WHO WOULD JESUS KILL?

[kathryn2662]

But in all your defense you threw at me saying I dont know your story, can you honestly say that you 100% had a true experience with Jesus, I dont know if you really know what an experience is or not,  if you arent sure and if you have to think about it, then you havent, it's one of those things where you KNOW, it's something more than feeling the love of God and more than the high feeling you get as a christian and being a devoted child of God and Him back to you, it's way more than that, because your defense was entitled but really have you?  Dont answer that on here, and dont answer me outloud, dont do that AT ALL, just ask yourself inside your head and reply only to yourself.  I say that, and think, you well you know, I hope that you have, i think it would be great if you proved me that you have and proved me wrong in a sense had a true and total experience, and I would love to know why you turned back from it, I dont know your heart, maybe there is a part that is still attatched to Him that you are denying to yourself and to the world and to God, maybe there is still apart of your heart that longs for Him that you tell that voice to shut up,  I dont know that- only you and God do.  I wasnt telling you, if I did Im sorry and that was wrong, that it was 100% impossible for YOU to have had an experience, but Im saying in general as for all humans, when you have an experience there is still a part of you that is tied and bound into that love with God.  And on another note, not talking about the experience with Jesus but just christianity in general- the moment you ask Jesus to come into your heart, there is a divine connection that no man- not even yourself by choice can break, He is in there forever whether you choose to acknowledge it or not, He has promised to stay there for all eternity whether you like it or not, whether you activate it or not, He's there for you and He's in your heart. But think about this, maybe you could humble yourself enough to tell your story and what happened a christian you some what trust, not in a debate, all christians arent out to destroy the sinners, I grow in a church who welcome anyone and everyone, all we want to do is help them where they feel lost and confused, maybe if you and people like you spoke in confidence with someone it could help those christians who are willing to be helped by a sinner, to help get in their perspective and see why they chose to become why they are, and hey you never know- they might have answers for you.  In my oppinion, as a christian who wants to reach out to people, I would love to talk to non-believers, as a person, not as spiritual battling, and to help me see other views, maybe answer qusetions for them they dont have answers to, and maybe for them to open my mind and let me see why they think things are and how things work, the only true way to help someone and Im not nessicarily talking about spirituality Im talking about life itself, is to open up and listen to that others person OWN story, their own individual life story, not putting them in a category and shoving your point of way in their face and saying "this is how it is, this is how it's gonna be, here it all is, now good luck", it's not like that, it's taking their individual life into consideration and their individual story and talking to them about it, and helping them get through that if they allow it, to work through the problems step by step, taking a little in and taking a little out, coming to that person stripped down of spiritual shouts and demands, but coming to them as just a person who wants to help.  So many churches out there are so afraid that they are going to be like the world, that they disconnect themselves from it, and bulid up these spirtitual walls from the world and only shout from behind them, so afraid the world will conform them and they look down on the world from behind those walls.  That's not how it should be.  The church should be in there, apart of this world as the head not the tail, reaching out to others on a one on one basis, to not curse the darkness but light the candle.  There are so many churches who for example, lets say are on a platform, and they shout to the people below them with judgment and attitude like "you shouldnt be down there, you should be up here, this is the right way you, you live the wrong way,  we're up here and this is the only place you should be", that is totaly wrong and not how God is at all.  What church and christians are supposed to about, is coming off that platform, walking themselves down below, taking that other person hand and hand heart to heart, and walk with them through that, and to stay by their side helping them up back to where you came down from to help them.  Not because we think we are right and holy for being up their, but because we know how wonderful and much is has impacted our lives, and our passion are people and our love is people, that we want nothing more than give you a chance to experience it, so we bring ourselves down to individually help a person.  You see the difference?  But you cant help someone if they dont want to be helped, and if you dont ever get in connection with people from the "other side" then niether will learn from eachother.  People need to stop building walls up afraid they will turn into the other, and start getting into agreement and learn from eachother.  You dont have to reply back to my post if it's just going to turn into another debate, Im not here to debate with anyone, and point out why I think certain things are right, I hate that, and that's not the kind of christian I am or want to be, and I dont mean to debate my beliefs so it's made me feel uneasy posting things because Im not the kind of christian who shouts and forces my beliefs, Im about helping people- not forcing them to change, help is not telling your beliefs and say "if you wanna get better, then do it my way, Im gonna shove this down your throat, and good luck with life" not ever connecting with that person and helping them step by step.  So if you reply back debating, Im not gonna reply back unless I feel the need to, otherwise you picked the wrong christian to debate with.  You cant change the world by debating and declaring beliefs, and Im not about to start that now, it does no good and it only draws people away.

[kathryn2662]

But you are still telling me that my beliefs are wrong, because yes in my belief I can say that I FACTUALLY and TRUTHFULLY by all the definitions out of man's dictionary say that I know Jesus, what the afterlife is and holds, and I can PROVE Him as He has proven and made Himself real to me. 

Then do it.

You realize you've completely gone off the deep end now and there is no turning back.  if you had just conceded that you indeed had a set of beliefs that you BELIEVED were true, you wouldve been fine.  But sitting there claiming you can PROVE it beyond a shadow of a doubt lands you in some dire straights.

