Blasts Across London

[nesquick]

No i'm not israeli i'm french but israel is like my second home. I went there about 15 times (or more I don't know). I'm not obliged to say more, because I have no obligation to tell my life to people on the internet. I just don't want it. I was also taught not to speack about that with:
1) people I don't really know (like you)
2) people who never went there or at least who kinda "fantasm" based on what they just see on TV about what appen there (you, i guess)
3) people who don't have enough knowledge and capacity to speack about a conflict that is so complex (you, maybe?).

Once again, the thread is not about Israel. I don't want pandora or jarmo to lock the discussion because we get into off-topic. I want people who have KNOWLEDGES. Do you understand? I know at least one people in that case on that board (Rain). I know I can speack about that with her (and we did it) because I think she has enough knowledges to have a serious discussion on that specific point. Sometimes we agreed, sometimes not, but we had a serious discussion. Now, once again, that's not the subject of this thread. That's why i don't totally answer to your question and I won't do it.

If you are really interested in what I think, make a research, click on "nesquick" and you'll have a lot to read about that. I said everything I though on that point. Nothing to add.

[Where is Hassan Nasrallah ?]

No i'm not israeli i'm french but israel is like my second home. I went there about 15 times (or more I don't know). I'm not obliged to say more, because I have no obligation to tell my life to people on the internet. I just don't want it. I was also taught not to speack about that with:
1) people I don't really know (like you)
2) people who never went there or at least who kinda "fantasm" based on what they just see on TV about what appen there (you, i guess)
3) people who don't have enough knowledge and capacity to speack about a conflict that is so complex (you, maybe?).

Once again, the thread is not about Israel. I don't want pandora or jarmo to lock the discussion because we get into off-topic. I want people who have KNOWLEDGES. Do you understand? I know at least one people in that case on that board (Rain). I know I can speack about that with her (and we did it) because I think she has enough knowledges to have a serious discussion on that specific point. Sometimes we agreed, sometimes not, but we had a serious discussion. Now, once again, that's not the subject of this thread. That's why i don't totally answer to your question and I won't do it.

If you are really interested in what I think, make a research, click on "nesquick" and you'll have a lot to read about that. I said everything I though on that point. Nothing to add.

yes you dont have to tell us. but i dont see why; its not like it's disease or something.
we dont care.
let's step away from israel.
think in absolute.
do you really think evil is INSIDE these people, that they ARE like that no matter what;
do you give any importance to what happend in their lives ?
do you think all this terrorsit shit happens because they are just evil ... and they are just attacking the poor little girl "western countries" that have beed doing good things all the time ...

do the victims (usa, europe ...) have their responsabilities in what is going on - in history -? did we do something ? or we're just innocent victims (global countries, im not talking about the actual innocent victim in the subway) ?

[nesquick]

yes I think a mother and her little baby taking the bus, the metro or walking in the streets are innocent people.
it's weird you absolutely try everything to JUSTIFY terrorist attacks.
For me there is no justifications.

Oh and now i'm fed up to talk with retarded weirdo people. Having different opinions is one point, but trying to justify and to normalize those terrorist atacks are suspect. if you think a mother and her baby who have asked nothing to anybody deserve to be killed in a terrorist attacks, well, you're a weirdo specimen.

[Will]

do the victims (usa, europe ...) have their responsabilities in what is going on - in history -? did we do something ? or we're just innocent victims (global countries, im not talking about the actual innocent victim in the subway) ?

Sure, Western countries do bear some of the responsibility. The responsibility of letting people die in Africa for instance. That's weird how many times people asked if nesquick was an Israeli or not, but no one tried to answer the question I asked twice in the thread: millions of people are dying every year in Africa because of AIDS, curable diseases, malnutrition; why don't we see Africans blowing themselves up in Western cities because they feel left out? Aren't they as poor as the terrorists? No one even touched that subject. I guess terrorist have their reasons in the Middle East, but poverty in Africa is not an issue.

I think we all understand what each other is saying but we all disagree. That's cool, but saying the West has its share of responsibility doesn't make the killings any more justified. And it actually brings no answer to the problem. I don't think anyone is saying the West is all pure and the Middle East is all evil (well, some people do but that's not the majority). Lots of shades of grey come in between, but it doesn't change a thing to say they have their reasons. Sure, we can't bomb every country that protects/ feeds terrorisms. That is not the solution. But we can't just stand on the side of the road watching innocent people being killed by terrorists because they have their reasons either.

