Slash The Liar?

[Bridge]

I have one comment I must add to the "Does Axl take the stage late" discussion.

Most major venues (excluding clubs) in the U.S. have a curfew of 11 p.m.? This is for insurance reasons, insurance won't cover a venue if a band plays past 11 p.m.?

A typical Axl show on the 2002 tour was what, about two hours long?? ok, so if Axl takes the stage at 10:30 p.m. and plays a standard two hour show, that means he and his band leave the stage at 12:30 a.m., which is 90 minutes past the curfew.

So on that basis, Yes, I would say that Axl does indeed go on late, and it's inexcusable whether it's expected or not.? In addition to insurance provisions, the curfew also assures fans a show in a timely manner, and by violating the curfew, Axl is denying that of the fans.

I don't know if Axl was fined during the 2002 tour or not, but during the UYI tour, GNR was paying hundreds of thousands of dollars in curfew violation fees because Axl couldn't take the stage on time.

The fan outcry about Axl's tardiness during the UYI tour was so massive that Rolling Stone addressed the issue in an interview with Axl.? They asked him why he insisted on taking the stage so late, and he gave some smarmy response like "If they were spending that time getting laid, they wouldn't care about how late it was."

[Mikkamakka]

St. Louis - 14 years ago.
Montreal - 13 years ago.

What do people still whine about? Those two concerts!


Did anything else piss you off in 1991-1992 that you still complain about? Maybe you didn't get the toy you wanted with your Happy Meal back in the summer of 1991?


You don't seem to understand, the same things that makes Axl an asshole in your eyes is what makes him the Axl who writes the songs you like listening to. It seems like it's really cool to have a band that doesn't do what they're told until a certain point. They should be dangerous as long as it doesn't involve being late to a concert you're attending. Telling a fan to fuck off because he's trying to interrupt the show is cool as long as it doesn't happen at your show etc etc.


If you did your homework, you'd know that Axl is always late. I thought the people here were fans and they knew that. Turns out I was wrong. Oh, and Axl's not the only one who has a problem with that. There are "normal" people who are never on time as well! Those assholes!


By reading the comments here, it seems like you guys wish GN'R would've been just another 80s hair band who goes on stage on time and never pisses anybody off in any way.





/jarmo

Please, Jarmo... You can't be serious.  GN'R wouldn't have been another 80s hair metal band if Axl had chosen to go on stage on time.

BTW I agree that it should have been clear to the fans that every great singer in the history was an asshole. Even Axl, even Scot Weiland. Even Lennon etc. But there is a little difference in how they handled their own fans.

[jarmo]

Please, Jarmo... You can't be serious. GN'R wouldn't have been another 80s hair metal band if Axl had chosen to go on stage on time.

You didn't read the whole sentence....

I didn't say Axl going on stage on time would make them into Winger. But it seems like some people here would want GN'R to be more like Winger! 



/jarmo

[jimmythegent]

St. Louis - 14 years ago.
Montreal - 13 years ago.

What do people still whine about? Those two concerts!


Did anything else piss you off in 1991-1992 that you still complain about? Maybe you didn't get the toy you wanted with your Happy Meal back in the summer of 1991?


You don't seem to understand, the same things that makes Axl an asshole in your eyes is what makes him the Axl who writes the songs you like listening to. It seems like it's really cool to have a band that doesn't do what they're told until a certain point. They should be dangerous as long as it doesn't involve being late to a concert you're attending. Telling a fan to fuck off because he's trying to interrupt the show is cool as long as it doesn't happen at your show etc etc.


If you did your homework, you'd know that Axl is always late. I thought the people here were fans and they knew that. Turns out I was wrong. Oh, and Axl's not the only one who has a problem with that. There are "normal" people who are never on time as well! Those assholes!


By reading the comments here, it seems like you guys wish GN'R would've been just another 80s hair band who goes on stage on time and never pisses anybody off in any way.





/jarmo

with respect jarmo, thats just plain nonsense i'm afraid

no one is disputing the fact that Axl is regularly late.

The point I was trying to make is that he was not always late, so any sensible fan is not going to turn up late and just assume Axl will have another late show will he?

