When CD comes out and they finally tour will gnr play all of chinese democracy?

[mikegiuliana]

Mike, you make some valid points. The original fans of the band are much different than the newer generation of fans. We experienced GNR in real time, seen things as they unfolded. And us "old" fans identify GNR with AFD, Lies, and UYI. The "new" fans have to read articles, listen to bandmembers distorted points of view, and think this newer GNR is somehow similar to past GNR. When a "new" fan hears old GNR, they dont have memories come back to them the way it is when we listen to the old stuff. you're absolutely right, most old fans do not follow new GNR. The age range of old fans is 30-45. Most people that age dont have the time, or the dedication, to keep following Axl. Only the extreme hardcore stay interested. The new fans haven't waited for shit. Lets say the 'new' fans got into them in 99/2000. They've had 5 killer albums to listen to for the first time while they wait for CD. So any material that Axl plays to the new fans is interchangeable. Yes, most old fans who go to the next tour will want to hear strictly the old material, while most new fans wil want a mixture of both. But having said that, I am in the minority on this issue. I am mostly interested in hearing new material. Sure, the old stuff is excellent, and brings back great memories of the past. But I have been listening to those albums since 1987. I have also heard countless bootlegs, and seen GNR live back on the first leg of the UYI tour. That was the prime for that material to be performed. Lets say Axl does a surprise performance hear in Modesto, CA tonight and I go to the show. I am much more interested in hearing CD, The Blues, and the unveiling of Catcher in the Rye, This I Love, and Prostitute than I am in hearing Jungle or Paradise City. But thats just me. I can certainly relate to those who only want to hear old stuff. It symbolizes a special time in their lives. But GNR has basically been stuck in a timewarp, and that contributes to people wanting to relive the past glory. Personally, I'm looking forward to a forward movement of progress.

I agree with just about all you said being there in the glory days, hearing those albums when they ruled the planet.. How some younger fans will never understand the feeling and have to try and live it now.. I would be happy with a 20 songs setlist with 5-6 new the rest classics. I think album sales, and how the singles chart with how much more the newer music is played live..

I know I am big into the gnr name..I am stating this strictly because it is a new band with a name that people hold sacred.. I think it would had been easier to had started everything new including the name so there wouldn't be expectations to hear the old music.. It's like going to see vr and demanding gnr or stp tunes... With a new name it would have been simple to see it wasn't gnr and it was a new band so don't expect to hear the classic, just be happy if he threw you some.. I also think people would focus on the material more then the past with a new group and name,...  it is what it is though

I almost can't talk myself into believing axl will ever release CD or do an elaborate tour with no major fuck ups really hurting his mates who were very pacient.

Also I see many people always posting axl quotes, I say fuck the quotes these days.. It's a nice reference but I think plans have changed so many times that nothing of that is relevant anymore.. We don't even know axl's state of mind these days and what his priorities are.. he's a rich dude with a good life getting a record out is not a life thing anymore.. Great material seems to happen when bands are hungry to make it.. Just like a boxer they always seem better on the way up, not when they get to the top of the mountain.. They kind of forget what got them there

[WAR41]

nah man you can't just say fuck what Axl has said recently.  Of course plans have certainly changed, but its obvious that he is the only one whose word will mean anything when it comes to touring and the release of Chinese Democracy.  When he (rarely) speaks it is the only time I actually listen.  Its the rest of the band I have said 'fuck what they say' to. 

I agree with your analogy though about being on top.  There is not that threat of survival driving him.  I am sure he has a ton of pressure on him to deliver, but it is not going to mean he won't be eating or staying under a roof for a while if he does not deliver.  GNR have already been at the top of the world.  To me its like Michael Jordan's comeback with the Wizards.  People will take notice, but in the end they will remember and judge you on what you used to be.  There is nothing that can be done to change that perception that people already have. 

[mikegiuliana]

nah man you can't just say fuck what Axl has said recently.  Of course plans have certainly changed, but its obvious that he is the only one whose word will mean anything when it comes to touring and the release of Chinese Democracy.  When he (rarely) speaks it is the only time I actually listen.  Its the rest of the band I have said 'fuck what they say' to.

