Jim Barber (a&r for Geffen) on Chinese in 98-99

[WARose]

well  first....  axl`s cool

i think it`s pretty obvious that there are vocals recorded allready. we listened to oh my god, some studio cuts in a tour promo and the IRS demo. and i really don`t think that brian may is lieing. by the way brian may wasn`t the only person implying that there are songs with vocals existing.

the songs on the trunk cd for example had vocals...

[Eva GnRAxlRosette]

he put "oh my god" on a soundtrack to shut the suits up-? same with the tour and the vma's.? he got paid to go out on tour with these people and when he got bored with it he dropped it.? ? ?he'll do it all again sometime... maybe... if he feels like it-

Oh really?? Where did you hear that??


My problem with the 'positive' posters is that they are so 100% extreme on all positions.? What good has ever come out of being extremists in anything?? There is a happy medium to everything.? People are so sure about everything and when I ask for some kind of material to support what they say 99% of the time there is nothing to back up their claims.? It is all based on 'faith' in Axl.? It is all the gut feeling on the part of the people posting.? All I want is something to back up what they are saying.?

we are all here to communicate with others about our views. ?my views shouldn't be a problem for you anymore than yours are a problem to me.

what is so extreme about saying i'm not worried about whether there were vocals recorded in this year or that year? ?why am I not worried? ?Because it's a safe bet that the album is not going to be released without vocals! ?you want me to back that up? ?Well, obviously until the album is released I can't prove that there's vocals for the album! ? Since the album is not released and no one here - not you or me - knows what's going on all that's left to consider is our opinions - out views - what we think - what we believe. ?Whatever it is you believe - it's not based on any knowledge. ?So what is that? ?How is it more valid than my 'faith'?
It's not. ?It's all open to interpretation... ? ?What's the problem with that? ?

I'm not judging anyone who has doubts about the album or what's going on with it and is worried about it. ?Considering how little we know it's understandable.

As I said - MY PROBLEM is with people who insult and make negative personal characterizations about me or dave or other fans simply because we express a positive attitude... ?that we believe something which can't be held in evidence at present.

Don't characterize me as an extremeist...? ?There is nothing abnormal about supporting an artist's endeavors.? My support of Axl and the new band isn't based on an extreme or abnormal premise.? People support artists' forthcoming work all the time... based on what the artist has produced to date, based on what the artist shares about his ambitions - people form opinions about what they believe to be the artists potential.? What is exteme about that?? What is abnormal about that?? So long as Axl hasn't given up - WHICH HE HAS NOT - then I believe he WILL accomplish his goals....? ?

Should I take this guys comments to believe that Axl didn't record vocals for CD as of 98 or 99?  I could.  Should that make any difference?  It wouldn't change that Axl has not given up.  Do I believe that it's beyond the scope of possibility for Axl to give up?  No.  It's possible.  I don't believe he will give up. However, I'm not denying the possibility that he could give up.  If I did deny the possibility that Axl could give up then I would be an extremist. 

I'm not vocal about my support because I want something in return... ?I am vocal because I believe its encouraging to others. ?And that is something that is obviously needed for the GN'R fan internet based community.

Call me a cheerleader if it makes you feel better. ?I believe in Axl and the new band and I'm cheering them on. ?If its annoying to anyone that really is just too fucking bad for them. ?They can come back when the whistle blows. ?No one is forcing anyone to watch the pre-game show. ?

[ppbebe]

the same is true of the negative posters. Or rather, it's more true.

IMO would be the magic word.

I don't agree but that's just my opinion.. I see someone like james lofton who loves the new band and says some cool shit about a few of the new tunes but disagrees with the time it takes and the actions or lack of them by axl.. He can be a perfectionist or take forever but there's nothing wrong with keeping the fans somewhat informed and allowing the band members to at least speak for him..

I don't agree and that's not just my opinion. The negative ppl tend to state hearsay n imagination for facts. What's more, some of them keep bringing up the same BS that already got refuted again and again, just like a broken record or 'Number 9' by the Beatles (isn't it off White album? ).