Therefor, Axl is making his fans wait regardless,

Im not sure what your point of the 80s hair band was? we all love dangerous Axl/GNR yes, that doesnt mean that every thing he's done is to be blindly commended.

For instance, I thought his whole badass attitude on One in a million was topical and ultimately a cool artistic statement (not to say I agree with those sentiments, but I thought the controversy it caused was indicative of what Axl was trying to address).

However, I didnt find him covering Look at your game girl at all badass or cool. It seemed lame, contrived and ultimately a concerted attempt to court controversy.

Do you see the point Im making?

Yes, we all admire Axls neurotic, unique approach to his position, that is part of what makes him such an enigma. However, this doesn't automatically spare him from all critisism when he does something lame and disrespectful to his fans.

[jarmo]

The point I was trying to make is that he was not always late, so any sensible fan is not going to turn up late and just assume Axl will have another late show will he?

I don't know what fans assume or not.

Reading all these whining about Axl not doing this, being late, doing that makes me wonder what you want from him?

Maybe I'm one of the few people who doesn't get upset if he doesn't release albums every 3-5-7 years or if he turns up late at shows...

Yeah, it'd be really conveniant if Axl started his shows at 9PM and ended in time so that people could take the last train home. It'd be really conveniant if he kept an online blog where he told us what he did every day so that we could discuss his breakfast instead of going throught the same recycled topics like this one.


I don't understand your point. He's late sometimes? So the whining wasn't about him being late too often?

Im not sure what your point of the 80s hair band was? we all love dangerous Axl/GNR yes, that doesnt mean that every thing he's done is to be blindly commended.

It's not that difficult to understand what I meant, you said the same thing yourself:

Yes, we all admire Axls neurotic, unique approach to his position, that is part of what makes him such an enigma.

However, this doesn't automatically spare him from all critisism when he does something lame and disrespectful to his fans.

A lot of people like to complain about everything, some have seem to forgotten there's a thing called constructive criticizm.

Anyway, why are you whining about Axl in the VR section? This is supposed to be about Slash being a liar isn't it?




/jarmo

[jimmythegent]

There you go again, instead of answering a simple question you resport to a personal attack, which inturn shows you know? you have lost and cant come up with a legit answer good work mate?

jeez.. lighten up a little Dave
bitter and defeated is never a good look for you - try to be a bit more humble in defeat next time please. thanks

[dave-gnfnr2k]

There you go again, instead of answering a simple question you resport to a personal attack, which inturn shows you know? you have lost and cant come up with a legit answer good work mate?

jeez.. lighten up a little Dave
bitter and defeated is never a good look for you - try to be a bit more humble in defeat next time please. thanks

How am I better or defeated? Have you even read what Me, JV or Jarmo have said to you? I guess not. T  You have been owned in this thread, who are you trying to fool? he only person you are fooling by comments is yourself.

[Booker Floyd]

Yeah, it'd be really conveniant if Axl started his shows at 9PM and ended in time so that people could take the last train home. It'd be really conveniant if he kept an online blog where he told us what he did every day so that we could discuss his breakfast instead of going throught the same recycled topics like this one.

Thats quite a leap youve made there. ?Youre making up extreme hypotheticals instead of discussing realistic possibilities, and it doesnt make much sense. ?Did anybody say he should write a blog, or that we should discuss his breakfast? ?And I can safely assume that youll respond by telling me that youre exaggerating, but are people on here asking for anything remotely close to that to warrant such an implication? ?I think a lot of people would like, perhaps, one update within 18 months. ?Thats the reality, and you exaggerating to the extent of "an online blog" certainly doesnt add to any point youre trying to make. ?

The same goes for the "hair band" comparision.  Whats the connection?  Are hair bands punctual while every other band or artist is late?

This is supposed to be about Slash being a liar isn't it?

 

[jarmo]

Youre making up extreme hypotheticals instead of discussing realistic possibilities

Yeah, because you seem to take everything so seriously.

 

The same goes for the "hair band" comparision.? Whats the connection?? Are hair bands punctual while every other band or artist is late?

No idea. They're just everything GN'R were supposed to be against.

That's the "connection".


You don't like the color black, so you make it a little brighter and then it's grey. Which means it's not black anymore.


