Slash, Duff Sue Axl Over Guns N' Roses Publishing Royalties

[Shoco]

I just wonder if they got their 2nd quarter check which wouldve been due in July?

i was thinking the exact same thing

[pilferk]

I wonder if they asked for an explanation or for it to be fixed before going to court.

Also, it would be interesting to know if/how this is connected to the other lawsuit.




/jarmo

I think you hit the nail on the head when brining up the connection to the other lawsuit.

I surmise this is all based on the issues brought to light in that first suit, and just who owns the rights to the back catalog.? What I think Axl and Sanctuary may be doing is, in light of that litigation, putting the royalties in a sort of "escrow" account, pending the results of the initial suit.? Until the rights are clearly defined by the court, I'll bet, Axl's assertion is that no one gets paid a dime.? Since he has, up to now, acted as the "gaurdian" if you will of the catalog, he is continuing to do so.

Also, by doing this, I think he's attempting to set legal precedent that he has now, and in the past, had full control over the catalog.? A legal wrangling to help his position in the initial action, if true.

And finally, it could also be  a "hardball" tactic from Axl's legal team, possibly trying to force some sort of settlement in the initial action...sort of holding the money "hostage" until the initial suit is resolved.

And if Slash and Duff's lawyers didn't see this coming back in February...they should be fired.  Though I also suspect the lawyers are the ones who "convinced" Slash and Duff to file the initial suit, seing some sort of loophole that wasn't notice previously.

[February]

Just My two cent's, publishing right's is one thing, and the royalties for that belong to sanctuary, because they bought it, and Axl must ?owned them he did sell them and Slash n Duf didn't put a "|restraining order" on the contract, i aspected they would considering the pending claim they've got an Axl for buying the name GNR.
Another thing is intelectual property, author right's, the two right's can or not belong to some entity (Beatles did), GNR no.
So, ?92.000 is the amount for what? publishing right's and author right's? for author right's alone?
does ASAP or whatever start's paying money to the wrong people because someone told them to do so and the former beneficieries (several separated entities) are not informed? Are you kiding? I can't believe that that's how you do business in America.
More likely? The SnD lawyer probably tried an out of court ?understanding with sanctuary and Axl for his clients to get some money on the publishing right's sell, that didn't go well so he put them in court again. It's a nice way to pressure for an agreement without going to court if the other part is not going for it, a good point in that direction is when a lawyer instead of reaching for the law to make is point is going for a public weak spot, altought most people do the most horrific things to former friends, relatives and business associatives for the right amount of money, we all like to think that we're better than that and wouldn't double cross a friend. When public image is very important to someone that's one sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet spot to go for.
Is it possible that we do not have an american ou english lawyer in this board? ?
Believe me laywers should love these guy's, it's a lawyers dream ...actually i know a few that would keep Axl, Slash n Duf fighting for the rest of their lives and their weirs too.
My former boss, a laywer, said that the good laywer is the one who trnasform's a friendly divorce in a walk to the poor house....for the clients of course, after paying for legal cost's there should be nothing to divide.
Take that in consideration.

Feb

[madagas]

Another thing to keep in mind is that if the new royalty money is coming from any part of Sanctuary, it may not be coming for one reason-they are going bankrupt!!!!!! Sanctuary is a sinking ship-at least parts of it. I do think they have a strong management roster. Over on the velvet rope, many posters are saying they have multiple outstanding invoices from Sanctuary. I don't know specifics but I'm just throwing that out there. I also said a while ago that this lawsuit is going to be a major problem for Axl because he insists on using the name. If you don't think this affects Chinese, then you are living in a dream world. Pilferk, I think it is actually Slash and Duff that are making the major power play here. They are really putting more and more pressure on Axl to resolve this entire mess. You guys crack me up about a reunion....yeah, they'll be reuniting alright, in court or in a fight to the death cage match!.....Get in the Ring!

[jemin]

Miskel said that only last week did they discover that Rose had notified ASCAP on or around May 26 that he was switching over the publishing from Guns N' Roses to Black Frog Music Publishing (which he owns) and Kobalt Songs Music Publishing (which is a joint venture with and handles the administration of Sanctuary's publishing). Consequently, the ASCAP check for the first quarter of 2005 ? some $92,000 ? went to Rose and "his accomplices" instead, the lawsuit contends.

That was nowhere in any reports of the Sanctuary deal that I had seen when all this was being reported!? They never say they didn't know about the Sanctuary deal only that they didn't know he had switched from the original publishing company over into a company he himself owned.

