Judge: School Pledge Is Unconstitutional

[Izzy]

the pledge freaked me out. I worked as a soccer coach at a summer camp last year and didnt see it coming, but every single morning regular as clockwork. And the kids refused to believe we didnt have one in britain.

The idea of getting children to pledge allegiance to this and that at school has always bothered me - there is something very sinister about it, whatever the wording....

[Mal Brossard]

The pledge and our money only had "under God" added as a supposed defense against those Godless Commies who were trying to take over the world.  The communist threat is over.  It never even was a real threat-- communism would never work in the USA.  It's time to take it out.  As an atheist, I refused to recite the pledge when we had to say it in middle school (we never said it in high school or college).  I even got kicked out of class one day for my refusal to stand and recite.

Robin Williams had it right "One nation, under Canada and above Mexico."

I prefer "One nation under ZOG."

[SLCPUNK]

the pledge freaked me out. I worked as a soccer coach at a summer camp last year and didnt see it coming, but every single morning regular as clockwork. And the kids refused to believe we didnt have one in britain.

The idea of getting children to pledge allegiance to this and that at school has always bothered me - there is something very sinister about it, whatever the wording....

I find the daily drone act itself, much more offensive then the word God.

[shades]

question, what exactly do you believe in if you dont believe in a God?

[Sterlingdog]

the pledge freaked me out. I worked as a soccer coach at a summer camp last year and didnt see it coming, but every single morning regular as clockwork. And the kids refused to believe we didnt have one in britain.

The idea of getting children to pledge allegiance to this and that at school has always bothered me - there is something very sinister about it, whatever the wording....

This and that???  They are pledging allegience to our country.  Not this and that. 

[Surfrider]

the pledge freaked me out. I worked as a soccer coach at a summer camp last year and didnt see it coming, but every single morning regular as clockwork. And the kids refused to believe we didnt have one in britain.

The idea of getting children to pledge allegiance to this and that at school has always bothered me - there is something very sinister about it, whatever the wording....

This and that? They are pledging allegience to our country.? Not this and that.?

What has always bothered me is the fact that many do not want to pledge allegiance to the flag.

[Sterlingdog]

the pledge freaked me out. I worked as a soccer coach at a summer camp last year and didnt see it coming, but every single morning regular as clockwork. And the kids refused to believe we didnt have one in britain.

The idea of getting children to pledge allegiance to this and that at school has always bothered me - there is something very sinister about it, whatever the wording....

This and that? They are pledging allegience to our country.? Not this and that.?

What has always bothered me is the fact that many do not want to pledge allegiance to the flag.

I agree.  I don't see anything negative about having children learn respect for the flag of their country.  I'm upset that there is now a restraining order which may prevent my child from saying the pledge at all.  She's only been in school for a couple weeks and has just started to learn it.  Now its being stopped.  Its ridiculous.  I guess I could have her do it at home,  but I think its appropriate at school.

[SLCPUNK]

I think it loses it's meaning when said like that everyday. I certainly don't have a problem with it, but I remember many kids just mumbling away......

[Mal Brossard]

I have no objection to pledging to a flag and the country, but I do have a problem with saying this is "one nation under god."  This is an endorsement of a religion-- while not a specific religion in regards to a specific sect or denomination, it is a denunciation of atheists and agnostics.

This is why it was added in the first place-- to denouce Communists, where a main tenet is godlessness.

[Kitano]

I have no objection to pledging to a flag and the country, but I do have a problem with saying this is "one nation under god."? This is an endorsement of a religion-- while not a specific religion in regards to a specific sect or denomination, it is a denunciation of atheists and agnostics.

This is why it was added in the first place-- to denouce Communists, where a main tenet is godlessness.

I think some of the comments show a basic misunderstanding of the pledge.  The founding fathers were mostly Christian and believed that our rights and freedoms were granted by God.  Therefore it is entirely accurate to say that this nation was created "under God".

People who buy into the seperation of church and state lie should consider this is a quote from Thomas Jefferson.