[Where is Hassan Nasrallah ?]

do the victims (usa, europe ...) have their responsabilities in what is going on - in history -? did we do something ? or we're just innocent victims (global countries, im not talking about the actual innocent victim in the subway) ?

Sure, Western countries do bear some of the responsibility. The responsibility of letting people die in Africa for instance. That's weird how many times people asked if nesquick was an Israeli or not, but no one tried to answer the question I asked twice in the thread: millions of people are dying every year in Africa because of AIDS, curable diseases, malnutrition; why don't we see Africans blowing themselves up in Western cities because they feel left out? Aren't they as poor as the terrorists? No one even touched that subject. I guess terrorist have their reasons in the Middle East, but poverty in Africa is not an issue.

I think we all understand what each other is saying but we all disagree. That's cool, but saying the West has its share of responsibility doesn't make the killings any more justified. And it actually brings no answer to the problem. I don't think anyone is saying the West is all pure and the Middle East is all evil (well, some people do but that's not the majority). Lots of shades of grey come in between, but it doesn't change a thing to say they have their reasons. Sure, we can't bomb every country that protects/ feeds terrorisms. That is not the solution. But we can't just stand on the side of the road watching innocent people being killed by terrorists because they have their reasons either.

your point about african kids is interesting ... but it's just different .... it's not the same level.
sure there is some huge responsability in how africa is right not ... but it's not as clear and direct as the middle-east intervention ....

and well, africa is not in *shape * to rebel and fight back ... there is more despair i guess ..
i dont know ...

i think understanding the *enemy* is a thekey to future peace.
if we can't understand how our acts brought these kinda of retaliation, then we're fucked...

on that, good night !

[Prometheus]

Oh and now i'm fed up to talk with retarded weirdo people. Having different opinions is one point, but trying to justify and to normalize those terrorist atacks are suspect. if you think a mother and her baby who have asked nothing to anybody deserve to be killed in a terrorist attacks, well, you're a weirdo specimen.

numb nut...... you keep telling us the answer but you wll not open your eyes to see that what your saying is wrong and not right, is the same thing that we are using to "normalise" terroism. you just fail to see that for some cases if not a high number of them there is some form of westren hatred that existed from something that has happend that they balme on the west or can be linked to a westren counry or ideals. random village gets bombed , mother abd baby get killed brothers want revenge join group to take teh revenge.... oh well you know who bombed thje village? a western country... accidental yes... or could jsut be a westren worker hits and kills the women and child while driving through the streets.... what ever it comes down to a hatred to western ideals and how they got there ususally has a tramatic event that can be linked to.... or it could simply be a friends family gets wasted..... what ever it dont matter...... but its the same damn thing your cring about...... you cant freacking see it cause your hung up on the only pure is west.... east is evil.... wtf..... thats where a hitler point should be used.....

[Surfrider]

Well, looks like bombs went off today in Egypt.  Wonder why that was?  Were they part of the war in Iraq?  No.  Part of the war in Afghanistan?  No.  Supporters of Israel?  No. 

When people try to get in the mind of a terrorist and justify or at least explain their reasoning for commiting the horrible acts that they do, I think they fail to realize that these people hate us as much for the good acts that we do as they do for the bad ones.  If you listen they will cite Afghanistan as much as they cite Iraq as motives for bombings. 

These people kill everywhere: Sudan, Kashmir, Israel, Phillipines, United States, Britain, and Spain.  They have been doing so far before the war in Iraq and the interventionist policies of the United States.  Ironically, we place blame on the only countries that are doing anything to fight it.  Until we get off our blame ourselves game and we start to fight this terror as a nation and as a world, bombs will continue to blow and people will continue to die.

What else are we to do?  Do we really not fight these people?  Do we pull out of Iraq and Afghanistan?  How will this help?  It will only make it easier for them to train and reproduce.  At the very least, we must realize that even if we were wrong in the past it is us versus them now.  Either we kill them, or they will kill us.

[Surfrider]

No i'm not israeli i'm french but israel is like my second home. I went there about 15 times (or more I don't know). I'm not obliged to say more, because I have no obligation to tell my life to people on the internet. I just don't want it. I was also taught not to speack about that with:
1) people I don't really know (like you)
2) people who never went there or at least who kinda "fantasm" based on what they just see on TV about what appen there (you, i guess)
3) people who don't have enough knowledge and capacity to speack about a conflict that is so complex (you, maybe?).