[GypsySoul]

Miskel said that only last week did they discover that Rose had notified ASCAP on or around May 26 that he was switching over the publishing from Guns N' Roses to Black Frog Music Publishing (which he owns) and Kobalt Songs Music Publishing (which is a joint venture with and handles the administration of Sanctuary's publishing). Consequently, the ASCAP check for the first quarter of 2005 ? some $92,000 ? went to Rose and "his accomplices" instead, the lawsuit contends.

"only last week did they discover" .... ONLY LAST WEEK?? ? ? FUCK!!!! Even I've known about that publishing deal for months now!!!

Besides Miskel's insinuations, how would we (or they) know if Axl even got his check? ??

"They're seeking damages for fraud, copyright infringement and breach of fiduciary duty, among other things."


Slash and Duffs paycheck is in Axl's Black Frog bank account. Noone but Axl has access to that company because Axl owns it. Black Frog is probably just a computer at his house, because we know Axl doesnt release music with that label.

Thanks for trying to answer my question, jabba2, but I don't think I asked it right.? What I'm trying to find out is that with all the "privacy" laws, how would someone (SnD) know if someone else (Axl) was paid anything unless that person (Axl) released that info himself?? I don't know how the laws in California work but I don't believe that people can access someone else's financial records without a court order of some kind.
 

[Eva GnRAxlRosette]

Just My two cent's, publishing right's is one thing, and the royalties for that belong to sanctuary, because they bought it, and Axl must ?owned them he did sell them and Slash n Duf didn't put a "|restraining order" on the contract, i aspected they would considering the pending claim they've got an Axl for buying the name GNR.
Another thing is intelectual property, author right's, the two right's can or not belong to some entity (Beatles did), GNR no.
So, ?92.000 is the amount for what? publishing right's and author right's? for author right's alone?

According to the article, the dispute is for publisher rights. ?according to ASCAP, there are two types of members: ?Publisher Members, and Writer Members. ?What you refer to as 'author's rights' would be handled through the Writer Member's membership.
Writer Members works which are the product of collaboration must indicate apportionments of royalties at the time the work is registered. ?Writer Members are individuals. ?Publisher Members are companies. ?i.e. "Guns N' Roses"/"Guns N' Roses Music"
(i posted a link to the ASCAP info in my previous post which is on the previous page of this thread)

does ASAP or whatever start's paying money to the wrong people because someone told them to do so and the former beneficieries (several separated entities) are not informed? Are you kiding? I can't believe that that's how you do business in America.

According to ?the info on ASCAP's site, NO, the Publisher Member is a company and the Publisher Membership application includes the designation of a person to act as the publisher's representative "for all purposes". ?ASCAP would make changes only at the request of this designated representative.

So who was the designated representative for the Guns N' Roses ASCAP Publisher Member?

Apparently, based on what the article says about Axl requesting the change, and ASCAP's doing so, that designated representative is Axl.


His being the designated representative, goes further to demonstrate that he is in possession of rights which Slash and Duff are seekig to deny in the initial action.....

...Also, by doing this, I think he's attempting to set legal precedent that he has now, and in the past, had full control over the catalog. ?A legal wrangling to help his position in the initial action, if true.

whether intentional or not - i believe it has had this effect.

And finally, it could also be a "hardball" tactic from Axl's legal team, possibly trying to force some sort of settlement in the initial action...sort of holding the money "hostage" until the initial suit is resolved.

I agree, as I stated in my previous post, if Axl's action demonstrates that he is the designated representative and in control of Guns N' Roses ASCAP Publisher Membership (which it seems he is), then Slash and Duff may be motivated to relinquish their claims in the first suit in exchange for a settlement in this action.

[madagas]

Gypsy, they may have gotten the info from discovery in the other lawsuit. I'm sure that S/D's atty's requested Axl to produce his income streams from the Gnr back catalog. Just assuming.

[madagas]

Here is the latest on the Sanctuary buyout and financial situation. It looks like they won't be bought out in the immediate future-possibly a good sign for Axl. However, they have a lot of debt problems. In regards to Chinese, the second lawsuit will not complicate things anymore than the first. It is simply S/D broadening their claims. Same atty's on both I am sure.

http://www.billboard.com/bb/biz/index.jsp

[PhillyRiot]

Another page into the tragic saga of GNR.  Axl never runs out ways to disappoint his fans.  I hope someday all this bullshit ends and we get a reunion.  When the hell is Axl going to give the fans any good news?  Someone answer me that question, because it is just one disapointment after another.  He is a rock genius, but he has let us down time and time again.

