Chinese Democracy.....with no warning????

[Saul]

What about the Al Queda approach...Axl films himself, with nothing else but the GNR logo and a stack of dat tapes behind him

are you saying he should be naked in the video?! 

 

[nesquick]

From Axl's point of view, he should be focussing 100% on the music.

I agree on that one. The promotion is the job of the management, record company and promoters.

[Scabbie]

What about the Al Queda approach...Axl films himself, with nothing else but the GNR logo and a stack of dat tapes behind him

are you saying he should be naked in the video?!?

 

No although I'm sure the girls wouldn't mind!

[Saul]

What about the Al Queda approach...Axl films himself, with nothing else but the GNR logo and a stack of dat tapes behind him

are you saying he should be naked in the video?! 

 

No although I'm sure the girls wouldn't mind!

But think of the children! Wont anyone think of the children?!

 

[Where is Hassan Nasrallah ?]

What about the Al Queda approach...Axl films himself, with nothing else but the GNR logo and a stack of dat tapes behind him

are you saying he should be naked in the video?! 

 

No although I'm sure the girls wouldn't mind!

But think of the children! Wont anyone think of the children?!

 

aahhahahah lam^H^H^H^Hfunny !!!

[Saul]

and just to get back on track aain , personally I dont think it'll come out "without warning" .. there will be news once the ball starts to roll.

[Luigi]

Ya, like CD is coming SOON! to your nearest record store

[ppbebe]

a single promo would do a nice warning.

swift, short and strong then it'd be effective.

[Axlative]

Promotion is 30% of your success. The music is 50%, and the look/image is 20%.
Promotion + look/image are as important as the music itself.

With a weak promotion and a bad image (especially BH and Finck), exactly what we had in 2002, it leads to failure. A band like GN'R can't survive with just 50% of its potencial.

If the music is spot on, I disagree...GN'R and Axl Rose are already big 'brand' names...if the music is good and the critics don't slate it then I think you won't need as much promotion as you think...but then again the pr / marketing departments would argue differently

From Axl's point of view, he should be focussing 100% on the music.

The way I see it is that promotion acts as sort of a multiplier to the level of success the quality of the recording "deserves". Meaning that an excellent record could sell ok, but with proper promotion it would reach its full sales potential. Thus, I do agree that you can't "buy" 30 % of your success. You can add to it, but not create it from scratch. Although it often may feel like it with some artists...

Oh, and there is NO WAY Axl & Co should focus 100 % on only music. They didn't before, they shouldn't now. Back in the day they unintentionally promoted themselves by just being themselves, i.e. out of control boozers living on the edge. That had nothing to do with the music, but that's what made the headlines. Now it should simply be professional promotion.

And for releasing CD without promotion... <Chris Tucker voice> "Getta fuck outta heeeere!"

There supposedly a large amount invested by someone to a product that is still not delivered. If someone has chosen to risk that amount to an very suspectible project without a set deadline, he/she will sure as hell dump in a bit more cash for the risk-free part of the deal. Possibly even an equal amount or more. Promotion is almost guaranteed to give you your money's worth especially and even more so when there is a quality product in question. It would be a financial suicide not to  promote it at full power. For those saying otherwise, you have no business sense at all. Zero. Zip. Nada. NONE!

[Scabbie]

Promotion is 30% of your success. The music is 50%, and the look/image is 20%.
Promotion + look/image are as important as the music itself.

With a weak promotion and a bad image (especially BH and Finck), exactly what we had in 2002, it leads to failure. A band like GN'R can't survive with just 50% of its potencial.

If the music is spot on, I disagree...GN'R and Axl Rose are already big 'brand' names...if the music is good and the critics don't slate it then I think you won't need as much promotion as you think...but then again the pr / marketing departments would argue differently

From Axl's point of view, he should be focussing 100% on the music.

The way I see it is that promotion acts as sort of a multiplier to the level of success the quality of the recording "deserves". Meaning that an excellent record could sell ok, but with proper promotion it would reach its full sales potential. Thus, I do agree that you can't "buy" 30 % of your success. You can add to it, but not create it from scratch. Although it often may feel like it with some artists...

