Teacher Fired For His Beliefs

[Charity Case]

I have no problem with this guy.  He has a position he stands behind and it makes sense.  I can see his reasoning for not wanting the flag.  I can see where he has the support of staunch Catholics on this issue.

I also have no problem with the school's action.  They have rules.  He broke the rules.  They gave him some rope and let him appeal the rules.  He refused to follow the rules.  They terminated him.  I have no issue with that either.

Seems like a non news story to me.   

[Axls Locomotive]

so he doesnt have the choice of displaying the flag or not? what a surprise

i wonder if that still would be the case if most of the students in the class were foreign...

along with that stupid pledge of allegiance or whatever you call it, i find it most amusing...talk about early brainwashing

And the "group I represent" is called offensive.  I am deeply bothered by that comment and that certainly isn't the open minded mentality the admins of this board advocate. Now let's wait and see if anything is done about it or if that rule only applies when someone offends liberal and anti-nationalist/patriotic beliefs.

which comment are you referring to?

I'm a nationalist and i advocate independence for my country, i am patriotic but not to the point where i feel obliged to do as the government says...thats just blind and dumb imo

btw im not what you call a liberal either...and i try not to fit people into one group or the other...its all just pointless name calling just to drive stereotypical views into the heads of others

[Timothy]

There is a nation wide epidemic of teachers sleeping with students,  low grad rates, gangs, drugs/alcohol, and so many more problems

It's not like those things are something that hasn't been going on for years.



Besides this was a private school. each one has a diffrent standered for hat their teachers are too do.

[AxlsMainMan]

How exactly is the American Flag offensive?

He doesn't say it's offensive:

"The crucifix cancels all flags," said Kobasa, a longtime peace activist. "Christ speaks of compassion without boundaries. ...Flags are about separation, assertions of superiority and aggression. The whole notion that loyalty to country is connected to one's religious faith is totally bizarre and unjustified."

Despite not being spiritual or religious myself, I can totally understand and sympathize with that statement. Being patriotic and expressing your country's superiority really has no place being in close vacinity of your cherished religious materials, its just not right. The man loosing his job over this I think is horeshit, but in the same regard if he was in direct violation of a *cough*bullshit*cough* rule than not much can really be done to reinstate him..

[Guns N RockMusic]

so he doesnt have the choice of displaying the flag or not? what a surprise

i wonder if that still would be the case if most of the students in the class were foreign...

along with that stupid pledge of allegiance or whatever you call it, i find it most amusing...talk about early brainwashing

And the "group I represent" is called offensive.? I am deeply bothered by that comment and that certainly isn't the open minded mentality the admins of this board advocate. Now let's wait and see if anything is done about it or if that rule only applies when someone offends liberal and anti-nationalist/patriotic beliefs.

which comment are you referring to?

I'm a nationalist and i advocate independence for my country, i am patriotic but not to the point where i feel obliged to do as the government says...thats just blind and dumb imo

btw im not what you call a liberal either...and i try not to fit people into one group or the other...its all just pointless name calling just to drive stereotypical views into the heads of others

I was refering to your third sentence:

along with that stupid pledge of allegiance or whatever you call it, i find it most amusing...talk about early brainwashing

Do you even know the Pledge of Allegiance??

I pledge allegiance to the flag
of the United States of America
And to the Republic
For which it stands
One Nation, Under God
Indivisible
With Liberty and Justice for all

Explain to me how making this statement being optional at the beggining of school each morning is brainwashing?? Pledging your allegiance to your country on teh basis of democracy and freedom for all?

[sandman]

it's a private school with standards they want followed. there's really nothing to discuss here. they are PRIVATE.

and this is a slippery slope issue. the school wants to set forth certain standards. if you allow one person to break the standards the school wants followed, what happens when someone says they don't want to hang the crucifix in their room cause they are not christian, or if someone doesn't want to follow dress codes, etc., etc.

[SLCPUNK]

it's a private school with standards they want followed. there's really nothing to discuss here. they are PRIVATE.

and this is a slippery slope issue. the school wants to set forth certain standards. if you allow one person to break the standards the school wants followed, what happens when someone says they don't want to hang the crucifix in their room cause they are not christian, or if someone doesn't want to follow dress codes, etc., etc.

"Slippery slope" is not really a valid point in any argument.

Besides, it's a Christian school he was teaching in, I doubt anybody would complain because they weren't Christian.

[Axls Locomotive]

Do you even know the Pledge of Allegiance? 