As for the certain poster, I think you're wrong again.
Say it after you go through his posting history for a word anywhere similar to 'IMO' or for any coherency among his arguments. Or quicky, Read magadas post and his in this thread.   
Nothing personal btw. I'm aware of a bit of improvement in his recent posts.

[jarmo]

This seems to be the original source: http://www.poptones.co.uk/index.php?/questions_of_doom/more/james_barber_record_producer_a_and_r_legand_and_the_man/



/jarmo

[Eva GnRAxlRosette]

Its slash is gnr under a different name I bet eva. What do you think? 4 of his first 5 posts are aimed at me.
What do you think?

ah dave... i believe you are right.

now it all makes sense.

besides explaining why all of BabyGorilla's post have been addressed towards you it would explain his "gestapo" comment and all the comments about "Discipline" and the comment about the board needing an enema... ?SlashIsGNR was banned... and if BabyGorilla is the same person, then it would appear he is back under a different user name to stalk you some more and to call Jarmo a "Gestapo"

It has to do with what gnfnr2k said about accepting Axl for being Axl and not questioning his actions or motives. Axl is our Fuehrer and we are the Gestapo. We should not question anything Axl does, just aceept them and take what is given to us. No complaining. If you complain...you get discipline! Do you like discipline!?

I mean which country do they think they live in? America? There is a reason why this album is called Chinese Democracy. Because a Chinese democracy would not be a real democracy. It would just appear as so on the surface but underneath it all, those who question or complain about the authority will be DISIPLINED by their peers. OR we can get along with these so-called "fans." Oh yes, I will get along with them. Then, I will hug some snakes...yes! Then, I will hug and kiss some poisonous SNAKES! ?

If you thought gnfn2k was a blind fanboy then you haven't seen nothing yet. ::puts on my Jack Nicholson Joker voice:: Wait'll you guys get a load of me. This board needs an enema! ?

[BabyGorilla]

I don't understand where all this is coming from. I am agreeing with you and gnfnr2k. We should accept Axl for who he is. If Axl is the kind of person who doesn't feel the need to explain himself for missing out on a show and leaving his band in the cold than we should accept it and get on with our lives. I really do not connect with these "fans" who are promised an album in 2005 yet complain when it doesn't come out. I mean which country do they think they live in? America? There is a reason why this album is called Chinese Democracy. Because a Chinese democracy would not be a real democracy. It would just appear as so on the surface but underneath it all, those who question or complain about the authority will be DISIPLINED by their peers. OR we can get along with these so-called "fans." Oh yes, I will get along with them. Then, I will hug some snakes...yes! Then, I will hug and kiss some poisonous SNAKES! 

as for agreeing with me and dave you're posts are getting more twisted by the minute

if you're looking for snakes you are in the wrong section of the board. 

what's all this talk about discipline?  lol!
you into S&M or something?  lol!

mikegiuliana.....   I doesn't bother me if anyone wants to vent their frustration about the album coming out.  what irks me is when some fans accuse fans like dave or I of being up Axl's ass just because we're not frustrated.

Its slash is gnr under a different name I bet eva. What do you think? 4 of his first 5 posts are aimed at me.
What do you think?

My post are aimed towards you because I am such a huge fan of yours. Everything you say makes so much sense. I think you, me, and Lollyzone should all make a pilgrimage to Axl's Malibu estate. What do you think? 

[jarmo]

If you got nothing to add, please don't even bother posting. 



/jarmo

[WAR41]

what is so extreme about saying i'm not worried about whether there were vocals recorded in this year or that year?  why am I not worried?  Because it's a safe bet that the album is not going to be released without vocals!  you want me to back that up?  Well, obviously until the album is released I can't prove that there's vocals for the album!   Since the album is not released and no one here - not you or me - knows what's going on all that's left to consider is our opinions - out views - what we think - what we believe.  Whatever it is you believe - it's not based on any knowledge.  So what is that?  How is it more valid than my 'faith'?
It's not.  It's all open to interpretation...    What's the problem with that? 