In the beginning of the contest with Great Britain, when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayer in this room for the divine protection. Our prayers, sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered. All of us who were engaged in the struggle must have observed frequent instances of a superintending Providence in our favor.

The establishment clause of the consititution says that the government shall not establish a state church like the church of england not that the government and religion should be seperate.

[Surfrider]

The establishment clause of the consititution says that the government shall not establish a state church like the church of england not that the government and religion should be seperate.

That is absolutely correct.  However, many just do not understand this point.  In fact, many states had established religions when the Consitution was ratified.

[SLCPUNK]

I have no objection to pledging to a flag and the country, but I do have a problem with saying this is "one nation under god."  This is an endorsement of a religion-- while not a specific religion in regards to a specific sect or denomination, it is a denunciation of atheists and agnostics.

I do have a fundamental problem with this too, but it does not offend me. I am not sure if I belive it denounces atheism or other religions. However this is not a nation founded on Christianity as many would like to believe, or do believe. There are many different beliefs in this country, that is in fact, what makes America...America.

What if we switched the word "God" for "Allah"...think more people would care then?

[SLCPUNK]

I have no objection to pledging to a flag and the country, but I do have a problem with saying this is "one nation under god."  This is an endorsement of a religion-- while not a specific religion in regards to a specific sect or denomination, it is a denunciation of atheists and agnostics.

This is why it was added in the first place-- to denouce Communists, where a main tenet is godlessness.

I think some of the comments show a basic misunderstanding of the pledge.  The founding fathers were mostly Christian and believed that our rights and freedoms were granted by God.  Therefore it is entirely accurate to say that this nation was created "under God".

Oh boy....

It is when you guys start to re-write history that I get nervous, as should anybody who wants a basic understanding of our country and what it was founded on. Our founding fathers were not "mostly Christian" that believed "our freedoms were granted by God." This is false.

George Washington, the first president of the United States, never declared himself a Christian according to contemporary reports or in any of his voluminous correspondence. Washington Championed the cause of freedom from religious intolerance and compulsion. When John Murray (a universalist who denied the existence of hell) was invited to become an army chaplain, the other chaplains petitioned Washington for his dismissal. Instead, Washington gave him the appointment. On his deathbed, Washinton uttered no words of a religious nature and did not call for a clergyman to be in attendance.

From:
George Washington and Religion by Paul F. Boller Jr., pp. 16, 87, 88, 108, 113, 121, 127 (1963, Southern Methodist University Press, Dallas, TX)

John Adams It was during Adam's administration that the Senate ratified the Treaty of Peace and Friendship, which states in Article XI that "the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion."

From:
The Character of John Adams by Peter Shaw, pp. 17 (1976, North Carolina Press, Chapel Hill, NC) Quoting a letter by JA to Charles Cushing Oct 19, 1756, and John Adams, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by James Peabody, p. 403 (1973, Newsweek, New York NY) Quoting letter by JA to Jefferson April 19, 1817, and in reference to the treaty, Thomas Jefferson, Passionate Pilgrim by Alf Mapp Jr., pp. 311 (1991, Madison Books, Lanham, MD) quoting letter by TJ to Dr. Benjamin Waterhouse, June, 1814.

Thomas Jefferson, third president and author of the Declaration of Independence, said:"I trust that there is not a young man now living in the United States who will not die a Unitarian." He referred to the Revelation of St. John as "the ravings of a maniac" and wrote:
The Christian priesthood, finding the doctrines of Christ levelled to every understanding and too plain to need explanation, saw, in the mysticisms of Plato, materials with which they might build up an artificial system which might, from its indistinctness, admit everlasting controversy, give employment for their order, and introduce it to profit, power, and pre-eminence. The doctrines which flowed from the lips of Jesus himself are within the comprehension of a child; but thousands of volumes have not yet explained the Platonisms engrafted on them: and for this obvious reason that nonsense can never be explained."

