Prop 73 in California, Children have to have consent to abort, what do u think?

[POPmetal]

How about using as a source NARAL co-founder Dr. Bernard Nathanson, who later confessed to doctoring the abortion statistics, among other things. It wasn't 1000 or a 100 daily that died from illegal abortions, it was 200-250 annually. You can read his confession as to how he and his organization duped and made a mockery out of the American public, in its entirety, right here:
http://www.aboutabortions.com/Confess.html

CONFESSION OF AN EX-ABORTIONIST

By Dr. Bernard Nathanson

 ?
I am ?personally ?responsible ?for 75,000 ?abortions. ?This ?legitimises ?my ?credentials
to speak ?to you ?with some authority ?on the issue. ?I was ?one of ?the founders of ?the
National Association for the Repeal of the Abortion Laws ?(NARAL) ?in the U.S. ?in ?1968.
A truthful ?poll ?of opinion ?then ?would have ?found ?that most ?Americans ?were against
permissive abortion. ?Yet ?within ?five ?years ?we had ?convinced ?the U.S. Supreme Court
to issue ?the decision ?which legalised abortion ?throughout America in 1973 and produced
virtual abortion on demand up to birth. How did we do this? It is important to understand
the tactics ?involved ?because these tactics ?have been used throughout the western world
with one permutation or another, in order to change abortion law. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
 
THE FIRST KEY TACTIC WAS TO CAPTURE THE MEDIA


We persuaded the media that the cause of permissive abortion was a ?liberal ?enlightened,
sophisticated one. ?Knowing that if a true poll were taken, we would be soundly defeated,
we simply fabricated the results of fictional polls. ?We announced ?to the media ?that we
had taken polls and that 60% of Americans were in favour of permissive abortion. ?This is
the tactic of the self-fulfilling lie. ?Few people care to be in the minority. We aroused
enough sympathy ?to sell our program ?of permissive abortion by fabricating the number of
illegal abortions done annually in the U.S. The actual figure was approaching 100,000 but
the figure ?we gave ?to the media ?repeatedly was 1,000,000. ?Repeating the big lie often
enough convinces the public. ?The number of women dying from illegal abortions was around
200-250 ?annually. ?The figure ?we constantly fed ?to the media ?was 10,000. ?These false
figures ?took root ?in the consciousness ?of Americans ?convincing many that we needed to
crack ?the ?abortion law. Another myth ?we fed ?to the public through the media was that
legalising abortion ?would only mean that the abortions taking place illegally would then
be done legally. ?In fact, ?of course, ?abortion is now being used as a primary method of
birth control in the U.S. and the annual number of abortions has increased by 1500% since
legalisation. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
 
THE SECOND KEY TACTIC WAS TO PLAY THE CATHOLIC CARD


We systematically ?vilified ?the Catholic Church ?and its ?"socially backward ideas" ?and
picked ?on the Catholic hierarchy ?as the villain ?in opposing abortion. ?This theme ?was
played endlessly. ?We fed the media such lies as "we all know that opposition to abortion
comes ?from the hierarchy ?and not ?from ?most Catholics" and "Polls prove time and again
that most Catholics want abortion law reform". And the media drum-fired all this into the
American people, ?persuading ?them that anyone opposing permissive abortion must be under
the ?influence ?of the ?Catholic hierarchy ?and ?that Catholics in favour of abortion are
enlightened and forward-looking. ?An inference of this tactic was that there were no non-
Catholic groups opposing abortion. The fact that other Christian as well as non-Christian
religions ?were ?{and ?still are) ?monolithically ?opposed ?to ?abortion ?was ?constantly
suppressed, along with pro-life atheists' opinions. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
 
THE THIRD KEY TACTIC WAS THE DENIGRATION AND SUPPRESSION OF ALL
SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE THAT LIFE BEGINS AT CONCEPTION