Since this is the VR section and that band has said they're unpredictable on a few occasions, isn't Axl also unpredictable?

It's supposed to be a good thing isn't it?

 


/jarmo

[jimmythegent]

There you go again, instead of answering a simple question you resport to a personal attack, which inturn shows you know? you have lost and cant come up with a legit answer good work mate?

jeez.. lighten up a little Dave
bitter and defeated is never a good look for you - try to be a bit more humble in defeat next time please. thanks

How am I better or defeated? Have you even read what Me, JV or Jarmo have said to you? I guess not. T? You have been owned in this thread, who are you trying to fool? he only person you are fooling by comments is yourself.

owned? I think not my boy - just because a couple of blind Axl-zealots have jumped all over statements ive made that the rationally thinking people of the world would agree with does not the winning of an argument maketh.

[jimmythegent]

This is going to be my last word on the topic

-Why am I having another post on it? Because various people have tryed to mix things up, purposefully misrepresent me and then bring in innane examples such as hair metal and online blogs about breakfast.

-In this thread someone brought up Axls lateness and went from there. Yes I know it has nothing to do with Slash supposedly 'lying'?  Im not sure who brought it up and why, but it happened.

-KV in one of his posts offered a rationale on Axls behalf stating that people attending Axls shows should do some research on the net before they attend and that way they should know that Axl is likely to be late.

- I posted that I found this rationale to be lame, regardless of the fact that Axl is known to be late. I also proposed the view that Axl is sometimes on time, so there isnt the consistency that some were suggesting. If a fan was to turn up late assuming Axl would take the stage late, and Axl decided to be on time - the fan would miss the show and vice versa.

- KV pulled it back to the question of honesty in line with the thread title.

- As food for thought (even though the initial point was not exclusive to the thread and this was stated categorically at the time), I offered the notion that it was in a sense a dishonest transaction between fan and performer to keep them guessing and put them in a situation where they could miss the show or  somehow be  put out.

- KV stated that the other night the Stones kept him waiting as long as GNR had. Later Jarmo stated that VR had kept him waiting. I think both of them should accept that there is a big difference between being late once or twice and being late about 75% of the time.

- davegnfnr2k joined the party and inevitably the debate degenerated into farce.

- I dont know what hair metal and online blogs about breakfast have to do with any of this. but I will say that the points I have made are all valid ones

[killingvector]

This is going to be my last word on the topic

-Why am I having another post on it? Because various people have tryed to mix things up, purposefully misrepresent me and then bring in innane examples such as hair metal and online blogs about breakfast.

-In this thread someone brought up Axls lateness and went from there. Yes I know it has nothing to do with Slash supposedly 'lying'    Im not sure who brought it up and why, but it happened.

-KV in one of his posts offered a rationale on Axls behalf stating that people attending Axls shows should do some research on the net before they attend and that way they should know that Axl is likely to be late.

- I posted that I found this rationale to be lame, regardless of the fact that Axl is known to be late. I also proposed the view that Axl is sometimes on time, so there isnt the consistency that some were suggesting. If a fan was to turn up late assuming Axl would take the stage late, and Axl decided to be on time - the fan would miss the show and vice versa.

- KV pulled it back to the question of honesty in line with the thread title.

- As food for thought (even though the initial point was not exclusive to the thread and this was stated categorically at the time), I offered the notion that it was in a sense a dishonest transaction between fan and performer to keep them guessing and put them in a situation where they could miss the show or  somehow be  put out.

- KV stated that the other night the Stones kept him waiting as long as GNR had. Later Jarmo stated that VR had kept him waiting. I think both of them should accept that there is a big difference between being late once or twice and being late about 75% of the time.

- davegnfnr2k joined the party and inevitably the debate degenerated into farce.

- I dont know what hair metal and online blogs about breakfast have to do with any of this. but I will say that the points I have made are all valid ones

The delay with the Rolling Stone was standard for the entire tour. It wasn't once or twice, but their whole tour. This isn't a question of one or two exceptions.

And just because you think researching a show is lame, doesnt make it so. If i had kids and was going to a rock show, I would damn well find out when the band hit the stage and how long the show was, jus so I could prepare the babysitter. It is very common to find out these sort of things when time is important.