As I said - MY PROBLEM is with people who insult and make negative personal characterizations about me or dave or other fans simply because we express a positive attitude...  that we believe something which can't be held in evidence at present.


 And that is something that is obviously needed for the GN'R fan internet based community.
 I believe in Axl and the new band and I'm cheering them on.  If its annoying to anyone that really is just too fucking bad for them. 

Eva, It is FINE to have a positive outlook on things.  But most of the time, Dave especially, has an unrealistic view of things.  For example (see I am using evidence) when we were discussing if old songs were going to be played on the next (if it happens) tour.  I did my own random sample of GNR shows from 1992, 1993, and 2002 to see how many songs were played.  It was between 16-19 songs NOT COUNTING intros, solos, etc.  Dave simply stated 20-25 songs on average each night.  Where did this come from?  It was a blind guess.

And even in this post, the person who mentioned that Axl released OMG and toured to appease the 'suits'.  I ask where this information came from as I have never heard that before, and I get a defensive remark.  I just wish people would actually put more factual evidence and thought into a post rather than their emotion. 

I always make an effort to see both sides of things.  I will always choose either side, but I ACKNOWLEDGE the other side.  Most of the time when a 'negative' comment is made by one of 'us', it is shot down without anyone even considering it.  Even when we explain our position, using past actions and quotes by current band members, using quotes from past band members, using quotes from past managers, roadies, and whoever, we all get shot down.  Sure some of the quotes conflict.  Everything is not going to be one smooth timeline where everything flows easily.  There are conflicting reports sometimes.

But it is ridiculous when we are attacked for wanting some factual evidence from you positive people to back up your claims.  Of course no one can look into the future and tell when the album will come, how many songs will be played on the tour, how long shows will be, when the album AFTER CD will be released.... but we can make an educated guess as to how things will play out, based on what we have seen and experienced in the past.  Axl and the new guys have said a lot of things in the past that has yet to come true.  Its hard to take their word on anything anymore. 

This is where the pessimism comes from.  This is why we, the 'negative' folks, want to understand WHY you feel a certain way.  And if it is based on pure emotion and gut feelings then I am sorry, but you should expect to be questioned about it.  Just don't get too defensive. 

I await your angry responses...

[dave-gnfnr2k]

what is so extreme about saying i'm not worried about whether there were vocals recorded in this year or that year?? why am I not worried?? Because it's a safe bet that the album is not going to be released without vocals!? you want me to back that up?? Well, obviously until the album is released I can't prove that there's vocals for the album!? ?Since the album is not released and no one here - not you or me - knows what's going on all that's left to consider is our opinions - out views - what we think - what we believe.? Whatever it is you believe - it's not based on any knowledge.? So what is that?? How is it more valid than my 'faith'?
It's not.? It's all open to interpretation...? ? What's the problem with that??

As I said - MY PROBLEM is with people who insult and make negative personal characterizations about me or dave or other fans simply because we express a positive attitude...? that we believe something which can't be held in evidence at present.


 And that is something that is obviously needed for the GN'R fan internet based community.
 I believe in Axl and the new band and I'm cheering them on.? If its annoying to anyone that really is just too fucking bad for them.?

Eva, It is FINE to have a positive outlook on things.? But most of the time, Dave especially, has an unrealistic view of things.? For example (see I am using evidence) when we were discussing if old songs were going to be played on the next (if it happens) tour.? I did my own random sample of GNR shows from 1992, 1993, and 2002 to see how many songs were played.? It was between 16-19 songs NOT COUNTING intros, solos, etc.? Dave simply stated 20-25 songs on average each night.? Where did this come from?? It was a blind guess.

And even in this post, the person who mentioned that Axl released OMG and toured to appease the 'suits'.? I ask where this information came from as I have never heard that before, and I get a defensive remark.? I just wish people would actually put more factual evidence and thought into a post rather than their emotion.?

