Socialism

[Where is Hassan Nasrallah ?]

is it that evil in the USA ?
i mean, what's wrong with wanting to help people out and share?

something i will never understand is how poor people, or let's say very middle class people,  can go for extreme capitalism and "power to the rich" type of system, when they aren't rich.
is it the hope to be rich one day ?

[Guns N RockMusic]

is it that evil in the USA ?
i mean, what's wrong with wanting to help people out and share?

something i will never understand is how poor people, or let's say very middle class people,? can go for extreme capitalism and "power to the rich" type of system, when they aren't rich.
is it the hope to be rich one day ?

I for one am against socialism because it takes away more freedoms and enlarges the government's grasp over the people.  Government's don't give back rights once they take them.  I'm against socialism because it's extremely inefficient.  I've never witnessed anyone on this board exclaim "powert to th rich."  Capitalism is about efficiency and the best product.  Wal-Mart is the epitome of capitalism and it's great. You get quality products at 2/3 to 1/2 the price you would at other stores.  Capitalism forces competition so that better products are created and is the only system of government in accordance with true liberty.  America's healthcare system is the best in the world and is accessible to most because of capitalism.  Where do Canadian leaders and Middle Eastern princes come to for their medical care -- the answer is the US and the cause behind it all is capitalism.
  I personally never intend to be "rich" but I do plan to be well off (high middle class).  Capitalism allows me to market my talents and abilities on a fair playing ground with others.  Capitalism allows me to make choices that are best for me.  Socialsm forces one inefficient standard down eveyone's throat.  If you're really interested in understanding why some of us advocate free market capitalism, I highly recommend reading Milton Friedman's "Free To Choose."  This book essentially outlines my and every other libertarian's point of view on social policy, economics and the governement.

[Where is Hassan Nasrallah ?]

so yes, i can see how the "dream" to live well (which i can tell can be sum up to *buy possess things*) is the goal behind the acceptance of capitalism.

wal-mart is great ? how can it be great ? the point of wal mart is "buying things" . is that what life is supposed to be about?

i understand the nice argument of "freedom to chose" and "if you work you're rewarded".
but capitalism, and the world as we see it today, shows one thing : loosers lose.

and there will always be losers. people that are ugly. people that can drive. people that are stupid.
what do you do with that ?

what i like about socialist (in a dreamy way) systems is that the people who succeeds can support the people who fails.
just remember when you where a kid, when kids story were about helping people, and the bad kid was the big capitalist one that does not share.


off course the governement has to be efficient, and moral and ethical, but it can work. it's harder to make a socialist govmt work than a simple capitalist one.
the point of human being being on earth is that people who succeed and get rich, must help the people who aren't - even if a real american would say no-.

but we have the same thing in France, people who lives in crappy homes and have no money and still root for the right wing because they hope, one day - that will never come - they will be rich - that's why they play the lottery i guess, funny how they use luck and not the system itself -

socialism can't work i guess when people don't wanna lower out standards. but we'll come to that. soon enough. we'll realize that we want too much.

You plan to be well off (high middle class) ?
the way i see it is that there is 10 part of a cake, and 5 people
and that you want 6 parts because lets say you're the strongest, and you dont care what othe other have.

a more social system would force the people to eat 2 parts each, and everyboyd is happy.

[SLCPUNK]

Why do you hate social programs so much? Why do you hate helping other people?

Please, spare me on the "pull themselves up by their boot straps" rant. I want a real answer. Why is it wrong to help other people?

I am certainly in support of social programs to help poor people. As a society we should all help one another, not be focused on the latest flat screen tv. I can certainly create a balance and allow myself to get ahead, while helping others.

[SLCPUNK]

Actually people are flying to India and other countries because the medical care is better (more RNs on duty, private rooms, one on one care, time with a Dr. instead of a nurse), the care facilites are better, and the cost is 1/10 that of the USA. People seeking cancer treatments are not financially ruined when they get a bill for 250k.

Americans are going TO CANADA to get medicine that is cheaper then here.

Capitalism and greed are sending people away to spend their money.

Walmart actually encourages socialist type behavior. Why? Because they pay their employees so shitty that most can not offer the insurance offered by walmart without going into the negative. So in turn walmart offers them government insurance programs to pay their medical. It is, our tax money, including yours goes to pay for the health insurance of these people you probably look down on. Because a greedy, low paying corporation won't provide the means for affordable health insurance. In turn it is pawned off on the American people to pay for. Bet you didn't know that.

Bet you didn't know that....

[Guns N RockMusic]

Why do you hate social programs so much? Why do you hate helping other people?