Oh, and there is NO WAY Axl & Co should focus 100 % on only music. They didn't before, they shouldn't now. Back in the day they unintentionally promoted themselves by just being themselves, i.e. out of control boozers living on the edge. That had nothing to do with the music, but that's what made the headlines. Now it should simply be professional promotion.

And for releasing CD without promotion... <Chris Tucker voice> "Getta fuck outta heeeere!"

There supposedly a large amount invested by someone to a product that is still not delivered. If someone has chosen to risk that amount to an very suspectible project without a set deadline, he/she will sure as hell dump in a bit more cash for the risk-free part of the deal. Possibly even an equal amount or more. Promotion is almost guaranteed to give you your money's worth especially and even more so when there is a quality product in question. It would be a financial suicide not to? promote it at full power. For those saying otherwise, you have no business sense at all. Zero. Zip. Nada. NONE!

Note I said Axl. Not Axl and Co. The co bit can take care of the promotion, but I got news without a product there's nothing to promote (besides Greatest Hits, which incidentally sold well without much promotion, or so it seems maybe I wasn't paying attention)

[Axlative]

Note I said Axl. Not Axl and Co. The co bit can take care of the promotion, but I got news without a product there's nothing to promote (besides Greatest Hits, which incidentally sold well without much promotion, or so it seems maybe I wasn't paying attention)

We're not talking about the probability of the CD release here. The thread was started to discuss the question "if/when CD is released could it be done without promotion?". The eventual release of CD is presumed in this thread, realistic or not.

And I didn't mean to differentiate between bandmembers. I ment Axl & Co. = GNR the brand name. Regardless of whoever it may be that actually carries out the promotional duties for the b(r)and. Although I do personally think that Axl's input should be a major one.

GH figures were very nice. For the lack of promotion expecially (I didn't notice much of that either). But GH was basically a freebie as far as the label is concerned. All they had to do was the "external" work. No additional budget for the actual substance as they were just re-releasing existing material. Ok, they had to do the cover art. Woo-hoo. Big deal. But the point is they didn't have any reason to really promote it 'cause it could've bombed and then the initial freebie could've turned into a worse deal. Still profitable, no doubt, but still an additional risk compared to the minimum costs option. The one time promotion decisions can be risky are when the demand for the product is uncertain and that's what the case with GH pretty much was. Like I stated earlier, promotion acts as a multiplier to the no promotion -success level.

However, when there's a significant stake already invested in the product, it isn't as quick or probable to reach the financial break-even point let alone profits (i.e. the situation is riskier). That's why promotion is a must from the investor point-of-view in  releasing CD.

[Neemo]

We're not talking about the probability of the CD release here. The thread was started to discuss the question "if/when CD is released could it be done without promotion?". The eventual release of CD is presumed in this thread, realistic or not.

I think a better question would be, what level of promotion can we expect? How much promotion?

Do you think we'll have TV commercials? Ads in Magazines? Posters in stores? (just record stores? or in places such as walmart as well), flyers being handed out on the street, internet pop up adds? Web site dedicated soley to CD? Spam regarding the release? Giant cardboard cutouts of the band in stores? Amazon.com Ads? A single? A video? Superbowl, VMA, AMA, PAy-per-view performances. News paper ads? CNN coverage? Internet Preorder? Press conference? Band Statement?

Lets be serious here. We'll be lucky to get a Band Statement, a single, a few magazine ads and internet pre-order all about 4-6 weeks before release. Come on GnR is just a rock band. What kind of promotion (and how soon before release) did we get promotion for "With Teeth" or "How to dismantle an Atomic Bomb"? (and I'm talking before the CD hit shelves)

[Axlative]

I think a better question would be, what level of promotion can we expect? How much promotion?

Do you think we'll have TV commercials? Ads in Magazines? Posters in stores? (just record stores? or in places such as walmart as well), flyers being handed out on the street, internet pop up adds? Web site dedicated soley to CD? Spam regarding the release? Giant cardboard cutouts of the band in stores? Amazon.com Ads? A single? A video? Superbowl, VMA, AMA, PAy-per-view performances. News paper ads? CNN coverage? Internet Preorder? Press conference? Band Statement?