I bet you can't.  I bet every bit of "proof" you can offer, there is not one bit of it which can be proven as truth.  Not a shred.  And keep in mind that I don't have to disprove  anything you say.  In order for it to be true, you've got to prove it with hard evidence with no room, and I mean NO ROOM, for debate.  If I can rationally contradict anything you say, it isn't true.

So let's hear what proof you have.  You made that bold proclamation, so let's see you back it up.

I said IN MY BELIEFS, I can prove, in my beliefs it is truth, it is real, it is fact.  You on ther other hand dont think that, so my proof and my truth wont be real to you because you dont allow Jesus to become real to you.  When you experience Him, He makes Himself real to you, He reveals Himself to you, all truths and promises and reveals answers and fact, but if you dont believe in that then you wont see.  You are given a spiritual set of eyes, to see the unseen and hear the unheard, I cant show you anything if you have your eyes closed to it.  Your eyes see things differently than me.   If you dont hold the same belief, you will never see what I see, and you will never believe if I had proof sitting right in my hands, you wouldnt see it.  Do you get what Im saying here?  I can prove it till Im blue in the face, but if you arent receptive to what Im saying and believing, and if you arent on the same page as me then you arent gonna see it, you arent gonna hear it, you arent gonna feel it.  But not to say that that isnt possible, because so many have come to know God by witnessing God reveals Himself through act, through working into peoples lives, by witnessing miracles and watching others be taken over by the Holy Spirit.

[Tied-Up]

But you are still telling me that my beliefs are wrong, because yes in my belief I can say that I FACTUALLY and TRUTHFULLY by all the definitions out of man's dictionary say that I know Jesus, what the afterlife is and holds, and I can PROVE Him as He has proven and made Himself real to me. ?Yes, in your point of view, and in the world's point of view, I can see how you think it's not real proof or truth, but in MY BELIEFS it is, an who are you to tell me that my belief is wrong. ?I honestly 100% KNOW FOR FACT that my God is real, I have a living breathing Savior who is risen and alive and in my life daily and has shown and made Himself real to me through His actions, words, love, and miracles. ?He talks to me daily as I talk to Him, He provides breakthroughs and mircales for me and others I witness, I see Him move through other people's lives, I feel His presence that He makes real, and I feel and see His truth, in my beliefs that is fact, in my belief it is proof.

Rocket Queen: ?BELIEF does not equal FACT. ?Just because you believe something, does not make it fact. ? ?You can only honestly say that you know for 100% what you believe is real to you... there is no factual evidence that can support your argument. ?An appeal to belief does not make it so.

Likewise, BELIEF does not make something a FACT. ? I can believe that the world is flat, but we all know it to be false. ?I can believe it with all my heart, my soul, my presence, and I can see it's flatness in other people and how it affects their lives, but, that doesn't make it any more a fact.

Furthermore, you contend that others are being condesending to you, without acknowleging that you are being condesending towards others, which makes you just as much a hypocrite as you are accusing others of being.

?

That's not called being contradictory, how you are looking at my words would be considered hypocrisy, not a contradiction. ?Because Im not telling you that your experiences are wrong by saying that something is 100% impossible, I never said that you werent a christian before, I never said that you werent a strong and powerful christian, I believe that you were, I believe that it's possible, but being a powerful big christian is something completely different than having an experience with Jesus where He works and moves through you to where you see what the purpose and meaning of life is which is to out of Love give your own life to Him with no asking to return it back, it's when His purpose becomes your purpose, where you live your life to do the things of God's purpose, that doesnt mean living holy and living sinless, it means getting Godly wisdom (which isnt knowing a bunch of facts, Godly wisdom is knowing God's wisdom and words and applying that to your life) and by being empowered by God to do His will, ....... (blah blah blah)

by saying something is 100% impossible, you are disregarding my experiences. ?Do you not see that? ?Do you not see that as a contridiction to what you've said? ?100% impossible and "Wrong" in this instance mean exactly the same thing, because by saying you are right, the implication is that others are wrong, because you fail to acknowledge that these are your beliefs, and instead you state them as unequivocal truth. ?You fail to see the difference between truth and belief, and therefore, your words become condescending to those that may have a different viewpoint. ?

I did have a true experience with what I BELIEVED at the time to be with jesus. ?I believed it so strongly that I knew for TRUTH everything and my Truth was absolute without question. ?

But see, I have since come to realize that belief is different than truth. ?That doesn't make me right, it doesn't make anyone 'right' or 'wrong' ... it just means that I now understand the difference between what is a belief, and what is a truth. ?

Truth is something you can prove with cold, hard evidence, FACTUAL evidence, not belief, but something that is tangibly proven beyond the shadow of a doubt. ?

Belief is something that you believe to be true within yourself, based on your own, individual experiences, and applicable to your own life. ?

I said IN MY BELIEFS, I can prove, in my beliefs it is truth, it is real, it is fact. You on ther other hand dont think that, so my proof and my truth wont be real to you because you dont allow Jesus to become real to you.

It is impossible to prove something doesn't exist.? Therefore, the burden of proof sits with you, Rocket Queen, to provide your proof.? If you cannot provide factual proof, then you can only either a) continue to argue without merit, or b) concede that you BELIEVE but do not have factual evidence other than your own personal BELIEF of these truths.