Please, spare me on the "pull themselves up by their boot straps" rant. I want a real answer. Why is it wrong to help other people?

I am certainly in support of social programs to help poor people. As a society we should all help one another, not be focused on the latest flat screen tv. I can certainly create a balance and allow myself to get ahead, while helping others.

I'm not against helping people on an individual basis. ?I can't stress enough how important the concept of the individual is to me. ?Socialsm does nothing but tear that concept down. ?People should help their fellow man if at all possible. ?However social programs are run by an inefficient government by bureaucracies that have no other interests but their own longevity. ?To quote Friedman "Asking for a system any other way would be like asking for a cat that barks." ?I the individual, community support group, etc. can much more productivley make sure that the money is going to those who need it most and being used properly. ?I distinctly remember when I was a small child my parents refused to buy me name brand clothes or name brand anything. ?Being young one aspires to fit in and the children on welfare would be wearing Nike's and getting name brand pop and chips with their food stamps while their parents bought cigarettes with the cash stipend each month.
 
The point of that story isn't that I didn't get name brand stuff when I was a kid. ?The point was that my family who was middle class and both of my parents whom worked were paying into a system where some mother could stay at home and pop out more kids every year to get money (this was before the Clinton welfare reforms.) ?My ultimate problem with social problems is that I have no choice into which ones I support. ?There are numerous programs that I strongly disagree with, yet my tax dollars go to it all the same, just as I'm sure many of your tax dollars goto programs you dislike. ?Under a true free-market system, we could place our monies into organizations we beleived in and in doing so those programs would be more responisble and accountable. ?To summarize SLC, I have no problem helping people, I do it all the time. ?I just hate being forced under penalty of jail if I don't.

[Guns N RockMusic]

Actually people are flying to India and other countries because the medical care is better (more RNs on duty, private rooms, one on one care, time with a Dr. instead of a nurse), the care facilites are better, and the cost is 1/10 that of the USA. People seeking cancer treatments are not financially ruined when they get a bill for 250k.

Americans are going TO CANADA to get medicine that is cheaper then here.

Capitalism and greed are sending people away to spend their money.

Walmart actually encourages socialist type behavior. Why? Because they pay their employees so shitty that most can not offer the insurance offered by walmart without going into the negative. So in turn walmart offers them government insurance programs to pay their medical. It is, our tax money, including yours goes to pay for the health insurance of these people you probably look down on. Because a greedy, low paying corporation won't provide the means for affordable health insurance. In turn it is pawned off on the American people to pay for. Bet you didn't know that.

Bet you didn't know that....

Can you provide a link or citation for that.  Not that I don't believe you (seriously), but I'd like to skim it over myself.

Americans are going to canada for perscription drugs, not actual medical treatment.  Your argument is flawed about people going to India.  People don't goto a third world country and expect to get the same quality of care as you would get in America.  Our medical technology and skill surpasses every other civilized country in the world, plus you don't have to wait 6 months to get surgery here (like you do in Canada).

[SLCPUNK]

Actually people are flying to India and other countries because the medical care is better (more RNs on duty, private rooms, one on one care, time with a Dr. instead of a nurse), the care facilites are better, and the cost is 1/10 that of the USA. People seeking cancer treatments are not financially ruined when they get a bill for 250k.

Americans are going TO CANADA to get medicine that is cheaper then here.

Capitalism and greed are sending people away to spend their money.

Walmart actually encourages socialist type behavior. Why? Because they pay their employees so shitty that most can not offer the insurance offered by walmart without going into the negative. So in turn walmart offers them government insurance programs to pay their medical. It is, our tax money, including yours goes to pay for the health insurance of these people you probably look down on. Because a greedy, low paying corporation won't provide the means for affordable health insurance. In turn it is pawned off on the American people to pay for. Bet you didn't know that.

Bet you didn't know that....

Can you provide a link or citation for that.  Not that I don't believe you (seriously), but I'd like to skim it over myself.

Americans are going to canada for perscription drugs, not actual medical treatment.  Your argument is flawed about people going to India.  People don't goto a third world country and expect to get the same quality of care as you would get in America.  Our medical technology and skill surpasses every other civilized country in the world, plus you don't have to wait 6 months to get surgery here (like you do in Canada).

That is what I said, people are going to Canada to get meds not medical surgery. You are trying to change what I said (as usual)

It is not flawed, it's fact.

http://www.bumrungrad.com/

 is in Thailand and I just saw big story on it about Americans who fly there for heart and cancer treatments for a fraction fo the cost.