I am often asked what made me change my mind. How did I change from prominent abortionist
to pro-life advocate? In 1973, I became director of obstetrics of a large hospital in New
York City ?and had ?to set up ?a prenatal research unit, just at the start of a great new
technology ?which we now ?use every day to study the foetus in the womb. A favourite pro-
abortion tactic is to insist that the definition of when life begins is impossible; ?that
the question is ?a theological or moral or philosophical one, ?anything ?but a scientific
one. ?Foetology ?makes it undeniably evident ?that life begins at conception and requires
all the protection and safeguards that any of us enjoy. ?Why, ?you may well ask, ?do some
American doctors ?who are privy ?to the findings ?of foetology, ?discredit ?themselves by
carrying out abortions? Simple arithmetic at $300 a time, 1.55 million abortions means an
industry ?generating ?$500,000,000 annually, ?of which ?most ?goes into the pocket of the
physician ?doing ?the ?abortion. ?It is clear ?that ?permissive ?abortion ?is ?purposeful
destruction ?of ?what ?is ?undeniably ?human life. ?It is ?an impermissible act of deadly
violence. ?One ?must concede that unplanned pregnancy is a wrenchingly difficult dilemma,
but ?to look ?for its solution ?in a deliberate act ?of destruction ?is to trash the vast
resourcefulness ?of human ?ingenuity, ?and to ?surrender ?the public weal ?to the classic
utilitarian answer to social problems. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
 
AS A SCIENTIST I KNOW, NOT BELIEVE, KNOW THAT HUMAN LIFE BEGINS AT
CONCEPTION


Although ?I am not ?a formal religionist, ?I believe ?with all my heart ?that there is ?a
divinity of existence ?which commands us to declare a final and irreversible halt to this
infinitely sad and shameful crime against humanity. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
 ?

[Dr. Nathanson has since converted to Catholicism, being baptised in 1996.]

[Dr. Blutarsky]

OK then......

A girl can't get her ears pierced without parental consent, but can have an abortion? WTF!!

If the parents are not responsible adults and the girl is worried about them beating the shit out of her for being pregnant, she can ( or should be able to ) take legal action to get around that, if special circumstances exist & can be proven.

[D]

I just spoke with my mother and appoximately 100 women were dying a day from abortion - not thousands. ?I'm sure we'll just hear how you were making an example and Pop and I are making a big del out of nothing. ?Point being you exagerated the situation to strengthen your argument. ?every time we catch someone doing this, it just makes me wonder how many times we don't. ?Claims of racism and bigotry are expected. ?

Oh thank God its just 100 a day, that makes it alright!


there are girls who throw their babies in the trash, murder them and all kinds of shit because they are scared of letting their parents know.

There is a girl where I am from who got pregnant and kept her pregnancy a secret, had the baby at home, wrapped it in plastic and threw it under her porch just so her boyfriend wouldnt find out and dump her.

I dont agree with abortions but Id rather a girl be safe and have it done professionally then harm herself or a born baby.


My momma said that happiness is little rays of sunshine that come down from heaven when u are feelin blue.

[POPmetal]

there are girls who throw their babies in the trash, murder them and all kinds of shit because they are scared of letting their parents know.

There is a girl where I am from who got pregnant and kept her pregnancy a secret, had the baby at home, wrapped it in plastic and threw it under her porch just so her boyfriend wouldnt find out and dump her.

I dont agree with abortions but Id rather a girl be safe and have it done professionally then harm herself or a born baby.

Oh, thank God a doctor surgically removed the baby and threw it in the trash instead of the girl throwing it in the trash herself, that make it alright!

[SLCPUNK]

I just spoke with my mother and appoximately 100 women were dying a day from abortion - not thousands. 

She was speaking of illegal abortions......wasn't she?

And if you want to be smart about it, using your mother as a source is a logical fallacy. 

yes she was, because that was what we were discussing.  I'd like to see where using your mother is a logical fallacy SLC.

Not mother per se.....But using anybody "you know" as an expert does not count.


So are you saying a hundred a day from illegal or legal then?

[SLCPUNK]

there are girls who throw their babies in the trash, murder them and all kinds of shit because they are scared of letting their parents know.

There is a girl where I am from who got pregnant and kept her pregnancy a secret, had the baby at home, wrapped it in plastic and threw it under her porch just so her boyfriend wouldnt find out and dump her.

