Socialism

[Where is Hassan Nasrallah ?]

off course socialism does not work.
but we are living in a dream where we think that capitalism works and makes us happy because puff daddy has a golden car.
i guess you guys don't watch the news.

you rather have everybody eating normally, or some having all the cake they want, and the others dying (cause that's what's going on)

and sterling, here we go with the "you dont want someone lazy get ressource while you are working and all ... " off course .... natural ...but you are forgetting that, next to the lazy person, there is the person who just fails, and can't do good, not because he's lazy, but because he's weak ....

are we all gonna think like nietzsche ? only the strong survive ?

nesquick said it, "  it is against the human beeing values ", and that is exactly why we need socialism, because it's only way to force people to be nice (organization driven from free-market , or a strong governement, same thing ...)

but we will come to that, we've been experiencing free-market since the begining of time, money is what made what the world is today, and it's about to explodes -socially-:)

sad thing, is that kids on this forum, can think like that...come on, you'll have time when you're old and grumpy to right wing capitalist, you're young, be a rebel ahah .

yeah well, i'm off making video games

[SLCPUNK]

An intelligent mixture of the two may be a success. As a society, I don't see capitalism as advancement for mankind.

[Surfrider]

Americans are going TO CANADA to get medicine that is cheaper then here.

Capitalism and greed are sending people away to spend their money.

This is because our patents aren't respected in other places.  Canadians simply do not have to pay for the research and development costs.  Basically, we are paying the R&D costs for the rest of the world.

[SLCPUNK]

Americans are going TO CANADA to get medicine that is cheaper then here.

Capitalism and greed are sending people away to spend their money.

This is because our patents aren't respected in other places.  Canadians simply do not have to pay for the research and development costs.  Basically, we are paying the R&D costs for the rest of the world.

Naw....it couldn't be because the pharmaceutical companies in this country are grossly over pricing our meds could it?

[POPmetal]

there is the person who just fails, and can't do good, not because he's lazy, but because he's weak ....

That's questionable. Either way, even the poor (or "weak" if you like, though I don't think the two are interchangeable) in capitalist societies are better off than everyone in socialist ones.

yeah well, i'm off making video games

You have that "evil" capitalism to thank for that. Without "greedy" corporations there wouldn't be any video games. And that's just one thing you wouldn't have. You wouldn't have CDs or iPods. You wouldn't have bands touring (unless they were state sponsored propaganda bands).Rebellious bands like Guns N' Roses would most certainly be banned. You might have a TV, but it would probably still be black and white and the only thing you'd be able to watch on it is the state sponsored propaganda channel. Life would be pretty damn boring, but you know what? That will be the least of your troubles. Wait until the government starts suspecting you of being a "capitalist," regardless of whether you really are or not, and the police come and take you away in the middle of the night to some barn and torture you and bludgeon you. Wait until you make an offhand joke criticizing the state, and you suddenly disappear never to be heard from again. But no, there's nothing wrong with giving the state so much power. After all, it's in the name of equality and justice. Everyone will have equal(ly bad) health care and education (which they won't be able to do anything with).

[POPmetal]

sad thing, is that kids on this forum, can think like that...come on, you'll have time when you're old and grumpy to right wing capitalist, you're young, be a rebel ahah .

Rebelling is not cool if you're rebelling against sanity in favor of lunacy.

A Chinese kid rebelling against that police state is cool.

A rich white American or European kid wearing a Che Guevera or CCCR (Soviet Union) shirt is about as pathetic loser as it gets.

[Will]

that is exactly why we need socialism, because it's only way to force people to be nice

Apparently it's not working on you - even though France is a "socialist" country (right now it's going towards capitalism but whatever). I don't know if your posts are really what you think and what you are in real life, but I don't see any kindness or compassion in them.

Calling people who don't succeed weak, ugly or stupid is not really the values we grew up with here but I see that in almost each of your post. Being idealistic is good, but you should apply some of your theories to yourself!

As SLC said, a good (intelligent) mix of socialism and capitalism should work and should advance mankind. I don't believe in an all socialist society (where usually unemployment is very high) or an all capitalist society (where all you think about is money).

[SLCPUNK]

Sarcasm missed....

But you must consider who missed it......

Then there is no suprise.

[Where is Hassan Nasrallah ?]

sad thing, is that kids on this forum, can think like that...come on, you'll have time when you're old and grumpy to right wing capitalist, you're young, be a rebel ahah .

