Could Axl have done it without the old guys?

[Falcon]

Oh fuck no, especially AFD.

That was lighning in a bottle, and in all liklihood the creative peak for all involved.

[jameslofton29]

Falcon, no truer words have ever been spoken. Good post. I dont care how great CD is, or the next VR record is, no member of GNR can top AFD. If a reunion happened and they did AFD Vol.2, they still couldn't top it. Shit, no band can top it.

[chineseblues]

Axl - A  mediocre songwriter (So far, in my eyes, he hasn't proven himself as a songwriter, I'm not judging the unreleased tracks)

Hmm, November Rain, Estranged, Coma, Madagascar, the blues all say your wrong on that one.

[Falcon]

Axl - A? mediocre songwriter (So far, in my eyes, he hasn't proven himself as a songwriter, I'm not judging the unreleased tracks)

Hmm, November Rain, Estranged, Coma, Madagascar, the blues all say your wrong on that one.

I'm with *Izzy* on this one, still much to prove.

[chineseblues]

Axl - A  mediocre songwriter (So far, in my eyes, he hasn't proven himself as a songwriter, I'm not judging the unreleased tracks)

Hmm, November Rain, Estranged, Coma, Madagascar, the blues all say your wrong on that one.

I'm with *Izzy* on this one, still much to prove.

I dont think he has anything to prove, what he has done in the past is proof enough that he is an amazing songwriter. Estranged alone is more then enough to prove his greatness.

[dave-gnfnr2k]

Axl still would have been huge without the other guys. But how huge no one knows. He would not have been as big as guns was in the early 90s but no band will ever be that huge again. Axl would have been a huge star no matter who was backing him. He is the one who made guns n roses as big as they? were, if slash, izzy and duff had their way, gnr would never have gotten bigger than a club band. AFD and UYI would have been much different with out slash, duff and izzy. But who is to say they would not have been better without the old guys?

[Falcon]

I dont think he has anything to prove, what he has done in the past is proof enough that he is an amazing songwriter. Estranged alone is more then enough to prove his greatness.

I should have elaborated, I think he still has to prove he can carry out his vision with whomever he chooses.

Until then, his greatness will always be associated with the old guys, not as self sufficient creative force.

[dave-gnfnr2k]

I dont think he has anything to prove, what he has done in the past is proof enough that he is an amazing songwriter. Estranged alone is more then enough to prove his greatness.

I should have elaborated, I think he still has to prove he can carry out his vision with whomever he chooses.

Until then, his greatness will always be associated with the old guys, not as self sufficient creative force.

Yep slash and duff have proven they are not half as good without Axl, now we are going to see what Axl can do without slash, duff and izzy.

[Falcon]

Yep slash and duff have proven they are not half as good without Axl, now we are going to see what Axl can do without slash, duff and izzy.

Speaking solely on AFD, I agree.? Though "half as good" as that record would be a fine accomplishment.? Same goes for Axl though, he's gotta bring it creatively without those 3 or he rides in same boat.

For me, they are light years ahead of the UYI era GNR creatively, when/if CD drops, I hope Axl is as well.

[dave-gnfnr2k]

Yep slash and duff have proven they are not half as good without Axl, now we are going to see what Axl can do without slash, duff and izzy.

Speaking solely on AFD, I agree.? Though "half as good" as that record would be a fine accomplishment.? Same goes for Axl though, he's gotta bring it creatively without those 3 or he rides in same boat.

For me, they are light years ahead of the UYI era GNR creatively, when/if CD drops, I hope Axl is as well.

For the UYI stuff VR is not as good as the top tier songs but the fillers songs I will say VR has some better songs. But that is not very hard since half the songs on the UYIs should have been cut.

[Acquiesce]

Axl is a talented enough guy that he probably would have experienced some level of success but its very unlikely that he would have experienced it to the degree he did with GNR. They did truly catch lightning in a bottle. That type of success is rare. I also don't think he has the talent to write an AFD on his own. He was barely part of the actual GNR sound (the actual music). He is definitely a talented lyricist but I have yet to see proof that he could write a full album on his own. He would have had to surround himself with incredibly talented musicians but even then it would be unlikely to come up with an album like that because that type of chemistry is hard to find. You can find someone who is talented at their instrument but its much harder to find a person that completely gels with you.

[Falcon]

For the UYI stuff VR is not as good as the top tier songs but the fillers songs I will say VR has some better songs. But that is not very hard since half the songs on the UYIs should have been cut.

I'm not a fan of the Illusions so I'll have to disagree, but even then I find it hard to compare the 2.
Different eras, different singers different visions. 

I'm perfectly happy with the old guys present situation and am looking forward to seeing if Axl can do it without them.  Until we hear something, a body of work sans his ex-bandmates, the jury is out on Axl.

[marknroses]

With the other threads going on about credit for writing music etc. i was just wondering what people though of these to questions-

a) Do you think Axl could have made AFD and the Illusions, been as good as the old band and acheived the great success by himself - without the old members?

and....

b) Do you think he could of been as good and successfull without the old guys but with a differant set of guys.

I always viewed Gn'R - apart from mabye Adler as a unit that while they may have had limited success would never have been as good without each other.