Once again, the thread is not about Israel. I don't want pandora or jarmo to lock the discussion because we get into off-topic. I want people who have KNOWLEDGES. Do you understand? I know at least one people in that case on that board (Rain). I know I can speack about that with her (and we did it) because I think she has enough knowledges to have a serious discussion on that specific point. Sometimes we agreed, sometimes not, but we had a serious discussion. Now, once again, that's not the subject of this thread. That's why i don't totally answer to your question and I won't do it.

If you are really interested in what I think, make a research, click on "nesquick" and you'll have a lot to read about that. I said everything I though on that point. Nothing to add.

I dont exactly see why it matters that you have been to Israel or are Israeli?  It is not like you are posting from your personal experience.  I dont ask someone if they are American if they are for the war, or if they are French if they are against it.  It doesnt really matter does it?  All countries have people on all sides if the isle.  I think the only reason they want to know is to try and discredit your arguments. 

[nesquick]

Surfrider, I totally agree with you. Exellent posts (the 2 one you wrote ahead)

I think the only reason they want to know is to try and discredit your arguments.

I think they just are ignorant persons. Don't search for more. When people are limited, you can't do anything.

[Prometheus]

No i'm not israeli i'm french but israel is like my second home. I went there about 15 times (or more I don't know). I'm not obliged to say more, because I have no obligation to tell my life to people on the internet. I just don't want it. I was also taught not to speack about that with:
1) people I don't really know (like you)
2) people who never went there or at least who kinda "fantasm" based on what they just see on TV about what appen there (you, i guess)
3) people who don't have enough knowledge and capacity to speack about a conflict that is so complex (you, maybe?).

Once again, the thread is not about Israel. I don't want pandora or jarmo to lock the discussion because we get into off-topic. I want people who have KNOWLEDGES. Do you understand? I know at least one people in that case on that board (Rain). I know I can speack about that with her (and we did it) because I think she has enough knowledges to have a serious discussion on that specific point. Sometimes we agreed, sometimes not, but we had a serious discussion. Now, once again, that's not the subject of this thread. That's why i don't totally answer to your question and I won't do it.

If you are really interested in what I think, make a research, click on "nesquick" and you'll have a lot to read about that. I said everything I though on that point. Nothing to add.

I dont exactly see why it matters that you have been to Israel or are Israeli?  It is not like you are posting from your personal experience.  I dont ask someone if they are American if they are for the war, or if they are French if they are against it.  It doesnt really matter does it?  All countries have people on all sides if the isle.  I think the only reason they want to know is to try and discredit your arguments. 

lol

your some funny....... christ...... you sound so familair its almost intresting to play the game..... but you know what you hit the nail on the head, it is much easier to discredit someone that has very tight ties to one side over the other, so that is why they are valid questions. It will give or take away weight to one views.....

Surfrider, I totally agree with you. Exellent posts (the 2 one you wrote ahead)

I think the only reason they want to know is to try and discredit your arguments.

I think they just are ignorant persons. Don't search for more. When people are limited, you can't do anything.

see that shows how "limited" in capicty that you are, you can not go outside and look at the whole picture, you look at it as if there is no reason on the other side. To know ones enemy is to defeat ones enemy. The more that you can understand the valuse and ideals of them and be able to see the reasons as to why events are occuring, and through this knowledge you can then learn how to defeat your enemy.

Well, looks like bombs went off today in Egypt. Wonder why that was? Were they part of the war in Iraq? No. Part of the war in Afghanistan? No. Supporters of Israel? No.

When people try to get in the mind of a terrorist and justify or at least explain their reasoning for commiting the horrible acts that they do, I think they fail to realize that these people hate us as much for the good acts that we do as they do for the bad ones. If you listen they will cite Afghanistan as much as they cite Iraq as motives for bombings.

These people kill everywhere: Sudan, Kashmir, Israel, Phillipines, United States, Britain, and Spain. They have been doing so far before the war in Iraq and the interventionist policies of the United States. Ironically, we place blame on the only countries that are doing anything to fight it. Until we get off our blame ourselves game and we start to fight this terror as a nation and as a world, bombs will continue to blow and people will continue to die.