I dont agree with abortions but Id rather a girl be safe and have it done professionally then harm herself or a born baby.

Oh, thank God a doctor surgically removed the baby and threw it in the trash instead of the girl throwing it in the trash herself, that make it alright!

The point wasn't if it is right or not.

That is not what his reply was in reference to.

[D]

So killing a BORN child is the same as scraping the womb after a few weeks?

[POPmetal]

So killing a BORN child is the same as scraping the womb after a few weeks?

what are you scraping out of the womb?

[POPmetal]

http://www.godlessprolifers.org/

So much for the generally accepted media LIE that only 'religious conservatives' are pro-life.

[SLCPUNK]

http://www.godlessprolifers.org/

So much for the generally accepted media LIE that only 'religious conservatives' are pro-life.

What does this have to do with the thread?

And what evidence do you have to support your claim that the "generally accepted media" claims religious conseratves are the only ones who are pro life?

[POPmetal]

http://www.godlessprolifers.org/

So much for the generally accepted media LIE that only 'religious conservatives' are pro-life.

What does this have to do with the thread?

You never posted anything off topic in a thread? Does it bother you that people should know it is not true that pro-lifers are all backward and/or narrow minded 'religious conservatives,' as they are portrayed in the media.

And what evidence do you have to support your claim that the "generally accepted media" claims religious conseratves are the only ones who are pro life?

Do you want me to dig up articles that refer to pro-lifers as "religious conservatives"? It wouldn't be hard at all,? I just didn't think it was necessary, since they come a dime a dozen. But if you're the one person who hasn't encountered that, I'll do it for you...

[SLCPUNK]

You never posted anything off topic in a thread? Does it bother you that people should know it is not true that pro-lifers are all backward and/or narrow minded 'religious conservatives,' as they are portrayed in the media.

You are changing the subject yet again to back up changing the subject. You are way off course now.

Do you want me to dig up articles that refer to pro-lifers as "religious conservatives"? It wouldn't be hard at all,  I just didn't think it was necessary, since they come a dime a dozen. But if you're the one person who hasn't encountered that, I'll do it for you...

Hey...what's good for the goose.

Be ready for your own medicine if you do that though.

Don't get all pissy when the shoe is on the other foot.

[journey]

When abortion was illegalized in the early 70s, there was an epidemic of girls giving themselves abortions at home. Thousands of girls were dying everyday because of it.

Can you please back that up with a credible source?

Before 1973, abortions were performed illegally, and in unskilled ways. many women died from the awful infections and intense bleeding. In some cases, it also caused a permanent inability to have children.

Hangers and other sharp objects were often used in these illegal abortions. The fact is , since abortion became legal in 1973, deaths from abortion are rare and unlikely. In 1973, the risk was 3.4 deaths per 100,000 women; by 1985, it had dropped to .4 deaths per 100,000.

By the 1960s, almost one hundred years had passed since women had lost the right to legal abortion, and much had changed. Women had won the vote in 1920, and the development of antibiotics and the vacuum aspiration abortion technique made abortion medically safer. A landmark case, Griswold v. Connecticut, established for the first time that married coupled had a right to use contraception?and it established a right to privacy that would set the stage for a test case to decriminalize abortion. Significantly, whereas abortion had not been a common topic of conversation, there was a growing public consciousness of the dangerous choices faced by women who wished to terminate a pregnancy. Before 1973, it has been estimated that as many as 1.2 million illegal abortions happened each year, with thousands of women dying or getting injured in the process.

http://college.hmco.com/history/readerscomp/women/html/wh_030100_prochoiceand.htm

[Guns N RockMusic]

I stated that based on my mother's professional opinion (as someone who runs the pre-natal department at a major health insurance company; meaning she approves abortions through people's medical insurance with the company) the number was around 100 a day from a study. ?I base this on my mother's profession, not because she is my mother. ?And yes SLC, I was talking about ILLEGAL abortions. ?As stated earlier, I am pro-choice but I believe that life begins at conception (as all other claims would be arbitrary and based solely on moral or religious beliefs) but accept the humane euthanization of human life.