I can't remember the hospital(s) in India, but they were world class facilities: every single person on staff was an RN, not somebody making 5 bucks an hour (capitalism at it's worst) to change your bed. Private rooms, doctors who spend time with you and many who also practice, or have worked in America first.

[pilferk]

Actually people are flying to India and other countries because the medical care is better (more RNs on duty, private rooms, one on one care, time with a Dr. instead of a nurse), the care facilites are better, and the cost is 1/10 that of the USA. People seeking cancer treatments are not financially ruined when they get a bill for 250k.

Americans are going TO CANADA to get medicine that is cheaper then here.

Capitalism and greed are sending people away to spend their money.

Walmart actually encourages socialist type behavior. Why? Because they pay their employees so shitty that most can not offer the insurance offered by walmart without going into the negative. So in turn walmart offers them government insurance programs to pay their medical. It is, our tax money, including yours goes to pay for the health insurance of these people you probably look down on. Because a greedy, low paying corporation won't provide the means for affordable health insurance. In turn it is pawned off on the American people to pay for. Bet you didn't know that.

Bet you didn't know that....

Can you provide a link or citation for that.? Not that I don't believe you (seriously), but I'd like to skim it over myself.

Americans are going to canada for perscription drugs, not actual medical treatment.? Your argument is flawed about people going to India.? People don't goto a third world country and expect to get the same quality of care as you would get in America.? Our medical technology and skill surpasses every other civilized country in the world, plus you don't have to wait 6 months to get surgery here (like you do in Canada).

That is what I said, people are going to Canada to get meds not medical surgery. You are trying to change what I said (as usual)

It is not flawed, it's fact.

http://www.bumrungrad.com/

 is in Thailand and I just saw big story on it about Americans who fly there for heart and cancer treatments for a fraction fo the cost.

I can't remember the hospital(s) in India, but they were world class facilities: every single person on staff was an RN, not somebody making 5 bucks an hour (capitalism at it's worst) to change your bed. Private rooms, doctors who spend time with you and many who also practice, or have worked in America first.

One point on the India "Hospital" you're mentioning (if it's the one I'm thinking of).? I have a bit of firsthand knowledge on that particular subject.

It IS a worldclass facility.? It DOES have the best and brightest working there. It DOES have the best equipment money can buy. It DOES pay it's staff comparably well (when compared to the pop of India).

It's also not really a "hospital" in the traditional sense of the word.? By the strictest definition, it is, but...well, let me explain.

The place is more like a world class resort than it is a hospital:? You need to make reservations and actually get them approved (ie: prove you can pay the fees) before you get treated.? There are Clinics like this in the US, as well, though you're right..they tend to be more expensive than their counterparts in India...largely because you can live in India like a prince on far less than you can in the US.? But make no mistake, you're not getting into this place if you're "Joe Schmoe" or if you want to pay via HMO.

So to equate it to a common PUBLIC hospital (where the "common man" is cared for) might not be the most acurate comparison. While what you said is 100% true, the impression it give is a little bit misleading.

You might not be paying 250k for your treatment, but you're not walking out the door with a $500 copay, either.

Edit:

Medicine and Medical Care Facilities are a sticky subject for me...they hit very close to home.

The institution I work in is BIG, known around the world, and...non-profit.  We have more than our fair share of Arabian Princes, Celebs, etc who come here for treatment, so we hear about places like the one you mention a LOT.

[SLCPUNK]

No, no I did not mean to imply that.

I did claim that the rate is about 1/10 of American costs.

If I had cancer and the treatment was 100k, I'd have to fork over 10k for the "stay".

I mean, look what kind of care and surroundings you get though. If I were facing something like that 220k bill or pay cash to fly around the world and have worldclass care...I'd take choice two.

I saw many people (on 60 minutes) only took that route because of cost. They'd pay 10k for a heart surgery because they knew the cost would kill them at home.

Also in this country, just because Joe Sixpack pays his HMO the copay does NOT mean your treament will be paid. You know that though. That is why I think it's better. I pay you XX amount of money and you treat me. Follow ups may be a tad difficult though...lol, but nothing is perfect.

One of the worst things I had to deal with was recovering for multiple surgeries (back to back) and having an HMO begin to deny my claim. Now that is a way to recover! 

[pilferk]

No, no I did not mean to imply that.

I did claim that the rate is about 1/10 of American costs.

If I had cancer and the treatment was 100k, I'd have to fork over 10k for the "stay".

I mean, look what kind of care and surroundings you get though. If I were facing something like that 220k bill or pay cash to fly around the world and have worldclass care...I'd take choice two.