[GNRisSLASH]

St. Louis - 14 years ago.
Montreal - 13 years ago.

What do people still whine about? Those two concerts!


Did anything else piss you off in 1991-1992 that you still complain about? Maybe you didn't get the toy you wanted with your Happy Meal back in the summer of 1991?


You don't seem to understand, the same things that makes Axl an asshole in your eyes is what makes him the Axl who writes the songs you like listening to. It seems like it's really cool to have a band that doesn't do what they're told until a certain point. They should be dangerous as long as it doesn't involve being late to a concert you're attending. Telling a fan to fuck off because he's trying to interrupt the show is cool as long as it doesn't happen at your show etc etc.


If you did your homework, you'd know that Axl is always late. I thought the people here were fans and they knew that. Turns out I was wrong. Oh, and Axl's not the only one who has a problem with that. There are "normal" people who are never on time as well! Those assholes!


By reading the comments here, it seems like you guys wish GN'R would've been just another 80s hair band who goes on stage on time and never pisses anybody off in any way.


/jarmo

Jarmo - you seem to resort to sarcasm in an attempt to make a point. Unfortunately it doesn't work here at all.  The simple fact remains - Axl Rose is notorious for taking the stage late. He is notorious for walking off stage when things aren't just perfect for him. He is notorious for no showing.  This is not 'dangerous' behavior.  This is BULLSHIT behavior.  You don't do that to your fans time and again. You don't walk off stage because you don't feel like singing that night. You don't decide last minute to not show up for a gig and then not issue any statement.  You don't do these things time and again.  How the fuck can people (no reason to name names) continually excuse whatever Axl does? I figured the Vancouver debacle would've been enough to finally open some people's eyes. Nope.  Then I figured Philly was the final straw. Nope. You can say you love his singing. tell me he can write great songs. Tell me he is one of the best lead singers of all time. But don't defend his lousy behavior to his fans.  Stop with the lame excuses for his behavior.  How many fucking former band members, producers, wives, managers, etc. must Axl go through before you finally say "You know, maybe Axl is a pain to work with." 

[GNRisSLASH]

I thought this was about Slash the liar.

VR came on stage around 9:40:ish at one of the shows I saw last January. I guess it makes them assholes?

Has he ever issued a single apology to fans? Ever?

Maybe you have selective memory.

On behalf of Guns N' Roses and myself I apologize to the fans who planned to see us at Rock In Rio - Lisbon.
March 30th, 2004



/jarmo

You got me there, Jarmo.  VR was late one night so that excuses Axl from going on stage late every night, no showing in Vancouver n PHilly, causing riots in Montreal and St louis, canceling a Euro tour, walking off stage in Chicago, at the Meadowlands and who knows how many other places.

And you sure got me with the apology.  After allthe time Axl has fucked over his fans, you dug hard and proved me wrong. You found that one apology. That Axl sure is a saint.

[killingvector]

I thought this was about Slash the liar.

VR came on stage around 9:40:ish at one of the shows I saw last January. I guess it makes them assholes?

Has he ever issued a single apology to fans? Ever?

Maybe you have selective memory.

On behalf of Guns N' Roses and myself I apologize to the fans who planned to see us at Rock In Rio - Lisbon.
March 30th, 2004



/jarmo

You got me there, Jarmo.  VR was late one night so that excuses Axl from going on stage late every night, no showing in Vancouver n PHilly, causing riots in Montreal and St louis, canceling a Euro tour, walking off stage in Chicago, at the Meadowlands and who knows how many other places.

And you sure got me with the apology.  After allthe time Axl has fucked over his fans, you dug hard and proved me wrong. You found that one apology. That Axl sure is a saint.

Obviously you stuck it out and remained a fan. What kept you going since Axl mistreated YOU so badly?

[jarmo]

Defending him? No.

But I've accepted that it's the way he is instead of spending years whining about "how can Axl be such an asshole?".

After allthe time Axl has fucked over his fans, you dug hard and proved me wrong. You found that one apology. That Axl sure is a saint.

Actually, it wasn't that hard since it's the latest statement from Axl and also the last show they've cancelled.

But I guess the idea of me having to look for it makes your idea of Axl never apologizing more credible...