[SLCPUNK]

If you are going to hold the ten commandments as truth, then you must also hold slavery and murder as truths also? Since they are rampant in the old testament.

What I mean is that I don't see how you can say "I'll believe this, but I wont believe that". ?How can you sit and just decide which part of the bible to take seriously? ?Any diehard christian will tell you you can't do that with new testament, so why should it be done with the old?

I agree, you can't take something and only apply parts that you like. Although most everybody does this with the bible, mainly because it contradicts itself.

[kathryn2662]

But you are still telling me that my beliefs are wrong, because yes in my belief I can say that I FACTUALLY and TRUTHFULLY by all the definitions out of man's dictionary say that I know Jesus, what the afterlife is and holds, and I can PROVE Him as He has proven and made Himself real to me. ?Yes, in your point of view, and in the world's point of view, I can see how you think it's not real proof or truth, but in MY BELIEFS it is, an who are you to tell me that my belief is wrong. ?I honestly 100% KNOW FOR FACT that my God is real, I have a living breathing Savior who is risen and alive and in my life daily and has shown and made Himself real to me through His actions, words, love, and miracles. ?He talks to me daily as I talk to Him, He provides breakthroughs and mircales for me and others I witness, I see Him move through other people's lives, I feel His presence that He makes real, and I feel and see His truth, in my beliefs that is fact, in my belief it is proof.

Rocket Queen: ?BELIEF does not equal FACT. ?Just because you believe something, does not make it fact. ? ?You can only honestly say that you know for 100% what you believe is real to you... there is no factual evidence that can support your argument. ?An appeal to belief does not make it so.

Likewise, BELIEF does not make something a FACT. ? I can believe that the world is flat, but we all know it to be false. ?I can believe it with all my heart, my soul, my presence, and I can see it's flatness in other people and how it affects their lives, but, that doesn't make it any more a fact.

Furthermore, you contend that others are being condesending to you, without acknowleging that you are being condesending towards others, which makes you just as much a hypocrite as you are accusing others of being.

?

That's not called being contradictory, how you are looking at my words would be considered hypocrisy, not a contradiction. ?Because Im not telling you that your experiences are wrong by saying that something is 100% impossible, I never said that you werent a christian before, I never said that you werent a strong and powerful christian, I believe that you were, I believe that it's possible, but being a powerful big christian is something completely different than having an experience with Jesus where He works and moves through you to where you see what the purpose and meaning of life is which is to out of Love give your own life to Him with no asking to return it back, it's when His purpose becomes your purpose, where you live your life to do the things of God's purpose, that doesnt mean living holy and living sinless, it means getting Godly wisdom (which isnt knowing a bunch of facts, Godly wisdom is knowing God's wisdom and words and applying that to your life) and by being empowered by God to do His will, ....... (blah blah blah)

by saying something is 100% impossible, you are disregarding my experiences. ?Do you not see that? ?Do you not see that as a contridiction to what you've said? ?100% impossible and "Wrong" in this instance mean exactly the same thing, because by saying you are right, the implication is that others are wrong, because you fail to acknowledge that these are your beliefs, and instead you state them as unequivocal truth. ?You fail to see the difference between truth and belief, and therefore, your words become condescending to those that may have a different viewpoint. ?

I did have a true experience with what I BELIEVED at the time to be with jesus. ?I believed it so strongly that I knew for TRUTH everything and my Truth was absolute without question. ?

But see, I have since come to realize that belief is different than truth. ?That doesn't make me right, it doesn't make anyone 'right' or 'wrong' ... it just means that I now understand the difference between what is a belief, and what is a truth. ?

Truth is something you can prove with cold, hard evidence, FACTUAL evidence, not belief, but something that is tangibly proven beyond the shadow of a doubt. ?

Belief is something that you believe to be true within yourself, based on your own, individual experiences, and applicable to your own life. ?

I said IN MY BELIEFS, I can prove, in my beliefs it is truth, it is real, it is fact. You on ther other hand dont think that, so my proof and my truth wont be real to you because you dont allow Jesus to become real to you.

It is impossible to prove something doesn't exist.? Therefore, the burden of proof sits with you, Rocket Queen, to provide your proof.? If you cannot provide factual proof, then you can only either a) continue to argue without merit, or b) concede that you BELIEVE but do not have factual evidence other than your own personal BELIEF of these truths.

I went on to say more thoughts about the 100% impossible, how it was bad choice of words and explaining. ?Did you not read that?

As for my proof and truth and fact, in my belief, I believe that it's not just christianity fact and truth, but it is real true hardcore fact. ?In my belief, belief does EQUAL fact.
In my oppinion, watching what I have watched, and what I have litteraly PHYSICALLY felt, physically seen, physicaly heard, physicaly experience, is proof and truth to me. ?But like I said, with different eye sets, you wont think it's fact, but I do. ?For example, you can tell a color blind person the light is red, but if he sees it purple because his eye set is different than yours, who are you to say that he is wrong in saying that is factually red, yes to the world it is fact through pigments and scientific such that it is red no matter even if he sees it purple, but to him to the day he dies will believe and can prove it is purple- he can prove it by showing you that purple light, but when he shows you- you will see it as red. ?Does that make more sense now? ?I have physically seen, heard and felt things, that always cant be explained, and that is hardcore evidence, because I physically experienced those things, but just like the man who would physically see the purple light- I can show you it, but you arent going to see it.  I meant the definition of man's dictionary, using that DEFINITION, yes God is real, He is living, He ALIVE.
Im not going to debate that anymore, take it for what it is, do what you will with it.