I pledge allegiance to the flag
of the United States of America
And to the Republic
For which it stands
One Nation, Under God
Indivisible
With Liberty and Justice for all

Explain to me how making this statement being optional at the beggining of school each morning is brainwashing?  Pledging your allegiance to your country on teh basis of democracy and freedom for all?

why do you have to pledge allegiance to anyone?...as far as i have seen the pledge is not optional for many...do you think children will not say the pledge while others say it and teachers promote it? kids will join in, naturally...this goes against the will to have freedom of speech imo...why should anyone dictate to you what the flag means to you alone?

the average person probably recites the pledge over 1500 times do they not? is once not enough? to me its like the radio station plugging their latest pop song...put it on a hundred times and youll be sure people will start to recite the words and hum the tune

why do they have the flag in every classroom? whats the point? to reinforce the message that you have to be patriotic to your country in a certain way...thats the difference between me and you...i dont need that...i love my country, i love my flag but i dont need people to tell me what they mean to me nor do i need a pledge, nor do i need to outdo others about how patriotic i am

[SLCPUNK]

the average person probably recites the pledge over 1500 times do they not? is once not enough? to me its like the radio station plugging their latest pop song...put it on a hundred times and youll be sure people will start to recite the words and hum the tune

why do they have the flag in every classroom? whats the point? to reinforce the message that you have to be patriotic to your country in a certain way...thats the difference between me and you...i dont need that...i love my country, i love my flag but i dont need people to tell me what they mean to me nor do i need a pledge, nor do i need to outdo others about how patriotic i am

I agree.

Something loses its meaning after being droned out day after day for 12 yrs.

You can certainly be patiotic without having flags hanging all over the place. You can see that any question made of this gets people pretty angry, which really supports your claim.

 Pledging your allegiance to your country on teh basis of democracy and freedom for all?

Having the CHOICE to make the pledge or not is democracy. Choice is provided yes.

 But to fire somebody for chosing to take the flag down after the pledge isn't very democratic. However it is a private school with their own rules, and they are welcome to be as backasswards as they like.

[Surfrider]

why do you have to pledge allegiance to anyone?...as far as i have seen the pledge is not optional for many...do you think children will not say the pledge while others say it and teachers promote it? kids will join in, naturally...this goes against the will to have freedom of speech imo...why should anyone dictate to you what the flag means to you alone?

Wouldn't it also go against freedom of speech to take it down so others couldn't sy it?  Does it also go against freedom of speech when teachers require students to read certain history books?

the average person probably recites the pledge over 1500 times do they not? is once not enough? to me its like the radio station plugging their latest pop song...put it on a hundred times and youll be sure people will start to recite the words and hum the tune

It is one of those things.  By have the kids say it in the morning they are constantly reminded of the sacrifices made for the freedoms they have.

why do they have the flag in every classroom? whats the point? to reinforce the message that you have to be patriotic to your country in a certain way...thats the difference between me and you...i dont need that...i love my country, i love my flag but i dont need people to tell me what they mean to me nor do i need a pledge, nor do i need to outdo others about how patriotic i am

You may not, but you recognize that there is a difference in perspectives.  So should the flag get taken down because you alone do not need that?

[Surfrider]

it's a private school with standards they want followed. there's really nothing to discuss here. they are PRIVATE.

and this is a slippery slope issue. the school wants to set forth certain standards. if you allow one person to break the standards the school wants followed, what happens when someone says they don't want to hang the crucifix in their room cause they are not christian, or if someone doesn't want to follow dress codes, etc., etc.

"Slippery slope" is not really a valid point in any argument.

Besides, it's a Christian school he was teaching in, I doubt anybody would complain because they weren't Christian.

Actually slippery slopes are often times very valid arguments.

[sandman]

it's a private school with standards they want followed. there's really nothing to discuss here. they are PRIVATE.

and this is a slippery slope issue. the school wants to set forth certain standards. if you allow one person to break the standards the school wants followed, what happens when someone says they don't want to hang the crucifix in their room cause they are not christian, or if someone doesn't want to follow dress codes, etc., etc.

"Slippery slope" is not really a valid point in any argument.

Besides, it's a Christian school he was teaching in, I doubt anybody would complain because they weren't Christian.

Actually slippery slopes are often times very valid arguments.

they sure are valid arguments. on both sides of any issue, people are scared if they give an inch it will turn into a mile.

slc - i think you may have missed my point. if a jewish teacher teaches at a catholic school, the crucifix must remain hanging in their classroom.

my point is that a teacher, student or anyone else participating in activities at PRIVATE institutions must follow the rules set forth.