I always make an effort to see both sides of things.? I will always choose either side, but I ACKNOWLEDGE the other side.? Most of the time when a 'negative' comment is made by one of 'us', it is shot down without anyone even considering it.? Even when we explain our position, using past actions and quotes by current band members, using quotes from past band members, using quotes from past managers, roadies, and whoever, we all get shot down.? Sure some of the quotes conflict.? Everything is not going to be one smooth timeline where everything flows easily.? There are conflicting reports sometimes.

But it is ridiculous when we are attacked for wanting some factual evidence from you positive people to back up your claims.? Of course no one can look into the future and tell when the album will come, how many songs will be played on the tour, how long shows will be, when the album AFTER CD will be released.... but we can make an educated guess as to how things will play out, based on what we have seen and experienced in the past.? Axl and the new guys have said a lot of things in the past that has yet to come true.? Its hard to take their word on anything anymore.?

This is where the pessimism comes from.? This is why we, the 'negative' folks, want to understand WHY you feel a certain way.? And if it is based on pure emotion and gut feelings then I am sorry, but you should expect to be questioned about it.? Just don't get too defensive.?

I await your angry responses...

How do I have an unrealistic view of things when you are quoting a guy who heard songs back in 1998/1999? That was 5 years ago, you really dont think from that point to know Axl has layed down vocals? I could see if he said that in 2005 that he heard songs and axl didnt have vocals for then you can worry, but why even complain about this when it was years before MAy said he heard 3 albums of songs with vocals?  It does not make any sense. Like I said certain people here will take a totally postive statement about axl put a negative spin on it.

Now you ask where did I get my number of songs a nite from? Like I said it was just a guess but 20-25 songs seems like a good number since they always played around 20. The extra 5 come from extra songs since they prob wont have guitar solos or drum solos on the CD tour.

Like I said most of us have been gnr fans since 86/87 and we know how axl is, so why are people still complaining about how he is?

[mikegiuliana]

I think 25 would be tough for axl to pull off.. His high voice and the frequency of shows.. That's just me though, but on occassion where there are a bunch of days off the show can be extended..

[dave-gnfnr2k]

I think 25 would be tough for axl to pull off.. His high voice and the frequency of shows.. That's just me though, but on occassion where there are a bunch of days off the show can be extended..

20 will most likey be the  number of songs played each night, 25 was the high end.

[Eva GnRAxlRosette]

Eva, It is FINE to have a positive outlook on things. But most of the time, Dave especially, has an unrealistic view of things. For example (see I am using evidence) when we were discussing if old songs were going to be played on the next (if it happens) tour. I did my own random sample of GNR shows from 1992, 1993, and 2002 to see how many songs were played. It was between 16-19 songs NOT COUNTING intros, solos, etc. Dave simply stated 20-25 songs on average each night. Where did this come from? It was a blind guess.

And even in this post, the person who mentioned that Axl released OMG and toured to appease the 'suits'. I ask where this information came from as I have never heard that before, and I get a defensive remark. I just wish people would actually put more factual evidence and thought into a post rather than their emotion.

I always make an effort to see both sides of things. I will always choose either side, but I ACKNOWLEDGE the other side. Most of the time when a 'negative' comment is made by one of 'us', it is shot down without anyone even considering it. Even when we explain our position, using past actions and quotes by current band members, using quotes from past band members, using quotes from past managers, roadies, and whoever, we all get shot down. Sure some of the quotes conflict. Everything is not going to be one smooth timeline where everything flows easily. There are conflicting reports sometimes.

But it is ridiculous when we are attacked for wanting some factual evidence from you positive people to back up your claims. Of course no one can look into the future and tell when the album will come, how many songs will be played on the tour, how long shows will be, when the album AFTER CD will be released.... but we can make an educated guess as to how things will play out, based on what we have seen and experienced in the past. Axl and the new guys have said a lot of things in the past that has yet to come true. Its hard to take their word on anything anymore.