From:
Thomas Jefferson, an Intimate History by Fawn M. Brodie, p. 453 (1974, W.W) Norton and Co. Inc. New York, NY) Quoting a letter by TJ to Alexander Smyth Jan 17, 1825, and Thomas Jefferson, Passionate Pilgrim by Alf Mapp Jr., pp. 246 (1991, Madison Books, Lanham, MD) quoting letter by TJ to John Adams, July 5, 1814.

James Madison, fourth president and father of the Constitution, was not religious in any conventional sense. "Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."
"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."

From:
The Madisons by Virginia Moore, P. 43 (1979, McGraw-Hill Co. New York, NY) quoting a letter by JM to William Bradford April 1, 1774, and James Madison, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by Joseph Gardner, p. 93, (1974, Newsweek, New York, NY) Quoting Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments by JM, June 1785.

Benjamin Franklin delegate to the Continental Congress and the Constitutional Convention, said:
As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion...has received various corrupting Changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his Divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the Truth with less trouble." He died a month later, and historians consider him, like so many great Americans of his time, to be a Deist, not a Christian.

From:
Benjamin Franklin, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by Thomas Fleming, p. 404, (1972, Newsweek, New York, NY) quoting letter by BF to Exra Stiles March 9, 1970.

[Sterlingdog]

As I said before, I don't care if the words under god are in there or not.? It doesn't change the basic meaning and I don't think it hurts anyone.? But I would rather see those words dropped if that's what it takes to continue saying the pledge.? Right now the schools involved aren't supposed to recite the pledge at all.

Even worse, my child's school district has to spend time and money fighting this lawsuit.  I'd rather it be spent on more important things.

[SLCPUNK]

 I'd rather it be spent on more important things.

Me too.

[Surfrider]

I have no objection to pledging to a flag and the country, but I do have a problem with saying this is "one nation under god."? This is an endorsement of a religion-- while not a specific religion in regards to a specific sect or denomination, it is a denunciation of atheists and agnostics.

This is why it was added in the first place-- to denouce Communists, where a main tenet is godlessness.

I think some of the comments show a basic misunderstanding of the pledge.? The founding fathers were mostly Christian and believed that our rights and freedoms were granted by God.? Therefore it is entirely accurate to say that this nation was created "under God".

Oh boy....

It is when you guys start to re-write history that I get nervous, as should anybody who wants a basic understanding of our country and what it was founded on. Our founding fathers were not "mostly Christian" that believed "our freedoms were granted by God." This is false.

Sorry SLC, can't agree with you on this one. ?You are the one being misguided by those who actually want to re-write history. ?While some of these framers did at times criticize religion in private writings, their public statements (which of course is what one should rely on when looking at the founding beliefs of a nation) are quite the contrary.

George Washington, the first president of the United States, never declared himself a Christian according to contemporary reports or in any of his voluminous correspondence. Washington Championed the cause of freedom from religious intolerance and compulsion. When John Murray (a universalist who denied the existence of hell) was invited to become an army chaplain, the other chaplains petitioned Washington for his dismissal. Instead, Washington gave him the appointment. On his deathbed, Washinton uttered no words of a religious nature and did not call for a clergyman to be in attendance.

From:
George Washington and Religion by Paul F. Boller Jr., pp. 16, 87, 88, 108, 113, 121, 127 (1963, Southern Methodist University Press, Dallas, TX)

George Washington's official actions were quite the contrary:

"George Washington added to the form of Presidential oath prescribed by Art. II, ?1, cl. 8, of the Constitution, the concluding words ?so help me God.? See Blomquist, The PresidentialOath, the American National Interest and a Call for Presiprudence,
73 UMKC L. Rev. 1, 34 (2004)."

"President Washington offered the first Thanksgiving Proclamation shortly thereafter, devoting November 26, 1789 on behalf of the American people ? ?to the service of that great and glorious Being who is the beneficent author of all the good that is, that was, or that will be,? ? Van Orden v. Perry, ante, at 7?8 (plurality opinion)(quoting President Washington?s first Thanksgiving Proclamation), thus beginning a tradition of offering gratitude to God that continues today."


