why i respect axl's perfectionism so much

[August 18th]

i absolutely agree with that last comment. and yes, izzy was a very important factor in guns n' roses. i've always had a huge respect for izzy and that the band went downhill after he left can't be denied. now, i don't know enough about this to really speak too much about it, but while axl has expressed his disappointment and frustration with izzy leaving (him being both a childhood friend, co-founder and crucial to the band), i think axl doesn't really want to admit that izzy is what kept the band together, or was a large part of keeping the band together, musically at least. that could be some of the reason that they hit a dead end with their music when the world tour ended. again, i don't know this, i just assume, but that could be some of the reason.

[Eva GnRAxlRosette]

Has Axl ever referred to himself as a perfectionist?

(no... I'm not being sarcastic... I'm really asking. )

Yes he has.? jokingly, when asked about the lingering production of CD. Otherwise, I don't know.

Thank you for the reply.  I don't recall this.  If anyone can refresh my memory I'd like to read through or listen to the exchange that elicited this comment from Axl (even if it was jokingly.)

Thanks 

[ppbebe]

In my book, although talented, none of them is not essentially a music genius in the true sense of the word. Well Maybe Bucketheads is.
But Axl keeps at it. Otherwise his great guts, he has a genius for fronting a band, such as drawing out his band mates' latent abilities or charming the audience.

You don't need to be a music genius to make genuine rock music. What you need are hard work and  the band chemistry, a pause, then more hard work and further musical chemistry of your band. That's about it.


Eva, pleasure. I'll find one for ya.

[D]

Axl is very talented but I wouldnt call him a genius, Prince is a genius Axl is a good songwriter and singer but his piano skills are slightly above average, he cant really play guitar, cant drum,play bass.

U gotta realize something, Axl wrote the piano and lyrics for NR but u take away SLash's contribution and it is a great song but not as great

same with Estranged.

Axl isnt technically a musical genius cause he has to have others to help see his vision, he cant just grab a guitar and create what he is thinking of, he has to have other musicians.

Prince does it all by himself.

so if Prince is a musical genius, I cant really put Axl in that category because he certainly isnt on Prince's level

now as far as vocal and songwriting ability Axl is a genius.

[madagas]

Nice call on Prince....people like Miles Davis, Dylan, Hendrix. TRUE GENIUS. Axl, no way in hell. Writing some nice heartfelt lyrics and basic piano medley's does not a genius make. Even stretching it to the point where you can allege he directed Slash or whoever to write the appropriate guitar riff. True genius is self reliant-for the most part. Anyhow, I could spam this board with multiple examples of lyrical genius but I will start with just one:
?
 
Darkness at the break of noon
Shadows even the silver spoon
The handmade blade, the child's balloon
Eclipses both the sun and moon
To understand you know too soon
There is no sense in trying.

Pointed threats, they bluff with scorn
Suicide remarks are torn
From the fool's gold mouthpiece
The hollow horn plays wasted words
Proves to warn
That he not busy being born
Is busy dying.

Temptation's page flies out the door
You follow, find yourself at war
Watch waterfalls of pity roar
You feel to moan but unlike before
You discover
That you'd just be
One more person crying.

So don't fear if you hear
A foreign sound to your ear
It's alright, Ma, I'm only sighing.

As some warn victory, some downfall
Private reasons great or small
Can be seen in the eyes of those that call
To make all that should be killed to crawl
While others say don't hate nothing at all
Except hatred.

Disillusioned words like bullets bark
As human gods aim for their mark
Made everything from toy guns that spark
To flesh-colored Christs that glow in the dark
It's easy to see without looking too far
That not much
Is really sacred.

While preachers preach of evil fates
Teachers teach that knowledge waits
Can lead to hundred-dollar plates
Goodness hides behind its gates
But even the president of the United States
Sometimes must have
To stand naked.

An' though the rules of the road have been lodged
It's only people's games that you got to dodge
And it's alright, Ma, I can make it.

Advertising signs that con you
Into thinking you're the one
That can do what's never been done
That can win what's never been won
Meantime life outside goes on
All around you.

You lose yourself, you reappear
You suddenly find you got nothing to fear
Alone you stand with nobody near
When a trembling distant voice, unclear
Startles your sleeping ears to hear
That somebody thinks
They really found you.

A question in your nerves is lit
Yet you know there is no answer fit to satisfy
Insure you not to quit
To keep it in your mind and not forget
That it is not he or she or them or it
That you belong to.

Although the masters make the rules
For the wise men and the fools
I got nothing, Ma, to live up to.