I disagree but that's ok it's our views on it././ I feel axl had many different intentions and I'm sure his word was gold at the time because he had a plan.. I just don't think what he said is relevant to these times..  He has said so many things about songs and cd coming out next summer or wrapping it up.. What he said in 2001 at rio 3 to me is totally irrelevant now.. Far to much time has passed and plans changed for him to stil be on the same path.. There's no way he would have done vegas rio and the three week NA tour in 2002-vmas to be gone for many years after.. Could be lack of confidence, could be cold feet, or it could be he is no longer driven, or finally he will never be happy and that will cause the band to unravel

[younggunner]

sorry i was away for the weekend...

Your average rock fan who maybe listens to Q104.3 (local classic rock station i nyc) doesn't know a damn thing about Cd..

again Mike, your not understanding what Im saying. I didnt say the average rock fan knows about CD. I said they KNOW that the Slash n company are not in GNR and that Axl has been working on a new, long delayed album with a new cast of chararcters for quite some time now. Say what you want, but the average Rock fan KNOWS THAT.

Keep believing everyone is waiting for cd and the fans going to see the shows called gnr are heading to the arenas to hear the latest music.. That old music sparked world domination, the new music is non existent yet and really not anticipated by anyone.. Older people aren't still sitting around reading metal edge hit parader and circus like they did when gnr was around.. maybe the kiddies are... I honestly doubt this group will ever tour and with axl's track record even if it happens it's bound to be short lived.. The man couldn't complete a 3 week tour in his round 1 comeback..

maybe you se this different then me.. I know when someone tells me hey I have an extra ticket to see stones, u-2, metallica, aeromsith or maiden I just expect to hear the music I love and see the artists who made the music too

Never said every1 is waiting for CD like we are. But your not making sense. There will of course be people going to gnr concerts soley for the old material. But those peopel wont fill up the arenas.

Lets look at the facts.2002 tour
for the most part they avergaed half the arena. So what does that tell you about the other half that didnt show? It tell sme 2 things. 1) the old gnr fans werent buying what Axl is doing with this new band so they didnt show. And it tells me the lack of new material didnt draw any new fans.

So Mike lets figure this out. The old time gnr fan will not just come to the show and see gnr for the sake of seeing. They clearly made that statement in 2002. Please stop discrediting the gnr fan and the rock fan for that matter.

And another thing your not understanding is the other bands stuff. GNr is not like th eother bands!Its a different scenario. A unique scenario. Its a new band with new material just with an old name. ANd people KNOW AND UNDERSTAND THAT. SO they will make their choices from there. U2 is basically the only band you mentioned that peopel go and see their new material for. Thats all they basically play on their tours is new stuff with the hits sprinckeled in. Its not complicated. The other bands are has beens and are based on their old material. Unless CD is a bomb GNr will not fall under that category. Get it through your head.

if it's good I will say so but to me personally I won't consider it new guns n roses material.. Just axl rose material...

ok and? ?Whether its called gnr or Malibu Mafia who the fuck cares. Its music. If it hits your emotions then its doing the job. Music is not sports. Actaully its the exact opposite. In sports the majority of peopel root for the team name no matter what players play under that name. In music its the actuall music and personalities in the band that draw you in. Not a name. If GNR does that then there job is done.

If you are going to keep the name guns n roses then you should act like gnr

First off GNr dont act. They are what they are. And GNr today has the same spirit and attitrude of the past. Axl doesnt care about what you or any1 else says or thinks and they are making the music they wanna make. Now they have to put it out......

As long as it's billed as gnr and axl fronts the band I kind of expect to hear the classics.

Why? What if the new stuff is just as good as the old stuff?


GNr is not going to center their stuff around the old material whether you liek that thought or not. The new material will either draw in more of the old gnr fans or push them away. The new music will either get new fans or not get any new fans. The marketing of the band will be based on songs off CD not AFD. Of course they will sprinckel in a few oldies. But the focus will be on the new material. SO if you dont like it dont go.

[WAR41]

younggunner, if they aren't going to focus on the old material then why take the GNR name?  It is a vicious cycle.  To me, the reason he took the name is because he wanted to be able to play the old material with no qualms.  You can quote him all you want on how he did not leave it to die like the old members did, blah blah blah...  No way would Axl ever come out and say "and I wanted to justify playing the old songs at our shows to try and attract more people to shows and to buy our new album".  I think its ridiculous to ignore that fact. 