No.
GNR was the right players in the right place in the right time. I can only think of the Beatles & Led Zeppelin as being the two other bands in which all the members are irreplacable. You can't even replace Steven Adler. Izzy himself said that when Steven went down, the whole sound of the band came down with it. I don't think Axl Rose would have picked a better bassist, lead/rhythm guitarist and drummer than Slash, Izzy, Duff & Steven. It would probably have ended up like Skid Row had Axl been running the show with average players (meaning a good record the first time out & an ok record the second time and then a front man going solo) although that is a bad comparison because its hard to tell what Axl can do without the old gNR.

BTW, I Just bought the Roxy Show from 1/18/1986 and listened to such a kick ass version of Back Off Bitch with Steven Adler on the drums giving it a whole new life. I really wonder if UYI would have been a better sounding record had Steven had recorded the whole thing (ironically Civil War is arguably the best track on UYI, not the best but certainly a consideration, and that has great drumming courtsey of Steven Adler the popcorn). Of course, Steven would have had his nuts fried for telling Axl how poor of an idea it was to bring in Tracy/Roberta & Teddy Zigzag and the 976-Horn section. Algthough getting fried by the crack was definitly a worse option.

MNR

[dave-gnfnr2k]

Even if Axl never hooked up with slash and duff he still would have had Izzy in his band since those two grew up together and were in a few bands together before the gnr we all know and love.

[deliverthecow]

For the UYI stuff VR is not as good as the top tier songs but the fillers songs I will say VR has some better songs. But that is not very hard since half the songs on the UYIs should have been cut.

I'm perfectly happy with the old guys present situation and am looking forward to seeing if Axl can do it without them.? Until we hear something, a body of work sans his ex-bandmates, the jury is out on Axl.

I agree Falcon. I too am happy with the old guys present situation, although i would like to see alittle more output from Izzy. It will be interesting to see what Axl has done without them . These topics will be alot more interesting if Axl ever gives us something to compare too.

[dave-gnfnr2k]

With the other threads going on about credit for writing music etc. i was just wondering what people though of these to questions-

a) Do you think Axl could have made AFD and the Illusions, been as good as the old band and acheived the great success by himself - without the old members?

and....

b) Do you think he could of been as good and successfull without the old guys but with a differant set of guys.

I always viewed Gn'R - apart from mabye Adler as a unit that while they may have had limited success would never have been as good without each other.

Of course, Steven would have had his nuts fried for telling Axl how poor of an idea it was to bring in Tracy/Roberta & Teddy Zigzag and the 976-Horn section. Algthough getting fried by the crack was definitly a worse option.

MNR

Lets not start this again, we all know that was slashs idea to bring in the back up singers and the horn section on tour. Slash even said that himself in an interview. Why do you always claim this was all Axls idea when it was not. I proved this before yet you keep claiming it was all Axls idea. slash suggested it, Axl thought it was great and agreed.

Also Adlers civl war was pieced together from 100 takes or something like that. He was too drugged out to be any good. If it was the clean steven, then that is a different story.

[deliverthecow]

Someone mentioned if Steven had played on the Illusion records instead of Matt if it would have changed the sound. I definitely think so , Matt is a great technical drummer but his playing was so robotic on the Illusion records, it definitely changed the sound of the band. I think if Adler would have played on them it would have been a big difference, his style fit with the band more so than Matt's.

[killingvector]

With the other threads going on about credit for writing music etc. i was just wondering what people though of these to questions-

a) Do you think Axl could have made AFD and the Illusions, been as good as the old band and acheived the great success by himself - without the old members?

and....

b) Do you think he could of been as good and successfull without the old guys but with a differant set of guys.

I always viewed Gn'R - apart from mabye Adler as a unit that while they may have had limited success would never have been as good without each other.

No.
GNR was the right players in the right place in the right time. I can only think of the Beatles & Led Zeppelin as being the two other bands in which all the members are irreplacable. You can't even replace Steven Adler. Izzy himself said that when Steven went down, the whole sound of the band came down with it. I don't think Axl Rose would have picked a better bassist, lead/rhythm guitarist and drummer than Slash, Izzy, Duff & Steven. It would probably have ended up like Skid Row had Axl been running the show with average players (meaning a good record the first time out & an ok record the second time and then a front man going solo) although that is a bad comparison because its hard to tell what Axl can do without the old gNR.

BTW, I Just bought the Roxy Show from 1/18/1986 and listened to such a kick ass version of Back Off Bitch with Steven Adler on the drums giving it a whole new life. I really wonder if UYI would have been a better sounding record had Steven had recorded the whole thing (ironically Civil War is arguably the best track on UYI, not the best but certainly a consideration, and that has great drumming courtsey of Steven Adler the popcorn). Of course, Steven would have had his nuts fried for telling Axl how poor of an idea it was to bring in Tracy/Roberta & Teddy Zigzag and the 976-Horn section. Algthough getting fried by the crack was definitly a worse option.

MNR

Adler was very replaceable. I think Sorum was perfectly capable of handling those parts and he did it very well. Civil War was far from the best track on the UYI records IMO; even if it is considered strong, it wasn't the drumming that made that track memorable.   He was very good but not without a worthy contemporary.

and yes, I have read how Slash encouraged and recruited the back up musicians for the UYI tour. It wasn't solely Axl's idea. You erroneously pin blame on the redhead for the bloatedness of the tour.

[deliverthecow]

The leg of the Illusions tour with the whole entourage was definitely bloated. The Skin and Bones leg was much better. That is what they should have put on video.

[dave-gnfnr2k]

the leg of the Illusions tour with the whole entourage was definitely bloated. The Skin and Bones leg was much better. That is what they dhould have put on video.

They also had izzy for that leg didnt they?