For them that must obey authority
That they do not respect in any degree
Who despise their jobs, their destinies
Speak jealously of them that are free
Cultivate their flowers to be
Nothing more than something
They invest in.

While some on principles baptized
To strict party platform ties
Social clubs in drag disguise
Outsiders they can freely criticize
Tell nothing except who to idolize
And then say God bless him.

While one who sings with his tongue on fire
Gargles in the rat race choir
Bent out of shape from society's pliers
Cares not to come up any higher
But rather get you down in the hole
That he's in.

But I mean no harm nor put fault
On anyone that lives in a vault
But it's alright, Ma, if I can't please him.

Old lady judges watch people in pairs
Limited in sex, they dare
To push fake morals, insult and stare
While money doesn't talk, it swears
Obscenity, who really cares
Propaganda, all is phony.

While them that defend what they cannot see
With a killer's pride, security
It blows the minds most bitterly
For them that think death's honesty
Won't fall upon them naturally
Life sometimes
Must get lonely.

My eyes collide head-on with stuffed graveyards
False gods, I scuff
At pettiness which plays so rough
Walk upside-down inside handcuffs
Kick my legs to crash it off
Say okay, I have had enough
What else can you show me?

And if my thought-dreams could be seen
They'd probably put my head in a guillotine
But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only.
 
 

Now, read that about 20 times then write me a 5 paragraph essay on how that song, written 40 years ago, still applies to the world you are living in today. School's in boys and girls. ?

?

[Falcon]

True genius is self reliant-for the most part.

Couldn't agree more Madman.

About the only rock type these days I give that tag to is one Trent Reznor...

[madagas]

Yes, while I would not put Reznor in the same stratosphere with Davis or Hendrix or Dylan, he does fall on the level with Prince. Each can do it all and, the key, do it well. A tropical storm is landing on my house right now! 3-4 INCHES IN ABOUT 20 MINUTES.

[N.I.B]

Yes, while I would not put Reznor in the same stratosphere with Davis or Hendrix or Dylan, he does fall on the level with Prince. Each can do it all and, the key, do it well. A tropical storm is landing on my house right now! 3-4 INCHES IN ABOUT 20 MINUTES.

this cant possibly be karma for making us read that lyrical genious thing can it? 

[kathryn2662]

Hmm... well about the whole "genius" aspect, Im gonna have to totally and completely disagree.  Being a genius, doesnt get defined if you can pick up any instrument and magically create a wonderful sound, like Hendrix, as well as the others you mentioned.  What make someone a genius is when they can exude that other power through their music, even if the music itself isnt jaw-dropping perfect, it's about what is being exuded and what energy is being brought out, an that energy is from a place that the natural mind cant create, it's when you take your mind, and the eyes of your mind, into this other place that the mind in the natural can not experience or even touch, an when you bring that energy and power forth into whatever you are doing, is when the mind becomes genius.  I think that the most troubling, tramatizing, mental-frustation and breakdowns, is when you are genius that can not find tools, ability, and ways, to release that energy.   It's like painting a masterpiece in your head, an you try so hard with all your gut to release it, but when you try to find an outlet, it ends up a stick figure on a piece of paper- far short of societies call of genius.  But it's something, that when the genius see's it, they can see what is misunderstood, they see the sanity in their insanity, where as to others it's insanity an no method to the madness, it's just worthless trash to them. This is something you can feel, when you look into the persons eyes, when you feel their energy, or listen to them talk without actually listening to their words, when they talk- it's as if they go off in a dreamy state, an when they move- you can see it in their motions, an when they sing- it goes through you.  Genius, Axl Rose, totally.  Maybe he cant find an outlet to release it, through guitar, or bass, talent doesnt define a genius, genius defines talent.  Something can not make sense, but that object in itself suddenly makes sense, it becomes talent because of the genius, because of the energy that was brought to it, to where as if you look at- stripped down, it's just a mess.  His flaws, and imperfections, are put under a microscope, and so watched and critiqued, as any famous person, that it's so completely un-natural.  Ever find it hard to work when someones watching over your shoulder?  Telling you how to do it, what's wrong with it, and how you should have done it?  And in an artists defense, the thing I hate most, is when someone critiques and points out flaws in my work.  I hate it when people point out something they think isnt right for my picture, or ask in an condescending voice "why did you that?"  Maybe it's not the best thing on earth, but the feeling that comes out of me when Im going through the motions of drawing, is a beautiful feeling, the picture I see with my mind's eyes, not my physical eyes, is the most beautiful sight for words, but then if you take all that away- an just look at the crappy picture I drew- I can even see my picture sucks, but I dont look at it through normal eyes- I look at it through all that went into it, my mind's eyes that made that simple picture into a masterpiece, I look at what that picture is behind the lines, it may not LOOK like what was in my head but the experience/personality/and energy BEHIND the picture is the same.  Maybe the reason why genius's self destruct is they cant find an outlet, an when they do, it's not good enough.  You strive for perfection, they CAN be attained, but then someone comes along and tells you otherwise.  Self-reliant, well, unless you live in a world with only you being the planet, that will never be true.  Yeah, maybe other artists can preform alone, but the inspiration, motivation, thought, heart, direction, and drive, are from outside sources that brought them to that feeling an to that creativity and their outlet, that inspired their brains to explore in that other space.  If it wasnt for other people, relationships, oberserving human kind, the world, then it will never have made those people be who they were, those songs- feelings- the feelings that brought on the guitar solos an music, would have never been if it werent for outside sources.  There are different ways others can contribute to the work, whether it be by inspiration or experience, or help first-hand or help mentally.  This is something Im so passionate about, the mind of a genius.  I know I wrote a lot, an Im sure no one will read all this, but oh well, it's something I wanted to get out.  The very first post to this thread caught my eye, an I totally agree with what was written.  What draws me to Axl, is his mind out of the natural, you can just tell- you can feel it, that his mind goes into that other place, his energy is what makes his work art, what makes him a genius with all who he is, not just his work.  An I will defend that, an him till the day I die.  Kissing Axl's ass? yeah, anyday.