[killingvector]

I agree, as I stated in my previous post, if Axl's action demonstrates that he is the designated representative and in control of Guns N' Roses ASCAP Publisher Membership (which it seems  he is), then Slash and Duff may be motivated to relinquish their claims in the first suit in exchange for a settlement in this action.

And this I think is the key point here. Slash and Duff want this latest case to be further evidence of fraud, axl could possibly be demonstrating that he has always been considered part of the partnership of the old catalog.

I wonder though if slash and duff are crying fraud because of the switch to Black Frog Ltd, apparently a company owned by Axl. Since he would have some control over the funds and Slash and Duff did not receive their checks, perhaps this is the basis of the fraud allegation. As someone said, if Axl is countersuing S and D and challenging their stake in the partnership, because as axl is apparently alleging that S and D left the partnership when they bolted GnR, he is withholding the monies until the first lawsuit is resolved. A very salient point and worth consideration.

I cannot believe though that Axl would be so cavilier as to block the rightful payout to S and D in such a public and easily detected manner. There is definately more beneath the skin.

[kyrie]

Another page into the tragic saga of GNR.? Axl never runs out ways to disappoint his fans.? I hope someday all this bullshit ends and we get a reunion.? When the hell is Axl going to give the fans any good news?? Someone answer me that question, because it is just one disapointment after another.? He is a rock genius, but he has let us down time and time again.

Exactly how is AXL disappointing the fans on this one? SLASH and DUFF have been lawsuit happy for a long while. You're making a judgement based on a bare-bones article that is one-sided and far from complete. This sounds like leverage for the existing lawsuit - filed by S&D. I realize you've got reasons to be bitter, but really, if anyone is to blame here I'd say it's lawyers.

People in this thread passing judgement based on an MTV blurb - get a clue, please. Buy one, borrow one, fucking steal one. But then I guess news is so slow lately, we need to harp about something.

But back to reality - you all seem to think this is personally the work of Axl. I've got news for you, if anyone is to blame here, it's lawyers and accountants and labels. Axl's number crunchers I'm sure told him it was a good idea to make this deal, and the money-grubbers are more than likely behind this mixup. Or some smartass lawyer who thinks he's found a loophole.

Or it's S/D posturing to help their initial suit.

Does this fuck things up for CD? Maybe.

Do I care about lawsuits in this band anymore? No.

I've seen zero that had any merit, besides the attempt to block the GH CD which I'll never buy.

[Ali]

Another page into the tragic saga of GNR.  Axl never runs out ways to disappoint his fans.  I hope someday all this bullshit ends and we get a reunion.  When the hell is Axl going to give the fans any good news?  Someone answer me that question, because it is just one disapointment after another.  He is a rock genius, but he has let us down time and time again.

No offense, but I think you're jumping the gun here.  We've only heard Duff and Slash's side, so don't know for certain that Axl did anything wrong and/or deliberately malicous towards them.

Sanctuary and/or Axl will have to present their side of things sooner or later.  After they do that, then everyone can give a fully informed opinion on the case.

I agree with the notion that it is tragic.  Regardless of where culpability lies, this is a sad thing.

Ali

[Scabbie]

Its fucked up when a website about your favorite band becomes a legal forum.  The majority (including MTV) would not give 2 shits about any of this if CD was released.

I'd like to think Axl was creating a stir in order to prepare for a massive comeback, but I accept in reality thats unlikely.

[madagas]

Kyrie, nice post pure posturing on the part of Slash and Duff...upping the ante  on Mr. Rose a few months before the first case goes to trial. Good timing. Any coincidence that rumors have been alluding to a Nov release date for Chinese and now this lawsuit comes a few months before? TURNING UP THE HEAT.

[chineseblues]

thanks go out to BigBoss at sp1at for posting this:

Office: Western Division - Los Angeles
Filed: 08/17/2005
Jury Demand: Plaintiff
Demand:
Nature of Suit: 820
Cause: 17:0101 Copyright Infringement
Jurisdiction: Federal Question
Disposition:
County: Los Angeles
Terminated:
Origin: 1
Reopened:

Lead Case: None
Related Case: None Other Court Case: None
Def Custody Status:
Flags: (PLAx), AO279, DISCOVERY

Plaintiff Saul Hudson represented by Tiffany Hofeldt Phone: 310-788-4400

Plaintiff Saul Hudson represented by Glendon W Miskel Phone: 415-332-0222

Plaintiff Saul Hudson represented by Zia F Modabber Phone: 310-788-4400

Plaintiff Saul Hudson represented by Joel R Weiner Phone: 310-788-4400
Email: joel.weiner@kmzr.com