/jarmo

[pilferk]

Please, killingvector, who are you trying to kid?? We all know the reason for the Vancouver and Philly riots...and its Axl.? If Axl wanted to play those shows he would have.?

Ya know, Axl is no angel, but...

Vancouver, the guy was IN THE AIR.  His flight was late due to the crappy weather in CA.  You can argue that he should have left earlier (the day before) I suppose, but...we have no idea what commitments the guy had in LA.

Philly....nobody knows what the fuck happened.  Maybe (probably) it was Axl.  But it's awful tough to bank on it.  I mean....Bucket (or his illness, rather) was responsible for the cancelling of some Euro shows, if I remember correctly.  Without having the full story, it's irresponsible to lay the blame entirely at Axl's feet.

[pilferk]

I have one comment I must add to the "Does Axl take the stage late" discussion.

Most major venues (excluding clubs) in the U.S. have a curfew of 11 p.m.? This is for insurance reasons, insurance won't cover a venue if a band plays past 11 p.m.?

A typical Axl show on the 2002 tour was what, about two hours long?? ok, so if Axl takes the stage at 10:30 p.m. and plays a standard two hour show, that means he and his band leave the stage at 12:30 a.m., which is 90 minutes past the curfew.

So on that basis, Yes, I would say that Axl does indeed go on late, and it's inexcusable whether it's expected or not.? In addition to insurance provisions, the curfew also assures fans a show in a timely manner, and by violating the curfew, Axl is denying that of the fans.

I don't know if Axl was fined during the 2002 tour or not, but during the UYI tour, GNR was paying hundreds of thousands of dollars in curfew violation fees because Axl couldn't take the stage on time.

The fan outcry about Axl's tardiness during the UYI tour was so massive that Rolling Stone addressed the issue in an interview with Axl.? They asked him why he insisted on taking the stage so late, and he gave some smarmy response like "If they were spending that time getting laid, they wouldn't care about how late it was."

Urban legend, FYI.

MOST venues (in the US, at least) do not have an 11 PM curfew...or at least not in the sense you're thinking.

SOME (a very small number) have a hard wired curfew built in by the municipality (the city), but they're few and far between, and it's later than 11 PM (usuall midnight, or 12:30-ish) and even that is flexible to some extent (sporting events going OT, etc).? In those places, there CAN be, at the municipalities discretion, a fine levied.

What MOST venues DO have is a clause in the performers contract that says if the show goes past a certain time, there is some sort of additional monies due the facility (it covers Overtime and other facility expenses, including the extension of the facilities insurance on the event, as well as operational expenses like power, etc).? That time is standard but negotiable in every contract with every promoter/performer/etc..? And the money is not astronomical, even if the performer decides to go over.? It's not like it's a "fine", in the sense that it's illegal, in most places.

Just to flavor the discussion....

[pilferk]

Just one small comment:

Slash said there were vocals on only a "few" songs.  I saw this mentioned before, and then debated since there is argument that there is not enough info to prove he is wrong.

1) Chinese Democracy
2) The Blues
3) Riyhad and the Bedouins
4) Silkworms
5) Madagascar
6) IRS

That's more than a few songs that WE'VE heard.

In addition, there were confirmed media reports that Axl played C.D. in that strip club in Vegas...confirmed by management.

We've also heard reports from many other sources (Brian May, Moby, even the old Rolling Stone article) citing other material with various comments.

Now, I don't think Slash lied, per se.  I think he probably got ahold of some bad information and repeated it....and that's probably an interpretation open to debate.  But, either way, I think there's a pretty vast amount of evidence to support the fact that what Slash said isn't true.

[Bridge]

And the money is not astronomical, even if the performer decides to go over.  It's not like it's a "fine", in the sense that it's illegal, in most places.

Tom Zutaut confirmed that the band was paying (as I said) hundreds of thousands of dollars in curfew violation fees during the UYI tour.  That doesn't sound like it could be the result of the mild "contractual clauses" you're talking about.

1) Chinese Democracy
2) The Blues
3) Riyhad and the Bedouins
4) Silkworms
5) Madagascar
6) IRS

That's more than a few songs that WE'VE heard.

That example doesn't hold water.  just because 5 of those 6 songs have been performed live does not mean they've been completed in the studio.