As for my other posts,  you can believe what you want.  I have witnessed over a thousand people this summer alone make the decision to come to know God, people who before either hated God, never knew Him, or never wanted to, but saw proof and truth through the Holy Spirit in the room and witnessing His work in other's lives.  Every word came straight from MY heart, and yes chrisitans have proven God real to people, your more than welcome to go a little church who holds a congregation of 22,000 people in hilsong austrailia where my pastors came from and they can clearly tell you that it is possible for christians to change lives.  This seriously is my last post, and to end that note, YOU WILL SEE THE WORLD CHANGE, God is raising up a church where I am- and all the ones in correlation who are unstopable and will change the world, He's raising up a generation of youth that are on fire for Christ and have already turned cities upside down, God has a movement coming that dreams big and will change the world.  COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY you WILL see it.  I say that in confidence and bold,  every week when I see hundreds get saved, it motivates me and strengthens my belief in HUGE change and impact in this world and peopels lives.  Cut that up tear it down, but you WILL see it.

You can reply back, Im not.

[Tied-Up]

I went on to say more thoughts about the 100% impossible, how it was bad choice of words and explaining.? Did you not read that?

Yes I read that.? However, you continue to state unequivically that your belief is fact, which only continues to deign those with opposing viewpoints.?

However, since you've chosen to back out of this debate (a wise decision)... I'll assume that you've conceded your position, and simply leave it at that.? ??

[POPmetal]

Here is an example of a contradiction in your post:

Having a true experience with Jesus, is more than beileving in Him and following His word and going to church, I used to do that all my life and never had a 'true' experience until 2 years ago, once you have a true experience- you never turn back, it's 100% impossible, there's a difference between believing in Him and being experienced and baptized in the Holy Spirit by Him. ?

and, in the very same post, you also said:

I can promise that I havent and dont have attitude towards you as well, but it does seem to me that you are condesceding.? And very hipocritcal, because you say that it's self righteous for me to call you wrong, yet you have sit there and tell me Im wrong, saying that my way isnt right or truth.? I never said your way was wrong, I only said my way was right, I focus and word into my belief only, not telling someone else they are wrong.

Now, please explain to me how you AREN'T being condescending in the first example I have up there?? It ISN'T condescending for you to suggest that the things I have experienced in my life are 100% impossible for me to have experienced?? Or, perhaps it isn't condescending for you to assume that I was less of a christian because you obviously have gone through some transformation that I had not gone through.?

You're really reaching here! Rocket Queen explained that she didn't mean to deny that it was impossible for you to have an experience, but even if you interpret it that way, there still isn't any intentional malice in her statement. Compare that with some of your condescending statements:

Both of those gods (new and old testament) suck ass.?

I think that most religion is a farce

[POPmetal]

And speaking of contradictions and hypocrisy.

And there isnt anything wrong with what you believe. ?You misunderstand my position entirely. ?I am not out to piss on your beliefs.

Really? BUT ...

anyway, All religions are man's pathetic way of explaining how the universe got here, no more, no less. ?

Religion is just man's egotistical way of making himself feel important.

Religious folks have always been very self-absorbed, egocentric people who believe that they are god's special little people, and who matter more than anyone or anything else.

Jesus isnt a religion, He's a relationship,

That's utter rubbish.? For starters, don't play that "I have a relationship with jesus" card.? The brutally honest truth is that you wouldnt know jesus christ if you passed him on the street.? So don't start telling me you KNOW jesus.?

[POPmetal]

You can reply back, Im not.

As certain people have said, that is a "wise" choice. But I agree only because of the type of people you're arguing against, not because you're not good at it?

[POPmetal]

but even if you interpret it that way, there still isn't any intentional malice in her statement.

So what?? Condescensions dont have to be intentional.? Ive met a million christians who deign to me about what I should believe and how much better my life would be if I were like THEM.? Is that condescending?? YES.? Are they like that intentionally?? Not really.? It becomes natural, or should I say habitual, when you join the faith.? They feel a need to tell you that you cant know peace or understand jesus or anything of the kind unless you're a card-carrying member of the faith, and that statement is blanket, presumptuous, and yes, condescending, whether the malice was intentional or not.

The point of my post was: don't accuse others of being condescending when you're doing the same thing. That said, there's a world of difference between what you described as condescending and someone just being rude and saying 'your god sucks ass.'

And speaking of contradictions and hypocrisy.

PopMetal, you seriously love to take things WAY out of context.? You do realize she AGREED with my assessment of religion?? Care to flip back a few pages and actually READ the discussion IN CONTEXT?

No?? Okay, I'll quote Rocket Queen for you.....

