WHO WOULD JESUS KILL?

[SLCPUNK]

These people say the same shit as terrorists do. Then proclaim we are fighting terror...gimmie a break!

[POPmetal]

Yeah, Pat Robertson is the real problem.

So, its bad if OBL says this...but if Robertson calls for the same action, we should condone it?

This man is a buddy of Bush and claims to be a Christian, yet he spews this on the air?

Freedom of speech sure......and also freedom of speech to say I don't like what he is saying.

You know ... the sad thing is that Pat Roberston got more grief from the Marxist media for a single rash statement than OBL (or Hamas or Hezbolah for that matter) get for incessant polemicizing against the west and Israel.

Not to mention is is pissing off a country that supplies us with 15% of our oil and has already threatened to cut it off from us because of our actions abroad. Do you have any idea of what will happen to this economy is even 10% of our oil supply is cut off?

If Chavez cuts off oil from the US, NOTHING would happen. Oil is a tangible good that is traded on the world market. Venezuela would still need to sell the oil which they produce because their economy would suffer a lot more from such a move. So what they won't sell to the US, they'll have to sell to other countries. As a result, those countries would need to buy less oil from the Middle East, and therefore the Middle East will have more to sell to the US, so the worldwide supply and demand balance would remain the same, hence, except for the geographical flow of oil, very little would change.

[POPmetal]

These people say the same shit as terrorists do. Then proclaim we are fighting terror...gimmie a break!

How many buildings have the 700 Club bombed? How many "infidel" throats have they slit? How many car bombs have they detonated?

Your extreme statements make you no different than they are. You're like that Pat Robertson of the looney left

[SLCPUNK]

Yeah, Pat Robertson is the real problem.

So, its bad if OBL says this...but if Robertson calls for the same action, we should condone it?

This man is a buddy of Bush and claims to be a Christian, yet he spews this on the air?

Freedom of speech sure......and also freedom of speech to say I don't like what he is saying.

You know ... the sad thing is that Pat Roberston got more grief from the Marxist media for a single rash statement than OBL (or Hamas or Hezbolah for that matter) get for incessant polemicizing against the west and Israel.

Not to mention is is pissing off a country that supplies us with 15% of our oil and has already threatened to cut it off from us because of our actions abroad. Do you have any idea of what will happen to this economy is even 10% of our oil supply is cut off?

If Chavez cuts off oil from the US, NOTHING would happen. Oil is a tangible good that is traded on the world market. Venezuela would still need to sell the oil which they produce because their economy would suffer a lot more from such a move. So what they won't sell to the US, they'll have to sell to other countries. As a result, those countries would need to buy less oil from the Middle East, and therefore the Middle East will have more to sell to the US, so the worldwide supply and demand balance would remain the same, hence, except for the geographical flow of oil, very little would change.

Sure buddy. The 5% drop in oil in the 70's caused an almost 400% markup.

Ever heard of speculation? That (pushed by the war) is what is causing you to pull more money out of your wallet each time you fill the tank. Chavez even mentioning this can cause the price of crude to rise up.

You forgot the part where the Bush administration supported the 2002 coup in which members of the Venezuelan military overthrew Hugo Chavez's democratically elected government. Forgot to mention that.....

Today the speculation was even wilder because insurgents had stopped oil flow for a while today. Just that act caused another spike up in pricing. One attack, that slowed the production by 50% today in one part of the world drove our price up and if they attack again, will probably swing it up 70-75 barrel.

You may think he gets a bashing, but it is rightfully deserved. We (America, and this is one of Bush's buddies here) stand out there and tell the entire world how pure we are, yet not living the standard we ask the world to adhere to. We "fight terror" in countries that don't invade us, then turn around and make terror-like remarks. That is what people are upset about.

These people say the same shit as terrorists do. Then proclaim we are fighting terror...gimmie a break!

How many buildings have the 700 Club bombed? How many "infidel" throats have they slit? How many car bombs have they detonated?