This is where the pessimism comes from. This is why we, the 'negative' folks, want to understand WHY you feel a certain way. And if it is based on pure emotion and gut feelings then I am sorry, but you should expect to be questioned about it. Just don't get too defensive.

I await your angry responses...

i already said it's all open to interpretation.

you say you 'explain' your positions are based on past actions and quotes... and you demand that we explain ours
 
i already said

There is nothing abnormal about supporting an artist's endeavors.? My support of Axl and the new band isn't based on an extreme or abnormal premise.? People support artists' forthcoming work all the time... based on what the artist has produced to date, based on what the artist shares about his ambitions - people form opinions about what they believe to be the artists potential.? What is exteme about that?? What is abnormal about that?? So long as Axl hasn't given up - WHICH HE HAS NOT - then I believe he WILL accomplish his goals....? ?

I believe that the album will be released because Axl has not given up.. and shows no signs of giving up.
you want to make an effort to see something... try to see that?

as far as me being unrealistic or extreme... I already said:

Do I believe that it's beyond the scope of possibility for Axl to give up? No. It's possible. I don't believe he will give up. However, I'm not denying the possibility that he could give up. If I did deny the possibility that Axl could give up then I would be an extremist.

so I do recognize / acknowledge both sides.

[lynn1961]

If Axl decides he wants to beat up his wife and girlfriend then tough for them. They should just accept Axl for being Axl and stop bitching about getting hit. Hell, if they didn't bitch so much Axl probably wouldn't hit them in the first place. Stupid bitches. I LOVE YOU AXL!

Oh my God.? You're sick, you know that?? I just can't even believe you posted that or that I'm reading it, specifically, "..if they didn't bitch so much Axl probably wouldn't hit them in the first place.? Stupid bitches."? ? You scare me!

Anyway, why do I post here, if I feel this way?? Because I loved GnR.? Axl's made this into a joke.? For those of us who feel this way, our opinion means something, as well.? (Plus, I love to see people get all freaked out about this.? Can't help it.)? ? ? ? ?

Oh my darling why did you change?
What are you two doing here then? Stalking? Haunting the board?
Both of you sound pretty sick.

This is off topic, but just for a minute.? What did I say that was "sick"?? Because I said I "love to see people get all freaked out about this"?? ?Is that "sick"?? Is that considered stalking?? In my own defense, here, this is a forum where people post opinions about stuff, and all of us have different ones.? Maybe I should explain myself better by saying that I like to read the different opinions that are posted about the release of CD and about Axl.? Some (and I'm only saying some) people, from either side of the fence,? get so defensive when it comes to these topics, and it's interesting - for all of us - or we wouldn't be here.? I don't think that's stalking.? Plus, what was said by BG was sick.? I can only hope it was a joke.? ? ?

[mr_yoshimaroka]

If ever proof was needed that it was Axl causing the delay....

Why can't he just record some vocals - again and again we're told the music's done but the vocals aren't done. I wonder why

He is a perctionist. Hell it took Brian Wilson like 30 years to finish Smile.

It did not take Brian Wilson 30 years to finish Smile. He made the album in a year or two. It was withheld from release for 30 years because he had major personal problems.

[Mikkamakka]

Officer Frank Serpico, as a music fan, don't you feel psyched out with the way he described the shits?
"sounded like GNR but there were elements of Zeppelin, Nine Inch Nails and Pink Floyd mixed in"
Come on, All your favs, aren't they?

I'd rather want a true GN'R record over anything else since GN'R is my all time favourite band, but you are right, I really like Zep and NIN. BTW I'll happy to hear new material from Axl if it sounds like Barber described.

But I'm not psyched to read this since there isn't too much hope that this info is still relevant. Axl could have changed the whole idea 1000 times since then, I don't know how much of the '98-'99 material will be on the album (in a very different form...) and last but not least I don't see a release date. I don't hype myself for things that won't happen.

[WARose]

If ever proof was needed that it was Axl causing the delay....