[SLCPUNK]

Actually slippery slopes are often times very valid arguments.

They would not be accepted in any formal debate, only talking head type shows use them.

my point is that a teacher, student or anyone else participating in activities at PRIVATE institutions must follow the rules set forth.

I already said that, and agreed.

I don't accept your analogy though.

[Axls Locomotive]

Wouldn't it also go against freedom of speech to take it down so others couldn't sy it?  Does it also go against freedom of speech when teachers require students to read certain history books?
.....etc

ok,an analogy... Bush tells society on TV that shopping malls should start saying the pledge of allegiance twice a day every day...people would probably get used to it being there every day right?...a few years later, the next president comes along and says, no we dont need this to happen and wants the pledge in shopping malls to discontinue...what do you think will happen? first you would get all these people saying its against freedom of speech...why should people care? you never needed it before did you? and you can recite it whenever you want right? do you think would anyone stop you from doing that? i doubt that......if it really is against freedom of speech then you wouldnt allowed to be saying the pledge at all.

also your point of reminding people that others made sacrifices for your country...surely that is down to opinion...some people dont care, some people do...i believe that forcing people to listen to something they dont want to listen to is against freedom of choice...also there are plenty of reminders every year of such events so why should you have to listen to it every day at school...

i had to recite the lords prayer when i was a child...nothing to do with my beliefs as even as a child i was an athiest...do you think its right that i had to listen to it? do you think i had a choice? nope...so thats not democratic, yes?...i think ive heard that prayer far more times than ive listened to any single song that i like...dont you think that is too many times? once a year i could just about understand but once a day?? crazy

[journey]

That school is doing a disservice to their students. They're teaching them that it's ok to be intolerant of other peoples' beliefs. They teach freedom of religion, but don't practice it. If they want to have a communist school then they should only hire teachers who share the same beliefs.

[pilferk]

slc - i think you may have missed my point. if a jewish teacher teaches at a catholic school, the crucifix must remain hanging in their classroom.

Just a quick point:

You'd be pretty unlikely to find a jewish teacher teaching in a catholic school.  There is actual legislation in place (or wording attached to legislation) that allows religious institutions (like schools and such) to hire BASED ON religion.  In other words, they can choose to hire all Catholics and I would bet finding a non-Cathoilc teachiing in a private Catholic School would be unlikely, if not impossible.

Just wanted to point that out....

[pilferk]

That school is doing a disservice to their students. They're teaching them that it's ok to be intolerant of other peoples' beliefs. They teach freedom of religion, but don't practice it. If they want to have a communist school then they should only hire teachers who share the same beliefs.

That's one of the points that the ticked off parents and teachers are making in the local media.  They're also pointing out the guy is a damn good teacher.  A bunch of the parents are promising to pull their kids out of school after this semester and send them elsewhere.  In addition, a couple of their top athletes are promising they will not play.  They've said they don't really expect him to be reinstated, either.

[Sterlingdog]

If anyone is really interested, I have a list of "Invalid Arguments" - Slippery Slope is number 15.  The rest of list is kind of interesting, if you like to debate people.  Hey, SLC - Strawman is on there too. 

http://www.intellectualloafing.com/activitiesfolder/beinformedfolder/invalidarguments.htm

[D]

I can see both sides of this.

I really dont see the big deal in not displaying the flag, I mean who gives a shit?

however

A Private business has the right to enforce any rule they see fit, so if it was a rule and they warned this guy countless times, then I guess the firing was justified.

Just like at fast food restaurants they make their employees wear a certain pair of pants.

I mean do u give a fuck what color of pants the person serving your food to u is wearing?

Still if they showed up to work with blue jeans everyday they'd get fired.

Same here, they told him to hang the flag, he didnt, he gets fired.

Company policy no matter how fucked up it is still applies and has to be followed.


I dont agree with the firing at all but if its their policy, its their policy.

[Guns N RockMusic]

If anyone is really interested, I have a list of "Invalid Arguments" - Slippery Slope is number 15.? The rest of list is kind of interesting, if you like to debate people.? Hey, SLC - Strawman is on there too.?

http://www.intellectualloafing.com/activitiesfolder/beinformedfolder/invalidarguments.htm

It's all based on logic.  There is a logical reason why all of those arguments are invalid.  the problem is that the majority of posters and comments on this board are logically invalid (even SLC who constantly calls someone a liar or hypocrite - both of which are logical fallacies.)  the sad part is that most of the people here don't even know what a stram man or ad hominem is, even after they might click that link.