Your extreme statements make you no different than they are. You're like that Pat Robertson of the looney left

Well it was a Christian that committed the worst act of terror (here in America) before Osama. And that was a domestic terrorist at that. Gee wonder who that guy watched on tv and looked up to?

What extreme statements? That I condeme a jerk, who calls himself a man of god, for condoning murder? Yea, sure that is just like Pat Robertson..." ok....

[POPmetal]

Yeah, Pat Robertson is the real problem.

So, its bad if OBL says this...but if Robertson calls for the same action, we should condone it?

This man is a buddy of Bush and claims to be a Christian, yet he spews this on the air?

Freedom of speech sure......and also freedom of speech to say I don't like what he is saying.

You know ... the sad thing is that Pat Roberston got more grief from the Marxist media for a single rash statement than OBL (or Hamas or Hezbolah for that matter) get for incessant polemicizing against the west and Israel.

Not to mention is is pissing off a country that supplies us with 15% of our oil and has already threatened to cut it off from us because of our actions abroad. Do you have any idea of what will happen to this economy is even 10% of our oil supply is cut off?

If Chavez cuts off oil from the US, NOTHING would happen. Oil is a tangible good that is traded on the world market. Venezuela would still need to sell the oil which they produce because their economy would suffer a lot more from such a move. So what they won't sell to the US, they'll have to sell to other countries. As a result, those countries would need to buy less oil from the Middle East, and therefore the Middle East will have more to sell to the US, so the worldwide supply and demand balance would remain the same, hence, except for the geographical flow of oil, very little would change.

Sure buddy. The 5% drop in oil in the 70's caused an almost 400% markup.

Ever heard of speculation? That (pushed by the war) is what is causing you to pull more money out of your wallet each time you fill the tank. Chavez even mentioning this can cause the price of crude to rise up.

Today the speculation was even wilder because insurgents had stopped oil flow for a while today. Just that act caused another spike up in pricing. One attack, that slowed the production by 50% today in one part of the world drove our price up and if they attack again, will probably swing it up 70-75 barrel.

You may think he gets a bashing, but it is rightfully deserved. We (America, and this is one of Bush's buddies here) stand out there and tell the entire world how pure we are, yet not living the standard we ask the world to adhere to. We "fight terror" in countries that don't invade us, then turn around and make terror-like remarks. That is what people are upset about.

When "insurgents" disrupt the flow of oil by blowing up a pipeline, it results in lower supply, that's why price rises. When Hugo Chavez doesn't want to sell his oil to the US, he is merely redirecting the flow of supply, but it remains the same globally. There might be a slight fluctuation because of speculation, but nothing long term. If you can't understand this, take a basic economics course.

These people say the same shit as terrorists do. Then proclaim we are fighting terror...gimmie a break!

How many buildings have the 700 Club bombed? How many "infidel" throats have they slit? How many car bombs have they detonated?

Your extreme statements make you no different than they are. You're like that Pat Robertson of the looney left

Well it was a Christian that committed the worst act of terror (here in America) before Osama. And that was a domestic terrorist at that. Gee wonder who that guy watched on tv and looked up to?

What extreme statements? That I condeme a jerk, who calls himself a man of god, for condoning murder? Yea, sure that is just like Pat Robertson..." ok....

The extreme statements likening Pat Robertson to a terrorist. He may say some over the top things, but he hasn't killed anyone, and even apologized for his comment.

And now you can add to this the implication that Pat Robertson caused Tim McVeigh to commit an act of terror. Prove that, or shut up.

And also the implication that Tim McVeigh is a Christian. That's just another anti-Christian media lie: http://www.townhall.com/columnists/maggiegallagher/printmg20021028.shtml
He was a professed agnostic

[journey]

I guess it's just easier for some people to blame God, because they're irresponsible and selfish.

Of course one could easily say that god is irresponsible and selfish for making people assume responsibility for his creative decisions so to speak.? as I said above, if you are all-knowing as god claims to be in the bible, then he knew EXACTLY what would happen by giving man free-will.? Then he runs from that responsibility by blaming man for what is really innate evil.

