Robin's Guitar Playing

[badapple81]

Ok. Not to start another Robin vs. Slash vs. Buckethead debate, but i'd like people to listen to this clip of Robin's RIR solo and honestly tell if u think he's a good guitarist or not:

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=I0P4WTKR

P.S: Most musicians have an idea of the key and scale they're playing in but well...

Look, if you start a debate/discussion about Robin's guitar playing, it's fair that you present both sides of the arguement. And you have clearly started the thread off with a negative spin to set people off. So there can be no complaints. We can't erase your example of Robin, so all we can do is point out the fact that every musician has a fuck up every so often, and yes, that includes Slash, Axl, Brain etc etc.. We could upload hundreds of awesome solos he has done in return to your one example. We know he played it off key, which yes is a major screw up, but wait until CD comes out to judge, and until then, get over this one example.

Edit: It's the end of a long day at work, perhaps I am being a tad cranky 

[Genesis]

Look, if you start a debate/discussion about Robin's guitar playing, it's fair that you present both sides of the arguement. And you have clearly started the thread off with a negative spin to set people off. So there can be no complaints. We can't erase your example of Robin, so all we can do is point out the fact that every musician has a fuck up every so often, and yes, that includes Slash, Axl, Brain etc etc.. We could upload hundreds of awesome solos he has done in return to your one example. We know he played it off key, which yes is a major screw up, but wait until CD comes out to judge, and until then, get over this one example.

Edit: It's the end of a long day at work, perhaps I am being a tad cranky 

Alright, my bad. It's fixed now.   

[Voodoochild]

First, you said he played off the key; I said Slash did that too.

Ah, as usual ur missing the point. There's a difference between playing an entire fucking solo off key and missing a few notes. Being a guitarist u should know that. Guess u don't.

As usual, you're ignoring my arguments. Who knows what happened in this solo (maybe he just fucked up, maybe his ear monitor was fucked up)? Shit happens, dude! Who are you to judge a guitarrist only by this? I am a guitarist and I know it wouldn't be fair. Being a guitarist yourself, you should know that.

Please stop acting like a smartass, trying to put down everyone who likes Robin or don't agree with your pointless arguments.

I don't give a rat's ass who likes or dislikes Robin. All we're discussing here is his playing. Why don't u refer back to ur posts to see who turned this into a "Slash does that too" thread.

If you don't care, why the hell did you make this thread?
I didn't turn this into a "Slash does that too", people did that before me. But of course I could bring Slash into this, since it's the main reason for those who complain about Robin. Slash is the parameter for a guitar player in the band for you (as you said before, "I don't think his guitar skills compare to either Buckethead or Slash"). Also, who said Slash only missed a few notes?

I just don't know what's the point in making a thread only to bash someone. And, when people don't like it, you can't understand why.

[ppbebe]

WHAT C0ma said!

="Soloing out of key isn't a style, it's a reason to decide on a career change, because if you haven't picked up on musical theory after 20 years of playing, you're never going to get it.

1)  Soloing out of key can be a style.

2)  Robin definitely understands damn music theory.
Do you seriously think it possible that one minute You know it next minute you don't?

You haven't answered my question about 'encore'.

[Genesis]

As usual, you're ignoring my arguments. Who knows what happened in this solo (maybe he just fucked up, maybe his ear monitor was fucked up)? Shit happens, dude! Who are you to judge a guitarrist only by this? I am a guitarist and I know it wouldn't be fair. Being a guitarist yourself, you should know that.

Ok. Shit happens. Unlike u i'm not offering him the benefit of the doubt. What makes u think he's such a great guitarist? He certainly hasn't impressed live so far.

Slash is the parameter for a guitar player in the band for you (as you said before, "I don't think his guitar skills compare to either Buckethead or Slash").

WTF? Of course Slash is the parameter for this band. The lead replacement for Slash will obviously be compared to him. Who would u like the parameter to be?

You haven't answered my question about 'encore'.

What about it? Eminem used it for one song. You'll say i'm biased but i think it sucks.

[C0ma]

WHAT C0ma said!

="Soloing out of key isn't a style, it's a reason to decide on a career change, because if you haven't picked up on musical theory after 20 years of playing, you're never going to get it.

1)? Soloing out of key can be a style.

2)? Robin definitely understands damn music theory.
Do you seriously think it possible that one minute You know it next minute you don't?

You haven't answered my question about 'encore'.

You are taking the term acidental too far. Yes you can play a set of notes within a solo out of key and and use those to accent a run durring the solo, but to play an entire solo out of the key of the song is not right.