Religion is was screws up and gives God a bad a name, and dont pin me as a religious person, religion is the enemy.? Jesus isnt a religion, He's a relationship, and you arent a christian by going to church and knowing bible facts, it's about developing and growing in relationship with Jesus.? You're right in saying it's man's egotistical way, religious people go on power trips and they distort the word of God and that's why people dont know the truth, religion is man made, and following God is not following man's made rules of the church and their take on the bible.

Yes Popmetal, it was ROCKET QUEEN who said that, not I.? So your statement hold no water by saying I shit on her beliefs when I shit on religion, because she herself did the same thing.? So my affronts towards religion don't really apply to her based on her own definition of her beliefs.? Please try reading all relevant statements next time, huh?

And as for the last comment, I was speaking the truth.? No christian -- not a single one -- would know jesus if he walked past them on the street.? he could be carrying the damn cross and you still wouldn't realize it was him.? If you noticed him at all, you'd just think it was some actor in a christian stage play.

I personally couldnt give a rip in the high wind what anyone believes, its when they start destroying the english language by inventing new definitions for the words "truth", "fact", and "know" that I get a bit testy.? When you start using those words to describe unproven beliefs, you're promulgating fanaticism.? And thats already a problem in the world, as the topic of this thread shows.

Okay, but I think Christianity is a religion. So you didn't piss on her beliefs, you pissed on mine. Does it make you any less arrogant and egocentric? Qualities that you attribute to Christians, but maybe you need to take a look in the mirror.

And since you claim to be a stickler for context, I would like to point out that you did piss on her beliefs as well in the context of the discussion. Even if she doesn't think Christianity is a religion, she certainly believes that God created the universe. And you said " All religions are man's pathetic way of explaining how the universe got here, no more, no less." Now, unless you are willing to say that because she doesn't think Jesus is a religion, her belief that God created the universe is somehow not "pathetic," you are still pissing on her beliefs, and hence you're still a hypocrite.

As certain people have said, that is a "wise" choice. But I agree only because of the type of people you're arguing against, not because you're not good at it?

You are NOT good at debating when all you can do is blindly claim that your beliefs are TRUTH while having NO proof to back it up and repeatedly refusing to present any.? That's exactly what she has done time and time again.? it's as simple as that.? Because you agree with her beliefs, you won't see it that way, and thats okay.? It doesn't make it less what happened.

Hell, if anything, it's Tied up and I who should have the mentality of "let's quit now because of who we're arguing against", because (as Tied up said), talking to someone who is blinded by religious fanaticism is like fruitlessly banging your head against the wall.?

You can deny it all you want, but she made a very bold claim that she could prove everything she believed as FACT by man's definition of the word.? And when she was called out on that, she ran away and ultimately presented NOTHING.? And no, ranting how god will rule the earth one day does not constitute proof of any kind.? Interesting, because the way she raves about her beliefs being FACTUAL and RIGHT and TRUTH, it sounds to me like we've got another Pat Robertson in the making.

She said she can prove it is truth in her beliefs. Meaning she can prove that it is truth for her. By man's definition of the words, all that's needed to prove that in someone's beliefs something is truth, is for that person to sincerely say so. That's all. She didn't say it's truth for everyone as you continue to insist. She admits:

Yes, in your point of view, and in the world's point of view, I can see how you think it's not real proof or truth

So you're just being a jerk when you keep calling on her to prove that what she believes is a universal fact, and that she should call the TV stations, etc.

Now, about being "blinded by religious fanaticism." We would all agree that life on Earth had a beginning. It didn't exist infinitely. Right? Arguably the biggest questions in biology is how life started. In spite of that and all the attempts to show that life can start on its own, today there is just as much scientific evidence out there to prove that life can spontaneously generate as there is scientific evidence that God created it. So quit that holier than thou facade because, unless you can present me with proof that life can start on its own, you are no less blinded by your atheism than we are by our religion.

[POPmetal]

Now, about being "blinded by religious fanaticism." We would all agree that life on Earth had a beginning. It didn't exist infinitely. Right?

As an agnostic, my answer is "I don't know", just like everything involving god or the universe.? Which leads me to this....

you are no less blinded by your atheism than we are by our religion.

Like rocket queen, you need to brush up on your vocabulary.? An atheist is someone who denounces god and refuses to listen to accept the possibility that there could be a god.? I repeatedly said I'd believe anything if you proved it to me.? I will accept proof, an atheist will not.

That makes me an AGNOSTIC.

Unfortunately, I seem to have met many christians who cant distinguish an atheist from an agnostic.? They feel anyone who doesn't believe christianity must either be an atheist or a satanist.? OR maybe they just flat out don't know what either word means.? Either way, an athetist I am not, and you (once again) ignored whatever parts you felt like ignoring in order to attempt a point.

Arguably the biggest questions in biology is how life started. In spite of that and all the attempts to show that life can start on its own, today there is just as much scientific evidence out there to prove that life can spontaneously generate as there is scientific evidence that God created it. So quit that holier than thou facade because, unless you can present me withproof that life can start on its own,

BLAH BLAH BLAH.? All of this is irrelevant to anything being discussed.? You're just trying to draw fire away from the issues being debated with this god vs biology crap.?? Reading the above, I'm halfway expecting one of those church sermons about god taking over the world to come from you next.

[POPmetal]

An atheist is someone who denounces god and refuses to listen to accept the possibility that there could be a god.