What else are we to do? Do we really not fight these people? Do we pull out of Iraq and Afghanistan? How will this help? It will only make it easier for them to train and reproduce. At the very least, we must realize that even if we were wrong in the past it is us versus them now. Either we kill them, or they will kill us.

funny ya know what, the group that took responsibility was a grpoup close to Uncle Laden...... the resort is frequented by "rich" arabs....... hmmmmm doesnt the formula go (terroism = rich arabs - some of their money + terroist group/ extremist group) ? doesnt make sence to hit that close to the money does it?.... to me id say it was a setup attack by a goverment agencey..... it would make sence and use the name of another group to do it..... oh  oh  I know they have been to close to the west so that is why it was hit...........


Surf go pack you bags and actualy think out you responces first...... they seem sooooo contrived

[Prometheus]

I think the only reason they want to know is to try and discredit your arguments.

I think they just are ignorant persons. Don't search for more. When people are limited, you can't do anything.

had to some back to this one again..................


if you were talking to a person about a medical procedure and getting it done. the person was eitehr very for or aginst but was oppisite to your views..... would you want to know if they had a personal experience... or were a health care professional?


CREDINTALS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

christ i dont know who is worse about it you or surftrain

[Oddy]

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=55954

looks like that guy they shot dead was a mistake.

im sure this will add fuel to the fire that is this debate.

[C0ma]

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=55954

looks like that guy they shot dead was a mistake.

im sure this will add fuel to the fire that is this debate.

I wouldn't call it a mistake. A man left a known terrorist "hang out" that had been being watched, in a long winter coat on a hot summer day. He then headed to a subway station, sprinted down the stairs, jumped the turnstyle and headed right for a train........ next, while being trailed by several police who were yelling for him to stop he continued to run for the train....... after repeated chances for him to stop he was shot dead.......

Where is the mistake???

What should they have done, let him on the train??? There was no way they could risk him being a suicide bomber and let him detonate it either on the train or while in their custody.

Sad yes........Wrong no.

[Where is Hassan Nasrallah ?]

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=55954

looks like that guy they shot dead was a mistake.

im sure this will add fuel to the fire that is this debate.

I wouldn't call it a mistake. A man left a known terrorist "hang out" that had been being watched, in a long winter coat on a hot summer day. He then headed to a subway station, sprinted down the stairs, jumped the turnstyle and headed right for a train........ next, while being trailed by several police who were yelling for him to stop he continued to run for the train....... after repeated chances for him to stop he was shot dead.......

Where is the mistake???

What should they have done, let him on the train??? There was no way they could risk him being a suicide bomber and let him detonate it either on the train or while in their custody.

Sad yes........Wrong no.

yeah who runs away from the police ? and who runs away from the police in the subway few weeks after terrorist attacks ...

[Prometheus]

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=55954

looks like that guy they shot dead was a mistake.

im sure this will add fuel to the fire that is this debate.

I wouldn't call it a mistake. A man left a known terrorist "hang out" that had been being watched, in a long winter coat on a hot summer day. He then headed to a subway station, sprinted down the stairs, jumped the turnstyle and headed right for a train........ next, while being trailed by several police who were yelling for him to stop he continued to run for the train....... after repeated chances for him to stop he was shot dead.......

Where is the mistake???

What should they have done, let him on the train??? There was no way they could risk him being a suicide bomber and let him detonate it either on the train or while in their custody.

Sad yes........Wrong no.

if it would have been me id have ear buds in so i wouldnt hear the police.... hopping the turnstyle no big deal.... probley used to getting chased when hopping teh style.... shot dead.... wrong... shot not wrong.... how many times ahve the police been accused of being hot triggers and not going for incapisation shots you shoot for teh legs.... arm.... high shoulder.... you go for the outside  of the target not the center mass unless u intend to kill


yet again the police do their job but in a situation like that if a guy is running form the cops and is a bomber.... dont ya think he would have  the detonator on his person to blow it regardless......?

yes yes.... i know shoot him right no reation time..... but keep in mind he was gting yelled at he would have known it was up... and could have blown it...


but we got over stressed cops tring to do the job and the are making mistakes.... if it was you hopping the style... would you expect to get shot? what is the goal of terriosm... to make you not to be able to function normaly.... granted the incresed security is something we should have had for years... but the quick shots are not helping any one out... it actually will cause the problem to increase because next time the cops will be too slow to shoot..... wing em and worry about it after..... nail the next one dead if its a terroists.......