Call me a theory snob, but there is a reason that songs are writen the way they are.

Also are you using a guitar part from a Rap song to prove to GnR fans that Robin deserves the Lead Guitar spot? In that case why don't we just go ahead and hire Rik Rubin to play lead guitar because he had a mean solo durring the Beasties "No Sleep Till Brooklyn".

[madagas]

Coma, There is also a reason that you are sitting here on a fan message board and Robin is actually in a group with a fairly talented lead singer who seems to think he can play. Not to mention that another fairly talented lead singer hired him to be his touring lead guitarist for several world class and critically acclaimed tours. In other words, I'll trust Axl's and Trent's judgements over some dork on a message board. I am not saying that I like how he plays SOME of the old Gnr stuff-cause I don't. But, then again, I don't care if I ever hear ANY of the old Gnr songs played live again-ever. Been there and done that. Finally, I would agree that Robin should stick to mainly rhythm stuff on the old Gnr catalog and let Fortus do the solo's for those-his tone does seem more in line with Slash's-even though Slash butchered anything and everything he ever played with Gnr live-Slash is sloppy defined (I don't mind his sloppiness though because that is the nature of those songs and they were created in that mindset). Ahhhh fuck it....I am only going to judge the album. Fuck the live performances-they are so cookie cutter anyway it doesn't matter.?

[Genesis]

Coma, There is also a reason that you are sitting here on a fan message board and Robin is actually in a group with a fairly talented lead singer who seems to think he can play. Not to mention that another fairly talented lead singer hired him to be his touring lead guitarist for several world class and critically acclaimed tours. In other words, I'll trust Axl's and Trent's judgements over some dork on a message board.

Meaning u have no musical judgement of ur own and u'll take any shit as long as it's been certified by Axl?. Excellent.

I am not saying that I like how he plays SOME of the old Gnr stuff-cause I don't. But, then again, I don't care if I ever hear ANY of the old Gnr songs played live again-ever. Been there and done that.

Well, that's u. Some of us would like to hear the old material live, the songs that got us interested in GN'R, in the first place.

Finally, I would agree that Robin should stick to mainly rhythm stuff on the old Gnr catalog and let Fortus do the solo's...

That's what I've been saying.

[ppbebe]

Nope coma. read the thread. I just corrected your 2 points.1) the style does exist. 2) robin does play in key as well.

Slash is the parameter for a guitar player in the band for you (as you said before, "I don't think his guitar skills compare to either Buckethead or Slash").

WTF? Of course Slash is the parameter for this band. The lead replacement for Slash will obviously be compared to him. Who would u like the parameter to be?

If you ask me, none.  I personally don't need any parameter for a player in a band.
Basically I hear the music, see the band as a whole. As for a part, how the part, skilful or not, works in a song/ with the other parts is the decisive factor.  In this sense, Your parameter ie Slash's guitar would be too rough and too normal to meet what GN'R requires today.

You haven't answered my question about 'encore'.

What about it? Eminem used it for one song. You'll say i'm biased but i think it sucks.

So you don't like it i.e. dissonance in general. since Obviously I'm not talking about the song itself.
An answer disappointingly predictable. I wouldn't call you biased for that. I'd call you conservative/antiquated.

[Genesis]

You haven't answered my question about 'encore'.

What about it? Eminem used it for one song. You'll say i'm biased but i think it sucks.

So you don't like it i.e. dissonance in general. since Obviously I'm not talking about the song itself.
An answer disappointingly predictable. I wouldn't call you biased for that. I'd call you conservative/antiquated.

I was talking about the damn song. I don't listen to rap. You want to hear dissonance in action? Listen to the solo in Poison's 'Come Hell Or High Water'.

[Voodoochild]

As usual, you're ignoring my arguments. Who knows what happened in this solo (maybe he just fucked up, maybe his ear monitor was fucked up)? Shit happens, dude! Who are you to judge a guitarrist only by this? I am a guitarist and I know it wouldn't be fair. Being a guitarist yourself, you should know that.

Ok. Shit happens. Unlike u i'm not offering him the benefit of the doubt. What makes u think he's such a great guitarist? He certainly hasn't impressed live so far.

Well, he impressed me live with Rhyiad, The Blues, KOHD, SCOM, Sossego, his duet with Buckethead on RIR3, his solos before SCOM and PC in 2002 (not only the NA tour), his rhythm guitar work in Madagascar, hus duet with Bucket in PC ending, his guitar work in YCBM, RQ and, of course, Patience. His studio work also impressed me: Love Siege, Fight Train, SCOM and IRS. I don't like NIN that much, but I also saw his work with Trent in DVD and I think it was pretty good.