"President Washington opened his Presidency with a prayer, see Inaugural Addresses of the Presidents of the United States 1, 2 (1989), and reminded his fellow citizens at the conclusion of it that ?reason and experience both forbid us to expect that National morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.? Farewell Address (1796), reprinted in35 Writings of George Washington 229 (J. Fitzpatrick ed. 1940)."

George Washington, who, in his famous Letter to the Hebrew Congregation of Newport, Rhode Island, wrote that,
?All possess alike liberty of conscience and immunitiesof citizenship. It is now no more that toleration is spoken of, as if it was by the indulgence of one class of people, that another enjoyed the exercise of their inherent
natural rights.?

The letter concluded, by the way, with an invocation of the one God:

?May the father of all mercies scatter light and not
darkness in our paths, and make us all in our several
vocations useful here, and in his own due time and
way everlastingly happy.? Ibid.

John Adams It was during Adam's administration that the Senate ratified the Treaty of Peace and Friendship, which states in Article XI that "the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion."

From:
The Character of John Adams by Peter Shaw, pp. 17 (1976, North Carolina Press, Chapel Hill, NC) Quoting a letter by JA to Charles Cushing Oct 19, 1756, and John Adams, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by James Peabody, p. 403 (1973, Newsweek, New York NY) Quoting letter by JA to Jefferson April 19, 1817, and in reference to the treaty, Thomas Jefferson, Passionate Pilgrim by Alf Mapp Jr., pp. 311 (1991, Madison Books, Lanham, MD) quoting letter by TJ to Dr. Benjamin Waterhouse, June, 1814.

I see how this supports your former point, but not the latter one. ?While the framers no where intended Christianity to be the only religion, they certainly thought religion would play a central role in society and government.

"President John Adams wrote to the Massachusetts Militia, ?we have no government armed with power capable
of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. . . . Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.?

Thomas Jefferson, third president and author of the Declaration of Independence, said:"I trust that there is not a young man now living in the United States who will not die a Unitarian." He referred to the Revelation of St. John as "the ravings of a maniac" and wrote:
The Christian priesthood, finding the doctrines of Christ levelled to every understanding and too plain to need explanation, saw, in the mysticisms of Plato, materials with which they might build up an artificial system which might, from its indistinctness, admit everlasting controversy, give employment for their order, and introduce it to profit, power, and pre-eminence. The doctrines which flowed from the lips of Jesus himself are within the comprehension of a child; but thousands of volumes have not yet explained the Platonisms engrafted on them: and for this obvious reason that nonsense can never be explained."

From:
Thomas Jefferson, an Intimate History by Fawn M. Brodie, p. 453 (1974, W.W) Norton and Co. Inc. New York, NY) Quoting a letter by TJ to Alexander Smyth Jan 17, 1825, and Thomas Jefferson, Passionate Pilgrim by Alf Mapp Jr., pp. 246 (1991, Madison Books, Lanham, MD) quoting letter by TJ to John Adams, July 5, 1814.

While perhaps not a Chrisitan, Jefferson quite often invoked the name of God in his speeches and actions:

Thomas Jefferson concluded his second inaugural address by inviting his audience to pray:

?I shall need, too, the favor of that Being in whose hands we are, who led our fathers, as Israel of old, from their native land and planted them in a country flowing with all the necessaries and comforts of life; who has covered our infancy with His providence and our riper years with His wisdom and power and towhose goodness I ask you to join in supplications with me that He will so enlighten the minds of your servants, guide their councils, and prosper their measures that whatsoever they do shall result in your good, and shall secure to you the peace, friendship, and approbation of all nations.? Inaugural Addressesof the Presidents of the United States, at 18, 22?23.

What Jefferson has inscribed in his tombstone "was his authorship of the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom, a governmental act which begins ?Whereas Almighty God hath created the mind free . . . .? Va. Code Ann. ?57?1

[Surfrider]

James Madison, fourth president and father of the Constitution, was not religious in any conventional sense. "Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."
"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."