Lets be serious here. We'll be lucky to get a Band Statement, a single, a few magazine ads and internet pre-order all about 4-6 weeks before release. Come on GnR is just a rock band. What kind of promotion (and how soon before release) did we get promotion for "With Teeth" or "How to dismantle an Atomic Bomb"? (and I'm talking before the CD hit shelves)

I don't quite agree with the "GnR is just a rock band" part. Well, I do kind of. Of course the band is a band is a band. But when it comes to CD the circumstances are quite unique.

First of all, Axl is recognized as one of the few artists around possibly able to create an album that can be considered one of the greatest ever. That is a lot already. Of course the only ones who matter are the label executives who in the end are responsible for release & withdrawal decisions. For them, the bar is obviously lower as they must've heard snippets of CD. If their view is that CD has potential to be greater than anything we've heard recently I wouldn't be surprised of a gigantic marketing budget.

Second, the GNR brand is one of the strongest ever. GH sales are there to prove it. Of course there's the all time greats like Beatles, Stones, Zep and more modern like 'Tallica, Aerosmith et.al. GNR however established their name in such a short period that relatively speaking it is stronger than almost any active band. This itself does't mean anything, but it does imply a HUGE potential for the success of the band if the full potential of the brand is exploited. This of course requires marketing.

Third, DUDE, IT'S GNR!!!!!!! 

What comes to pre-release promotion, I could vision myself a scenario where some kind of "unofficial" info is leaked to start a huge hype before any ads etc. are revealed. I really really really can't imagine at this point what kind of info would be credible enough to start that kind of hype, but still...

[Neemo]

I think a better question would be, what level of promotion can we expect? How much promotion?

Do you think we'll have TV commercials? Ads in Magazines? Posters in stores? (just record stores? or in places such as walmart as well), flyers being handed out on the street, internet pop up adds? Web site dedicated soley to CD? Spam regarding the release? Giant cardboard cutouts of the band in stores? Amazon.com Ads? A single? A video? Superbowl, VMA, AMA, PAy-per-view performances. News paper ads? CNN coverage? Internet Preorder? Press conference? Band Statement?

Lets be serious here. We'll be lucky to get a Band Statement, a single, a few magazine ads and internet pre-order all about 4-6 weeks before release. Come on GnR is just a rock band. What kind of promotion (and how soon before release) did we get promotion for "With Teeth" or "How to dismantle an Atomic Bomb"? (and I'm talking before the CD hit shelves)

I don't quite agree with the "GnR is just a rock band" part. Well, I do kind of. Of course the band is a band is a band. But when it comes to CD the circumstances are quite unique.

First of all, Axl is recognized as one of the few artists around possibly able to create an album that can be considered one of the greatest ever. That is a lot already. Of course the only ones who matter are the label executives who in the end are responsible for release & withdrawal decisions. For them, the bar is obviously lower as they must've heard snippets of CD. If their view is that CD has potential to be greater than anything we've heard recently I wouldn't be surprised of a gigantic marketing budget.

Second, the GNR brand is one of the strongest ever. GH sales are there to prove it. Of course there's the all time greats like Beatles, Stones, Zep and more modern like 'Tallica, Aerosmith et.al. GNR however established their name in such a short period that relatively speaking it is stronger than almost any active band. This itself does't mean anything, but it does imply a HUGE potential for the success of the band if the full potential of the brand is exploited. This of course requires marketing.

Third, DUDE, IT'S GNR!!!!!!!?

What comes to pre-release promotion, I could vision myself a scenario where some kind of "unofficial" info is leaked to start a huge hype before any ads etc. are revealed. I really really really can't imagine at this point what kind of info would be credible enough to start that kind of hype, but still...

promotion doesn't make a great album. nor does sales

but, at the same time, if it's a great album then sales will be good. I'd rather it sell good cuz it has good songs, rather than it sells good cuz "it's the album to have". GnR will not appeal to the masses and will not create world peace. Can you see your grandma buying GnR or could you see a parent buying GnR for a 10yr old kid? I would place the average age of a GnR fan to be about 25-35. Now I'm not saying that older or younger people will not buy it but on average, that's what i think will buy it.

