Would we care as much if this band wasn't called Guns N' Roses?

[younggunner]

Thats the thing...You, Dave, and others have nonchalantly thrown around that claim for years now and it seems that youre not even aware of what youre referring to.? And this isnt about minor details that might require a bit of searching to recall...youre talking about entire stories about the break-up changing.? It seems to me something that major wouldnt be hard to remember, but...

No, because in the past I have always supported what I said with examples and articles. But being this is an old topic I dont feel like looking for the examples. If you want them so badly sift through my 2000 posts and u will find what you are looking for.

Quite frankly I dont care about "defending" as much as I used to. We have talked about this topic countless times and I guarentee you I have said the same statement before and have supported my argument. So if you are really interested go look through my posts from god knows when. But I promise you its all there.

2. ?We're still friends. Afterwards, there was this huge buzz going around. It was a time when Keith and I were still writing songs for a third Buckcherry album and Slash and Duff were writing songs, and there was talk like, why not form a band? After Slash sh*t-canned the whole thing did what they were doing became a project later. He just didn't want me as a singer, that's all there is to it. He had decisions that he had to make you know, we all do. It was just a month out of my life.? - Josh Todd

This isnt the quote Im referring to.

Id hate for my return to possibly appear acrimonious...but thats a cop-out.

not a cop out...just being honest. I could careless really. WHy would I cop out to somehting that I had said once before and had "proof"...I think you know me well enough to know that? when arguing with you I have never copped out and always brought up examples. Have I knocked you down too many times that you are now suffering from memory loss?

Like I said im just being honest. Dont need to prove anything. Maybe one night when I have nothin to do ill look but for the time being forget it. But its there

[Booker Floyd]

I was going to ignore this, but while Im here...

Vr wasnt able to capture the public like many had hoped for. They died down after FTP.

Not exactly true. ?In the month of December, they were averaging about 50,000 records a week, more than they had sold since June 2004. ?It was a result of the Christmas spike, but thats irrelevant to the bottom line - the album picked up significantly half-a-year after its release. ?

FTP also arrived nearly 3 or 4 months after "Slither" was released as a single, and was a successful single itself for a couple of months. ?"Dirty Little Thing" didnt perform well, but that doesnt speak to the success of Contraband or VR as a whole.

They failed in comparison to Audioslave. I remember reading how CB had "Audioslave Legs all Over it". Clearly not the case. They had a nice initial pop. But after that it has died down.

Not according to facts...

Audioslaves debut is double-platinum. ?Contraband is...yup, you guessed it.

Im not surprised by your attempts to downplay VRs success, but it doesnt really reflect reality.

[jameslofton29]

Booker, you are absolutely right. The Axl is God' part of the fanbase has been saying this shit for years. You wanna know why they cant find any Slash and Duff contradictions? Because there aren't any. Axl is the only GNR member that contradicts himself on a regular basis. ?Out of this entire GNR saga, the only story that changes is Axl's. Who are you guys going to believe: A bunch of guys who tell the same story year after year or one guy who changes stories continuously? Younggunner, your using buckcherry shit as a reference? Man, you're grasping at straws!

[younggunner]

Audioslaves debut is double-platinum. ?Contraband is...yup, you guessed it.

Im not surprised by your attempts to downplay VRs success, but it doesnt really reflect reality.

From a numbers standpoint VR is there. But from the feel of the radio and just feel of music, Audioslave is bigger.

Im not trying to downplay anything. Im just making sure VR people realize VR are not as big as many think they are or expected them to be. Imo, Vr barked louder than it bit. SOme of the big legit groups in the genre have created more of a buzz than VR. Thats how it seems to me. But that doesnt mean shit if some1 likes the music. If yoiu think VRs music is great and you love it, great for you. Then what i say shouldnt mean shit to you. But in the grand scheme of things as predicted by yours truly...Vr have rocked but thats bout it.

I was going to ignore this, but while Im here...

thanks im honored

The Axl is God' part of the fanbase has been saying this shit for years. You wanna know why they cant find any Slash and Duff contradictions? Because there aren't any. Axl is the only GNR member that contradicts himself on a regular basis.? Out of this entire GNR saga, the only story that changes is Axl's. Who are you guys going to believe: A bunch of guys who tell the same story year after year or one guy who changes stories continuously? Younggunner, your using buckcherry shit as a reference? Man, you're grasping at straws!

Who said Axl is god? I know, I know because I support Axl and actually think he isnt soley the bad guy in the whole situation, and I actually think most of what he says is true. makes me a nutswinger. I apologize in advance. Like Slash and Duff, all the supporters shit doesnt stink and you are always right because hey, its 2 on 1....

James, you keep saying Axl keeps changing his story. Give me examples of when he has changed his stroy. I really wish my memory would come back to me and I really wish I had the examples to show you how stupid you would look. So if you are blessed with a better  memory than me and have the exact quotes please share them with me.