As for the 2002 tour, there were a lot of problems with that.  I personally believed there was a pretty big lack of promotion.  I also think that ticket prices were too high.  I had some great seats for the DC and SC show, but I think I still paid a bit much for a band that hasn't been touring or released an album since 1993. 

Also your theory about the 'older fans' not filling the seats while feasible, is not really a good possibility.  People did not come to shows for the reasons I mentioned above.  For anyone who did watch the VMA's (probably the only exposure the majority of people had to the 'new' band) they probably felt the band was a joke and that Axl sounded poorly, which he pretty much did.  And if you do not believe that ask your "average rnr fan" as you put it who saw the VMAs.  Nobody wanted to see Axl the washup and his freakshow play any songs at all. 

[younggunner]

if they aren't going to focus on the old material then why take the GNR name?  It is a vicious cycle.  To me, the reason he took the name is because he wanted to be able to play the old material with no qualms.  You can quote him all you want on how he did not leave it to die like the old members did, blah blah blah...  No way would Axl ever come out and say "and I wanted to justify playing the old songs at our shows to try and attract more people to shows and to buy our new album".  I think its ridiculous to ignore that fact. 

I never said they are going to ignore the old material. But Mike is implying that GNr will be like these other bands and just play a 2002 setlist when the new album drops. And that wont be the case. Axl has kept th ename because in his mind GNr should still be out there. Thats a for another thread. I dont think Axl has any intention in denying you the old hits. But at the same time it wont be the main focus of the band. Nor should it be.

No way would Axl ever come out and say "and I wanted to justify playing the old songs at our shows to try and attract more people to shows and to buy our new album

Do you honestly think Axls main reason for keeping the GNr name is for sales and fans reasons? If they went under a different name it would have gotten the same reaction as it did on the 2002 tour. Again another thread for that topic...

As for the 2002 tour, there were a lot of problems with that.  I personally believed there was a pretty big lack of promotion.  I also think that ticket prices were too high.  I had some great seats for the DC and SC show, but I think I still paid a bit much for a band that hasn't been touring or released an album since 1993. 

And I said that the lack of new material and promotion was a reason for the half empty arena. It was a  huge reason.
So when the album hits stores and the promotion is out there peopel will see and hear the new band and material. they will then make their choice of whether this new material and new band works for them. Its not that complicated.

Also your theory about the 'older fans' not filling the seats while feasible, is not really a good possibility.  People did not come to shows for the reasons I mentioned above.  For anyone who did watch the VMA's (probably the only exposure the majority of people had to the 'new' band) they probably felt the band was a joke and that Axl sounded poorly, which he pretty much did.  And if you do not believe that ask your "average rnr fan" as you put it who saw the VMAs.  Nobody wanted to see Axl the washup and his freakshow play any songs at all. 

Exactely! So liek the 2002 tour and in the future GNr will have to ear back the respect of the old fans and attract new fans in order to sell out arenas. THE NAME ALONE WONT GET IT DONE.
new music,new music,new music

[ppbebe]

There're always tons of tribute bands and old videos for you.

nah man you can't just say fuck what Axl has said recently.  Of course plans have certainly changed, but its obvious that he is the only one whose word will mean anything when it comes to touring and the release of Chinese Democracy.  When he (rarely) speaks it is the only time I actually listen.  Its the rest of the band I have said 'fuck what they say' to.

I disagree but that's ok it's our views on it././ I feel axl had many different intentions and I'm sure his word was gold at the time because he had a plan.. I just don't think what he said is relevant to these times..  He has said so many things about songs and cd coming out next summer or wrapping it up.. What he said in 2001 at rio 3 to me is totally irrelevant now.. Far to much time has passed and plans changed for him to stil be on the same path.. There's no way he would have done vegas rio and the three week NA tour in 2002-vmas to be gone for many years after.. Could be lack of confidence, could be cold feet, or it could be he is no longer driven, or finally he will never be happy and that will cause the band to unravel

Part and parcel of the project, which is the motives and the goals, is the last things to change in substance.
The schedule, the methods or the means, any side issues can be changed about, sometimes in order to keep the project true to the essentials.

[mikegiuliana]

There're always tons of tribute bands and old videos for you.

nah man you can't just say fuck what Axl has said recently.? Of course plans have certainly changed, but its obvious that he is the only one whose word will mean anything when it comes to touring and the release of Chinese Democracy.? When he (rarely) speaks it is the only time I actually listen.? Its the rest of the band I have said 'fuck what they say' to.