U2 is bigger than GnR, as is NIN. (whether I/we like it or not )

(beatles, stones, Zepplin, floyd, who, doors, hendrix and other like bands span like 4 decades of fans, and plenty of material to listen to) GnR has 4.5 albums and 2 decades of fans (but for about a decade of that time GnR wasn't too appealing).

I dunno why everyone thinks that GnR & CD will change the world. It ain't gonna. To anticipate that it'll be the greatest album ever is pretty high hopes don't you think? (also music is all relative, just cuz i like something doesn't mean you will too)

P.S. GnR ain't exactly "active"

[Scabbie]

I guess the level of promotion depends on your target markets. I think its a given that at least 100,000 people or so will buy CD in the first day its released (by the way thats a pure guess). If they are looking for an easy return it wouldn't be hard to bundle it together with a book or dvd about the making of Chinese Democracy with some pre-recorded interviews with Axl (if he isn't too comfortable doing them face to face with journalists) and charge $50 or so. Which means you've made $5m straight off, with little or no promotion, just good product! Lets face it all you would need to do that is simply announce it to the message boards which would go 'mad for it'!


 ?

[Axlative]

promotion doesn't make a great album. nor does sales

but, at the same time, if it's a great album then sales will be good. I'd rather it sell good cuz it has good songs, rather than it sells good cuz "it's the album to have". GnR will not appeal to the masses and will not create world peace. Can you see your grandma buying GnR or could you see a parent buying GnR for a 10yr old kid? I would place the average age of a GnR fan to be about 25-35. Now I'm not saying that older or younger people will not buy it but on average, that's what i think will buy it.

Yes, good albums get just that: good sales nothing more. And next week you're out of top 20 due to lack of promotion... Nowdays it just isn't enough to rely on the music. But with good music to promote you just need to put out an average top 40 album marketing budget and you're set. Without one you're nowhere next week. Assuming you even are somewhere to begin with.

It's not about selling the album with promotion. It's about not being overwhelmed by the promotion of Backdoor Boys, Shitney, P. Doodle et.al. Without sufficient promotion the masses will buy whatever crap is heavily promoted. I'd rather have the masses buy good music. Whatever they're buying will be in greater supply in future. And there's never enough great music.

U2 is bigger than GnR, as is NIN. (whether I/we like it or not )

(beatles, stones, Zepplin, floyd, who, doors, hendrix and other like bands span like 4 decades of fans, and plenty of material to listen to) GnR has 4.5 albums and 2 decades of fans (but for about a decade of that time GnR wasn't too appealing).

Didn't quite get my point, did ya?

I dunno why everyone thinks that GnR & CD will change the world. It ain't gonna. To anticipate that it'll be the greatest album ever is pretty high hopes don't you think? (also music is all relative, just cuz i like something doesn't mean you will too)

I'm not expecting CD to "change the world". And I have never said that.

P.S. GnR ain't exactly "active"

Didn't say so.

[Neemo]

Yes, good albums get just that: good sales nothing more. And next week you're out of top 20 due to lack of promotion... Nowdays it just isn't enough to rely on the music. But with good music to promote you just need to put out an average top 40 album marketing budget and you're set. Without one you're nowhere next week. Assuming you even are somewhere to begin with.

It's not about selling the album with promotion. It's about not being overwhelmed by the promotion of Backdoor Boys, Shitney, P. Doodle et.al. Without sufficient promotion the masses will buy whatever crap is heavily promoted. I'd rather have the masses buy good music. Whatever they're buying will be in greater supply in future. And there's never enough great music.

Personally I don't giva a rats ass what the masses listen to.

So you don't think that it needs huge promotion like the bands mentioned above but it needs huge promotion. Answer my question then, what kinda promotion does it need? I told you what i thought it was gonna get at the very most.