Also in this country, just because Joe Sixpack pays his HMO the copay does NOT mean your treament will be paid. You know that though. That is why I think it's better. I pay you XX amount of money and you treat me. Follow ups may be a tad difficult though...lol, but nothing is perfect.

One of the worst things I had to deal with was recovering for multiple surgeries (back to back) and having an HMO begin to deny my claim. Now that is a way to recover!?

I agree, actually.? For a whole host of reasons relating to reimbursement (specifically by Medicaire and Medicaid), lowball payment by the HMO's, etc.? All of those issues lead to the healthcare facility not usually getting much more than "cost" (which includes professional fees) on a procedure, if anything.? I think,? if everyone paid cash up front, you'd actually see a reduction of charges.? But that's just a pet theory...

The problem is....not everyone has that 10k to pony up, up front.

In addition, that facility in India is really under no risk of "losing" money.? They get paid up front, so don't need to build in any of the actuarial garbage that most US facilities need to bring in.? That, and malpractice insurance in the US is astronomical....and those docs over in India don't have to worry a whit about either that, nor the incredibly litigious US court system.

There ARE things, untangible in some cases, that the extra 90% buys you....worth it or not is the question, obviously.

[Where is Hassan Nasrallah ?]

Why do you hate social programs so much? Why do you hate helping other people?

Please, spare me on the "pull themselves up by their boot straps" rant. I want a real answer. Why is it wrong to help other people?

I am certainly in support of social programs to help poor people. As a society we should all help one another, not be focused on the latest flat screen tv. I can certainly create a balance and allow myself to get ahead, while helping others.

I'm not against helping people on an individual basis. ?I can't stress enough how important the concept of the individual is to me. ?Socialsm does nothing but tear that concept down. ?People should help their fellow man if at all possible. ?However social programs are run by an inefficient government by bureaucracies that have no other interests but their own longevity. ?To quote Friedman "Asking for a system any other way would be like asking for a cat that barks." ?I the individual, community support group, etc. can much more productivley make sure that the money is going to those who need it most and being used properly. ?I distinctly remember when I was a small child my parents refused to buy me name brand clothes or name brand anything. ?Being young one aspires to fit in and the children on welfare would be wearing Nike's and getting name brand pop and chips with their food stamps while their parents bought cigarettes with the cash stipend each month.
 
The point of that story isn't that I didn't get name brand stuff when I was a kid. ?The point was that my family who was middle class and both of my parents whom worked were paying into a system where some mother could stay at home and pop out more kids every year to get money (this was before the Clinton welfare reforms.) ?My ultimate problem with social problems is that I have no choice into which ones I support. ?There are numerous programs that I strongly disagree with, yet my tax dollars go to it all the same, just as I'm sure many of your tax dollars goto programs you dislike. ?Under a true free-market system, we could place our monies into organizations we beleived in and in doing so those programs would be more responisble and accountable. ?To summarize SLC, I have no problem helping people, I do it all the time. ?I just hate being forced under penalty of jail if I don't.

free market that will support organizations that will, the, help people ... this makes no sense ... you're going back to what you hate.
the governmenet IS the organization that you're talking about.
but as it does not work perfectly, you diss it, and think free-market organizations will behave more efficiently... no way... it will be the same.

and why ? because men are evil in their way, and if an organisation does not force them to help each other out they won't.

complain about taxes ? are you kidding me ? try to imagine a world without taxes ? ... entrepreneurs would go "yeah no tax ! so we can hire people and all ...." don't lie to yourself. we wouldnt do it.
i am not an extreme communist that would say that companies just wanna keep the money (cause money must be used in the end ...). but if social system did not exist, poors would be really poor.

just look at it this way. see how many people are discarded from the american society ? this is insane.

[nesquick]

By definition, socialism and communism lead to fachism. We had several exemples in History. It doesn't work, simply because it is against the human beeing values.
 A social policy only works when the Economy is in the green. You can spend the money only if you have money. and to create money(to be in the green), people need to be free and create business whenever they want. As a consequence, Free Market is a necessity. The chalenge is how to regulate all that. It's a question of regulation. Liberalism with regulation is a factor of progress.