[C0ma]

if it would have been me id have ear buds in so i wouldnt hear the police.... hopping the turnstyle no big deal.... probley used to getting chased when hopping teh style.... shot dead.... wrong... shot not wrong.... how many times ahve the police been accused of being hot triggers and not going for incapisation shots you shoot for teh legs.... arm.... high shoulder.... you go for the outside? of the target not the center mass unless u intend to kill


yet again the police do their job but in a situation like that if a guy is running form the cops and is a bomber.... dont ya think he would have? the detonator on his person to blow it regardless......?

yes yes.... i know shoot him right no reation time..... but keep in mind he was gting yelled at he would have known it was up... and could have blown it...


but we got over stressed cops tring to do the job and the are making mistakes.... if it was you hopping the style... would you expect to get shot? what is the goal of terriosm... to make you not to be able to function normaly.... granted the incresed security is something we should have had for years... but the quick shots are not helping any one out... it actually will cause the problem to increase because next time the cops will be too slow to shoot..... wing em and worry about it after..... nail the next one dead if its a terroists.......

He didn't get shot for jumping a turnstyle. He got shot for the series of events that even preceded that.

Also, in a perfect world a shot to the back of knee would have been great but think about it: If he were a suicide bomber his goal is to kill as many people as possible. If he makes it to the train he kill 20+, if he blows himself up in the middle of the platform he maybe takes a handful with him........ He would detonate the second he is "imobilized"..... It's sad.... but If you dont want to be shot, don't run out of a suspected terror safehouse and sprint into a train station in 90 degree weather wearing a goose down jacket.

The thing that sucks here is they are being crucified for taking this poor "illegal alien" who was there on an expired VISA out....... but if they had let him reach the train and he blew the thing up 300 feet from the platform they would have been dragged thru the mud for not doing enough in the war against terror.

You asked if I expect to get shot for jumping a turnstyle..... I wouldn't (get shot that is, because I have ditched a fare or two in my day) becuase I don't look like a terrorist. It's an ugly comment but it's true. 90 year old white women aren't blowing up trains, last I checked I wasn't even a little nervous to sit next to a 17 year old Japanese boy on a plane.
Granted there are exceptions, but the unfortunate fact is he looked enough like a "terrorist" for his own good. It sucks, but reality is reality

[Prometheus]

wtf did i say there in that post....... clear as mud i guess........


the problem here is most people only read 2 lines and scim the rest......... if you actualy read everything that was posted and thought about what was said... for ohhhh i dont know 2 mins befre posting, im sure you would notice that the thread went on to say (in a manner that continued from what was said from teh previos poster) that said the timeline of events, that it was a overlook about habits..... if you are hopping turnstyles whenever you grab a train......regardless if your a terroist or not are you going to stop...... like i said this guy had probley hoped the style many times in teh past and got chased and yelled at..... is he going to change his habbit? noooooooooooooooooooooooo

as you said it was basd on a serious of event that proceded the shooting... and hoping of the style.......... if it was based on survalence..... if your not looking ofr it... how was the victim to know he was getting survalled? how was he to know that the the events that would spell his demise were in motion........ if you elinimate what he only had a 90%chance of knowing..... then to his point of view he was killed BC he hoped a style.


accept it or not........ its NEVER cut and dry one way............ if you actualy THINK then you can see that there is more then what the reports say. The general population is so accepting of what is told in the media, that it can be the only way....... but the media rarely will take the stance that someone like me not in the public eye can take, and that is as ive put it, out there looking at the angles to see what can be done better

the second blasts IMO are copy cats regardless of what is released to the media

[jarmo]

London bomb suspect faces extradition from Italy
 
By Phil Stewart and Gavin Jones

ROME (Reuters) - Italian authorities prepared extradition proceedings on Saturday for a London bombing suspect arrested in Rome on Friday, a judicial source said, as police carried out searches into his contacts across Italy.

Interior Minister Giuseppe Pisanu said suspected bomber Osman Hussain, apprehended at a Rome apartment, tried to evade capture with the help of contacts among Italy's Ethiopian and Eritrean immigrant communities, after he fled London on July 26.

Pisanu said there were at least 15 ongoing searches.

British authorities have requested Hussain's extradition and a judicial source in Italy, who declined to be named, said Hussain would face an extradition hearing later on Saturday in Rome. No further details were immediately available.

Hussain, one of four top suspects tied to the failed July 21 attacks on London's transportation network, is accused of trying to explode a device on the train heading to Shepherd's Bush, on the Hammersmith and City line in west London, Pisanu said.

Police have arrested another three prime suspects in London and Birmingham.