Slash is the parameter for a guitar player in the band for you (as you said before, "I don't think his guitar skills compare to either Buckethead or Slash").

WTF? Of course Slash is the parameter for this band. The lead replacement for Slash will obviously be compared to him. Who would u like the parameter to be?

I don't think Axl wanted to put someone who plays like Slash. He only wanted guitar players with particular sounds (Robin, Bucket and Richard have an unique sound that anyone can recognize). What I'm saying is Axl wanted guitar players to make a new sound for the new album. They can also play the old songs, but this is not why this new line up was build for, IMO. You shouldn't expect to only see this new band covering the old gnr - at least once the album is released.

[Genesis]

Well, he impressed me live with Rhyiad, The Blues, KOHD, SCOM, Sossego, his duet with Buckethead on RIR3, his solos before SCOM and PC in 2002 (not only the NA tour), his rhythm guitar work in Madagascar, hus duet with Bucket in PC ending, his guitar work in YCBM, RQ and, of course, Patience. His studio work also impressed me: Love Siege, Fight Train, SCOM and IRS. I don't like NIN that much, but I also saw his work with Trent in DVD and I think it was pretty good.

Well, each to his own.  Atleast we understand each other on that one.

I don't think Axl wanted to put someone who plays like Slash. He only wanted guitar players with particular sounds (Robin, Bucket and Richard have an unique sound that anyone can recognize). What I'm saying is Axl wanted guitar players to make a new sound for the new album. They can also play the old songs, but this is not why this new line up was build for, IMO. You shouldn't expect to only see this new band covering the old gnr - at least once the album is released.

The album is the only thing that'll settle this issue, so we'll just have to wait and see.

[madagas]

Genesis, I like Axl's choice of guitarists throughout his career and will give him the benefit of the doubt. Thinking for myself is certainly not a problem as I am fairly opinionated-just take a look at my prior posts. Message board dork comment still stands...as evidenced by the fact that you have actually listened to any ?POISON song and even took the time to mention it. Maybe Axl should get CC??

[W. Botaxl Rose]

Also are you using a guitar part from a Rap song to prove to GnR fans that Robin deserves the Lead Guitar spot? In that case why don't we just go ahead and hire Rik Rubin to play lead guitar because he had a mean solo durring the Beasties "No Sleep Till Brooklyn".

Sorry to stray off topic, but I don't think Rubin played that solo. Didn't he bring in the guitarist from Slayer or someone like that for the solo?


Now, back to the topic. fiNck b  lOw s.

[ppbebe]

Noooooo way, madagas!  :rant:To be honest I don't know wtf CC is but I can guess.

I was talking about the damn song. I don't listen to rap. You want to hear dissonance in action?

Oh yeah?

My Original Question.

what do you think of the full use of dissonance on Eminems 'encore'?

Your answer

Eminem used it for one song. You'll say i'm biased but i think it sucks

.
What was this 'IT' then?

Listen to the solo in Poison's 'Come Hell Or High Water'.

Sorry I refuse.  Anyway do you like dissonance or not?

[madagas]

I was being a smartass...I would shoot somebody if CC Deville was in Gnr.

[Genesis]

Genesis, I like Axl's choice of guitarists throughout his career and will give him the benefit of the doubt. Thinking for myself is certainly not a problem as I am fairly opinionated-just take a look at my prior posts.

I don't need to see ur prior posts, for u to prove to urself that u have a working brain. Lacking confidence? 

Message board dork comment still stands...as evidenced by the fact that you have actually listened to any POISON song and even took the time to mention it. Maybe Axl should get CC??

You can comment all u want, i don't give a fuck. As for Poison, that's what Axl, Robin and co. have come down to.

My Original Question.

what do you think of the full use of dissonance on Eminems 'encore'?

Your answer

Eminem used it for one song. You'll say i'm biased but i think it sucks

.
What was this 'IT' then?.... Anyway do you like dissonance or not?

Oh my, English professor, such intricate word play! You caught me out there! Do u see a full stop between the two sentences? Or did u mistake it for a comma?
I'll clarify: I like dissonance when it is used properly, as in: playing an out of  key note(s) because it sounds good with a particular chord in the key. Do u know what u call someone who plays all his notes out of key? Musically impaired.

[ppbebe]

My Original Question.

what do you think of the full use of dissonance on Eminems 'encore'?

Your answer

Eminem used it for one song. You'll say i'm biased but i think it sucks

.
What was this 'IT' then?.... Anyway do you like dissonance or not?