I disagree but that's ok it's our views on it././ I feel axl had many different intentions and I'm sure his word was gold at the time because he had a plan.. I just don't think what he said is relevant to these times..? He has said so many things about songs and cd coming out next summer or wrapping it up.. What he said in 2001 at rio 3 to me is totally irrelevant now.. Far to much time has passed and plans changed for him to stil be on the same path.. There's no way he would have done vegas rio and the three week NA tour in 2002-vmas to be gone for many years after.. Could be lack of confidence, could be cold feet, or it could be he is no longer driven, or finally he will never be happy and that will cause the band to unravel

Part and parcel of the project, which is the motives and the goals, is the last things to change in substance.
The schedule, the methods or the means, any side issues can be changed about, sometimes in order to keep the project true to the essentials.

what are you talking about tribute bands..  Any band that keeps a name with a huge audience is going to be expected to play the material that made them big..  Call yourself something else if you want all your new material to be focused on..

[mikegiuliana]

again Mike, your not understanding what Im saying. I didnt say the average rock fan knows about CD. I said they KNOW that the Slash n company are not in GNR and that Axl has been working on a new, long delayed album with a new cast of chararcters for quite some time now. Say what you want, but the average Rock fan KNOWS THAT.

you really give humans to much credit. because vr exists and people saw the vmas they still have no fucking clue who's in the band or that slash is out.. How many people asked me why was slash wearing a bucket on his head.. If an older fan that isn't following the drama sees GNR to play msg they are going to just assume the gnr they know is the gnr that will be there..

None of this shit really matters anyway, there will most likely be no music or tours just like the past few years.. Only if axl was as involved with the music as the fans on htgth were

Never said every1 is waiting for CD like we are. But your not making sense. There will of course be people going to gnr concerts soley for the old material. But those peopel wont fill up the arenas.

really?? How does every other big time rock band who barely sells or make new music do it then? Iron maiden could sell out any arena and never play a song from the past decade.. Metallica could tour in the same venues two nights in a row with nothing new and they will sell out the shows...  people didn't show up to all the axl rose shows because the promo sucked ass... I saw so many older people at msg, old Bj's from back in the day shoe horned into their licra, leather vinyl pants.. Fat beer bellied slobs in their gnr t shirts...
With proper promo they will do good either way with new material or the setlist of old..

[ppbebe]

what are you talking about tribute bands..  Any band that keeps a name with a huge audience is going to be expected to play the material that made them big..  Call yourself something else if you want all your new material to be focused on..

How much huge audience with the name are still there again? Isn't it you who keeps estimating it low.

If Chinese Democracy makes them big, what's the problem there?

[The New Fiona Apple]

Well as long as they don't play Think About You, I'll be happy!

[Eva GnRAxlRosette]

if we're thinking and debating about it this much - then its a given that Axl and the whole Guns camp is aware of this "issue"....

if the CD has 18 songs and off it they progressively release 5 - 6 singles and the tour set is to consist of 18 songs...? perhaps the proportion will be something like this:

WTTJ
SCOM
PC
NR
Patience
KOHD or LALD ? ? ? (alternating in setlist)
YCBM OR Rocket Queen (alternating in setlist)
Brownstone OR Nightrain (alternating in setlist)
Think About You OR ?It's So Easy ?(alternating in setlist)
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? = 7 old/classic songs in the setlist

Chinese Democracy
Madagascar
The Blues
Oh My God
IRS
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? = 5 songs of the new gnr era we already know
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
sub-total? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?=12

? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?+ 6 new era gnr songs

(for example only)
Catcher in the Rye ? - ?Much anticipated
This I Love ? ? - ? ? ?Much anticipated
Prostitute/ TWAT (the Paul Buckmaster tracks)
Seven/Leave Me Alone/General/Thyme (the beltrami tracks)
Ides of March
Oklahoma


? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? = 18 total songs for the setlist

How does that sound to you all?


(note if the set list were longer than 18 I'd say more new era GN'R songs ie: Silkworms, Rhyiad - not more old )

[mikegiuliana]

what are you talking about tribute bands..? Any band that keeps a name with a huge audience is going to be expected to play the material that made them big..? Call yourself something else if you want all your new material to be focused on..

How much huge audience with the name are still there again? Isn't it you who keeps estimating it low.

If Chinese Democracy makes them big, what's the problem there?