[jameslofton29]

Younggunner, I dont really mean disrespect to you guys(and girls) that I refer to as the 'Axl is God' fanbase. I just came up with that name for the people here who think Axl has never made a mistake and they'll bash anyone who says he has. As far as examples: several were given in this thread. Axl saying Slash didnt want to evolve, and then saying he didnt want to do a typical GNR record. Which is it? It can only be one of those reasons, not both. But I'm like you as far as the memory shit goes. I did alot of drugs over the years, and memory's been fading. I quit smoking weed 7 months ago, so hopefully the memory will start coming back. To be honest, I think alot of our memories to detail are fading cause we've went so many years with nothing.

[younggunner]

I just came up with that name for the people here who think Axl has never made a mistake and they'll bash anyone who says he has

WHen I have said Axl is perfect?

As far as examples: several were given in this thread. Axl saying Slash didnt want to evolve, and then saying he didnt want to do a typical GNR record. Which is it? It can only be one of those reasons, not both

can you provide the exact quotes and the question he is answering to?

But I'm like you as far as the memory shit goes.

With me its not just the memory. I just dont care that much anymore. I used to know everything and can pinpoint everything when arguing with peeps on this board. But after doing it for a few years over and over it just gets old and you begin to lose interest.

[Booker Floyd]

From a numbers standpoint VR is there. But from the feel of the radio and just feel of music, Audioslave is bigger.

 

The "feel of the radio" and "feel of music?"     Well, when you decide to start using actual facts, youll realize that your initial statement was objectively wrong. 

im just making sure VR people realize VR are not as big as many think they are or expected them to be.

Perhaps you should start paying attention to facts...then youll recognize that VR are in fact just as big as many think:

"No matter what you or I think, a number 1 record, multiple hit singles and a Grammy award have entrenched VR as an entity separating the members from their prior bands."

^ Those are factual statements.  Contraband was #1 on the Top 200 Albums chart.  "Slither" and "Fall To Pieces" were hit songs.  "Slither" earned them a Grammy.  Those are facts that he stated, so why does he need you to tell him VR is not as big as he thinks?  He didnt even mention VRs successful tours, double platinum album, critical acclaim, press coverage, etc.  Meanwhile, youre using the "feel of music" to gauge their success...It seems youre the one who needs to reasses his view of VRs success.

Imo, Vr barked louder than it bit. SOme of the big legit groups in the genre have created more of a buzz than VR.

Examples?

[dustNroses]

the name plays a huge part, bigger part than you would think.

[younggunner]

Perhaps you should start paying attention to facts...then youll recognize that VR are in fact just as big as many think:

Yes they are dominating the music world 

Examples?

Basically look at any quote from the boys when talking bout the band and the album...

SO if you really want some sleazy in your face, raw rock n roll please see CB

[Booker Floyd]

Yes they are dominating the music world?

And this is the difference between our evaluations, I suppose.  I present you with indisputable facts to prove a point, and you, knowing that you cant actually counter them, refer to arbitrary and abstract concepts (the "feel of radio") and statements that were never made ("they are dominating the music world"). 

Its very simple.  I can post a list of VRs achievements and tell you that theyre as succfessful as that list indicates.  So if I think theyre successful based on these cold, hard facts...how are they not as successful as I think? 

Examples?

Basically look at any quote from the boys when talking bout the band and the album...

I meant the second part of your quote...about the big "legit" groups creating more buzz.  While youre at it, perhaps you could explain what "legit" means. 

[Falcon]

SO if you really want some sleazy in your face, raw rock n roll please see CB

As opposed to what, Coldplay?

If you're looking for music that edgy and agressive, or lyrical content ranging from autobiographical to abstract, CB is definately not for you.

[Falcon]

No matter what you or I think, a number 1 record, multiple hit singles and a Grammy award have entrenched VR as an entity separating the members from their prior bands.

Vr wasnt able to capture the public like many had hoped for. They died down after FTP. They failed in comparison to Audioslave. I remember reading how CB had "Audioslave Legs all Over it". Clearly not the case. They had a nice initial pop. But after that it has died down.

So you're trying to downplay VR's factual accomplishments, their success in moving forward professionally and distinguishing themselves outside of their prior bands identities by your perception of "bigger" in comparison to a band who came together in similar fashion??

Hmmm, smells like a reach to me...

[jarmo]

I think both of you are right.

VR have sold a lot of records, played sold out shows and done pretty good.

But on the other hand, they're not the biggest band on the planet as it sometimes might seem when you read some posts on various boards.

They don't sell out arenas yet (as far as I know) and their success isn't global as far as I know. That might have to do with the limited amount of touring they've done in certain markets (no shows in South America, certain European markets were skipped on the last tour etc.).


Anyway, this isn't the VR section so I suggest you continue the VR discussions in the right section.