[POPmetal]

When abortion was illegalized in the early 70s, there was an epidemic of girls giving themselves abortions at home. Thousands of girls were dying everyday because of it.

Can you please back that up with a credible source?

Before 1973, abortions were performed illegally, and in unskilled ways. many women died from the awful infections and intense bleeding. In some cases, it also caused a permanent inability to have children.

Hangers and other sharp objects were often used in these illegal abortions. The fact is , since abortion became legal in 1973, deaths from abortion are rare and unlikely. In 1973, the risk was 3.4 deaths per 100,000 women; by 1985, it had dropped to .4 deaths per 100,000.

By the 1960s, almost one hundred years had passed since women had lost the right to legal abortion, and much had changed. Women had won the vote in 1920, and the development of antibiotics and the vacuum aspiration abortion technique made abortion medically safer. A landmark case, Griswold v. Connecticut, established for the first time that married coupled had a right to use contraception?and it established a right to privacy that would set the stage for a test case to decriminalize abortion. Significantly, whereas abortion had not been a common topic of conversation, there was a growing public consciousness of the dangerous choices faced by women who wished to terminate a pregnancy. Before 1973, it has been estimated that as many as 1.2 million illegal abortions happened each year, with thousands of women dying or getting injured in the process.

http://college.hmco.com/history/readerscomp/women/html/wh_030100_prochoiceand.htm

You said "Thousands of girls were dying everyday because of it." Nowhere in this source does it say that thousands of girls were dying every day. It says thousands were dying or getting injured, each year.

Why can't pro abortionists make their case without sexing up the facts?

And I like to know who did this 'estimation.' I sure hope it wasn't Dr. Bernard Nathanson or someone like him.

[SLCPUNK]

I stated that based on my mother's professional opinion (as someone who runs the pre-natal department at a major health insurance company; meaning she approves abortions through people's medical insurance with the company) the number was around 100 a day from a study.

 I base this on my mother's profession, not because she is my mother.  And yes SLC, I was talking about ILLEGAL abortions. 

Your quote just said abortions that is what I thought you meant.

It doesn't matter if she was your Mother or not. You were using an argument from hearsay.

[SLCPUNK]

Why can't pro abortionists make their case without sexing up the facts?

Can you make one without changing the subject?

[POPmetal]

Why can't pro abortionists make their case without sexing up the facts?

Can you make one without changing the subject?

Not changing the subject. We've been discussing this for a while now

[journey]

You said "Thousands of girls were dying everyday because of it." Nowhere in this source does it say that thousands of girls were dying every day. It says thousands were dying or getting injured, each year.

Why can't pro abortionists make their case without sexing up the facts?

I'm sorry that I was off on my original estimation. I'm not a historian.

By the way, I'm not a pro abortionist. I'm pro rights. I told you that in an earlier post.

[pilferk]

When abortion was illegalized in the early 70s, there was an epidemic of girls giving themselves abortions at home. Thousands of girls were dying everyday because of it.

Can you please back that up with a credible source?

It's a pretty well known fact. Although it would be impossible to give stats one way or the other.

Actually....it's not.

The truth is, the stat that "thousands" of girls were dying was from a book called "Abortion, Spontaneous and Induced " in the 1930's by Dr. Frederick Taussig. ?It isn't a great indicator because of some "fuzzy" math, though it is often quoted.

The Pro-Lifers use some "fuzzy math" of their own, and assert it's more like 100 to 200 deaths annually. ?That, too, has been proven to be not quite accurate.

The truth is, statistics on the subject, at a national level, are almost impossible to come by until after Roe v Wade (with the exception of some widely spaced out, and all inclusive, CDC figures). ?Once Roe v Wade occurred, no one can deny that the mortality rate dropped. ?The problem is..no one can really tell by just how much.

Personally, I think the fact that it dropped (even by the Pro-Lifers estimation) from 100 to 200 down to about 40 the year after R v W (according to the CDC) is still pretty compelling. ?No matter WHICH numbers we use, there was a dramatic drop in the mortality rate.