Rebelling is not cool if you're rebelling against sanity in favor of lunacy.

A Chinese kid rebelling against that police state is cool.

A rich white American or European kid wearing a Che Guevera or CCCR (Soviet Union) shirt is about as pathetic loser as it gets.

that was the less serious of my comments ...( even if it has some truth in it ...)

and Will, yes i'm nice, i'm very nice - i mean, really , why do yuo think i'm not nice ? -

when i say weak, i mean the loosers (in the winner-loosers situation of extreme capitalism). and yes we have to help them.
capitalism kinda is a situation where, if you don't fit it, if you don't succeed, then it's your fault. it shouldnt be.
see all the poor countries in the world ?
to clean our conscience we like to think that's its their fault (and some people here really think that).
it's not their fault.

capitalism today has become PREDATOR capitalism. and even very liberal (economix wise) thinkers are saying that now, capitalism is no longer a bout CREATION (of wealth, of jobs, of movement) but it is about PREDATION. and that's where we're going the wrong way.

we are decadent. and we're bringing the *capitalism* with us in our decadence.  people that defend today's rich countries system defends it, as they see it in a dreamy way. while it's no more like that. we're not seeing how perverted it became.

POP
and no socialism is not about living in the farm. i'm pro cities, i love video games and designer clothes for my girlfriend.
it's just that we have to face that OUR application of capitalism inour society today, leaves so many people on the side. world wide, and locally.

socialism must be about people / organization (and i'm sorry, but a governement is the most efficient thing we can get) that will use the wealth and movement created by our production to make sure most people are sufficiently happy.

example: a tax on stocks exchange tradings. simple.

but again, complicated subject.

[nesquick]

By definition, socialism and communism lead to fachism. We had several exemples in History. It doesn't work, simply because it is against the human beeing values.
 A social policy only works when the Economy is in the green. You can spend the money only if you have money. and to create money(to be in the green), people need to be free and create business whenever they want. As a consequence, Free Market is a necessity. The chalenge is how to regulate all that. It's a question of regulation. Liberalism with regulation is a factor of progress.

While I personally believe in minimum regulation, this is a great post nesquick As someone who grew up behind the Iron Curtain, I know from firsthand experience that socialism does not work. It only ruins things for everyone (well, except the oligarchs in the party who live like kings at the expense of everyone else). I am appalled that people would ask the question of this thread

I don't believe in a "minimum" regulation. I believe in regulation. It's like rules. They should be strong. It should be enough powerfull to avoid the jungle laws, to protect people, to finance social programs, but it shouldn't take the Economy in hostage (like the communist political regims) or to take their freedom away. Lots of people are afraid by capitalism, but come on the immense majority of people are MUCH more wealthier now than a century ago. People live better now in western countries. Let the Economy whisper. What is done in europe is pretty good, even if it's still way too centralised, with a loud "bureaucratie". European countries should be more tonic, but what is done is already pretty good though.

[DeN]

so chirac, de villepin and sarkozy are socialists ?

ok, thx for the news. 

anyway, USA is the N?1 of capitalists countries, do you really feel it's still a democracy ?

USA looks more like an empire right now...but a very fragile one.
and it's dangerous for the entire world.
USA government even don't separate religion and politics, like in the countries they want to fight with.

[nesquick]

Nobody in France is socialist or communist in the sense of staline or lenine (exept LO or LCR- but seriously who vote for them?) . the PS is nowhere near to be socialist in the sense of this topic. They are as socialists as Tonny Blair

[Will]

Current political parties in France aren't "socialist", but France is indeed a socialist country, even though it's going towards capitalism right now. France has a socialist history since Jean Jaur?s and L?on Blum.

And yes, America is still a democracy. Of course it is, don't believe everything Karl Zero says (French TV version of Bill O'Reilly, but on the liberal side and openly dislikes America). I'm not saying America is an example to follow, but I certainly don't think France is either (10 million unemployed people ain't exactly a great success in my book) - except for the wine and a few other things!

[Where is Hassan Nasrallah ?]

Current political parties in France aren't "socialist", but France is indeed a socialist country, even though it's going towards capitalism right now. France has a socialist history since Jean Jaur?s and L?on Blum.

And yes, America is still a democracy. Of course it is, don't believe everything Karl Zero says (French TV version of Bill O'Reilly, but on the liberal side and openly dislikes America). I'm not saying America is an example to follow, but I certainly don't think France is either (10 million unemployed people ain't exactly a great success in my book) - except for the wine and a few other things!

there is no success possible.
and we gotta stop thinking country-wise.
i mean, we're in the world now.