Thanks for etching into your forehead what I keep saying about you.? You are a narrow minded charlatan who passionately REFUSES to READ anything that doesn't appeal to you.? You've proved it yet again by IGNORING my repeated statements that I WOULD accept any proof you offered me, therefore I am not an atheist, but an agnostic.? You REFUSE to accept the difference.? Look the word "agnostic" up in the dictionary if you need to.? Its not that hard to understand.

So I'm still waiting for that proof, but you just can't seem to provide it, so you use your close-mindedness to unsuccessfully attempt to imbue me as close-minded.? Typical christian tactic.? Mask your own shortcoming by projecting it onto another person.? Dont think for a second christians haven't done that to me before, so don't think I don't recognize the tactic.

You got proof?? I'll listen.? Let's hear it.? Until then, kindly refrain from assessing ridiculously false labels upon me such as atheism.

Hey, I didn't say anything. Your own actions are my best evidence? And here you go stereotyping Christians again with "close-mindedness." Very original! But at least you're no longer trying to argue that you're not egocentric or hypocritical, so maybe there's hope for you. And by the way, since you're a purported agnostic, how many times have you gone on such a rampage against atheists?

[POPmetal]

Hey, I didn't say anything.? ?Your own actions are my best evidence?

There you have it again, all the evidence you have is what you want to read.

And here you go stereotyping Christians again with "close-mindedness."

Hey, your actions are my best evidence.? Keep ignoring entire sections of my posts and you'll keep fitting yourself right into that stereotype.

But at least you're no longer trying to argue that you're not egocentric or hypocritical, so maybe there's hope for you.

Oh yes, maybe there is hope for me!? Maybe I can one day see the error of my sinful ways and join the clergy, for they are oh so right, oh lord!? ?

I knew you'd eventually sound like Jerry Falwell preaching to his choir.

And by the way, since you're a purported agnostic, how many times have you gone on such a rampage against atheists?

Rarely, but not because of my difference in beliefs with them, but because, unlike christians, atheists are rarely obtrusive with their beliefs unless affronted by christians in some way.? I'm sure you won't want to believe that, but its true.? Just think: who does the lion's share of public protesting against laws, theories, and beliefs that they don't like?? I've never once seen a group of atheists standing outside an abortion clinic, or a porno shop, or a rock concert, -- or anywhere else --? protesting it because it doesn't concur with their beliefs.

But in my hometown alone, I've seen myriad christians do all of the above, in addition to writing venomous letters to the newspaper telling us "secularists" that they are going to "take back" this country, that this country was founded by them and for them, and that if we secularists don't like it, we can just go "find our own island" to live on.

And I am not exaggerating in the slightest about them saying we "secularists" need to leave the country, they have actually said that.? Letters like that appear in my local paper literally once every week.?

And on the rare occasion that a "nonbeliever" DARES to write a refutation to anything they say, that only prompts a slew of angry letters from christians denouncing the individual as "close-minded", "prejudiced", "hateful", and on and on, you get the point.

We even had a guy running for delegate who is an ordained baptist minister, and he made it clear that he intended to infiltrate the government with his religion.? Huge amounts of people from my town supported him.? But thank god (pardon the phrase), the rest of the state had enough sense not to vote for him.? One of the laws he wanted to enact was raising the fee for divorces so high that most people could not reasonably afford divorce.? The reason?? Divorce is immoral to him, so he wanted to make sure nobody could get one.? He freely admitted that in TV interviews.

Are atheists close-minded as well?? Yes.? But are they are fanatical as those christians who are blinded by their faith?? No.? You may not want to admit that, but christians are 1000 times as fanatical and forceful about their beliefs as atheists are.

So in summation, I don't really encounter any atheists who thrust their beliefs into others and thus warranting a "rampage" against them as you put it.? On the other hand, the people I cited above are the ones who (as you have) call ME close-minded, fanatical, and condescending.

Fact is, let's reverse the question you asked me.? Has an atheist ever gone on a rampage against me for not sharing his beliefs?? Never.? But have scores of christians done so?? I'll let you surmise the answer to that one.

(And before you start ranting about some of the statements I made above, I'm not trying to make this about public protests , it is just an example.? And don't say "christians have the right to protest!? it's free speech!" because free speech isnt the issue either)

I thought I was the one who was supposed to be delivering "sermons"   

You need to visit some nice places like Berkeley and see who does most of the protesting there. Go live there for a while and get back to me on that.

[kathryn2662]

And here you go stereotyping Christians again with "close-mindedness."