As I and Tied up said, you can't create good without evil.? So by creating evil and unleashing it upon the world, whether in the form of Lucifier or in the form of free-will, God is irresponsible and selfish by expecting man to assume responsibility for it.

I am not saying man shouldn't assume responsibility for his actions, I am saying that man does not deserve to shoulder the responsbility that evil exists, because God deserves that burden.? If you're the creator, you have to accept the rough with the smooth.? You cant just sit up there in heaven and only take credit when things are going your way.

Everyone has the potential to do evil things. Whether or not God created evil, I don't know.
I have more questions than answers in this life, but I don't want to live my life being bitter. It makes me feel good to believe in God, and all the blessings in life. There's a flipside to everything. But I think that we do the flipping, and it's up to us to decide which side is the best.

I never force my beliefs on anyone. Religion and faith is a personal endeavor.

On topic:

Pat Robertson was out of line. His words were harsh and unprofessional. Because he is a public figure, he has the potential to influence his audience.

[Tied-Up]

You havent experienced it, so you cant say it's not true, until you have a true encounter with Jesus working into your heart and into your life- a true revelation, then you cant say it's not real because I can give thousands of people including myself the works and miracles He has done and glory He has promised, I watched it, Ive seen it, Ive witnessed it, Ive felt it, Ive lived it, Ive experienced it, and all of that daily and growing more everyday.?

Yes, actually, I have experienced that.?

I was once a christian, taught sunday school and I believed every word I heard preached to me by my pastor, and believed every word I taught to the young minds in my sunday school classes.? ?

I experienced the same feelings much like you describe in the exerpt from your post above.

Then... I read the bible.? I mean, actually read it.? With an open mind, with critical thinking skills, and I realized how full of lies and inconsistencies it actually is.? And I reflected long and hard on the traditions of christianity, the oppressive nature of christianity, and I realized that I could no longer subscribe to this doctrine as the basis of my belief system.?

And that's why I left the faith.?

? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

You have a huge attitude towards me and all because you dont agree with me, which is very close minded.

It's very closed minded not to agree with you?? So... can I turn that around on you and say, it's very close minded of you not to agree with me?? Or is this one of those hypocritical things on which christians have cornered the market?

And... I don't have an attitude against you, I have an attitude against oppressive religions... all of them... not just christianity.

Im clearing stating that I know what I speak is truth, because I first hand live it.

Actually, you're clearly stating what you believe.? That's cool... believe what you choose.? but it isn't truth.? You can neither prove or disprove the existence of god.? It's all based on faith.? You live nothing, except your own life, and your own life serves as proof for nothing except for you, and it is not based in the factual, but in the belief.? I can say that I believe that there are spirits in the colors that I paint, and that they speak to me, and that I know this to be the truth because I live it first hand, but that doesn't make it any more true than what you are 'clearly stating.' ?

On Topic:? I think that Chavez should call for the assisination of Pat Robertson.? Or... at least, his kidnapping.? ?

[POPmetal]

You havent experienced it, so you cant say it's not true, until you have a true encounter with Jesus working into your heart and into your life- a true revelation, then you cant say it's not real because I can give thousands of people including myself the works and miracles He has done and glory He has promised, I watched it, Ive seen it, Ive witnessed it, Ive felt it, Ive lived it, Ive experienced it, and all of that daily and growing more everyday.?

Yes, actually, I have experienced that.?

I was once a christian, taught sunday school and I believed every word I heard preached to me by my pastor, and believed every word I taught to the young minds in my sunday school classes.? ?

I experienced the same feelings much like you describe in the exerpt from your post above.

Then... I read the bible.? I mean, actually read it.? With an open mind, with critical thinking skills, and I realized how full of lies and inconsistencies it actually is.? And I reflected long and hard on the traditions of christianity, the oppressive nature of christianity, and I realized that I could no longer subscribe to this doctrine as the basis of my belief system.?

And that's why I left the faith.?

So you were able to experience Jesus, meaning you acknowledge His existence, but because of perceived inconsistencies in the Bible and because you felt that His rules were too oppressive, you chose to denounce Him?