Oh my, English professor, such intricate word play! You caught me out there! Do u see a full stop between the two sentences? Or did u mistake it for a comma?

word play? Bull shit. It's not about your English but about your contradiction. 

I'll clarify: I like dissonance when it is used properly, as in: playing an out of  key note(s) because it sounds good with a particular chord in the key. Do u know what u call someone who plays all his notes out of key? Musically impaired.

Or maybe his guitar is accidentally tuned wrongly.
That's why I took 'encore' for example, in which the tune of the keyboard is all the way off key.  And it works in my opinion. Or Stravinsky if you prefer.
Are they Musically impaired? And how come a Musically impaired person play other songs in key? As I said earlier, it cannot be like one minute you don't know musical theory the next minute you do.

Who decides what's proper? There's no universal rule. I might have missed a class or two but I never heard of a theory on the proper usage of discord.

It's a matter of taste after all.

[Genesis]

Or maybe his guitar is accidentally tuned wrongly.

Yeah, more excuses for his playing: Dissonance, Out of tune Guitars, what next?
By the by before a concert, band members usually check to see if they are in tune. 

It's a matter of taste after all.

Yes it is. 

[Eva GnRAxlRosette]

WHAT C0ma said!

="Soloing out of key isn't a style, it's a reason to decide on a career change, because if you haven't picked up on musical theory after 20 years of playing, you're never going to get it.

1)? Soloing out of key can be a style.

2) ?Robin definitely understands damn music theory.
Do you seriously think it possible that one minute You know it next minute you don't?

You haven't answered my question about 'encore'.

ha! ?ppbebe, you rule! ?The poster is apparently only interested in those points which support his POV....
one which the poster doesn't even present as a POV but rather presents as though it is a fact that we must all recognize.

Yes guitar players and all musicians do make errors playing live. ?My acknowledging that doesn't definitively translate to my believing that a specific instance of Robin playing an entire solo 'off key' was a display of gross ineptitude.

 

Will you argue that this type/method does not exist? ?I didn't make it up. ?I don't play guitar... but I don't have to be able to play guitar to find that it's a method used by guitarists.

I'm a guitarist and i know what dissonant playing is. That's not the point here. First, u argue that it's just Robin fucking up live and Slash does the same... Then after C0ma's post u pull out your dissonant theory from some christian guitar site and argue that Robin MUST be using this since he's playing out of key. Real nice.

U don't have to be a guitarist to hear how awful playing out of key sounds. Just listen to Robin playing...

Why is it that only your points matter? ?Why does it matter that I shared an entry from a christian guitar site? ?Is a guitar player at a christian guitar site necessarily less knowledgeable than you? ?If you believe so then you betray such claim by stating that you too are aware of dissonant method. ?Are you saying that rock guitarists don't employ this method in their work or in their training? ?Is it exclusive to christian guitar playing? ?Is Slayer a christian guitar band? ?lol! ?(How about ppbebe's example of Eminem?) ?You say you are aware of the method. ?I suggested that Robin may employ this method. ?What's to argue? ?That you know he doesn't? ?Like I said there is no way for you to know the hows and whys of Robin's guitar playing. ?Like it or not... ?that's one thing - but your conclusion that Robin doesn't know what he's doing... that he doesn't understand music theory does not make sense. ?Answer ppbebe's question above (highlighted in bold text).

As for your assertion that I argued of the sample that you posted ?that ?"it's just Robin fucking up live and Slash does the same." you are incorrect. ?I have made no such assertion. ?My comments regarding live performances addressed those who were discussing various live fuck ups of Robin, Slash, and other guitarists. ?

My specific point is that while Robin, as much as any other player, may make technical errors in a live performance, it is to be recognized that Robin may view the live situation as an opportunity to offer alternative renditions of a work... one which he may have developed through employing alternative methods such as dissonant theory. ?A live situation is condusive to a musician's creative impulses. ?I'm not suggesting that Robin improvised his rendition on the spot, but that he perhaps he decided on the spot to render this alternative interpretation that he may have developed through use of dissonant theory. ?I specifically argue that any assumption that Robin simply doesn't know what he's doing... doesn't know music theory... and doesn't know what key he's playing in, is questionable and extremely doubtful at best.

I can not rationalize that a musician would go 'tone deaf' all of a sudden. ?And while an off key note here or there would reasonably lead one to the conclusion that an error was made - playing an entire piece off key in error is less likely a reasonable assumption.

As to personal taste, and whether you like Robin's guitar playing - you are entitled to your opinion - of course! ?It is only your assertion that Robin doesn't know what he's doing to which i take exception.