[kathryn2662]

an another thing to ad....

genius doesnt equal quick delivery.  Just because it has taken so long, doesnt mean someone isnt a genius.  Just because this isnt being done the world's way, doesnt take away from what it truely is.  I am thankful an glad it's taken this long, an that Axl is doing it his way, not the world's way.  Maybe in the fact in itself, that Axl walks a road different from the world, makes him a genius.

[August 18th]

an another thing to ad....

genius doesnt equal quick delivery.? Just because it has taken so long, doesnt mean someone isnt a genius.? Just because this isnt being done the world's way, doesnt take away from what it truely is.? I am thankful an glad it's taken this long, an that Axl is doing it his way, not the world's way.? Maybe in the fact in itself, that Axl walks a road different from the world, makes him a genius.

i totally agree, very well put.

[marknroses]

Recently i have become enamored with one of my DVD bootlegs of a GNR performance from 1986. I believe it is January 18th 1986 (I turned 4 years old on that day). One of the reasons why I like it so is because it is far from perfect. Even with Axl fucking up on the lyrics (he  had definitly been dancing before with Mr. Brownstone) and the band fucking up on melody sometimes, the songs on AFD were so great and the band was so good in quality of their playing regardless of the state that they were in (Slash could play great guitar on a lot of drugs) that it makes for an interesting and kick ass sound. I would hate it if all my old GNR shows sounded exactly the same because someone in the band determined that they had to make it perfect. Perfect may mean routine to some (practice makes perfect), but in the world of GNR 1986-1993, it meant a thing of beauty, of creation, watching the melody pick up, the lyrics get thrown down, the crowd slammin, or whether it was Axl changing the set list in the middle of a song, Duff getting hit in the nuts by a lighetr, Slash having his guitar get caught up in the crowd it didn;t matter how it was done. Whether it was perfect or not, the band always had each other's back and the fans knew they were getting the real thing.

I always tell my friends that the main reason why I love GNR so much is because they embody the "Human Spirit." The Spirit is never perfect, but for some reason, watching them in the varying states, there was always something to pick out different in the old GNR. the songs had their own life because they recorded them in varying states, in varying moods, but it was spontaneous, not something re-deconstructed and rereconstructed after many hours in from of a MAC/PC. They recorded UYI in a month (all the music - vocals tooks 6-8 more months), AFD was entirely created in 6-8 months. The mood was there for those songs then with the themes of struggle, the vices, the romance, the big city, the adventure of rising to the top. You can't perfect something in a mansion with nothing based on except a once glorious career gone dead.

Thats why I was very disappointed with the NU-GNR thing. The 2002 concert was a thing of routine - watching the same Axl moves, gestures, the band acting more lifeless than ex-GNR/VR members. If its any warning, it shows me that Axl would want to settle to something more routine if and when he ever decided to come back. Besides, Axl has lost his way folks. I have just explained that. This is not perfectionism at this point, this is procrastination. People who make excuses for the man make me sick.

BTW, Axl admitted to being a Perfectionist in the 1990 Kerrang interview (which btw Jarmo, WAS THE BEST INTERVIEW THAT AXL WAS EVER IN BUT YOU DIDN'T EVEN PUT THAT UP AS AN OPTION IN THE LAST POLL - sorry but I had to get on your case for that one). Read the article people, and you'll know who you are worshipping and waiting on.