/jarmo

[madagas]

It still boggles my mind how people place blame on individual members-the Gnr break up was generic as it comes in rock and roll-musical differences. Period. End of discussion. Nobody's right or wrong. You stop getting along and move on with your life. They ALL say stupid shit-Axl, Slash, Duff, and the two poodles (Adler and Sorum). Izzy is the only one that has shown any maturity by staying the fuck out of it. Booker, as much as you can be a pain in the ass, glad to see you back-this board needs intelligent debaters! (and people with a good memory)

[Falcon]

It still boggles my mind how people place blame on individual members-the Gnr break up was generic as it comes in rock and roll-musical differences. Period. End of discussion. Nobody's right or wrong. You stop getting along and move on with your life. They ALL say stupid shit-Axl, Slash, Duff, and the two poodles (Adler and Sorum). Izzy is the only one that has shown any maturity by staying the fuck out of it.

Most definately, plenty of blame for all involved.

Booker, ....., glad to see you back-this board needs intelligent debaters! (and people with a good memory)

Absolutely.

The IQ of this place just went up exponentially.

[Saul]

Personally , I would be just as  excited and happy (maybe more so) if this new album came out simply under the name "Axl Rose" ....

It's Axl's vocals and lyrics more then anything that I am waiting for. Not to diss the guys in the band but for me , Axl can hire whoever he likes to do the music (as long as it fits his vision) , but at the end of the day it will be Axl's vocals , lyrics and delivery of them that I'm most interested in. 

[younggunner]

Its very simple.? I can post a list of VRs achievements and tell you that theyre as succfessful as that list indicates.? So if I think theyre successful based on these cold, hard facts...how are they not as successful as I think??

Just becuase they have certain achievements and numbers doesnt mean they are those numbers.

Palmerio in baseball has "great" numbers but if you ask anyone that knows baseball they will tell you hes not a hall of famer. He never was MVP, never lead the league in HRS, etc. Same with VR. They might have all these fine and dandy numbers but again, imo they arent a big band right now.

I meant the second part of your quote...about the big "legit" groups creating more buzz.? While youre at it, perhaps you could explain what "legit" means

Bands like Audioslave, NIN, GD, FF...These are established bands that are constantly being talked about and played here in a big market. They are a bigger buzz than VR. Thats all nothing more nothing less.

If you're looking for music that edgy and agressive, or lyrical content ranging from autobiographical to abstract, CB is definately not for you.

Agreed. But the members would always talk up a big game.

Vr is a solid, safe album. If you like it great. I could care less. If you hate it I could careless.

So you're trying to downplay VR's factual accomplishments, their success in moving forward professionally and distinguishing themselves outside of their prior bands identities by your perception of "bigger" in comparison to a band who came together in similar fashion??

Im not downplaying anything. Vr is what it is. A nice lil band. All Im saying is that just because certain numbers might be there doesnt mean they are that.

They don't sell out arenas yet (as far as I know) and their success isn't global as far as I know. That might have to do with the limited amount of touring they've done in certain markets (no shows in South America, certain European markets were skipped on the last tour etc.).

And thats what Im saying. If they truly were a bigtime band, they would be huge all over the map. They barely are big here in the states.

They also re released CB about 10x so Im sure that helped too. Not to mention the different color sit came in when it was first released.

(and people with a good memory

[Booker Floyd]

Just becuase they have certain achievements and numbers doesnt mean they are those numbers.

 

Again, facts are facts.? If all you can do in response to them is refer to your own personal, arbitrary "buzz gauge," then it appears you might just be in denial.? Youre obviously not a fan of VR, and eager to downplay their success.? But once again, in an objective analysis, youre personal measurement of success (based on the feel of radio and feel of the music, whatever that may mean) is meaningless next to real facts.

Bands like Audioslave, NIN, GD, FF...These are established bands that are constantly being talked about and played here in a big market. They are a bigger buzz than VR. Thats all nothing more nothing less.

Ive already explained the Audioslave comparison.? Im assuming you were unaware of Audioslaves actual sales when you made the presumption that VR didnt match...and you were wrong.? The othersare established bands.? Theyre not new bands like VR, and in terms of first-week sales, they havent sold much more than VR.? In fact, NIN only sold less than 20,000 more than VR for With Teeth.? Only Green Day has seen a huge surge after the first week.? So despite not meeting your invented definition of the word, VR are actually very much legit.

As for buzz, Im sure youll once again point to made-up means of measurement, but if you referred to reality (TV/radio appearences, press coverage, etc.), you would know better.

[ppbebe]

donno about the memory but I simply admire people here for their long lasting love's feeling (n hate?) for the band.

Booker, as much as you can be a pain in the ass

The villain is back!!!

I thought you moved to the Morrissey board or somewhere. Well come back.

[Lineker10]

I gotta give it to Booker on this one - VR was massive when Contraband hit - loads of press coverage before and after, sold out tours (in the UK this is). In the UK they toured arenas on there 2nd tour and were 2nd headliners at the Download Festival (The new Monsters of Rock). There as big as a one album band can be at the moment without being a truley groundbreaking band ala original Gn'R, Zeppelin etc.etc.