Why can't he just record some vocals - again and again we're told the music's done but the vocals aren't done. I wonder why

He is a perctionist. Hell it took Brian Wilson like 30 years to finish Smile.

It did not take Brian Wilson 30 years to finish Smile. He made the album in a year or two. It was withheld from release for 30 years because he had major personal problems.

well since we know nearly nothing, axl could very likely face the same problems. his past comments about "former friends" trying to hinder him from releasing CD and playing as gnr aswell as the whole situation point to that.

and one shouldn`t forget that after 98-99 new members joined the band, who had new ideas....

[PhillyRiot]

TO say the vocals did not get laid down because of pirating is a little crazy to me.  I mean you take the risk and lay them down at some point.  Otherwise it was just a bunch of  musicians being conducted by Axl.

[jameslofton29]

Good point, PhillyRiot. If these gag orders ever expire, it will be interesting to see what the late 90's version of GNR has to say about what happened during that time frame. I know this project has always been under a veil of secrecy. But at some point in the future, some of the people involved are going to break the silence.

[Thorazine Shuffle]

Good point, PhillyRiot. If these gag orders ever expire, it will be interesting to see what the late 90's version of GNR has to say about what happened during that time frame. I know this project has always been under a veil of secrecy. But at some point in the future, some of the people involved are going to break the silence.

Not only that James, I would say that once Geffen puts their foot down and forces the release, alot of "scrap" songs from that time period could be released.

[ppbebe]

But I'm not psyched to read this since there isn't too much hope that this info is still relevant. Axl could have changed the whole idea 1000 times since then, I don't know how much of the '98-'99 material will be on the album (in a very different form...) and last but not least I don't see a release date. I don't hype myself for things that won't happen.

It took Michelangelo bloody 7Years to paint a wall of Sistine with 'the last judgement'.
The painting is magestic and truely earthshattering as seen now, but until finished and delivered it would have been no better than 'graffiti on the wall' of an incredible and pretty building.

If Axl decides he wants to beat up his wife and girlfriend then tough for them. They should just accept Axl for being Axl and stop bitching about getting hit. Hell, if they didn't bitch so much Axl probably wouldn't hit them in the first place. Stupid bitches. I LOVE YOU AXL!

Oh my God.  You're sick, you know that?  I just can't even believe you posted that or that I'm reading it, specifically, "..if they didn't bitch so much Axl probably wouldn't hit them in the first place.  Stupid bitches."    You scare me!

Anyway, why do I post here, if I feel this way?  Because I loved GnR.  Axl's made this into a joke.  For those of us who feel this way, our opinion means something, as well.  (Plus, I love to see people get all freaked out about this.  Can't help it.)         

Oh my darling why did you change?
What are you two doing here then? Stalking? Haunting the board?
Both of you sound pretty sick.

This is off topic, but just for a minute.  What did I say that was "sick"?  Because I said I "love to see people get all freaked out about this"?   Is that "sick"?  Is that considered stalking?  In my own defense, here, this is a forum where people post opinions about stuff, and all of us have different ones.  Maybe I should explain myself better by saying that I like to read the different opinions that are posted about the release of CD and about Axl.  Some (and I'm only saying some) people, from either side of the fence,  get so defensive when it comes to these topics, and it's interesting - for all of us - or we wouldn't be here.  I don't think that's stalking.  Plus, what was said by BG was sick.  I can only hope it was a joke.     

Giving continual disturbance to the certain object that you bear a grudge against, the band or the fan, shall be considered as a stalking act. it's even sicker if it's for a fun.
You say you used to like the band and not anymore because of the member changes, which would be fine if you didn't intrude it into so many threads irreverently. Your real motive in posting in the threads discussing  the band and the music you're uninterested in is now quite questionable. (I'm not talking about your posts in the threads on the old band or otherwise.)  It seems as if you're attempting to drag us to a fruitless off topic argument, like in this thread, which you're likely to go on about and I shan't anymore. Enough is enough.