"From the investigations, it has been possible to identify a dense network of individuals belonging to the Eritrean and Ethiopian communities in Italy, believed to have helped him (Hussain) cover his tracks", Pisanu said.

Pisanu said Hussain was born in Ethiopia, not Somalia, as the government said on Friday. Police say he travelled by train from London to Paris, Milan and on to Rome.

Explaining the searches, Pisanu said Hussain had been in contact with East Africans in Milan and Brescia in northern Italy. He said the Ethiopian father of Hussain's girlfriend lived in Brescia, an industrial city just east of Milan.

Hussain was arrested on Friday at what police said was a relative's apartment outside Rome's historic centre.

The minister's comments came as he pushed new anti-terrorism legislation through parliament, meant to bolster Italy's fight against Islamic militants with longer detention of suspects, saliva samples for DNA tests on suspects, and greater surveillance of Internet and telephone traffic.

Pisanu said that the terrorist threat to Italy was real. Without mentioning Hussain directly, he said al Qaeda was sending terrorists from lawless east African territories.

"We are following the situation in the horn of Africa, where, in stateless territories, al Qaeda arrived and settled, and from where it aims through various means to send its members to Europe and the rest of the world," Pisanu said.

He added that the Italian navy was carefully patrolling waters off the Horn of Africa.


Entire alleged bomb ring held after raids in London and Rome

Ian Cobain, Rosie Cowan and Richard Norton-Taylor
Saturday July 30, 2005
The Guardian

All five suspected members of a suicide bomb gang which attempted to bring carnage to London were under arrest last night after three were seized in dramatic SAS and police raids in London and another was captured in Rome.
The hunt continues, however, for the men who armed, trained and inspired the young rucksack bombers, and senior Scotland Yard officers warned that yet more cells of would-be killers may remain at large.

"It would be a mistake to think we are at the end of this," a senior Scotland Yard source said. "We might just be at the beginning."

In a day of rapidly moving developments, the manhunt first focused on west London, where three of the suicide bombing suspects were arrested in armed raids, one of which developed into an anxious three-hour siege.

One of those arrested is suspected to be a fifth gang member who is thought to have discarded his bomb under a bush on open land a few yards from one of the raided flats.

The others were Muktar Said-Ibrahim, 27, an Eritrea-born British citizen wanted for questioning over the attempt to blow up a bus in east London, and a man named as Ramsi Muhammad, who is suspected to have attempted to blow up his rucksack bomb on a tube train at Oval, south London.

A few hours later the manhunt switched to Liverpool Street railway station, six miles to the east, which was sealed off after two young women were led away by armed police who had ordered them to lie face down before being handcuffed.

Finally, Giuseppe Pisanu, the Italian interior minister, announced that the man wanted for questioning over the attempt to blow up an underground train at Shepherd's Bush had been tracked down to his brother-in-law's home in Rome.

He was named as Hussein Osman, 27, a Somali-born British citizen from Stockwell in south London. He is thought to have been using his relative's Italian mobile telephone while in London.

One of the suspects, Yasin Hassan Omar, 24, a Somali who has lived in Britain for 13 years, is already being questioned after being arrested in a dawn raid on a house in Birmingham three days ago.

He is reported to have demanded an interpreter during questioning at Paddington Green police station in west London, and is said to be complaining that he is suffering headaches and nausea after being hit with a Tazer stun gun.

One of yesterday's raids led to a tense three-hour stand-off while scores of heavily armed officers from the Yard's SO19 firearms unit surrounded the building.

Witnesses described how a man wearing what appeared to be a bus driver's uniform had earlier been led to a four-storey block of flats in Dalgarno Gardens, north Kensington. After pointing out a property on the top floor he was led away with his hands bound behind his back with white plastic ties.

A rapid series of explosions then signalled that the raid was under way.

Soldiers from the SAS had moved in to blow the door off the flat. Large amounts of teargas were also used, and there were unconfirmed reports that the soldiers had tossed stun grenades inside.

As police sealed off nearby streets and shouted at residents to get indoors, more officers clad in overalls and wearing black balaclavas descended on the scene.

Some officers could then be heard shouting to the suspects to strip to their underwear, walk out of the flat, turn into the corridor, and then stop. Officers could clearly be heard addressing the suspects as "Muhammad" and "Mr Ahmed".

Towards the end of the siege they could be heard demanding why one of the men would not come out of the building. He shouted back: "I'm scared. How do I know you won't shoot me?"