(and yes karl zero gets on my nerves)

[Will]

there is no success possible.
and we gotta stop thinking country-wise.
i mean, we're in the world now.

Sure, I didn't say otherwise.

[DeN]

karl zero is a sociologist now ? 
sorry i don't watch tv too much.

of course they are socialists and communists in france. they don't gouvern at the moment, that's all.

when i ask if you people think USA is still a democracy, i'm refering more about the artists who lives there
and think it's not, as David Bowie, or maybe the Rolling Stones, and of course some sociologists who think
it's dangerous to see america attacks irak without some concertations with other countries, for example.

and it's strange to see a big country like the US , with all these images of liberty, etc...becoming
this weird country more hypocrit than religious, in fact i love a part of the USA, the USA of tim burton,
woody allen, but when i see in the other hand than USA is the first country who kill the planet with it's
industry (USA is never there to sign some anti-pollution stuff) i can't say capitalism is the way.

of course in france (and a lot of european countries) they're unemployed people, but at least we have a decent
social protection. what about the poor people in USA ? maybe they work, but for peenuts, without any protection.
and there are a lot of people living in the streets too, but of course we don't see it too much on tv.

there is no example to follow, in my opinion, but a collective, worldwide discussion to have, and no, no G8 please,
it's just bullshit as we all see recently.

[Will]

karl zero is a sociologist now ?

He's a freakin communist.

what about the poor people in USA ? maybe they work, but for peenuts, without any protection.
and there are a lot of people living in the streets too, but of course we don't see it too much on tv.

Maybe you don't watch the right channels. On French TV they just love to show the bad side of America, just like they do there about France. Don't you think there are poor people in France or Europe who are left out? It's just the same, sure the social protection is better here, but take a walk at night in Paris or in the subway, you'll see poverty all over the place, people sleeping on the streets, etc. There are left out people everywhere, in socialist and capitalist countries, the figures may not be the same, but these people just suffer the same.

there is no example to follow, in my opinion, but a collective, worldwide discussion to have, and no, no G8 please,
it's just bullshit as we all see recently.

I do agree about that, unfortunately I'm not really optimistic about seeing such a discussion...

[pilferk]

Current political parties in France aren't "socialist", but France is indeed a socialist country, even though it's going towards capitalism right now. France has a socialist history since Jean Jaur?s and L?on Blum.

And yes, America is still a democracy. Of course it is, don't believe everything Karl Zero says (French TV version of Bill O'Reilly, but on the liberal side and openly dislikes America). I'm not saying America is an example to follow, but I certainly don't think France is either (10 million unemployed people ain't exactly a great success in my book) - except for the wine and a few other things!

The US is a democratic republic, if I remember correctly, not a "pure" democracy, but close enough.

It's that whole electoral college thing that's the difference.  We elect our "supreme leader" not by popular vote, but by electoral votes by state.  Each state of the republic gets a say based on population.

Not that it matters...or anyone cares.

[Where is Hassan Nasrallah ?]

i would also like to say that it's healthy for a society to have several political ideology represented
im happy we have communist in france
im happy we have socialist
and right wing.
we need all that. we need extreme left winger, we need people that still think there is a revolution needed and blah blah blah, the presence of communism in a political field is healthy.


the last thing we want is, like in the us, 2 major sides that in the end ...are very much the same ...

the only thing that we don't need is right wing extreme (saying racism and nationalism ...). this is not healthy
but a political party like the communist make the other parties don't forget soem basic social stuff....


so let's go on a communists are evil thing .... where 's mccarthy ?

[nesquick]

Karl Zero is biaised. It's weird because he seems pretty intelligent and clever, but he is very anti-american (like Canal + as a whole, I don't even want to talk about "les guignols de l'info" who are sometimes barely racists against USA). I think they are part of this whole alter-mondialism/anti-americanism trendy way of thinking. They are "gauchistes", or, at least, they are VERY lefties. In a long term, it's dangerous for people watching them almost everyday. I think it's dangerous for the youngest people, and it's dangerous for the french society. I also never ever appreciated how they turned Ben-Laden or Arafat in a "sympathic" sense while they are/were international criminals and terrorists. It biaised the public opinion. Criminals are now sympathic people...This is not responsible.