started a new sound but he is just as important to rnr as Cobain is.

Famous? Yes, even moreso.

Important?? Not a chance in hell.

This horse is dead.

[RichardNixon]

Axl might not have started a new sound but he is just as important to rnr as Cobain is.

Famous? Yes, even moreso.

Important?? Not a chance in hell.



This horse is dead.

Guns N' Roses "Greatest Hits" is still in the top 60 and it came out a year-and-a-half ago. So obviously Guns N' Roses and Axl Rose are still very important and mean a lot to a lot of people.

Besides, "Important" is just a word. What is or is not "important" is a matter of relevance.

As for Axl "not being regarded in the same light" as Cobain, that too is subjective. Ever read the reader reviews at amazon? Those opinions and reviews are just as valid as the pretentious eggheads over at allmusic.com or RS.

[Carlos_f_Rose]

Sadly Cobain's fame, lies in his Death instead of his music.

[RichardNixon]

Sadly Cobain's fame, lies in his Death instead of his music.

While his death sealed his place as a legend, that doesn't mean his fame lies in death. If he were still alive today, he'd be very famous.

[Carlos_f_Rose]

Im not sure about that. Grunge is almost dead, and bands like Pearl Jam and Sound Garden who once were the icon of that movement dont enjoy the fame they used to have. Maybe Cobain would be famous, maybe not, who knows?

[RichardNixon]

Im not sure about that. Grunge is almost dead, and bands like Pearl Jam and Sound Garden who once were the icon of that movement dont enjoy the fame they used to have. Maybe Cobain would be famous, maybe not, who knows?

Grunge has been dead since about 1994!

[mikegiuliana]

I would say without a doubt today in the usa kurt cobain is much better known and recognized then axl rose.. I think one's status has grew while the other declined.. Definetly more people today know nirvana here over guns n roses..

To me axl rose and gnr is more important then kurt cobain but as a society curt is the dominant force.. To many people gnr was another hair band but no one will say nirvana was just another band..

No offense but that scenario wouldn thappen because James Hetfield or any1 else of that calibur wouldnt have the balls to do anything like that...braids included.

to me back when metallica cut their hair being heavy metal gods that was a bigger shocker then axl sporting braides.. Something like the black album to me was a shock and risky based on their first 4 albums..

it doesn't matter anyways I was only talking about people who saw the last axl rose public performance that were outside the gnr message boards and how they reacted in ?my case.

[RichardNixon]

I would say without a doubt today in the usa kurt cobain is much better known and recognized then axl rose.. I think one's status has grew while the other declined.. Definetly more people today know nirvana here over guns n roses..

To me axl rose and gnr is more important then kurt cobain but as a society curt is the dominant force.. To many people gnr was another hair band but no one will say nirvana was just another band..

No offense but that scenario wouldn thappen because James Hetfield or any1 else of that calibur wouldnt have the balls to do anything like that...braids included.

to me back when metallica cut their hair being heavy metal gods that was a bigger shocker then axl sporting braides.. Something like the black album to me was a shock and risky based on their first 4 albums..

it doesn't matter anyways I was only talking about people who saw the last axl rose public performance that were outside the gnr message boards and how they reacted in ?my case.

To repeat what I said before, GN'Rs greatest hits is still in the top 60 and came out over a year and a half ago. That makes GN'R "pretty well known."

[younggunner]

Famous? Yes, even moreso.

Important? ?Not a chance in hell.

Just look at the album sales....gnr did somehting right and mean something still to this day.

I would say without a doubt today in the usa kurt cobain is much better known and recognized then axl rose.. I think one's status has grew while the other declined.. Definetly more people today know nirvana here over guns n roses..

They are both on the same level. Cobain is considered much cooler than Axl here in the US. Worldwide, GNR own Nirvana. They were both huge bands though. How has Cobains status grown? His claim to fame is he blew off his head. ?Cobain made an impact with his new style of music but Axl has made an equal impact with the music he did.

To many people gnr was another hair band but no one will say nirvana was just another band..