[Prometheus]

to throw down a bit for "mr music" , not that it affears that he is in the need of assistance at all, Im from canada. Most of you know that by now. it is at one of its lowest places that it has been in years, the main talk is a 2 teir health care system, not relegated by your ability to self pay the pblic system would be completely open to all citizens regardless of networth, but a second system would be laid down over the top for people who can pay can do so and speed their medical treatment. First off im not agnist this idea, but in its current state im not in favour of it. Simply because it allows for paying citizens to jump line for different testing and treatments, such as MRI, heart surgery, etc. , becuase the pay system would be using the current infastructure to do a large section of its work. You go to the standard ER in any hospital and if your paying you go ahead except for the basic triage seperation walking talking and bleeding (ambulance rides) bleeding goes first, if you can walk and talk you last, broken bones go in the middle and then heart attacks and all come in over the top in first but there are not 100 HA's coming in every hour.

to get signed off on this 2 teir seperate private funded testing facilties would have to be establishedER is for everyone, no net worth biasis. a great pressure would come off our current system due to these private testing facilties, as the public system could purchase time on these machines at off hours say 5am-8am and 8pm-1am. somethig as simple as that would get me to sign off on it, granted there are many finer points as well that can be discussed and tuned but overall that would make me happier with it.

now back to my main point at hand, i agree that there is far too much weight that sits on the top of the scale in most govermetn controled agencies, there need to be more on the ground in your face doing teh jobs, the base line personel need better pay, persons on welfare need to get that shit buttoned up, seriously this is where i get down to using mandatory ID carding for all citizens that re required for work food stamps etc. no more dicking around in the back rooms doing work under teh table and getting cash, tie the food stamps to the card so you never see them and if you dont have your card you can claim em, neither can anyone else. eliminate cash across board go pure electronic, have big brother with more eyes in you shit, you can only use that card nothing else to get money, if money enters that card and your on welfare your flagged, and monitered... im sure you see where im getting..... its not what mr music was saying its the complete opp. but there is a need for more goverement control into these areas. there are far too much grey area dealings going on. just think of the small boom that would occur if all cash jobs became taxed andrecorded wages? hell im sure you could boost gdp by a full 2% points. I know in my provience there was a grey market study done on the cash economy and it was estimated that there is a economy about 15% the size of the offical economy that runs rampent in everyones lives. Im after doing many cash jobs, I know of people that have been double and tripple dipping the welfare game, claming from 3 different offices in 2 different areas, and because of the shar lack of personel on the front lnes went un noticed for 3-4 years and was ordered to repay, couldnt got tossed in jail for 3 months and released and went back on welfare....


the over all problem is that there is lack of understanding at the top of what is exactly happening at the bottom, and all that is said is cut x amount from your budget, so they cut front lines and keep themseleves......

[DeN]

capitalism is the worst "democratic" system on earth, and we'll have to pay (humans, earth) for it one day.

soon, i'm afraid.

is human race on earth to product, to make money ?

or are we all here for something more generous, interesting, spiritual ?

i don't like to live in a merchants's world.

[Will]

You're all a bunch of tree-hugging hippies.

[DeN]

all in all you're just another brick in the wall

[SLCPUNK]

You're all a bunch of tree-hugging hippies.

Yea! If you don't like it in America, you can leave!

Bunch of complainers!

[Sterlingdog]

I'm not even going to pretend to be as knowledgeable as some you are on this subject.  But I will say that any system that doesn't allow me to live better than someone who is lazy and has no ambition, bothers me.  I work hard, I'm educated, and I carry a great deal of responsibility.  I think I should live better than some of the people I employ.  Sorry if that seems snobby, but that's how I feel.

On the other hand, I know how important social programs are.  I work for a non-profit that is directly funded by both federal and state social programs.  Believe me, everytime there is a republican in office, we just hold on and hope we survive the term, because funding is always tight and is always threatened.  But I would be afraid to give up on that funding, give everyone tax cuts, and hope that they would see fit to keep supporting us.  I just don't think it would happen.  A large part of my clientelle is developmentally disabled.  People don't like retarded people.  They like to pretend they don't exist.  I don't think they would give us their money.  We never get private donations or even outside volunteers.

[POPmetal]

By definition, socialism and communism lead to fachism. We had several exemples in History. It doesn't work, simply because it is against the human beeing values.
 A social policy only works when the Economy is in the green. You can spend the money only if you have money. and to create money(to be in the green), people need to be free and create business whenever they want. As a consequence, Free Market is a necessity. The chalenge is how to regulate all that. It's a question of regulation. Liberalism with regulation is a factor of progress.

While I personally believe in minimum regulation, this is a great post nesquick As someone who grew up behind the Iron Curtain, I know from firsthand experience that socialism does not work. It only ruins things for everyone (well, except the oligarchs in the party who live like kings at the expense of everyone else). I am appalled that people would ask the question of this thread