MNR

[Eva GnRAxlRosette]

I was working on, like, writing these ballads that I feel have really rich tapestries and stuff, and making sure each note, in effect, is right. Cos whether I?m using a lot of instrumentation and stuff or not, I?ll still write with minimalism. But it has to be right; it has to be the right note and it has to be held the right way, and it has to have the right effect, do you know what I mean?

K : I didn?t know you were such a perfectionist.

A : What people don?t understand is there was a perfectionist attitude to ?Appetite..?. There was a definite plan to that....

this the part you're re talking about MNR...

I don't feel that wanting something to be right is being a perfectionist.

and I find his reference to a 'perfectionist attitude", as he describes the making of AFD, to mean deliberate...

but thanks for the reference

I'm wondering if there is anything regarding the making of CD or any comment from Axl in recent years regarding making the album perfect or of him describing himself as  perfectionist....   seeing how it's a trait that seems to be so often and prevalently applied to him - especially in regards to the forthcoming album



and RocketQueen I really enjoyed your posts.   

[kathryn2662]

perfection means not settling for just anything, it means going for what you want, going for the gusto and never settle for less. i won't go into details but i can tell you that because i have put certain restrains on myself, waiting things out and sacrifizing offers from other for the sake of "perfecting" things to get my dream girl, i now just might get her. ?i could've had others in that long period of time i have been waiting for her, but thanx to the fact that i have been patient and selective when it comes to girls i can now feel very good about not just settling for random girls, but getting what i want as a result of my personal sacrifices.

That's a view I strongly agree on. ?Something I have been so adiment on learning, and understanding, is to never settle. ?To know that there is always more and better out there, an you DO have the ability and choice to get it. ?Once you get to where you want, dont settle, or you will fall backwards or become idle, go for more- an always move forward. ?Never be satisfied, always move forward and grow. ?It's funny that you put that into relationship aspect, because it's something I do as well. ?I dont believe in "dating" unless you know it's the person you are supposed to spend the rest of your life with. ?Dont settle for someone who isnt "the one", that "dream" person is out there, an sacrafice always has rewards. ?I have huge "dreams" on the man I want, an I wont settle till I get him, even if it takes me my whole life. When you have no doubts, expect the world, believe in the impossible, an know that you and your life is limitless, it's hard to settle or less. ?Perfection, may never be litterly attained, but we were made in the image of Perfection, ?always to desire perfection and going after perfection with faith you will grab hold and become it- is to me genius. ?Maybe some of us are confusing perfection with satisfaction, that may be, but both- even if it's impossible, should be treated as if it were possible. ?Im what you would call a "perfectionist", an I find the times Im most content, is when something hasnt become perfection to me- but it has become satisfaction upon me. ?You work till you feel satisfied, an I think that is what feels "perfect". ?You go till your goals get met, you never stop till you feel you have reached what you deserve, an when you get there- you realize, there is more and better out there, an you go after it- because you know you have the ability and power to not only go after it- but get it. ?You have some good views, that attitude will get you far. ?You dont have to create new to be a genius, your choices and philosophy, and wisdom make you a genius as well. ?It doesnt take a special person to do extraordinary things. ?It's about average people, moving in supernatural power, knowing truth. ?It's interesting looking at "perfection" in this way. ? You're makin me think haha

[August 18th]

perfection means not settling for just anything, it means going for what you want, going for the gusto and never settle for less. i won't go into details but i can tell you that because i have put certain restrains on myself, waiting things out and sacrifizing offers from other for the sake of "perfecting" things to get my dream girl, i now just might get her. ?i could've had others in that long period of time i have been waiting for her, but thanx to the fact that i have been patient and selective when it comes to girls i can now feel very good about not just settling for random girls, but getting what i want as a result of my personal sacrifices.