WHat other hair bands from the gnr era seel anywhere close to what GNr does. And name 1 that hasnt done shit since 92 and is still very much relevant.

to me back when metallica cut their hair being heavy metal gods that was a bigger shocker then axl sporting braides.. Something like the black album to me was a shock and risky based on their first 4 albums..

to me, leaving the music scene when on top, not being complacent with what you have, not letting the pressure of making up with your old band, making a new band with the same name, and releasing the album when you want to all adds up to a big risk and some balls to me


and im sick and tired of this grunge thing. I love the music. All of the bands I listen to are basically from the 90's. But its justs o overfukin rated. Grunge killed rock. There is no rock. Grunge is rock but with no fukin balls. There all pussy full of maggots hiding. Where are the rockstars. I could careless if peopel think Axl is nto cool. WHy because he lieks to be over the top? Who cares. When Axl had the world by the balls he faced it. The way he wanted. And when CD comes out he will again show why he one of the GREATEST all around frontmen music has ever seen.

[Carlos_f_Rose]

I dont know how this thread reached the point to talk about Nirvana, but they guy is extremely famous because of his death. And musically speaking their music is really simple.

[mikegiuliana]

to me, leaving the music scene when on top

I really don't think guns n roses or axl rose left the music scene while on top.. No doubt their attendance was still awesome in 1993 but their demand dropped because of the swing in musical genre.. When I see a killer tune like estranged being all but forgotten struggling to make it and another single like sidhy doing terrible as with TSI which peaked at number 3. Gnr with estranged was getting beat by last dance with mary jane on mtv, sidhy was getting beat by mother from danzig.. Barely anyone knows TSI..

WHat other hair bands from the gnr era seel anywhere close to what GNr does. And name 1 that hasnt done shit since 92 and is still very much relevant.

I never said gnr was a hair band I said the community sees them as one, not all but enough where there is comments.. Kurt cobain usually tops every rock list voted on by fans or rock critics so someone in the usa sees him and what he accomplished over axl or gnr.. No doubt they own his ass outside of here.
I think motley crue is doing a damn good job touring sales wise.. The king of hairbands bon jovi has done more then both put together since 1992 between albums sales or concert sales.. BJ could have five nights in one stadium and sell out all their gigs..

And musically speaking their music is really simple.

that's exactly why people loved it.. people don't understand we ended a decade of excess. the start of the 90's was a continuation  of the overdone 80's.. Change was needed..

[mikegiuliana]

I would say without a doubt today in the usa kurt cobain is much better known and recognized then axl rose.. I think one's status has grew while the other declined.. Definetly more people today know nirvana here over guns n roses..

To me axl rose and gnr is more important then kurt cobain but as a society curt is the dominant force.. To many people gnr was another hair band but no one will say nirvana was just another band..

No offense but that scenario wouldn thappen because James Hetfield or any1 else of that calibur wouldnt have the balls to do anything like that...braids included.

to me back when metallica cut their hair being heavy metal gods that was a bigger shocker then axl sporting braides.. Something like the black album to me was a shock and risky based on their first 4 albums..

it doesn't matter anyways I was only talking about people who saw the last axl rose public performance that were outside the gnr message boards and how they reacted in ?my case.

To repeat what I said before, GN'Rs greatest hits is still in the top 60 and came out over a year and a half ago. That makes GN'R "pretty well known."

yes it is selling great.. Why I don't know, there is no advertisements for the damn thing..  Great music.. Afd still sells awesome, maybe some people want it all without buying seperate albums

[younggunner]

I really don't think guns n roses or axl rose left the music scene while on top.. No doubt their attendance was still awesome in 1993 but their demand dropped because of the swing in musical genre..

GNR were still at the top of their game. If they released an album in 95/96ish they would have been right on par with Nirvana and all the other top bands. Being that they released TSI and there was a lot of speculation on the future of the band thta kinda pushed them aside a little. but a follow up album and DEFINETLY ?tour would have done great.

When I see a killer tune like estranged being all but forgotten struggling to make it

You, I and everyone else here knows the reasons why Estranged didnt catch on. That song should have never been released as a single. Especially in the same period of NR. You cant put out 2 monster songs liek that in terms of length. Plus Estranged is not a radio type song like NR is. Also the video was over the top. That turned many people off.