From:
The Madisons by Virginia Moore, P. 43 (1979, McGraw-Hill Co. New York, NY) quoting a letter by JM to William Bradford April 1, 1774, and James Madison, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by Joseph Gardner, p. 93, (1974, Newsweek, New York, NY) Quoting Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments by JM, June 1785.

"James Madison, in his first inaugural address, likewise placed his confidence ?in the guardianship and guidance of that Almighty Being whose power regulates the destiny of nations, whose blessings have been so conspicuously dispensed
to this rising Republic, and to whom we are bound to address our devout gratitude for the past, as well as our fervent supplications and best hopes for the future.? Id., at 25, 28."



In addition to the few you mentioned, God was invoked in public forums all of the time in the founding era.  Here some more examples:

"The SupremeCourt under John Marshall opened its sessions with the prayer, ?God save the United States and this Honorable Court.? 1 C. Warren, The Supreme Court in United States History 469 (rev. ed. 1926). The First Congress instituted the practice of beginning its legislative sessions with a prayer. Marsh v. Chambers, 463 U. S. 783, 787 (1983). The same week that Congress submitted the Establishment Clause as part of the Bill of Rights for ratification by the States, it enacted legislation providing for paid chaplains in the House and Senate. Id., at 788. The day afterthe First Amendment was proposed, the same Congress that had proposed it requested the President to proclaim ? a day of public thanksgiving and prayer, to be observed, by acknowledging, with grateful hearts, the many and signal favours of Almighty God.? See H. R. Jour., 1st Cong., 1st Sess. 123 (1826 ed.); see also Sen. Jour., 1st Sess., 88 (1820 ed.)"

"The same Congress also reenacted the Northwest Territory Ordinance of 1787, 1 Stat. 50, Article III of which provided: ?Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged.? Id., at 52, n. (a). And of course the First Amendment itself accords religion (and no other manner of belief) special constitutional protection."

[SLCPUNK]

We have two posts that have conflicting quotes.

But, the argument was that this nation was founded on Christianity. Even with your quotes, (which I'd like to see a link and read more please) there is nowhere that indicates that the people who framed this country's Constitution did so on the basis of Christianity. Hardly anything in the Constitution references Christian thought and morality;it is merely wishful thinking.

[Surfrider]

We have two posts that have conflicting quotes.

But, the argument was that this nation was founded on Christianity. Even with your quotes, (which I'd like to see a link and read more please) there is nowhere that indicates that the people who framed this country's Constitution did so on the basis of Christianity. Hardly anything in the Constitution references Christian thought and morality;it is merely wishful thinking.

I thought you would say that.  Your argument seemed a little broader since you wrote:

Our founding fathers were not "mostly Christian" that believed "our freedoms were granted by God."

The first part of the sentence is correct; the second part is not.  What quote specifically are you referring to that contradict, perhaps I can try and explain the contradiction.

My quote were all from the recent McCreary decision, taken from Justice Scalia's dissent.  He cites all of these things in case you want to look for them in historical text.  I would suggest that you read the entire opinion, it is quite a good read.  Especially Scalia's dissent.  He actually addresses some of the conflicting quotes that Justice Stevens uses in his opinion.

[SLCPUNK]

We have two posts that have conflicting quotes.

But, the argument was that this nation was founded on Christianity. Even with your quotes, (which I'd like to see a link and read more please) there is nowhere that indicates that the people who framed this country's Constitution did so on the basis of Christianity. Hardly anything in the Constitution references Christian thought and morality;it is merely wishful thinking.

I thought you would say that.  Your argument seemed a little broader since you wrote:

Our founding fathers were not "mostly Christian" that believed "our freedoms were granted by God."

The first part of the sentence is correct; the second part is not.  What quote specifically are you referring to that contradict, perhaps I can try and explain the contradiction.
.

Then maybe focused too much on the first part, ie Christianity.



Do you not have a link GNRNIGHTRAIN?