In a reply which apparently referred to the shooting of an innocent man a week earlier, one officer is said by witnesses to have shouted in reply: "That was a mistake."

Police said that neither man wanted to leave the building, but, a Scotland Yard source said: "In the end there was so much gas in there that they had no choice."

Eventually, both men could be seen being led away to police vehicles, wearing white paper overalls and gloves, their faces hidden behind boards held aloft by detectives.

Teams of explosives experts and forensics officers then poured into the building.

The SAS provided what anti-terrorist sources described as technical assistance to the police. "It was not a military operation", the sources emphasised.

Fewer than 10 soldiers, members of a Hereford-based squadron which specialises in counter-terrorist operations, are thought to have been involved. The squadron is ready for deployment at three hours' notice anywhere in the country if the police or MI5 suspect that armed terrorists are in a building. The troops are understood to have moved to a secret location in London immediately after the escape of the would-be suicide bombers on July 21.

It is thought to have been the first SAS operation in London since the Iranian embassy siege of 1980.

Michael Hanning, who lives near the west London raids and was on the Aldgate train that was bombed on July 7, said: "I heard an explosion around 11am. I was very freaked out - it seems to keep following me around at the moment.

"As soon as I heard the explosion I had to get out because I felt safer being out. This has really unnerved me. I still see those people down on the tube."

Jane Hyndman, who lives near Dalgarno Gardens, said she heard a loud explosion just after midday, and then a helicopter overhead.

"There were armed police everywhere, the street was cordoned off and then there were what sounded like four shots.

"We were worried there could be a bomb or some kind of chemical attack, but the police seem to have handled it all very well."

Police wielding machine guns and clad in gas masks also raided a flat less than a mile away in Tavistock Crescent, Notting Hill, where they arrested a man suspected of being the fifth member of the gang. Residents said the flat was occupied by a Somali family.




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[jarmo]

Terror suspect gives first account of London attack

? Rome captive 'says Iraq sparked plot'
? Security chiefs fear new wave of assaults
? Huge hunt for bomb mastermind
? Death gangs were linked, say police

by Tony Thompson, Mark Townsend, Martin Bright and Barbara McMahon Rome
Sunday July 31, 2005
The Observer

One of the men accused of taking part in the failed terror attacks in London on 21 July has claimed the bomb plot was directly inspired by Britain's involvement in the Iraq war.
In a remarkable insight into the motives behind the alleged would-be bombers, Hussain Osman, arrested in Rome on Friday, has revealed how the suspects watched hours of TV footage showing grief-stricken Iraqi widows and children alongside images of civilians killed in the conflict. He is alleged to have told prosecutors that after watching the footage: 'There was a feeling of hatred and a conviction that it was necessary to give a signal - to do something.'

But some of the Italian media reports told a conflicting story. Some reports quoted Osman as saying: 'I hardly know anything. They only gave me a rucksack to carry on the tube in London. We wanted to stage an attack, but only as a show. Who gave me the explosive? I don't know. I didn't know him. I don't remember. We didn't want to kill, we just wanted to scare people.'

Milan's Corriere della Sera newspaper said Osman first told authorities he did not know what was in the backpack he took on the London underground, then changed his version, saying he was told the attackers were only supposed to carry out 'demonstrative' attacks. But the Rome daily Il Messaggero said the suspect told investigators: 'We were supposed to blow ourselves up.'

Osman allegedly said: 'More than praying we discussed work, politics, the war in Iraq ... we always had new films of the war in Iraq ... more than anything else those in which you could see Iraqi women and children who had been killed by US and UK soldiers.'

If these reports turn out to be true, they will provide valuable insights into the workings of the alleged terrorist cells. The revelations come as police in the UK begin hunting an al-Qaeda mastermind believed to be behind the recruitment and training of both sets of London bombers.

The prospect of a UK mastermind controlling the cells raises fears that other units may be active in Britain. Despite the arrest of all five men wanted in connection with the failed attacks, the Metropolitan Police Commissioner, Sir Ian Blair, warned last night of the risk of further bomb attacks.

According to the reports, Hussain claimed the men did not talk about al-Qaeda or Osama bin Laden. 'We had no contacts with the organisation of bin Laden. We knew it existed - we accessed its programmes through the internet - but nothing directly,' he is reported to have claimed, adding that the bombings of 7 July took them by surprise: 'We never had any contact with the Pakistanis.'