Estranged is the greates dam song ever recorded. I dont care what any1 says. The lyrics, the music is so fukin amazing. I listen to that song every day. Its so amazing. The way Axl sings it and the way the band plays on it. When I first got into GNR I never really liekd the song. I thought it was boring and long. But as you get older, as you live life that song hits home. Its just not a radio song. U2 or Eminem can release that song right now and it wouldnt work well on the radio.

I think motley crue is doing a damn good job touring sales wise.. The king of hairbands bon jovi has done more then both put together since 1992 between albums sales or concert sales.. BJ could have five nights in one stadium and sell out all their gigs..

Let me see them put out an album of new material that matches what they did in their prime. And thats exactely what Ill be expecting from GNR when CD comes out. Not just a regular album that is supported by a well reconized name and old material. An album that will give the old material a run for its money. You cant bring up these bands because they are bands that are comfortable with their past and havnt tried new things. Im not saying its a bad thing. But its not what Axl/gnr are gonan do.

Gnr were never a band that stayed with a formula. Unfortunaltely that style and attitude might have broken up the old band but atleast whenever we get a new album it will be different from the last and more than likely it will be as good if not better than those albums.

that's exactly why people loved it.. people don't understand we ended a decade of excess. the start of the 90's was a continuation ?of the overdone 80's.. Change was needed..

Yep exactely. But what has the grunge era inspired exactely? Rock has been dead for years now...music is 1 big cycle. thats why the grunge thing is overated. yea change was needed and those bands provided it. But change will always be needed. But nothing has come out of the grunge era since they were big. Where are those inspirations? The hwole lets not be cool attitude is so boring and uninspiring. It doesnt get a rise out of people like Axl did. Axl is the type that you love or hate. And thats good because it provides motivation and inspiration for people who either liek him or hate him. What does CObain inspire? Since the late 90's its been pop and rap. music is 1 big cycle. bands like Jett, Darkness, etc had the right kind of mucis but no uniqueness. Maybe they are a product of the music business IDK. Everything is predicatble.

[mikegiuliana]

You, I and everyone else here knows the reasons why Estranged didnt catch on. That song should have never been released as a single. Especially in the same period of NR. You cant put out 2 monster songs liek that in terms of length. Plus Estranged is not a radio type song like NR is. Also the video was over the top. That turned many people off.

I am only quoting this because the answers are getting large.. I agree estranged is a great song, I love the lyrics and the guitar work..
They didn't not only have bad choice but it was because that type of song was not "in" anymore.. Switch november rain with estranged from 91 to 93 and they would be opposites.. MTV played the living shit out of NR, and the timing was right too... Start of the 90's was ballad central.. The people I hung with in 1993 had moved on past gnr, and yes there are a lot of trendy fuckers out there that also help make bands bigger then life.. Tons of posers that threw their gnr motley crue or metallica shirts out for nirvana pj stp ones. I also think because of the video for estranged with seemed like a lot of shit going to many ways.. it wasn't something the causal guy might get or want to sit to understand

it all ends with timing, estranged switch with november rain is a hit, novemeber rain in 1993 is a estranged

Whoever thought it was smart to release yet another ballad in 1993 with SIDHY was crazy

[mikegiuliana]

Yep exactely. But what has the grunge era inspired exactely?

I can't tell you directly.. I really don't know.. When I see something as simple as the white stripes it reminds me of something like a nirvana..  To me grunge is rock anyways, just a little darker but it's all the same

[younggunner]

Switch november rain with estranged from 91 to 93 and they would be opposites..

Im not sure about that. You could be right but I just dont thing Estranged is a radio song. NR is an easy song to get into and relate to

I also think because of the video for estranged with seemed like a lot of shit going to many ways.. it wasn't something the causal guy might get or want to sit to understand

agreed, that point in time it just didnt work. thats why it wasnt smart to release it. It was time to move on from the Illusion era and delve into newer things.
But the great thing about Estranged and almost all of GNr music is that it all stands the test of time. Those songs sound just as fresh and new now as they did when it  was big. Im 20 years old and have been a huge gnr fan for 5 years now. I had no business falling in love with gnr and the material. All my friends are into rap. To me the music will never lose its greatness.

anyways...Estranged is amazing