I agree with you POPmetal, it's funny to me how people who arent christians are SO quick to stereotype, and act as though all christians are one yet they get mad when christians steretype them, when there are so many christians out there who make me mad and go about God's work all the wrong ways, it's funny to me as a christian how I dont stereotype athiests and others (my best friend being one) and as thousands of christians I know reach out to invidual people rather than "groups" of people.  You should probably stop posting like how I did, because you can preach it all day long, but someone who can turn the bible into something wrong and bad obviously doesnt know what it's really about, doesnt even come close, their eyes are open but they dont see a thing, their ears are open but they dont hear a thing, so you are just arguing with someone who doesnt know both sides before making their decisions and preachings, even though they think they do- which we shouldnt hold that against them and they still have every right to speak their mind and who are we to tell them they are wrong, they can only make THEIR own decision to decide if they are wrong or not.  It's not our job to tell someone they are wrong or walking the wrong path, that's the Holy Spirits job, but what our job is- is to bring them into a place where they can hear the Holy Spirit, but they have to make the choice to be receptive to it.  There are a thousand things I could have said, and so many ways I could have gone about posting back, and catch others in their mistakes, but we arent to pick on people, jump on their failures, criticize their faults, and not to condem those who are down, "it's easy to see a smudge on your neighbor's face and be oblvious to the ugly sneer on your own.  Do you have the nerve to say, 'Let me wash your face for you,' when your own face is distorted by contempt?  It's this I-know-better-than-you mentality again, playing a holier-than-thou part instead of just living your own part.  Wipe that ugly sneer off your own face and you might be fit to offer a washcloth to your neighbor" (luke 6).  Non christians are christians- just with out Jesus, so we should treat them no different than we do believers, we all have faults and neither can live perfect with perfect actions of not saying anything hypocrital sounding expecially when so many people have to pin point and nit pick at simple statements that dont need to be skinned so much, we all are people who niether side should condem the other or tell who is right and who is wrong, I know I dont jump down a non-believers throat when I see them fault up in their statements because what human doesnt do that.  As christians we cant argue and debate, we are to meerly be an example of and reflect Christ's love, know when to speak- know when not to, and more importantly know what to, and when someone pins you as acting that way even when you arent- remember that they are only going to see what they want to see- if you are acting it or not they will see exactly what they are set out to see.  We arent to point out what is right and wrong, but just to live right and keep the message alive.  I wasnt at all offended by bridges or tied-ups words, because in order to be offended it has to pierce your flesh, but my flesh has been crucified in the Holy Spirit and no weapon formed against me will prevail, it comes with the territory, and it's not gonna slow me down or stop me, and I dont hold their words against them as they did to me, it only encourages me and I work the good through it, I know what's in store when you speak God's word- you get attacked, but when I stand in His name He stands for me before the Father, I already know and understand why things are the way they are so it's no skin off my back.  I said I wasnt going to reply, but I meant that as in to them.  I found your posts to be true, and I am only talking to you through this post.  The reason why I dont want to post back and forth like before, is for the reason I stated above, because look at probably the number one reason in my oppinion, why so many people get turned off from Jesus is because of looking at other christians, how they live, how they go about things, and there are so many christians out there who dont do what God says to do and how to and the word and will of God and preach down to non believers and give a horrible example of Jesus and show people the wrong image and the wrong way of how Jesus planned for us to be, so many christians who give God a bad name- are the highest reason why people are so turned off from God, and it's because we are His mouth and His hands on earth- we are His embassadors and if we do the job wrong, then it will reflect that on earth. It goes to show how IMPORTANT it is for christians to follow the entire way of God's will before opening their mouths, how important our actions are and how microscoped they are.   I appologize, on the behalf of so many christians who give the wrong image of God, because it even makes MY stomach turn and makes ME mad when I see people like that, and people just like how Bridge described who protest the wrong way and say the wrong things and do it with hate and are hypocrits, but Im only responsible for MY actions because I am an individual child of Christ with my own relationship with a living breathing savior. 
I didnt mean to type so much, and I probably shouldnt have typed at all, I just wanted to say I liked your posts and agreed.

[kathryn2662]

WHOOOOOOOOOA!

What the hell's going on here?? You're not posting in this thread anymore, remember?? ?

Actually, the only thing that drives my nuts about your posts is the way you don't break your sentences up.? Separating paragraphs is a beautiful thing, child.? Embrace it as you would jesus.? ?

Is that sarcasim, if it is, there's no reason for you to be mean towards me.  But I don't meen to assume that, if you are joking around not being mean.  An just for reference, me saying that Im not posting anymore meant pertaining to that discussion and back an forth posts between us, maybe I should have specified that.  Haha, it drives me nuts too how I do that, I dont know if it's out of laziness  or just that I dont know enough grammar to know when to seperate paragraphs.  I dont think that will change though haha

[Dr. Blutarsky]

Putting Pat Robertson in the same thread as Jesus is insulting to Jesus. I`m no religious scholar, but Jesus never condoned taking out someone as Robertson suggested. I don`t think there is a bigger sin than abusing your influence from the pulpit.

[kathryn2662]

Is that sarcasim, if it is, there's no reason for you to be mean towards me.?

No sarcasm intended.? Note the smiley at the end.

Mean?? Me?? Who told you that lie?? I bet it was Popmetal.? ?

Yeah that's what I thought when I saw the smiley, but I was just checkin just in case 

[POPmetal]

And here you go stereotyping Christians again with "close-mindedness."