I can understand not believing that He was God in the first place, but I don't see what denouncing Him because you don't like His rules accomplishes?

And if you no longer believe in Him because of inconsistencies in the Bible, what was it that you had experienced?

[SLCPUNK]

When "insurgents" disrupt the flow of oil by blowing up a pipeline, it results in lower supply, that's why price rises. When Hugo Chavez doesn't want to sell his oil to the US, he is merely redirecting the flow of supply, but it remains the same globally. There might be a slight fluctuation because of speculation, but nothing long term. If you can't understand this, take a basic economics course.

 The problem is not solved getting oil from Saudi if S America cuts us off..... the problem is we are close to maxing out our supplies to the point that any downward movement by anyone of these countries (In this case S America) in terms of supply to us will be disruptive financially! You do read don't you? We can't keep up with demand anymore.


The extreme statements likening Pat Robertson to a terrorist. He may say some over the top things, but he hasn't killed anyone, and even apologized for his comment.

You are twisting my words around. I just told you why I don't like him. He is a hypocrite and friend of the right, saying things like this do not help us. His statements are parallel to statements made by Osama yes, and if you don't like that comparison...too bad.

"Making a terroristic threat" is a violation of federal law, if done using the airwaves. It comes under the jurisdiction of the FBI. I'm sure we can all be assured that Bush has directed them to pursue a vigourous prosecution as we speak!

And now you can add to this the implication that Pat Robertson caused Tim McVeigh to commit an act of terror. Prove that, or shut up.

Strawman alert!

Again you twist my words around. I am saying this guy is a dangerous man to claim to be Christian and put words like this over the air waves. There are other nutballs WHO WILL take action and can only be motivated when they hear something like this.

And also the implication that Tim McVeigh is a Christian. That's just another anti-Christian media lie

Haha!! LOOK! A conservative website claiming McVeigh was not a Christian...how suprising! You guys crack me up.....

McVeigh, was in fact a member of screwball Christian group. He is as much a Christian as Osama is a Muslim.

[*Izzy*]

Lucifer is described as the most perfect of Gods creations in the bible, so you should all worship him

  Izzy?

[Dr. Blutarsky]

Pat Robertson represents the extreme right that scares me. A christian that advocates taking someone out by assasination is going against what Christianity stands for. Then again, most Televangelists do. ( Jimmy Swaggart Sex Scandal, Oral Robers asking for money or God will kill him, Jim Baker PTL sex scandal etc)

[Dr. Blutarsky]

Lucifer is described as the most perfect of Gods creations in the bible, so you should all worship him

  Izzy?

The whole burning in hell for eternity thing kinda puts a damper on that for me. At least thats what they tell me.

[*Izzy*]

Why would you burn in hell for worshiping Satan?

  Izzy?

[Dr. Blutarsky]

Why would you burn in hell for worshiping Satan?

  Izzy?

If you worship Satan, you get to meet him in hell after you die. He`s got this fire and brimstone fetish and there`s no loyalty with the guy. He`s like a politician, he`ll tell you something and go back on his word and do something else. There`s no trust there.

[Tied-Up]

You havent experienced it, so you cant say it's not true, until you have a true encounter with Jesus working into your heart and into your life- a true revelation, then you cant say it's not real because I can give thousands of people including myself the works and miracles He has done and glory He has promised, I watched it, Ive seen it, Ive witnessed it, Ive felt it, Ive lived it, Ive experienced it, and all of that daily and growing more everyday.?

Yes, actually, I have experienced that.?

I was once a christian, taught sunday school and I believed every word I heard preached to me by my pastor, and believed every word I taught to the young minds in my sunday school classes.? ?

I experienced the same feelings much like you describe in the exerpt from your post above.

Then... I read the bible.? I mean, actually read it.? With an open mind, with critical thinking skills, and I realized how full of lies and inconsistencies it actually is.? And I reflected long and hard on the traditions of christianity, the oppressive nature of christianity, and I realized that I could no longer subscribe to this doctrine as the basis of my belief system.?