IMO that's the problem nowadays. We need to get back to a point where music is about music and not hugeness and lots of glitz and glamour, and videos and image and yadda yadda yadda, good music should be about good music. plain and simple. just cuz one band has a video and another doesn't, doesn't any one necessarily better than the other. or a commercial on tv doesn;t make a good band or song or album. it just cons people into buying it. that's all.

But you said "the GNR brand is one of the strongest ever." and "GNR however established their name in such a short period that relatively speaking it is stronger than almost any active band. This itself does't mean anything, but it does imply a HUGE potential for the success of the band if the full potential of the brand is exploited. This of course requires marketing."

so if GnR is soo huge and strong why do they need to hype it with lots of promotion?

Didn't quite get my point, did ya?

Nope, enlighten me.

I'm not expecting CD to "change the world". And I have never said that.

"Axl is recognized as one of the few artists around possibly able to create an album that can be considered one of the greatest ever."

so you are saying the "greatest album ever" won't change the world?

P.S. GnR ain't exactly "active"

Didn't say so.

Actually you are right, you didn't, I'm sorry

[nevermiss24]

i dont think they would do that but i think Pearl Jam has done it before so who knows

[Axlative]

Personally I don't giva a rats ass what the masses listen to.

So you don't think that it needs huge promotion like the bands mentioned above but it needs huge promotion. Answer my question then, what kinda promotion does it need? I told you what i thought it was gonna get at the very most.

IMO the the budget should reflect the assumed cost of the album. How the budget is then spent should depend on the music itself and Axl & Co. Whatever the mediums used, the most important thing is that it is consistent with what the band truly is. I'd prefer to see more media exposure outside ads. Get into those damn talk shows etc.

IMO that's the problem nowadays. We need to get back to a point where music is about music and not hugeness and lots of glitz and glamour, and videos and image and yadda yadda yadda, good music should be about good music. plain and simple. just cuz one band has a video and another doesn't, doesn't any one necessarily better than the other. or a commercial on tv doesn;t make a good band or song or album. it just cons people into buying it. that's all.

Of course that's the ideal we're all after. Nothing beyond music adds any real substance. What the reality is, however, is that because all those other bands do have their shit in rotation it does adversely affect the future of those that don't.

But you said "the GNR brand is one of the strongest ever." and "GNR however established their name in such a short period that relatively speaking it is stronger than almost any active band. This itself does't mean anything, but it does imply a HUGE potential for the success of the band if the full potential of the brand is exploited. This of course requires marketing."

so if GnR is soo huge and strong why do they need to hype it with lots of promotion?

Because they are not "soo huge and strong". Because they have potential to be that. And since the brand is still strong it would  be quite cost effective to capitalize on that.

What I'm after is that the effects of the promotion do not start from scratch but from a much more advantageous position where old fans & album buyers can be "resurrected" at relatively small cost.

But moreover I'm for the large-scale promotion from the supposed expensiveness of the album. That money is now a sunk cost and thus irrelevant. However, if some party has chosen to put their money in Axl's project they probably want the best possible return. And since they are (or should be) informed about the quality of the product (I assume it's great) it is a no-brainer to pour in more cash for marketing purposes because every dollar is very likely to come back in far greater amount. Very much unlike the funds consumed by the recording process which are engulfed in uncertainty. Not contributing to the promotion budget would be a financial suicide. Or at least a financial shot in the leg. Your own, that is.

Didn't quite get my point, did ya?

Nope, enlighten me.

I guess you could explain it by saying the GNR brand is "more effective". They have longevity, brand loyalty and volume all established in such a short period of time it's almost unheard of. All the other bands have had the benefit of being active through out the years. I won't touch the Beatles though... 

I'm not expecting CD to "change the world". And I have never said that.

"Axl is recognized as one of the few artists around possibly able to create an album that can be considered one of the greatest ever."

so you are saying the "greatest album ever" won't change the world?

No. I'm not saying that. The greatest album ever will change the world no matter what. 

[Axlative]

Dammit. It's getting late. Someone take over my views in this thread and keep it going

I gotta catch me some zzzz