That's a view I strongly agree on. ?Something I have been so adiment on learning, and understanding, is to never settle. ?To know that there is always more and better out there, an you DO have the ability and choice to get it. ?Once you get to where you want, dont settle, or you will fall backwards or become idle, go for more- an always move forward. ?Never be satisfied, always move forward and grow. ?It's funny that you put that into relationship aspect, because it's something I do as well. ?I dont believe in "dating" unless you know it's the person you are supposed to spend the rest of your life with. ?Dont settle for someone who isnt "the one", that "dream" person is out there, an sacrafice always has rewards. ?I have huge "dreams" on the man I want, an I wont settle till I get him, even if it takes me my whole life. When you have no doubts, expect the world, believe in the impossible, an know that you and your life is limitless, it's hard to settle or less. ?Perfection, may never be litterly attained, but we were made in the image of Perfection, ?always to desire perfection and going after perfection with faith you will grab hold and become it- is to me genius. ?Maybe some of us are confusing perfection with satisfaction, that may be, but both- even if it's impossible, should be treated as if it were possible. ?Im what you would call a "perfectionist", an I find the times Im most content, is when something hasnt become perfection to me- but it has become satisfaction upon me. ?You work till you feel satisfied, an I think that is what feels "perfect". ?You go till your goals get met, you never stop till you feel you have reached what you deserve, an when you get there- you realize, there is more and better out there, an you go after it- because you know you have the ability and power to not only go after it- but get it. ?You have some good views, that attitude will get you far. ?You dont have to create new to be a genius, your choices and philosophy, and wisdom make you a genius as well. ?It doesnt take a special person to do extraordinary things. ?It's about average people, moving in supernatural power, knowing truth. ?It's interesting looking at "perfection" in this way. ? You're makin me think haha

haha why thank you, i'm glad we agree on the subject
but yeah i consider myself a perfectionist in some ways myself.
it's cool to know that you share my views. genius is your state of mind in alot of ways. the way you think and what you do with it.

[kathryn2662]

thanks Eva

[kathryn2662]

genius is your state of mind in alot of ways. the way you think and what you do with it.

EXACTLY!!!!  And I think the biggest point to that, above all, is 'and what you do with it.'  I think it's the state of mind, in all ways.  One might be a genius through their work, but it was their state of mind that brought them to that work.  Bringing up the mind, I study the mind, disorders and such, since I have upon many disorders derived from epilepsy,  to which the kind I have is sister disorders with schizophrenia and bi polar disorder, an I have studied the link between those diseases with genius.  It interests me, an no surprise, when I read that Axl is bi-polar 'manic-depressive'.  It's amazing through all the people the world has labled genius, the majority have had epilepsy or bi-polar or some mental disease.  An I know it's from the mind being taken out of the natural state, an given ability to experience and see things a normal brain cant.  It'd be interesting to talk to Axl about his mental states, an what he experiences, that above anything is what I would love to talk to him most about.

[jameslofton29]

marknroses, GREAT fucking post!! Wonderful description of the band. Hopefully everyone here reads it. You are definitely right about the band sounding different every night. A show that each of us went to was truly a once in a lifetime experience, because the same show didnt happen twice. There was a bootleg I had many years ago, it was a show from 1987, and it was unlike any GNR concert I've ever heard. You could hear Izzy and Duff singing over Axl. Maybe Axl was really stoned or something, but Izzy and Duff were definitely carrying the load. I cant even imagine being in that crowd, because they had to know it was something they would never witness again. I seen them in July 1991, and they performed a reggae version of Civil War, and it was chilling. I've never heard the band do this again, and a bootleg of the show I seen has yet to surface. GNR was truly a once in a lifetime event. Because when you showed up at the arena, anything was possible.

[August 18th]

kathryn, yeah i know what you mean, this is completely off topic but a few years back a friend of mine told me that i might be manic-depressive, and i even did some research about it, but i never got it diagnosed, and i think i manage fine, i just have alot of down periods. but absolutely, one of the reasons why i can relate so much to axl is because i often find myself in the same mental state that he expresses through his songs, especially his lyrics, in songs like estranged and coma, but also in songs like "it's so easy". it all depends on my mood, but i've always seen alot of myself in axl, even when i was 7 years old i could somehow relate to his anger, loneliness and "i don't give a fuck" attitude. it just developed, and i take alot of pride in having that mind-set.

[August 18th]

marknroses, GREAT fucking post!! Wonderful description of the band. Hopefully everyone here reads it. You are definitely right about the band sounding different every night. A show that each of us went to was truly a once in a lifetime experience, because the same show didnt happen twice. There was a bootleg I had many years ago, it was a show from 1987, and it was unlike any GNR concert I've ever heard. You could hear Izzy and Duff singing over Axl. Maybe Axl was really stoned or something, but Izzy and Duff were definitely carrying the load. I cant even imagine being in that crowd, because they had to know it was something they would never witness again. I seen them in July 1991, and they performed a reggae version of Civil War, and it was chilling. I've never heard the band do this again, and a bootleg of the show I seen has yet to surface. GNR was truly a once in a lifetime event. Because when you showed up at the arena, anything was possible.

a reggae version of civil war?
well that would be very interesting to hear. i'm sure it can work out somehow, the chorus might work.