I don't know when I said their attendance for a well promoted tour would be... I always said I think the album sales might be lower then the multi million people are predicting, but by no means do I think a band called guns n roses would have a poor showing at 15-20K seater arenas... I might have said it doesn't matter who is in the band or how great the material is to get good showings at concerts.. All you need is the name gnr on the ticket and at least axl rose singing and the fans will come..

I do think if the ticket said axl rose instead of gnr or the same for a new album the gnr one would sell so much more.. I have always viewed gnr at their best kind of like seinfeld... The show is amazing because of each star's contributions, them as a team is amazing.. They still have talent on their individual sitcoms/side projects but nothing like they had as one..  GNR is now iconic, it is also trendy.. Fucking K mart is selling gnr t shirts. I see them used for rockabilia, k mart adds in maxim magazine.. So to me gnr is bigger then the band itself and as long as axl uses that name it will be seen as a pleasure to say HEY I SAW GNR

[mikegiuliana]

Catcher in the Rye   -  Much anticipated
This I Love     -      Much anticipated

Anticipated by the band or the forum fans?? Just curious...

I said it before 6 new songs the rest classics, if the album does amazing and the single/videos top the charts mix it up from show to show

[ppbebe]

Mike, do you mean YOUR average RN'R fans who haven't even heard of the CD business by the alleged huge older attendance the name gnr would draw?

I just expect to hear the music I love and see the artists who made the music too..

That's exactlly what the audience, old or new will feel after CD hits the scene. They'll be eager to here the music they love and see the artists who made the music too.

[Eva GnRAxlRosette]

Catcher in the Rye? ?-? Much anticipated
This I Love? ? ?-? ? ? Much anticipated

Anticipated by the band or the forum fans?? Just curious...

Much anticipated by us fans  

[WAR41]

I am curious about the discussion that dave and I had earlier... how many songs do people realistically expect to be played on a new tour assuming it happens?  I am sticking with my guess of 18 songs a night.  I know Dave mentioned 20-25.  There may be a special show or two where that happens, but I think that estimate for an average night is too high.

[Eva GnRAxlRosette]

I am curious about the discussion that dave and I had earlier... how many songs do people realistically expect to be played on a new tour assuming it happens?  I am sticking with my guess of 18 songs a night.   I know Dave mentioned 20-25.? There may be a special show or two where that happens, but I think that estimate for an average night is too high.

if ...the tour set is to consist of 18 songs...  perhaps the proportion will be something like this:
                     
                                        7 old/classic songs in the setlist

                                        5 songs of the new gnr era we already know
                                               
                                         6 new era gnr songs

                                        = 18 total songs for the setlist

How does that sound to you all?

I think 18 is a reasonable expectation 

[Eazy E]

I'll tell you what I'd like...

I'd like there to be no guarantee that I'm going to hear Welcome to the Jungle
I'd like there to be no guarantee that I'm going to hear Sweet Child O' Mine
I'd like there to be no guarantee that I'm going to hear X number of songs from (insert album name)
I'd like there to be no guarantee that the show closes with Paradise City

If this band is going to be "Guns N' Roses", then what I think should happen is they should learn as many of the old songs as possible & of course all of their new material.  Then draw up a different setlist for every fucking show!  You guys talk about how talented they are, yet you're all coming up with a "routine" and "hoops" for the band to jump through... "How many times would you like to see Axl do his snake dance?", "Do you think Mr. Brownstone should be followed by a rant?"

Ok, they will need to promote their new material so the setlist may be a little heavy towards new songs, but I don't want to know exactly which new songs will be played... I also don't want to know exactly which old songs they are going to play.  Some of the suggestions I've heard in this thread sound like the most boring concerts ever ("Ok ok, they play all of CD, open with Jungle, close with PC and sprinkle in SCOM and November Rain").

If I'm at a concert and I honestly don't know what the next song is going to be, THAT'S exciting... and if my favourite GN'R song doesn't make the setlist?  All the more reason to hit up the next concert in the next city.

[Eva GnRAxlRosette]

If I'm at a concert and I honestly don't know what the next song is going to be, THAT'S exciting... and if my favourite GN'R song doesn't make the setlist?? All the more reason to hit up the next concert in the next city.

That sounds good to me. 

I like the idea of mixing it up, definitely - I'd like to attend several shows when they tour and you have an excellent point.