I agree with you POPmetal, it's funny to me how people who arent christians are SO quick to stereotype, and act as though all christians are one yet they get mad when christians steretype them, when there are so many christians out there who make me mad and go about God's work all the wrong ways, it's funny to me as a christian how I dont stereotype athiests and others (my best friend being one) and as thousands of christians I know reach out to invidual people rather than "groups" of people.? You should probably stop posting like how I did, because you can preach it all day long, but someone who can turn the bible into something wrong and bad obviously doesnt know what it's really about, doesnt even come close, their eyes are open but they dont see a thing, their ears are open but they dont hear a thing, so you are just arguing with someone who doesnt know both sides before making their decisions and preachings, even though they think they do- which we shouldnt hold that against them and they still have every right to speak their mind and who are we to tell them they are wrong, they can only make THEIR own decision to decide if they are wrong or not.? It's not our job to tell someone they are wrong or walking the wrong path, that's the Holy Spirits job, but what our job is- is to bring them into a place where they can hear the Holy Spirit, but they have to make the choice to be receptive to it.? There are a thousand things I could have said, and so many ways I could have gone about posting back, and catch others in their mistakes, but we arent to pick on people, jump on their failures, criticize their faults, and not to condem those who are down, "it's easy to see a smudge on your neighbor's face and be oblvious to the ugly sneer on your own.? Do you have the nerve to say, 'Let me wash your face for you,' when your own face is distorted by contempt?? It's this I-know-better-than-you mentality again, playing a holier-than-thou part instead of just living your own part.? Wipe that ugly sneer off your own face and you might be fit to offer a washcloth to your neighbor" (luke 6).? Non christians are christians- just with out Jesus, so we should treat them no different than we do believers, we all have faults and neither can live perfect with perfect actions of not saying anything hypocrital sounding expecially when so many people have to pin point and nit pick at simple statements that dont need to be skinned so much, we all are people who niether side should condem the other or tell who is right and who is wrong, I know I dont jump down a non-believers throat when I see them fault up in their statements because what human doesnt do that.? As christians we cant argue and debate, we are to meerly be an example of and reflect Christ's love, know when to speak- know when not to, and more importantly know what to, and when someone pins you as acting that way even when you arent- remember that they are only going to see what they want to see- if you are acting it or not they will see exactly what they are set out to see.? We arent to point out what is right and wrong, but just to live right and keep the message alive.? I wasnt at all offended by bridges or tied-ups words, because in order to be offended it has to pierce your flesh, but my flesh has been crucified in the Holy Spirit and no weapon formed against me will prevail, it comes with the territory, and it's not gonna slow me down or stop me, and I dont hold their words against them as they did to me, it only encourages me and I work the good through it, I know what's in store when you speak God's word- you get attacked, but when I stand in His name He stands for me before the Father, I already know and understand why things are the way they are so it's no skin off my back.? I said I wasnt going to reply, but I meant that as in to them.? I found your posts to be true, and I am only talking to you through this post.? The reason why I dont want to post back and forth like before, is for the reason I stated above, because look at probably the number one reason in my oppinion, why so many people get turned off from Jesus is because of looking at other christians, how they live, how they go about things, and there are so many christians out there who dont do what God says to do and how to and the word and will of God and preach down to non believers and give a horrible example of Jesus and show people the wrong image and the wrong way of how Jesus planned for us to be, so many christians who give God a bad name- are the highest reason why people are so turned off from God, and it's because we are His mouth and His hands on earth- we are His embassadors and if we do the job wrong, then it will reflect that on earth. It goes to show how IMPORTANT it is for christians to follow the entire way of God's will before opening their mouths, how important our actions are and how microscoped they are.? ?I appologize, on the behalf of so many christians who give the wrong image of God, because it even makes MY stomach turn and makes ME mad when I see people like that, and people just like how Bridge described who protest the wrong way and say the wrong things and do it with hate and are hypocrits, but Im only responsible for MY actions because I am an individual child of Christ with my own relationship with a living breathing savior.?
I didnt mean to type so much, and I probably shouldnt have typed at all, I just wanted to say I liked your posts and agreed.

Thanks Rocket Queen. I really learned a lot from your post. Cuz I'm the type of person who reacts unchristianly in some situations and forgets to turn the other cheek. The only thing I would disagree on is in that I think the number one reason people get turned off by Christianity is the way the media portrays us. They always focus on the negative, which is unfair because none of us are perfect and there are bad apples in every lot, not just Christians. From what I've seen, the majority of Christians are good people, it's just that you always see the odd one out being mocked and ridiculed by the media, and non-Christians assume that stereotypical view. But this is not to say that certain Christians giving God a bad name doesn't play a big role as well. Well, even if you didn't change anyone else's mind, you did influenced me, and I really like your positive attitude.

[POPmetal]

Is that sarcasim, if it is, there's no reason for you to be mean towards me.?

No sarcasm intended.? Note the smiley at the end.

Mean?? Me?? Who told you that lie?? I bet it was Popmetal.? ?

You still talking? I thought you'd be in Berkeley by now You really need to see some of the leftist protesters there. They even bring drums along so they can disrupt pro-life speakers because they they don't think they should have the right to be heard. It's quite a sight I don't think even the most annoying of Christian protesters can match that.

[Bridge]

I can't agree dude, check out this story.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050828/ap_on_re_us/soldier_funeral_protests

I agree that banging drums is annoying and disrespectful, but christians protesting at a dead guy's funeral -- in the presence of his grief stricken relatives -- by yelling "god hates fags!" and "burn in hell fags!" is below the scumbag level.