Plaintiff Michael McKagan represented by Tiffany Hofeldt Phone: 310-788-4400

Plaintiff Michael McKagan represented by Glendon W Miskel Phone: 415-332-0222

Plaintiff Michael McKagan represented by Zia F Modabber Phone: 310-788-4400

Plaintiff Michael McKagan represented by Joel R Weiner Phone: 310-788-4400
Email: joel.weiner@kmzr.com

Plaintiff Guns N Roses represented by Tiffany Hofeldt Phone: 310-788-4400

Plaintiff Guns N Roses represented by Glendon W Miskel Phone: 415-332-0222

Plaintiff Guns N Roses represented by Zia F Modabber Phone: 310-788-4400

Plaintiff Guns N Roses represented by Joel R Weiner Phone: 310-788-4400
Email: joel.weiner@kmzr.com

Defendant William Bailey
Defendant Black Frog Music
Defendant Kobalt Music Publishing America Inc
Defendant Kobalt Music Services America Inc
Defendant Kobalt Songs Music Publishing
Defendant Does

----------------------------------------------------------------------------


08/17/2005 1 COMPLAINT against defendants William Bailey, Black Frog Music, Kobalt Music Publishing America Inc, Kobalt Music Services America Inc, Kobalt Songs Music Publishing.(Filing fee $ 250) Jury Demanded. , filed by plaintiffs Guns N Roses, Saul Hudson, Michael McKagan.(rrey, ) (Entered: 08/19/2005)

08/17/2005 20 Day Summons Issued re Complaint - (Discovery)[1] as to William Bailey, Black Frog Music, Kobalt Music Publishing America Inc, Kobalt Music Services America Inc, Kobalt Songs Music Publishing. (rrey, ) (Entered: 08/19/2005)

08/17/2005 2 CERTIFICATION AND NOTICE of Interested Parties filed by Plaintiffs Guns N Roses, Saul Hudson, Michael McKagan. (rrey, ) (Entered: 08/19/2005)

08/17/2005 REPORT ON THE FILING OF AN ACTION REGARDING COPYRIGHT (cc: form mailed to Washington, D.C.) (Opening) (rrey, ) (Entered: 08/19/2005)

08/17/2005 FAX number for Attorney Tiffany Hofeldt, Zia F Modabber, Joel R Weiner is 310-788-4471. (rrey, ) (Entered: 08/19/2005)

08/18/2005 3 STANDING ORDER by Judge Consuelo B. Marshall. Read This Order Carefully. It Controls Procedures Used in This Case.(pbap, ) (Entered: 08/22/2005)

-------------------------------------------------

As you can see Slash and Duff are suing under the gnr name. Now as we all know Axl owns the name, so why are try suing under it?

[killingvector]

Maybe as part of the theory that S and D are the old partnership and Axl is a third party acting as if he were a member. This seems to be an extension of the first lawsuit: if S and D win in November, the axe will fall in this case because axl wouldn't have the right to any control over the old catalog.


btw, the members of Black Frog Music are surpising.

"Included in the lawsuit are Black Frog, a company allegedly consisting of Del James, members of the Lebeis family and Axl Rose himself."----Splat

It is Del, Ax, and Beta.

[gigger]

Maybe as part of the theory that S and D are the old partnership and Axl is a third party acting as if he were a member. This seems to be an extension of the first lawsuit: if S and D win in November, the axe will fall in this case because axl wouldn't have the right to any control over the old catalog.


btw, the list for the members of Black Frog Music are surpisingly

Included in the lawsuit are Black Frog, a company allegedly consisting of Del James, members of the Lebeis family and Axl Rose himself.

It is Del, Ax, and Beta.

Axl owns Black Frog. It's just him and his buddies who "work" for it.

It's been around for a while but no-one mentions it as it hasn't been significant.

[anythinggoes]

sorry for my ignorance but where is Izzy in all this did he not write a lot of the songs etc surely he gets royalties too

[killingvector]

I believe he gets writing royalties but since he left the band, i.e. the partnership, he is not entitled to the publishing royalties.  Since this dispute is over the publishing of the old catalog, only those who are part of the partnership of the old band, which S and D contend is only them, could have a vote in selling or moving the publishing arm of the band to some other group. I was under the impression that Axl sold HIS publishing rights only; the fact that Black Frog Music presides over the distribution of  S and D's royalties is a bit disconcerting.