However, the bombs that devastated London that day were a signal that they could go into action. 'Our boss taught us how to make explosives out of fertilisers,' he is reported to have said, claiming the men put them into rucksacks and used timers.

Security sources fear that at least one senior figure in the global terror organisation is based in the UK. He may have taken part in a whitewater rafting trip used as a bonding session for several of the suicide bombers in north Wales in early June.

Sweeping new security measures are to be introduced on Britain's road and rail networks this week, including highway patrol officers on the M25 who will check bridges for bombs.

Senior officers are particularly concerned there could be a third attack on Thursday, two weeks after the last attempt. One officer said: 'When you look at the history of terrorist attacks and of al-Qaeda in particular, there is a pattern of repeated attacks on the same targets. They hit the World Trade Centre twice. They attacked the embassies in Egypt twice. If anything the level of security around public transport on Thursday will be even higher than last.'

Rather than the two cells being linked directly, investigators are now focusing on the idea that the men responsible for the 7 July bombs and those behind the failed attacks on 21 July may have been recruited and directed by the same person.

'If you look at the structure of al-Qaeda, what you basically have is a pyramid,' a security source told The Observer. 'If you see the two groups of bombers as two separate teams of footsoldiers on the very bottom, then there is a possibility they are linked by the command structure in the level above. This is the level we are trying to identify and track down.'

The hunt has been given fresh impetus by this new intelligence which suggests that, rather than being manufactured between them, the explosives given to the bombers were handed over by people so far unidentified.

Italian officials are preparing extradition proceedings against Osman. They say he was born in Ethiopia, not Somalia, and may have used fake documents to obtain British citizenship.

The Interior Minister, Giuseppe Pisanu, told his parliament yesterday that Osman had tried to evade capture with the help of contacts among Italy's Ethiopian and Eritrean immigrant communities, after fleeing London on the Eurostar train.

The suspect appeared before magistrates yesterday. His lawyer, Antonietta Sonnessa, objected to his extradition and said it could take up to two months for him to be returned to London.

It has also emerged that Britain's Somali community 'shopped' the first alleged bomber, Hassan Omar, who was found in Birmingham last Wednesday.





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[jarmo]

London on high alert

More than 6,000 police officers are on duty in London this morning, four weeks after the July 7 attacks in which four suicide bombers killed 52 people on three tube trains and a bus.
The huge number of police - many of whom are armed - is aimed at calming commuters and helping to track down any bombers.

Undercover officers are also travelling on tubes and buses, two weeks to the day after the failed July 21 London bombings. SAS soldiers will be on standby to assist police in case of any violent confrontations.

There has been no specific intelligence about a third wave of attacks, but London remains on high alert. All police leave has been cancelled.

Last Thursday, a similar operation saw the largest number of police on the streets of the capital since the second world war. British Transport police have drafted in officers from outside London to increase the security presence.

Police guarding key points in the city will be armed with weapons including MP5 sub-machine guns and Glock 17 pistols.

Marksmen will be equipped with AW50 heavy sniper rifles, which have a range of more than one mile. Armed response vehicles will be stationed around London, ready to respond to any attacks.

The Piccadilly line today reopened fully for the first time since the July 7 blast on a train between Kings Cross and Russell Square stations. All tube stations will have some service today, although the Circle line remains suspended in off-peak hours.

The first person to be charged in connection with the July 21 attacks will appear in court today.

Ismael Abdurahman, 23, of Kennington, south London, faces charges that he allegedly withheld information that could have helped police catch suspects.

Scotland Yard confirmed that one of the men arrested in Brighton, East Sussex, during the weekend as part of the July 21 investigation had been released.

There are still 14 other people in custody in the UK, and one in Italy, in connection with the investigation.

Hussain Osman, the alleged Shepherd's Bush bomber who was arrested in Rome, claimed the devices used had been harmless and were packed only with flour.

However, the Metropolitan Police commissioner, Sir Ian Blair, and his senior aides believe the devices would have caused death and destruction on a level comparable to that of July 7 had they exploded properly.

As detectives questioned the July 21 suspects at Paddington Green police station, in central London, it emerged that the July 7 bombers had reportedly used everyday items, such as bleach, in the manufacture of their explosives.

New York police officials said the bombs had been made in Leeds and stored in an industrial-strength fridge, and were probably set off using mobile phones.

http://www.guardian.co.uk



/jarmo