And that's why I left the faith.?

So you were able to experience Jesus, meaning you acknowledge His existence, but because of perceived inconsistencies in the Bible and because you felt that His rules were too oppressive, you chose to denounce Him?

I can understand not believing that He was God in the first place, but I don't see what denouncing Him because you don't like His rules accomplishes?

And if you no longer believe in Him because of inconsistencies in the Bible, what was it that you had experienced?

PopMetal: ?I realize that, before even explaining this to you, you and other christians will probably fail to understand what I will attempt to explain -- simply because you 'can't' because what I am about to explain goes against the grain of your belief. ?A belief is a difficult thing to shake in a person, because it goes to the core of who they are. ?To change that core requires a monumental event, something that happens within themselves, NOT words on a computer screen. ?But... I will explain it, to the best of my ability, although I do realize that I'm going to be banging my head against a wall at this point.

Prayer requires a great deal of focus... a huge amount of mind power. ?The human mind is an extremely powerful thing, and can make things happen that we cannot even conceive. ? ?For a person who is at a very low place in their life, to open up their mind to ask for help from ?something that they may not even believe actually exists, takes a great deal of mind power. ?Once you've set that in motion, your mind can make ?things happen that are truly remarkable. ?THAT IS WHAT ?HAPPENED when I prayed when I was down and out and looking for a way. ?

How can I sit here now, and say with complete confidence that is what happened? ?Because, since discarding the faith, I've continued much of the same practice, but through spellcasting. ?I realize you are going to say spellcasting and prayer are two different things, I assure you, they are not. ?They are both the same thing. ?I know, because I've done both... Actually, I've spellcasted as a wiccan, which is the same thing, and I have since spellcasted since discarding wicca, and they are all the same thing. ?Basically, the only thing that changes is the god/goddess/entity you address in your envocation.

What came to me when I believed was all that my mind could handle at the moment... I was so lost and distraught that I could not fathom that my mind would have been able to accomplish greatness, but I could handle the idea that someone up there was watching out for me, so that is what my life adopted, my life started to turn around for the better, and back then, if anyone had told me what I am telling you now, I would have simply shook my head and said something like, "you don't know, because you can't possibly have felt what I felt." ?Yes... much like you're doing there. ?

OK... finished banging my head against the wall for now.?

[gilld1]

Yeah, look how Satan just used Sadam in the South Park movie.  Poor Sadam, he was in love and Satan just used him.  Proof of his lack of loyalty!

[SLCPUNK]

That Satan will fuck anything with a pulse....

[journey]

I have more questions than answers in this life, but I don't want to live my life being bitter.

You're alluding that I am bitter?? I get that a lot and Ive never understood that.? Why do people assume that because I do not share christian beliefs, that I must be bitter?? I'd say christians (as a whole) have a bigger chip on their shoulders than I've ever had in my years separate from "the faith".? christians seem to belief that the world is out to get them, in fact it tells them says in the bible that they will be hated by the world.? I think that results in their defensive and often abrasive behavior whenever they encounter someone who disagrees with them.?

I wasn't alluding to you being bitter. I was saying that I have more questions than answers, and there's a lot that I don't understand, but I'm not going to be bitter about it. It wasn't an attack on you. I'm no one to judge anyone.

[SLCPUNK]

I have more questions than answers in this life, but I don't want to live my life being bitter.

You're alluding that I am bitter?  I get that a lot and Ive never understood that.  Why do people assume that because I do not share christian beliefs, that I must be bitter?  I'd say christians (as a whole) have a bigger chip on their shoulders than I've ever had in my years separate from "the faith".  christians seem to belief that the world is out to get them, in fact it tells them says in the bible that they will be hated by the world.  I think that results in their defensive and often abrasive behavior whenever they encounter someone who disagrees with them. 

 It wasn't an attack on you. I'm no one to judge anyone.

Spoken like a true follower of Christianity........

[Queen of Everything]

That Satan will fuck anything with a pulse....

Oh God!!! Talk about it!!!  Damn Satan.